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jmarkwolf
01-06-2013, 01:55 PM
Saw this phrase in the description of some of the mills in the new 2013 Grizzly catalog.

Does this mean we can expect better quality control now, or is there is some loophole?

danlb
01-06-2013, 02:11 PM
There are always loopholes. It's a standard for quality control.

Here's the loophole; Which is better, A bowl of cereal that is ISO 9001 certified to have fewer than 100 rat turds per bushel, or a bowl of cereal that has been stored from field to container in an environment that is rigorously patrolled for vermin with appropriate measures to keep them away from the grain, packaging, etc?

Quality control is a way of ensuring that your targets are set. You can set targets pretty low.


Dan

kf2qd
01-06-2013, 02:15 PM
No - it just means that all procedures are documented. Doesn't mean they do a better job, they just know how they do a crappy job.

ISO9001 does provide some tools that can help with quality, but if the procedure is to produce manure, then manure you will get.

Also - the documents can be vague or very specific. Depends on what they want out of the ISO9001 certification.

Quality still comes down to the guys designing, and the guy building caring about what they do and doing a good job. Can have teh best design, but if the guy putting it together doesn't care it will be crap.

Jaakko Fagerlund
01-06-2013, 02:57 PM
"Made in blablabla" - as in, assembled there, actually made there, designed there, some % at least made there or what? Depends totally on the country what it can mean, as I remember for example that some countries allow to use that phrase when 30 % of the product is actually made there.

J Tiers
01-06-2013, 03:03 PM
"Made in blablabla" - as in, assembled there, actually made there, designed there, some % at least made there or what? Depends totally on the country what it can mean, as I remember for example that some countries allow to use that phrase when 30 % of the product is actually made there.

Which in this instance means "do they require their suppliers to be ISO also?".

if not, then the ISO biznai is not nearly so relevant.

ISO is as ISO does...... if your procedure calls for applying a precise mass of hammer at a specified velocity to each piece of crystal stemware, then there is a chance it can be ISO and result in product that would not pass the most elementary customer Q/A procedure.

If that procedure is simply to assess the pitch of tone produced, and does not break the glass, that may be another matter.....

Mcgyver
01-06-2013, 03:55 PM
as others have said, it doesn't determine where the bar is set, only that there are processes etc to keep things at the bar.

Also realize that it really matters who is making the claim. If its say Apple claiming their owned plant in China is iso 9001 I believe it. If its a local Chinese business claiming to be ISO 9001, it probably just means they heard that claiming it to be so and buying a banner can get you more business. If its a local Chinese business under the close scrutiny of the western business customer/'partner', it means they adhere to there iso 9001 protocols for up to 3 days after the last inspector got on a plane out of there

KiddZimaHater
01-06-2013, 04:24 PM
ISO 9000 doesnt mean diddly squat these days.
I worked for a company that went thru 2 years of ISO Certification and training.
They FINALLY got ISO-9000 Certified after their third try, and NOTHING CHANGED on the shop floor.
The only changes were on paper.
Documentation, copies of copies, record keeping, paper trails, etc. were the only changes.
Part production, crappy machines, bad tooling, and scrap/rework parts remained the same as before.
ISO 9000 is a big joke in my opinion.
ISO does not mean QUALITY. It only means 'Record keeping'.

J Tiers
01-06-2013, 05:24 PM
ISO 9000 doesnt mean diddly squat these days.
I worked for a company that went thru 2 years of ISO Certification and training.
They FINALLY got ISO-9000 Certified after their third try, and NOTHING CHANGED on the shop floor.
The only changes were on paper.
Documentation, copies of copies, record keeping, paper trails, etc. were the only changes.
Part production, crappy machines, bad tooling, and scrap/rework parts remained the same as before.
ISO 9000 is a big joke in my opinion.
ISO does not mean QUALITY. It only means 'Record keeping'.

