PDA

View Full Version : Guns, Gun Laws, 3D Printing, And You.



Grind Hard
01-16-2013, 04:20 AM
This is not a debate about the law that NY passed. I am not here to debate that and I ask that you respect my request to not discuss or debate it here in this thread. It will go out of control.

Instead I am here with a public safety announcement, both Liger Zero and I are behind this.



Folks, a word of caution regarding the new anti-gun measures in place here in NY.

I get that you are angry, I am too. The law is pure knee-jerk reactionary feel-good foolishness that is totally unenforceable, and it WILL be shot down by the courts.

Many of you are looking at 3D printing as a means to modify your gun in a reversible manner. Ok, I understand your desire to keep your weapons and maintain ammo capacity.

As experts in 3D printing, especially the fused-layer extrusion printing that all home-printing processes use... We are warning you that the materials and processes are NOT UP TO THE TASK. USING HOME MADE 3D PRINTED PLASTIC COMPONENTS IN A GUN IS DANGEROUS AND IRRESPONSIBLE.

I do not care what the videos on Youtube and other sites show. I am telling you right now that you are increasing the danger to yourself and others around you by many orders of magnitude if you attempt to 3D print plastic workarounds.

Don't do it, and don't ask me to help you do it. The answer is no.

If you are intent on modding your weapon to comply with the law, and wish to do so in a way that can be bypassed when the laws are restored to sanity, consult a master gunsmith who works metal. Your safety and the safety of others depends on it."



Please get the word out there before someone blows themselves or someone else a new one using 3D printed nonsense they downloaded from "The Net."

Black_Moons
01-16-2013, 05:20 AM
Ammo capacity? You mean like.. the plastic (removable) plugs they stick in shotgun tubes to limit capacity to comply with local regulations?

I don't see how a plastic plug siting in a magazine is going to blow anyone up, Reguardless how it is made or out of what.

I also don't see how laws that require removable plastic plugs stops criminals from... removing them.

More regulations made by people who don't live in reality or even bother to ask questions of those who still do live in reality, Joy.

Grind Hard
01-16-2013, 06:56 AM
The requests go beyond plugs. Modifications to the mechanism and structure of the gun itself to get around real or imagined imposed restrictions.

Things that a gunsmith should be involved in, not some maker-hacker with a spool of PLA and a copy of Sketchup.

adnbr
01-16-2013, 07:09 AM
Ammo capacity? You mean like.. the plastic (removable) plugs they stick in shotgun tubes to limit capacity to comply with local regulations?

I don't see how a plastic plug siting in a magazine is going to blow anyone up, Reguardless how it is made or out of what.

I'm no expert in the matter, nor even American but I think the 3D printed parts the original post is talking about are something more like this 3D printed AR-15 magazine (http://hackaday.com/2013/01/15/print-your-own-30-round-ar15-magazine/) than a plug for an existing one. I think I read a while ago that they made a lower receiver for the same gun.

MotorradMike
01-16-2013, 08:00 AM
At this point anything required to take pressure will likely result in a Darwin award.
I don't think we should be interfering with evolution.

Eventually, anything will be safe to print 3D.

Dr Stan
01-16-2013, 08:15 AM
Grind Hard you're right on target, its unsafe as h#ll. I really don't worry about those who would do such a foolish thing, but those in the immediate vicinity who could/would be injured. There is also the issue of those left behind without the financial, emotional, etc support that they would no longer have.

Doing this would be right along the lines of using an old 55 gallon drum as an air compressor tank. :eek:

Grind Hard
01-16-2013, 08:40 AM
Clips, receivers, even chambers. I have 300 emails requesting printed clips and mod-kits... people are sending me drawings OMG MAKE THIS FOR ME BEFORE THE GUMMERMENT TAKE ME GUHNS AWAY!!! HOW MUCH TO PRINT 10,000 OF THEM AND SHIP THEM FED EX.

No ^*&(ing joke.

All this is going to do is kill the fledgeling 3D Printing industry, as the media doesn't differentiate between a receiver, a clip or a chamber... to them it's all "MAGIC PRINTING MACHINE PRODUCES ENTIRE BABY-MURDERING HYPER-ASSAULT WEAPON AT THE PUSH OF A BUTTON FOR FREE." Once this hits the mainstream media (days at best, hours at worst) we're looking at legislation to restrict ownership of printers.

Nevermind the fact I can produce far better "stuff" on my POS-BP.... which is NOT regulated. Hell we have a member of this very forum making parts for the explosives industry on a salvaged Van Dorn. No regulation THERE, either.

Gun-hackers are going to screw up 3D printing BIG time before the dust settles.

lazlo
01-16-2013, 09:27 AM
How is "3D printing as a means to modify your gun in a reversible manner" different from machining a mag spacer from a block of aluminum or plastic??

Besides, you're screwed with the new New York law -- any one feature (bayonet lug, flash hider, ...) now makes it an "assault rifle" according to New York law, so an M1 Garand (with a bayonet lug) is now on the "restricted weapons" list that must be separately registered.

achtanelion
01-16-2013, 09:28 AM
Up here in Canada the major legally compliant method to restrict a magazine is:



Pop rivets.


You should reply to all these people offering a magazine restriction device and application tool for $75. Plus S&H, of course.

J

Grind Hard
01-16-2013, 09:39 AM
How is "3D printing as a means to modify your gun in a reversible manner" different from machining a mag spacer from a block of aluminum or plastic??

Besides, you're screwed with the new New York law -- any one feature (bayonet lug, flash hider, ...) now makes it an "assault rifle" according to New York law, so an M1 Garand (with a bayonet lug) is now on the "restricted weapons" list that must be separately registered.

People see this as a new technology, therefore not regulated, therefore a perfectly legit and acceptable loophole. One asshole I've been trading emails with tells me "it's not manufacturing it's printing. it is illegal to manufacture these but not illegal to print them. you have to know how to understand WORDS, man." Nevermind illegal to posses them... that's not even an issue in his mind.

Either this person is an idiot on a grand scale or a law-enforcement agent out fishing.

fjk
01-16-2013, 10:11 AM
Once this hits the mainstream media (days at best, hours at worst)...

You're too late, probably by months...

I saw a CSI:NY a week or so ago on On-Demand (originally broadcast back in November, IIRC) that involved a 3d-printed-gun. I won't tell the full story in case someone wants to see the show without spoiling it ... PM me if you want the spoilers.

Frank

Grind Hard
01-16-2013, 10:33 AM
Yeah BUT we've had two extreme cases of mass-violence since that aired.

Now laws are in place here in NY State and pending elsewhere, and "how to break the law with your makerbot" videos are popping up all over youtube.

Sitting there reporting them for TOS violations/illegal activity is a full-time job in itself.



You're too late, probably by months...

I saw a CSI:NY a week or so ago on On-Demand (originally broadcast back in November, IIRC) that involved a 3d-printed-gun. I won't tell the full story in case someone wants to see the show without spoiling it ... PM me if you want the spoilers.

Frank

lost_cause
01-16-2013, 10:40 AM
i admit i didn't go out and try to find or read the newly passed law, but i did read a blurb posted by some media source. what i got out of it was that they were reducing maximum magazine capacities from 10 to 7, and that weapons with more than one of these "assault/deadly/military" features could not be sold new. existing weapons could be transferred to immediate family, but past that required permits/paperwork.

if those are the truths about it, i'm trying to figure out why people would need parts to convert them (other than magazine plugs, assuming that is legitimate - i would assume that they would put in some sort of clause requiring permanent modification to reduce capacity if they had a brain amongst the lawmakers). if they already own the weapons then they don't need to modify them. am i mistaken, or is there something else to the law that i'm not seeing?

lazlo
01-16-2013, 10:54 AM
People see this as a new technology, therefore not regulated, therefore a perfectly legit and acceptable loophole. One asshole I've been trading emails with tells me "it's not manufacturing it's printing. it is illegal to manufacture these but not illegal to print them.

The BATFE doesn't care if you cast, carve, weld, bend, print, or machine firearms. It's still manufacturing.

I'd say "idiot on a grand scale" is pretty apt.

Just Bob Again
01-16-2013, 10:55 AM
For the moment, at least, it Federal laws still allow you to make firearms for your personal use and not for resale. Without the proper licenses it is not legal to make them for another person. Certain kinds of items and certain states have further restrictions. There are some good discussions of this on the Gunsmithing forum.