Supposedly, if the paper says to do "X", the inspectors are supposed to see if you do "X" or settle for "Y" when the chips are down..... You seem to be saying that inspection/assessment is lacking..... Outside assessment I mean....

You ought to see what the government MIL inspectors are like..... they look at EVERYTHING if you are new to them, and they don't necessarily trust you yet. After that they spot check.

Mcgyver
01-06-2013, 05:35 PM
ISO 9000 doesnt mean diddly squat these days.
I worked for a company that went thru 2 years of ISO Certification and training.
They FINALLY got ISO-9000 Certified after their third try, and NOTHING CHANGED on the shop floor.
The only changes were on paper.
Documentation, copies of copies, record keeping, paper trails, etc. were the only changes.
Part production, crappy machines, bad tooling, and scrap/rework parts remained the same as before.
ISO 9000 is a big joke in my opinion.
ISO does not mean QUALITY. It only means 'Record keeping'.

right, but what if you had a plant with the best machines, best trained works, best suppliers, best designs etc etc etc.....and no recording keeping, reporting, procedure, documentation etc.

I agree ISO is way over the top in a lot of cases, but you need both good QA process and the physical stuff to consistently put out the products to the standard you intend. Also, its as much for your customers as anything else. An OEM scrutinizing a vendor likes that there are systems to implement the process QA agreed upon.

Dr Stan
01-06-2013, 05:47 PM
My first degree was in QA and my primary professor studied under both Deming & Juran. I have also taught QA & lean manufacturing.

What others have said that ISO 9000 is nothing but an accounting procedure are dead on. All it means is that you are following your standard operating procedures and documenting them. If you say you're making junk, you make junk, and you properly document that you make junk you are in compliance. Its no surprise to me Griz has machines made in an ISO certified factory, just keep in mind the Yugo factory could have become ISO 9000 certified and still made some of the crappiest cars in history.

QS 9000 however is a different animal. The automakers who hold their suppliers to its standards assure themselves they will be supplied with quality products. If not, the supplier looses the certification and it is much harder to obtain than ISO 9000.

SGW
01-06-2013, 07:28 PM
I was a technical writer in a previous life. At one point I had to write ISO9000 procedures documents. IMO the whole exercise was a complete waste of my time. The only people who would ever pay any attention to what I was writing would be the ISO inspectors, if and when the company ever applied for certification. My time would have been used to much better advantage if I had instead worked on the user documentation for our products.

Grind Hard
01-06-2013, 09:31 PM
Liger Zero and I have both experienced ISO at different companies.

In both cases, the decision was made to ISO certify, and it was determined that procedures had to be created.

These procedures were created by office people observing various tasks and creating their interpretation of what we were doing. They created quality guidelines and all sorts of documentations, process, procedure, rules, and regulations.

In both cases, scrap soared. Output dropped. Accidents increased. In his case, he left for another less butt-hole job. In my case, we simply told the owner to sit on an endmill and spin.


I'm assuming there are cases where ISO can be a good thing... however my experience was very negative.

mike4
01-07-2013, 12:05 AM
The only thing about ISO is you can trace a problem back to a proceedure and hopefully find a butt to kick < (in theory anyhow).
From working with certified companies I have found it to just increase the paperwork and not really benefit the repair process.
Michael

MotorradMike
01-07-2013, 07:23 AM
Looks like absolutely EVERYONE agrees!

Something wrong there.

Grind Hard
01-07-2013, 07:41 AM
ISO 9000 is a tool used by management to make management look good. It is rarely implemented in a way to benefit the shop floor, and in many cases hinders shop floor operations. I know how to sharpen a punch for my turret. I've been doing over a decade... I don't need some office person establishing a procedure, enforcing said procedure then telling me I can't change said procedure when I prove that this procedure results in ruined tooling.

:D At that point I simply ignored the ISO crap and did the job the right way. So did everyone else. ISO lasted all of two days past the certification and was not renewed.

fjk
01-07-2013, 08:40 AM
I agree that ISO 9000 is "less than useful".