However, Federal law does not hinder anyone from being an absolute idiot and many take advantage of this 'loophole'. There are many things which would be unwise to make on a 3-D printer. Speaking of which, I do actually need to make a 3-D printer to make prototype plastic boxes for electronics. So, I'd better go do some research.

lazlo
01-16-2013, 11:01 AM
they were reducing maximum magazine capacities from 10 to 7, and that weapons with more than one of these "assault/deadly/military" features could not be sold new. existing weapons could be transferred to immediate family, but past that required permits/paperwork.

if they already own the weapons then they don't need to modify them. am i mistaken, or is there something else to the law that i'm not seeing?

Correct, except if your firearm qualifies with one of the military weapon features, you have to register it in a state "NFA-Like" registry system.

JoeBean
01-16-2013, 11:02 AM
Over on slashdot.org, a technology news aggragator for those who aren't familiar, this "print your own gun with a makerbot" thing has been coming up about twice a month for quite a while. But even those without much understanding of guns beyond what they see on TV usually quickly figure out that DIY making of a gun entirely out of plastic won't fly, and making gun parts out of plastic is dangerous and/or illegal.

But frankly I'd gladly pay to watch idiots fire their 3d printed 1911. I think that might be the first bit of reality TV I'd enjoy. Heck, I'd probably even be willing to buy a few of them makerbots just for the entertainment value alone.

etard
01-16-2013, 01:08 PM
So let's say I want to print my own weapon, presumably an AR15. Realistically, there are a few parts that can be printed and safely used on the gun, but these are parts that can be easily found at gun shows and shops anyway. Specifically, we are talking about the lower receiver here. I believe that in less than 5 years 3D printers will be able to print out some sort of carbon metal matrix that will be as good or better than 6061, when this happens, all these laws and discussions will be null and void. For now it is possible to beef up the buffer tube ring to reinforce it enough for a couple uses, which will be enough for any suicide shooter to get through a session of insanity.

IMO, the sale of barrels will be the future of regulation, I would stock up on these if I had the cash....

Mike Amick
01-16-2013, 02:35 PM
All this is going to do is kill the fledgeling 3D Printing industry, as the media doesn't differentiate between a receiver, a clip or a chamber... to them it's all "MAGIC PRINTING MACHINE PRODUCES ENTIRE BABY-MURDERING HYPER-ASSAULT WEAPON AT THE PUSH OF A BUTTON FOR FREE." Once this hits the mainstream media (days at best, hours at worst) we're looking at legislation to restrict ownership of printers.



I see a LOT of spin and scare tactics on both sides ... its ridiculous. I don't have a dog in the
fight and actually support both sides of the argument.

But I suspect Grind Hard is wrong about it hurting the Printer industry. I bet they are ordering
them (printers) off the hook. And restrictions will be ...

" you are in trouble if you make a suppressor ( silencer ) on your printer " ...

THEY SAME WAY YOU ARE IF YOU MAKE IT ON YOUR LATHE.

** I know that's not the best example because of the heat and pressure .. but
** you get my drift

Carld
01-16-2013, 03:03 PM
I know very little about the 3D copying process but I would imagine that it will only take a few guns built and fired made from the current process and plastics for users to be killed in the process of firing the gun. Word will get around, even among those thinking of trying it.

loose nut
01-16-2013, 06:27 PM
I haven't heard , in detail, (doesn't affect me) what the new laws are but as stated it is definitely a knee jerk reaction.

How can you tell.

There wasn't any action like this taken when the other 12000 gun murder victims happened last year and now there is. The two events that took place were definitely horrible but society shouldn't paint everybody that owns a gun as a mad dog killer. Guns don't kill people, the $%^&*1up crazy bastard that pulls the trigger kills people. If someone wants a gun they will have one someway or another.

SteveF
01-16-2013, 06:30 PM
..............
Word will get around, even among those thinking of trying it.

Along with word getting around that someone has a friend who knows a guy who tried it and it works just fine. :)

Steve

macona
01-16-2013, 06:39 PM
I haven't heard , in detail, (doesn't affect me) what the new laws are but as stated it is definitely a knee jerk reaction.

How can you tell.

There wasn't any action like this taken when the other 12000 gun murder victims happened last year and now there is. The two events that took place were definitely horrible but society shouldn't paint everybody that owns a gun as a mad dog killer. Guns don't kill people, the $%^&*1up crazy bastard that pulls the trigger kills people. If someone wants a gun they will have one someway or another.

The biggest issue I have with the NY law is the requirement to register them with the state. Umm. I dont think so...

That and trying to push the blame on video games. What a load of BS, many studies have been done in the past and they have never found a link between the two. Penn and Teller had a pretty good episode about that one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9gVO6Hgj38

loose nut
01-16-2013, 06:47 PM
The biggest issue I have with the NY law is the requirement to register them with the state. Umm. I dont think so...

]


They did that in Canada years ago (it included pellet guns and crossbows too). Complete failure. The estimate of the number of long guns that were here was between 12 and 16 million depending on who said it. 3.5 million (approximately) were registered, the rest "disappeared". Two billion dollars wasted and the law was repealed last years, a complete waste of time and money. It was a knee jerk reaction also.

Grind Hard
01-16-2013, 06:47 PM
Uh, can we steer back to the technical side of the issue and avoid the politics... at least in this thread?

Thanks!

lazlo
01-16-2013, 07:38 PM
And restrictions will be ...

" you are in trouble if you make a suppressor ( silencer ) on your printer " ...

THEY SAME WAY YOU ARE IF YOU MAKE IT ON YOUR LATHE.

Exactly. BATF doesn't care how you make the part, they care about what you build.

I've seen AR lowers carved from wood, machined from an UHMW cutting board (seriously), and you can buy off-the-shelf plastic lowers.

vpt
01-16-2013, 07:49 PM
Didn't myth busters build a cannon from duct tape?

lost_cause
01-16-2013, 08:14 PM
i'm still not understanding what the big panic is about i guess... if you're getting mails asking for mass quantities of a part then it could only be a lower receiver, which is already illegal unless you are a licensed manufacturer. everything else would still be a legal part i would think. i can't imagine anyone wanting mass volumes of any other part anyways.

if someone wants to buy mass quantities of an illegally made part, then why the rush now? why not just do them in a month or year, or whenever? are they concerned and thinking that the government will be outlawing rapid prototype machines next month?

Boostinjdm
01-16-2013, 09:24 PM
I think I would be working on mag followers with a tang on the bottom to reduce capacity if that would meet the laws requirements. You could sell 1000's of them.

wierdscience
01-16-2013, 10:57 PM
The horse is already out of the barn so far as rapid protoype machines.Besides that we are all sitting behind what the various governments of the world consider the deadliest weapon-a Computer connected to the Internet.

vpt
01-17-2013, 08:23 AM
The horse is already out of the barn so far as rapid protoype machines.Besides that we are all sitting behind what the various governments of the world consider the deadliest weapon-a Computer connected to the Internet.



Hit all the right buttons and anyone could start the end of the world. The internet is dangerous, we should ban it.

Mcgyver
01-17-2013, 09:12 AM
That and trying to push the blame on video games. What a load of BS, many studies have been done in the past and they have never found a link between the two. Penn and Teller had a pretty good episode about that one:


yeah and look how it took to 'prove' the dangers of smoking despite how obvious and common sense it is. Proof is elusive. To me it seems unrealistic to think the extreme violence, bloodbaths and mayhem presented in video games don't desensitize to some degree. It has to affect; its how the mind works. Input effects it. Perhaps it can't be accurately measured (like most psychological forces in society), perhaps it varies greatly person to person and perhaps it can't be proven....but subjecting people to radically different stimulus (kids playing Miami vice vs watching leave it beaver) has an effect on the mind.

The mind is affected by the stimulus it receives, both first hand and second.

Carld
01-17-2013, 10:08 AM
After reading four pages about using a 3D printer to make gun parts the truth all boils down to the fact that manufacturing many of the gun parts is regulated now. With that in mind only a fool would accept a job of making a part that is regulated and only a fool would ask a shop to make those parts.