But the _theory_ is that you are making and wish to continue making "good products", so by documenting the process to make your "good products", and then rigorously following that documented process, you should always make "good products" and if a "bad product" ever popped out, then it must be because either a) you didn't follow the One True Path To Enlightenment, um, er, I mean ISO-9000-documented-process or b) your process is inherently not good for making "good products". The reality is often different ... or as an academic whom I have great respect for once said to me "In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they are not"

At a previous employer, we had to get TL9000 certified (TL9000 is/was a modified version of ISO9000 used by telecoms equipment manufacturers that in theory is tailored to their specific needs). One of our Officially Blessed Procedures was how to report a dead light bulb in one's office.

Frank

Jaakko Fagerlund
01-07-2013, 08:52 AM
One of our Officially Blessed Procedures was how to report a dead light bulb in one's office.
Lemmeguess - fill out Incident Occurrence Form A1, Notification of a Dead Light Bulb form B54 and send paper copies to archive, janitor and upper management so that they can adjust to the new circumstances. Oh and remember to fill also an Archiving Notification document and a copy of that...for the archives, of course!

chevy3755
01-07-2013, 11:30 AM
i got the new catalog also and being retaird fro the printing business....that is that wouls be a very expensive catalog to print, gold embossed.....a couple pounds of weight......wow.......ok im done now

KiddZimaHater
01-07-2013, 12:36 PM
Lemmeguess - fill out Incident Occurrence Form A1, Notification of a Dead Light Bulb form B54 and send paper copies to archive, janitor and upper management so that they can adjust to the new circumstances. Oh and remember to fill also an Archiving Notification document and a copy of that...for the archives, of course!
And dont forget, to file the 'dead lightbulb incident report' away for SEVEN YEARS, in case it needs to be retrieved.

danlb
01-07-2013, 01:35 PM
Here's the thought process, backed by many studies and real life experience.

Documentation is a step towards adding structure to a process. Structure leads to repeatable processes and procedures. Repeatable procedures lead to improving the process. Improved processes can be more accurate and have consistently fewer flaws. Documentation = better products.

Where it pays off is when you have a team who are good at what they do who are willing to share their way of doing things, and are willing to adopt a process that is just marginally better than the way they like to do it.

But it seldom works that way. Everyone knows that they are doing things the right way, otherwise they would not be doing it like that.


Dan

Grind Hard
01-07-2013, 02:37 PM
The breakdown for us happened over who was writing the procedure. The ISO Coach we hired spewed a bunch of *hit over "having people with an outside perspective write the procedures." The second step of that was to involve the worker(s) in tuning the procedure so it reflected "actual reality" and was written wide enough to allow for variations in technique. We didn't do that part. Joan from the office (for example) would watch me sharpen tools, write what she thought was happening and hand me a procedure to follow. We actually fired a person because the photo in the procedure showed someone holding the part in her right hand and turning the screw with a blue flathead screwdriver in her left hand. Person who was fired held the part in the left hand, turned with the right hand and used a clear-handled flathead. That person was hired back a couple days later after a mini-revolt on the shop floor.

The ISO Coach also stressed that these were living documents, able to be altered and changed as processes, procedures and techniques changed. In our reality, the documents were Word Of God and not to be altered, and often referred to when new ideas were presented. 'Can't do that ISO won't let us.' That's bullshi* plain and simple, it wasn't ISO stopping us but our own lazy inability to change a couple of documents.