I don't believe the shops that make parts with a 3D printer have much to worry about, unless they start making illegal parts. As long as you stay legal no one will bother you. Step across the line and you know what will happen. I think it's also against the Patent law to manufacture patented parts for which your not licensed to do. Are 3D shops doing that now, isn't that a violation?

radkins
01-17-2013, 11:02 AM
It's kind of hard to reply to this thread and completely avoid politics and I have no intention of making a political statement or complaint, JMO on how the 3D printers may be affected. The powers-that-be will, again JMO, do the usual and go after the guns by passing laws severely restricting or even outright banning the manufacture of guns or gun parts except by licensed individuals or manufacturers. I fear home building of even classic firearms will soon be a thing of the past due to unfounded fear and ignorance but I doubt it will directly impact 3D printers, after all if they make it illegal to build a gun no one would do it right?

Wirecutter
01-17-2013, 01:22 PM
Well, I did a quick search and found this:



University of Texas law student Cody Wilson, the 24-year-old "Wiki Weapons" project leader, says the group last month test fired a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle -- one of the weapon types used in the Connecticut elementary school massacre -- which was built with some key parts created on a 3D printer. The gun was fired six times before it broke.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/12/21/click-print-shoot-guns-made-on-3-d-printers-not-as-farfetched-idea-as-it-sounds/#ixzz2IG2c12Vn



(emphasis added)

Usual disclaimers, no affiliation, don't try this at home, keep hands and feet inside the vehicle, etc.

IMHO, this just reinforces the old adage: Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Darwin comes to mind again. I wonder exactly what "key parts" were plastic.

-M

Grind Hard
01-17-2013, 01:43 PM
Receiver, magazine, certain parts of the internal works, all furnishings.

AFAIK the chamber and barrel were stock.

wierdscience
01-17-2013, 02:01 PM
Hit all the right buttons and anyone could start the end of the world. The internet is dangerous, we should ban it.

No,not really,but various government have controls over the Internet and want more control including our own-

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/news/internetprivacy/2011-02-15-kill-switch_N.htm

lazlo
01-17-2013, 02:28 PM
Well, I did a quick search and found this:

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/12/21/click-print-shoot-guns-made-on-3-d-printers-not-as-farfetched-idea-as-it-sounds/#ixzz2IG2c12Vn

"University of Texas law student Cody Wilson, the 24-year-old "Wiki Weapons" project leader, says the group last month test fired a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle -- one of the weapon types used in the Connecticut elementary school massacre -- which was built with some key parts created on a 3D printer. The gun was fired six times before it broke. "

Like usual, the Mass Media got it wrong: it's just an AR lower, and he's using a mega-buck Stratasys 3D printer. All he did was take the cad model for the AR lower (at CNC Guns), and print it on the Stratasys. But the lower just holds the magazines and the fire control group -- you're not going to build an upper or a bolt carrier with fused nylon.

http://defensedistributed.com/products/

http://defensedistributed.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/ARlower4_display_small-300x225.jpg

Mcgyver
01-17-2013, 02:55 PM
various government have controls over the Internet and want more control including our own-

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/news/internetprivacy/2011-02-15-kill-switch_N.htm

wow....and from the last gun related thread several (many?) believe a gun law defines the black and white difference between freedom and oppression. Amazing. I'm not sure if we're as bad off here but there sure seems like a lot of oppression going on....freedom? whats that? well I guess i can still have a BM with licence, fee or permit.

ptjw7uk
01-17-2013, 03:16 PM
Not sure I fully understand how gun law stops anything.
Hand guns are banned in the UK but there are enough around to kill the many that are still killed by them.
Some people will believe that making something illegal will stop will stop it!
Perhaps more education will help!

Peter

lazlo
01-17-2013, 03:18 PM
No,not really,but various government have controls over the Internet and want more control including our own-
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/news/internetprivacy/2011-02-15-kill-switch_N.htm

That article, and the (Bi-partisan) proposal was from 2011. It wasn't a power grab, it was an (admittedly poorly thought-out) attempt to deal with a coordinated hacker attack, like Stuxnet. It was a proposed component of the Cybersecurity Act of 2012. It was dropped.