Like I said, this lasted two days beyond the certification date, then we basically chucked everything in the bins and went back to business as usual. The then-owner couldn't stop us, not like he's going to fire 100+ decades-skilled metal-workers and start over. :)

M.I. Twice
01-07-2013, 02:49 PM
jmarkwolf
ISO9001 is say what you do, and do what you say.
M.I. Twice

Mcgyver
01-07-2013, 03:45 PM
We actually fired a person because the photo in the procedure showed someone holding the part in her right hand and turning the screw with a blue flathead screwdriver in her left hand. Person who was fired held the part in the left hand, turned with the right hand and used a clear-handled flathead.

unbelievable. it does raise the question though, is it the ISO_____ idea/intent that is the problem or just incredibly idiotic implementations by imbeciles that's the problem. I say get rid of the imbeciles :)

oldtiffie
01-07-2013, 04:53 PM
QA - quality assurance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_assurance

QC - quality control:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_control

TQM- total quality management:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_quality_management

platypus2020
01-07-2013, 06:17 PM
I work for a couple of ISO certified companies, what ISO gave us was repeatability, it ensured the crap we built in April was identical to the crap we built in December and any other month. What we did good always was good, what we did that was questionable was always questionable, if we made that part wrong, it was alway wrong, but was interchangeable the wrongly made part we would send you as a replacement.

It made upgrades or corrections hard, because it either would or could violate written procedures, the last thing management wanted.

Grind Hard
01-07-2013, 07:55 PM
unbelievable. it does raise the question though, is it the ISO_____ idea/intent that is the problem or just incredibly idiotic implementations by imbeciles that's the problem. I say get rid of the imbeciles :)

ISO 9000 is not the problem.

It's the way it is implemented that causes issues.

Platypus2020 hit the nail on the head. With some management-teams once you made a procedure or process you can't change it or deviate from it... because "ISO won't let you."

Bull. It's because you ether left out the Living Document aspect of the program or are too lazy to highlight a block of text in Word, make a couple of changes and print out a new copy and sign it.

vincemulhollon
01-08-2013, 08:06 AM
It's because you ether left out the Living Document aspect of the program or are too lazy to highlight a block of text in Word, make a couple of changes and print out a new copy and sign it.

LOL I worked at a place a very long time ago where they had procedures to change procedures, and every gold brick and Retired In Place and micromanager and blowhard and clown who liked hearing himself speak formed into a synergistic change management steering committee that only met quarterly for an hour (or whatever it was, this was quite awhile ago) and no one on the floor had the political power to make any suggestion important enough to rise to the committee minimum requirements, due to their limited available time. Needless to say that place is out of business. Its not the only thing that destroyed them, but a company circling the bowl will grasp at any straw on the way down the drain.

Management fads are kind of like politics at least by the quantity of lives ruined / wasted not to mention the level of financial destruction.

Dr Stan
01-08-2013, 08:25 AM
Management fads are kind of like politics at least by the quantity of lives ruined / wasted not to mention the level of financial destruction.

When ISO 9000 is treated as a fad it is worse than useless. Unfortunately this is the way our bean counting MBA grads view their roles and respond accordingly. If, and that's a big if, we actually followed Deming's rules everyone would be better off, all the stakeholders employees, management & owners alike. However, the bean counters also used quality assurance as just another fad. :mad:

fjk
01-08-2013, 09:28 AM
unbelievable. it does raise the question though, is it the ISO_____ idea/intent that is the problem or just incredibly idiotic implementations by imbeciles that's the problem. I say get rid of the imbeciles :)

Besides what the others have said... The imbeciles could be one's customers. Where I was where we did the TL9000 implementation, our customers absolutely demanded that we do TL9000 and do it rigorously. Our management tried to get them to change, or at least ease, their demands. No dice, so they now have "Light Bulb Failure, Officially Blessed Procedure For Reporting Of". We couldn't walk away from the customers as the telecoms market has a fairly small number of significant customers and we'd have gone out of business if we told them to go pound sand.

The customers have enough power that they demanded, and received, the ability to conduct their own audits and inspections, check documentation and databases, even the ability to occasionally walk around and ask programmers "show me your TL9000 mojo"

And yes, that company is still in business and doing fairly well, afaik.

Frank