Computer virus switches off US power plant
(http://www.itpro.co.uk/645127/computer-virus-switches-off-us-power-plant)

gwilson
01-17-2013, 05:47 PM
Am I getting senile,or weren't PISTOLS used in Connecticut. And,wasn't the long gun left in the car trunk a shotgun?

oxford
01-17-2013, 06:19 PM
Perhaps more education will help!

You can't fix stupid.

Dr Stan
01-17-2013, 06:33 PM
Am I getting senile,or weren't PISTOLS used in Connecticut. And,wasn't the long gun left in the car trunk a shotgun?

It was a Bushmaster .223. Here's the article: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/17/this-gun-kill-kids-and-reaps-profits.html

A 9mm Glock with a 33 round clip was used to shoot Gabby Giffords and 18 others of which 6 were fatal.

loose nut
01-17-2013, 06:38 PM
(kids playing Miami vice vs watching leave it beaver).

Your right, watching "Leave it to Beaver" could drive anyone to murder.

lazlo
01-17-2013, 06:59 PM
It was a Bushmaster .223. Here's the article: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/17/this-gun-kill-kids-and-reaps-profits.html

It was a Bushmaster AR15 in all three incidents: Aurora, Newtown and the Spengler firefighter shootings. Some seriously bad karma about the Bushmaster that's attracting all the loonies.

By the way, don't say 'clip' -- it pisses off gun guys worse than 'billet' pisses off cranky old machinists. It's a magazine (which you obviously know, since you're a Vietnam Vet) :)

aametalmaster
01-17-2013, 07:10 PM
There was no AR-15 used in Newtown just 4 handguns. That was complete bull so Odummer can get his assult bill passed...Bob
http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495#50208495

CCWKen
01-17-2013, 07:35 PM
It would make more sense to go after criminals than trying to control guns. All they have to do is start executing more criminals and make any felony with a firearm an automatic and mandatory death penalty. Problem solved. Sooner than later, we'll run out of criminals and we can get back to collecting our guns without the left-wing fanatic tree huggers taking the easy way out.

If the legislators were interested in saving children, as they claim, they could save more by taking drunk drivers off the road for good and stop killing babies. Drunk drivers and abortions kill more children each year than all other crimes combined including atrocities of war. Their interest is not to save children but to re-write the Constitution.

Mike Amick
01-17-2013, 08:19 PM
hmmm I don't hear you crying because you can't own a machine gun. come on man ! .. their holding
you down. Many states already have the restrictions proposed. Constitutionally tested and maintained.

And just for the record .. They are NOT trying to take any of your guns .. NOT ONE. They are just
saying .. it will be illegal for future sales of assault weapons. If you have one .. no problem .. keep it.

And they are saying that nation wide .. they would like to know a little more about you .. instead of
walking in and plopping down cash and walking out with a gun. Like you can in some states ... damn them !!!!!!

Ohhh .. and if your at the range or hunting or defending your self against those darn liberals .. you will
have to hit your target with the first 10 shots .. before reloading. Oh .. and btw .. if you already
have a 30 round magazine .. its ok .. they are not even suggesting you turn THEM in.

I swear .. you guys cages are so easily rattled.

lazlo
01-17-2013, 08:23 PM
There was no AR-15 used in Newtown just 4 handguns. That was complete bull so Odummer can get his assult bill passed...[/url]

That's incorrect. Lanza used a Bushmaster, a Glock 10mm, and a Sig 9mm. If you don't believe it, The Freedom Group sold Remington/Bushmaster the day after the shooting, because of intense pressure from investors.

Dr Stan
01-17-2013, 08:31 PM
By the way, don't say 'clip' -- it pisses off gun guys worse than 'billet' pisses off cranky old machinists. It's a magazine (which you obviously know, since you're a Vietnam Vet) :)

You are 100% correct

Dr Stan
01-17-2013, 08:35 PM
There was no AR-15 used in Newtown just 4 handguns. That was complete bull so Odummer can get his assult bill passed...Bob
http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495#50208495

You're just trying to push your agenda. The video link you posted is dated Dec 15, 2012 and contained preliminary information. It's now a month later and we know without a doubt the Bushmaster/AR15 was used in the murders in Newton. Shame on you. :mad: