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jcaldwell
01-16-2013, 04:33 PM
I read the thread from a few years ago regarding way oils. For those who believed in them, the concensus seemed to be that Mobil Vacuoline was the choice, with an Enco product, Tru-Edge, about the same. I don't find either of these at Enco any more.

These and Mobil Vactra 2, which Enco does carry, are supposed to be ISO 68 rated oils. When I search for Mobil Vacuoline, I find Vacuoline 1405, which is listed as "ISO VG 32 hydraulic and way lubricant". That doesn't seem to be what the old thread described. It said the Vactra 2 was a reformulation of a previous product with less additive for adhesion to the ways. The thread said it wasn't as good as the older formulation, and that Vacuoline was nearly the same as the old formula.

So.... What does everyone (who uses way oil) actually use?

And, in a similar note, what does everyone use for spindle oil? Enco has Mobil Velocite No. 10 and No. 6. No. 10 is "medium" and No. 6 is "light". I have absolutely no clue as to which one is better.

For that matter, I have no clue about oils other than Mobil, since it was mentioned a lot in the old thread, and it seems to be the only one carried by Enco.

I'm pretty much committed to getting some lubricant "made for ways and spindles", as opposed to making my own concoction or using chain saw oil. I'd appreciate guidance from you folks on what works best.

Thanks,

JC

jcaldwell
01-16-2013, 04:39 PM
Just went back to the old thread and found that Mobil Vacuoline 1409 is the old formula Vactra, with the "tacifiers" in it. So far, I've only found 1409 in 5 gallon buckets, which I couldn't use up if I lived to 100 and drank it every night.

JC

Jon Heron
01-16-2013, 04:58 PM
Does this mean that the 5w30 I have been using on the ways is totally inappropriate? :o
Any chance you could post the link to the original thread that your referencing?
Cheers,
Jon

Mcgyver
01-16-2013, 05:04 PM
Does this mean that the 5w30 I have been using on the ways is totally inappropriate?

New or used?

jcaldwell
01-16-2013, 05:22 PM
Does this mean that the 5w30 I have been using on the ways is totally inappropriate? :o
Any chance you could post the link to the original thread that your referencing?
Cheers,
Jon

I found the original thread by searching Google for "way oil". This may get you there: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/25179-The-Wonders-of-Way-Oil

Jaakko Fagerlund
01-16-2013, 05:34 PM
We've been using Hydrex 32 (hydraulic oil) for spindle/gear boxes, works very good with the gears as it pumps around easily, doesn't foam and is suitable to high pressures (between gears).

The way oil I don't remember right now, made by Petro Canada and was something-68 or similar...not at work now, so can't check.

Ohio Mike
01-16-2013, 07:03 PM
I'm using Vactra #2. Lots other good way lubes out there but Vactra is so easy to get and inexpensive.

Ohio Mike
01-16-2013, 07:30 PM
Enco has Mobil Velocite No. 10 and No. 6. No. 10 is "medium" and No. 6 is "light". I have absolutely no clue as to which one is better.

I think we need to backup a bit here. First off all they're both great spindle lubricants but they are different weights. Mobil Velocite No 6 (Light Spindle Oil) is ISO VG 10 whereas Velocite No 10 (Medium Spindle Oil) is ISO VG 22. Which is better depends on what machine your putting it into. Bearing construction, spindle speed, and machine function will all impact what is best. Kind of like asking a Honda Accord owner what engine oil is best for your 250 HP John Deere tractor. The little Honda will require something like 5w20 and that Deere will call for 15w40 or similar. Some machines don't even call for spindle oil, many gear head lathes actually call for hydraulic or "circulating" oils like Mobils DTE named series. The same applies to way lubes but you'll find a very large number of manufacturers call for ISO-68.

vpt
01-16-2013, 07:33 PM
Bar and chain on the ways and sae30 in the bushings and bearings.

Jon Heron
01-16-2013, 08:46 PM
New or used?
Only new, it just happens to be whats in my oil can so thats what I have been using on the ways. I use a fine electric motor oil (not sure the viscosity, the typical zoom spout type servicemen use) for the spindle lube points. I never really gave it a second thought to tell the truth :rolleyes:
Thanks JC.
Bar oil eh Andy? I have lots of that, is that a better bet then 5w30?
Cheers,
Jon

J. Randall
01-16-2013, 10:26 PM
Only new, it just happens to be whats in my oil can so thats what I have been using on the ways. I use a fine electric motor oil (not sure the viscosity, the typical zoom spout type servicemen use) for the spindle lube points. I never really gave it a second thought to tell the truth :rolleyes:
Thanks JC.
Bar oil eh Andy? I have lots of that, is that a better bet then 5w30?
Cheers,
Jon

Jon, any oil is better than no oil, bar oil does have similar tackifiers to way oil and will stay on the way surfaces better, if that is all you have.
James

lakeside53
01-17-2013, 12:52 AM
Bar oil is "bottom of the barrel" garbage. Up to a couple of years ago top brands were virgin oils and had Paratac as the tackifier. Today it's all recycled re-refined oils and god only knows what they add for "stickyness". Not on my lathe today...

Frank46
01-17-2013, 01:57 AM
My jet uses mobile dte medium heavy in the gearbox. Frank

laddy
01-17-2013, 07:30 AM
A few years ago I asked and old retired machinist friend th same question. He said for the hobby machinist and any machine that is not brand new almost any oil is better tahn none, as J. randallsaid. I have used what is handy as mentioned earlier and have not seen any problems. From the best to the worst seems ok.

EVguru
01-17-2013, 07:57 AM
Proper way oil has a couple of additional features compared to a plain lubricating oil.

Tackifiers so it will cling to a vertical surface and not simply drain away. This is more important for a milling machine that a lathe, there aren't too many vertical slide surfaces on a lathe.

Anti stiction (stick - slip) properties. Can you turn your feed dial a fraction of one marking and actually have the machine take a tiny cut? If the machine is in otherwise good condition and you can't, then you should probably invest in some way oil. If you have 'the touch' the difference in feel is quite noticable and makes all sorts of machining easier and/or quicker.

I've known people operate a lathe all day and not notice the saddle lock is still on, so way oil would be a waste for them.

vpt
01-17-2013, 08:05 AM
Only new, it just happens to be whats in my oil can so thats what I have been using on the ways. I use a fine electric motor oil (not sure the viscosity, the typical zoom spout type servicemen use) for the spindle lube points. I never really gave it a second thought to tell the truth :rolleyes:
Thanks JC.
Bar oil eh Andy? I have lots of that, is that a better bet then 5w30?
Cheers,
Jon


Yup, cheap, easy to get, works great.

See, there they are, sae30 (ND) and timber bar and chain oil. Red oil can marked bearings gets the sae, and the blue can is for the bar and chain oil.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2326/lathedrawers003.jpg

Mcgyver
01-17-2013, 08:20 AM
Tackifiers so it will cling to a vertical surface and not simply drain away. This is more important for a milling machine that a lathe, there aren't too many vertical slide surfaces on a lathe.
.

imo it is important for a lathe. While not vertical, I want to oil to cling to the slanted surfaces of V ways and dovetails

garagemark
01-17-2013, 09:09 AM
See post #9.

And I say BS to bar and chain oil being "junk". No, it probably isn't going to mars on the rover, but it is thick and clean and has tackifiers. It will certainly slide a couple of pieces of iron against one another at a sloth-like pace without damage.

But that's just me.

J. Randall
01-17-2013, 03:55 PM
See post #9.

And I say BS to bar and chain oil being "junk". No, it probably isn't going to mars on the rover, but it is thick and clean and has tackifiers. It will certainly slide a couple of pieces of iron against one another at a sloth-like pace without damage.

But that's just me.

Yeah, sounded like an awful broad statement to me too, a quick google showed that Bailey's Motion Lotion, and Husqvarna's bar oils are still made from good stuff. I did not go any farther, but I suspect most of the better branded stuff is still made from good base stock. Now if you only shop at the big box stores then you are probably going to get the junk stuff, and I would not use that stuff on my chainsaw either.
James

Black_Moons
01-17-2013, 04:00 PM
I noticed the diffrence between way oil and hydraulic oil on my ways right away. My tailstock would actualy slide after I pushed it, instead of just grinding to a hault the instant I let go

goose
01-17-2013, 04:06 PM
Chain bar oil. It’s junk. Recommending it as “it does the same thing as way oil” is making an excuse for laziness, or cheapness.

I put chain bar oil on my lathe ways once. A couple minutes after trying to move the carriage back in forth in that gummy molasses/syrup slime, I couldn’t wipe that garbage off fast enough. Doesn’t look the same as way oil, doesn’t smell the same, doesn’t behave the same.

Mobil Vactra 2 is what to use.

Mcgyver
01-17-2013, 05:04 PM
And I say BS to bar and chain oil being "junk". No, it probably isn't going to mars on the rover, but it is thick and clean and has tackifiers. It will certainly slide a couple of pieces of iron against one another at a sloth-like pace without damage.

.

you make a good point, as lubrication goes it seems an undemanding environment. And we're all subject to marketing BS with these products whose benefits are not easily spotted in the short term. otoh, the anecdotes like 'used it for years without a problem' doesn't cut it either. Even if that person was able to quantify wear there is not way they could say whether it would have been or less with brand name way oil.

5 gallons lasts very long time. How much more is it for Vactra than chain oil? Spread over the lifetime (at least) it'll last I'd think it not worth finding out the chain oil wasn't up to snuff.

jcaldwell
01-17-2013, 06:40 PM
I think we need to backup a bit here. First off all they're both great spindle lubricants but they are different weights. Mobil Velocite No 6 (Light Spindle Oil) is ISO VG 10 whereas Velocite No 10 (Medium Spindle Oil) is ISO VG 22. Which is better depends on what machine your putting it into. Bearing construction, spindle speed, and machine function will all impact what is best. Kind of like asking a Honda Accord owner what engine oil is best for your 250 HP John Deere tractor. The little Honda will require something like 5w20 and that Deere will call for 15w40 or similar. Some machines don't even call for spindle oil, many gear head lathes actually call for hydraulic or "circulating" oils like Mobils DTE named series. The same applies to way lubes but you'll find a very large number of manufacturers call for ISO-68.

I am lookiing for lube for a used milling machine I am buying. I saw that most recommend the Vactra 2 for the ways, even though the current formulation doesn't have the tacifers that the old mixture had. The question about Spindle Oil was originally for the mill, though I guess it might apply to a lathe (?). I doubt I'll be running the mill all that much or that hard. Would the light oil be a good choice, then?

JC

lakeside53
01-17-2013, 08:31 PM
I typically No 6 if I'm working above 4K rpm, and No 10 below.


As for the bar oil crowd -go buy the right stuff - many choices; it's about the same price as the bar oil crap.

If "thick and clean" was the only criteria, heck, I'll just buy mine at Safeway on the shelf beside the pet food ;) As for tackifiers - the reason Stihl dropped Paratac a couple of years ago is that it was just too expensive with few perceived benefits (as viewed from the consumer). What they (and pretty much everyone else in the saw industry) now add is a thick Napthenic oil - basically a petroeum wax. Bailey's even has the same Cas # for both the tackifer and the base oil, with "base" being 90 to 100% (or sometimes zero "tackifier")! Also, bar oil bases vary - some are napthenic and other are paraffinic. Totally different characteristic over temperature ranges. I trust my way oil manf has figured out what is best for machine tools.

Vactra - from Mobil's web site. What does the bar oil claim? How's your stick slip?

Controlled Frictional Characteristics - Helps eliminate stick slip; allows consistently accurate machining
Multi-material Capabilities - Suitable for a wide range of way material combinations allowing for product consolidation
Water and Aqueous Coolant Separability - Helps improve the life and performance of many aqueous coolants
Adhesiveness - Prevents removal of lubricant from critical surfaces
Long Term Rust and Corrosion Protection - Helps reduce the deterioration of sliding surfaces in the presence of water and aqueous coolants



Vactra MSDS - No reportable chemicals... Chain oil MSDS - 2 or more reportable.

firbikrhd1
01-17-2013, 10:52 PM
All bar and chain oil isn't created equal. I bought some from Wally World a while back that has very little tacifier in it and is quite thin in comparison to other bar/chain oils I've used. There are winter and summer bar/chain oils as well as some vegetable based ones for the environmentalist types.
All that aside, even if way oil cost is double or triple that of bar and chain oil I view it as cheap insurance on an accurate and expensive piece of machinery. When one thinks about how little is required to do the job it is very inexpensive to use the proper lubrication.

garagemark
01-18-2013, 09:48 AM
Discussing lubricants on a forum like this is tantamount to discussing politics or religion. People are passionate about their oil, and I suppose that's OK. I do take exception to blanket statements, especially since they usually have few facts to back them up. To call all "bar" oils inferior for a given use cannot be substantiated. You may wish it to be so and theorize it, but it is not a true statement.

That said, I also speak as a hobbyist. My lathe and mill do NOT take a beating day in and day out. And though I want the sliding surfaces to last forever, they might do so even dry (OK, so maybe that's a little extreme). But for the AVERAGE garage hobbyist, professional grade oils may be overkill, and hard to get, and expensive. I see no reason to buy five gallons of anything, let alone way oil. A couple bucks for a quart of decent brand bar oil, and I'm on my way for a few months or so. And I'll lay big odds that I will experience no appreciable wear to my sliding surfaces.

For those of you who use the sheet out of your machines, maybe good grade way lube is your ticket, but so is better grade tooling, along with heftier machines and bigger horsepower. But it's not the same for everyone, so blanket statements just don't work.

bborr01
01-18-2013, 10:00 AM
Vactra #2 for my ways. The plant that I worked at used it and we had acres of machinery with ways. Good enough for them, good enough for me. I bought a gallon at PTS and it will probably last me a decade or more, for around $30 as I recall.

Brian

Rosco-P
01-18-2013, 10:48 AM
That said, I also speak as a hobbyist. My lathe and mill do NOT take a beating day in and day out. And though I want the sliding surfaces to last forever, they might do so even dry (OK, so maybe that's a little extreme). But for the AVERAGE garage hobbyist, professional grade oils may be overkill, and hard to get, and expensive. I see no reason to buy five gallons of anything, let alone way oil.

Hobbyist/Tinkerer/Prototyper/Machinist/whaterever, with way oil available from Enco, MSC, McMasterCarr, Graingers or your local lubrication dealer in gallon jugs, why substitute something else? Overkill? Too Expensive? If a $30 gallon lasts you a year, thats 10 cents a day. Maybe you're in the wrong hobby or you should give up using inserted carbide tooling.

goose
01-18-2013, 11:10 AM
Hobbyist/Tinkerer/Prototyper/Machinist/whaterever, with way oil available from Enco, MSC, McMasterCarr, Graingers or your local lubrication dealer in gallon jugs, why substitute something else? Overkill? Too Expensive? If a $30 gallon lasts you a year, thats 10 cents a day. Maybe you're in the wrong hobby or you should give up using inserted carbide tooling.

On sale for $18.00 a gallon at Enco right now. I'm still on my first gallon I bought over 8 years ago.

bborr01
01-18-2013, 11:11 AM
Hobbyist/Tinkerer/Prototyper/Machinist/whaterever, with way oil available from Enco, MSC, McMasterCarr, Graingers or your local lubrication dealer in gallon jugs, why substitute something else? Overkill? Too Expensive? If a $30 gallon lasts you a year, thats 10 cents a day. Maybe you're in the wrong hobby or you should give up using inserted carbide tooling.

Agreed,

I just did a quick search and you can get vactra 2 in quarts and pints for 11.95 and 4.95 respectively, ????. Probably from different suppliers. Even if I just had a 7X10 lathe or similar size hobby mill, I would get the right lube for it.

Brian

lazlo
01-18-2013, 11:18 AM
you make a good point, as lubrication goes it seems an undemanding environment. And we're all subject to marketing BS with these products whose benefits are not easily spotted in the short term. otoh, the anecdotes like 'used it for years without a problem' doesn't cut it either.

All these oils from a good company will have good base stocks. What we're talking about is the "add package" -- the additives that are added to make way oil, or hydraulic oil, or gear oil...

Chain lube obviously has a ton of tackifiers -- probably more than you want for machine ways, but for the home shop it probably doesn't matter. You really don't want detergent oil (like motor oil) for machinery, since the detergents are meant to hold contaminants in suspension so the filter can strain them out. That's the equivalent of lapping paste for machinery.

When you can buy a gallon of true way oil from Enco for $12 with free shipping, it seems hard to justify substitutes.

JCHannum
01-18-2013, 11:54 AM
These way oil threads all end up the same.

Way oil is purpose designed to be used on sliding surfaces. While it includes tackifiers and other additives common to other lubricants, its main purpose is to promote sliding and eliminate stick slip. That's it in a nutshell. It achieves this purpose better than any other common lubricant and there is no reason not to use it. It is no more expensive or hard to obtain than any other lubricant, and a gallon will last the average HSM forever.

It is still a lubricant when all is said and done, and is used and specified in other applications. It is an excellent open gear lube and is recommended by many machine manufacturers for use in their gearboxes where the weight is appropriate.

I have tried the other alternates, motor oil and bar oil and there is a marked difference. I have substituted way oil for bar oil, but would not go the other way around.

tlfamm
01-18-2013, 12:46 PM
@JCHannum

"Way oil is purpose designed to be used on sliding surfaces."

I noticed in another thread that Grizzly is specifying Vactra 2 in the QC gearbox and the apron of one of its lathes:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/57609-Seeking-Opinions-on-new-Grizzly-lathe

Is that an appropriate use of "way" oil?

JCHannum
01-18-2013, 01:00 PM
Is that an appropriate use of "way" oil?

Why would it not be?

As I pointed out, many machine manufacturers reccomend its use in gearboxes. Not only Grizzly, but Monarch and others use way oil in various gearboxes as well as the aprons of their lathes.

garagemark
01-18-2013, 01:04 PM
If there is only one way, why do these threads even exist?

And R-P, read that whole post; don't pick out one or two lines. I put a nice disclaimer in there for your point of view. But if I must, I'll put a dime in a cup every day until I get thirty bucks added up. In other words... You have no idea what I can afford and what I can't. A lot of folks scrape hard to make their hobby (any hobby) a reality. Twenty or thirty dollars may be the difference in buying enough steel for a project, or buying nothing this month. Two bucks can be a hellufalot easier to find than thirty. If a fella has to have a certain amount of money to be in this hobby, how much does he need to meet your criterion?

Barrington
01-18-2013, 01:09 PM
When I first started out I used motor oil on the ways and leadscrews of my RF30 clone. I didn't know any better and just thought that was how the handles should feel.

When I later changed to a proper way oil (Castrol BD68) it was a revelation. Immediately everything moved so much more smoothly and with far less effort. It completely transformed the feel of the machine.

Best value for money 'upgrade' I ever bought.

Cheers

.

Mcgyver
01-18-2013, 01:18 PM
If there is only one way, why do these threads even exist?


The skeptics dictionairy, a compendeum of psydeuscience and human beliefs for which there is not a shred of evidence is 448 pages long and covers hundreds of entries. To paraphrase Carl Sagan, the number of people who believe these fantasy's outnumbers those who understand how an airplane stays in the air by a huge margins. 1000:1? more?

That a number of humans believe something isn't remotely reason for it being real or justified

EVguru
01-18-2013, 01:34 PM
When I first started out I used motor oil on the ways and leadscrews of my RF30 clone. I didn't know any better and just thought that was how the handles should feel.

When I later changed to a proper way oil (Castrol BD68) it was a revelation. Immediately everything moved so much more smoothly and with far less effort. It completely transformed the feel of the machine.

Some people could operate dry, with spit, used sump oil, or smegma and really wouldn't notice the difference in feel compared to a way oil.

Rosco-P
01-18-2013, 01:43 PM
If there is only one way, why do these threads even exist?

And R-P, read that whole post; don't pick out one or two lines. I put a nice disclaimer in there for your point of view. But if I must, I'll put a dime in a cup every day until I get thirty bucks added up. In other words... You have no idea what I can afford and what I can't. A lot of folks scrape hard to make their hobby (any hobby) a reality. Twenty or thirty dollars may be the difference in buying enough steel for a project, or buying nothing this month. Two bucks can be a hellufalot easier to find than thirty. If a fella has to have a certain amount of money to be in this hobby, how much does he need to meet your criterion?

No, sometimes there is some two or more right ways to accomplish the same thing. In the case of way oil, I doubt that is true. As another poster pointed out, from Enco way oil is $12 a gallon, not the $30 figure that I tossed out as a worst case price. Right tool or product for the job or work at hand. Would you use wood chisel for a cutting tool on your metal lathe because it was cheap and handy?

I did read your entire post.
Where did I say anything about a fella having to have a certain amount of money for metalworking?

garagemark
01-18-2013, 01:49 PM
Don't confuse skepticism with simply a different idea. I don't think anyone has denied that using the "right" stuff would or could be better. But I'll wager that there is no evidence to support that a particular machine has been prematurely destroyed by using a VIABLE alternative. And don't confuse viable with outrageous. If I substitute water for way oil, well....

I know an old (OK, really old) guy who used STP for way oil, probably since the goo was invented. When he recently retired, his machines were auctioned, and all of them still looked pretty damned good, other than what you would expect for a thirty year old machine. But again, your results may vary.

But in the spirit of this debate, I shall purchase a quantity of the "right" stuff for ways. And, though this thread will be long gone, I will either revive it or start anew with what I think. You may not care, but you could have a convert on your hands as well. Then I'm sure certain members will relish an "I told you so" moment.

I have thick skin. I'm old.


Too Expensive? If a $30 gallon lasts you a year, thats 10 cents a day. Maybe you're in the wrong hobby or you should give up using inserted carbide tooling.

JCHannum
01-18-2013, 02:17 PM
I don't think anyone has said that not using way oil would lead to the destruction of or even damage to a lathe. It won't, that is not its purpose. What it will do is make your machine perform much better than any of the common alternates.

STP might perform the in the same manner, I have no information one way or the other, but it is not an economical alternate to way oil.

uncle pete
01-18-2013, 02:21 PM
It would be nice to see someone who has many years of experience like Forrest or Richard King post their thoughts on slideway lubrication since I'd bet they've seen and rebuilt machines where the proper way lube wasn't used. Fwiw? I can only use my own experience. Proper way oil was like night and day from the "any oil is good enough" idea I was using. And it was more than enough of a difference that I'd certainly make a point of buying more if I ever run out of the 5 gallons I bought because of where I live, and that's the minimum I could get. But to be honest, if you've never tried a proper way oil? Then just exactly how would you know if it's worth using or not? Just how many here have tried it and then gone back to the idea of any oil is good enough? Proper lubrication is a science, and it is a hell of a lot more involved than formulating some snake oil concoction with a fancy name that will be believed and then ordered through an infomercial on late night tv.

I hate to admit to it but I will. I burned up a $700 plus Emco motor one time from using a heavy weight gear lube I thought I was "much better" than the factory recommendations. It caused enough drag on the power feed that a long day using it caused the magic smoke problem. So I just don't bother and can't afford to try to second guess lubrication anymore. Proper and lot's of lubrication is dirt cheap in comparison to anything else you can name even from a home shop perspective. My personal thoughts about way lube also got a severe re-adjustment after reading the Machine Tool Reconditioning book.

Pete

Mcgyver
01-18-2013, 03:06 PM
It would be nice to see someone who has many years of experience like Forrest or Richard King post their thoughts on slideway lubrication since I'd bet they've seen and rebuilt machines where the proper way lube wasn't used.

Problem is, how would they know? Because the problems take time, maybe decades, to become obvious, unless there were incredibly detailed and reliable log books included both the use of the lathe and lubrication there is not concrete way to say how much the lathe was used, this was the lubricant, it was or wasn't applied frequently enough etc.

With the ones I've had apart, what is obvious is auto lub bearing surfaces, where the lines are not blocked are usually in great shape. Same for things in an oil bath. Where disaster strikes is the bearing surfaces not autolubed (where the operator is supposed to lube them) or bearings where a line is plugged.

I think Jim is probably right, with a clean oil in sufficient quantities to create the 'wedge', they will prevent wear. The tackifiers help keep it place. I understand stiction, and how a good way oil is supposed to minimize it. I'm less clear though why you'd not want it any oil to minimize it...however perhaps its expensive and other machines don't require positional accuracy or maybe it can't take the heat in other environments.

as for use on QCGB etc, if these are models without a sump and pump, maybe its ability to cling is the reason?

Mcgyver
01-18-2013, 03:26 PM
Don't confuse skepticism with simply a different idea. I don't think anyone has denied that using the "right" stuff would or could be better. But I'll wager that there is no evidence to support that a particular machine has been prematurely destroyed by using a VIABLE alternative. And don't confuse viable with outrageous. If I substitute water for way oil, well....


I don't think your views are at all unreasonable ....just making the point that if 50% say A and 50% say B, there is as good a chance 1/2 are just plain wrong vs there being two ways to do things. Or could be 90/10....and could be the 10% who are right. Its amazing the strong opinions people will have on subjects they little about so this mixed bag result we often get doesn't mean much. One has to look for the credible voice on the subject....any tribology experts out there?

Pending that I think some good points have been made in favour of way oil and erring on the side of caution costs very little :)

Any views on whethere these distributors house brands are any good....should we seek the brand name....or does it all come out of the same vat?

dian
01-18-2013, 03:29 PM
has anybody used stp on the ways?

Rosco-P
01-18-2013, 03:37 PM
has anybody used stp on the ways?

Not me, kind of expensive. Supposedly a good substirute for white lead (or is that red lead?) on dead centers. For me, STP oil treatment ranks up there with Slick 50, Marvel Mystery oil, Rislone and other automotive products that make unbelievable claims.

uncle pete
01-18-2013, 03:56 PM
Mac,
Yeah that's a good point. But there has to be more than a few commercial shops around where they don't believe that way oil is worth the effort. I certainly don't know near enough about the exact capabilities of way oils. But it's my understanding that they also help to float off the contaminates and those get somewhat peeled off with the oil as the slide moves with the felts or built in scrapers if the machine tool has them.. But as far as the actual wear, then just like you pointed out, any oil of the correct weight will prevent the same amount of wear once that wedge is built up and the machine tools slide surfaces are supported by it. The additives for that stiction and the actual tacifiers are what the standard types of oils can't do. Those tacifiers or not having them would be the reason why you would have increased wear on the slides. Logically that wear would show more so in the upper top surfaces of a lathes ways and the same for a mill due to gravity. And since it is a total loss oil system, then floating off or applying fresh oil to flush out and remove the contaminates is the only way it can work. The high end automatic pumped way lube systems I can't comment on. I'm barely lucky enough to have a one shot manual system on my mill.:)

Pete

oldtiffie
01-18-2013, 04:19 PM
I think that Pete is on the right track -with several others.

The machines in my shop are "light" by any measure as is the work I do on them.

Some while ago I ago - as soon as I started buying my new machines - I asked my supplier about lubrication - gear-boxes, "ways" etc. - and asked what he sold most of to the trade and hobby machininst whether as seperate products or a "one size that fits all" for my machines and the way I use them. Cost was not a problem.

He came up with a very good product which I use in and on everything and with which I am very satified:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lubrication/Machine_lub_oil1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lubrication/Machine_lub_oil2.jpg

I use liquid lanolin for sealing - just wipe on and when ready to use the machine just wipe it off:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lubrication/Lanotec_lanolin1.jpg

John Stevenson
01-18-2013, 04:29 PM
I use liquid lanolin for sealing - just wipe on and when ready to use the machine just wipe it off:



I'll bet not much gets wiped off. :p

RussZHC
01-18-2013, 04:42 PM
or does it all come out of the same vat?

I wonder this in a couple of ways :D;):o...from the manufacturer, I mean who is to really say but more so from the need/desire to buy in smaller quantities (EBay but also local have bottles of stuff labeled as such...and I know this is what? how?)

oldtiffie
01-18-2013, 04:45 PM
I'll bet not much gets wiped off. :p

That's right - but once yiu get used to the lanolin smell - like a sheep shearing shed - its OK.

But getting ity off is OK - just spray a new lot on and wipe it off.

The lanolin has a high-evaporative rate light "carrier?" in it which evaporates quickly and leaves a light "waxy" finish as a surface sealant.

willmac
01-18-2013, 04:48 PM
I have an old Myford ML7. If I use the same ordinary way oil on it that I use on my mill, the saddle gets hard to move. A better choice for that type of lathe is a light spindle oil frequently applied through the oilers to help keep the underside of the saddle flushed out. On my mill, I don't notice any problem - in fact the sideways are noticeably smoother with a proper way oil. On bigger, heavier lathes the same applies, no problem with way oil. My conclusion -there is no one way oil that works for all machines.

lazlo
01-18-2013, 05:16 PM
I know an old (OK, really old) guy who used STP for way oil, probably since the goo was invented. When he recently retired, his machines were auctioned, and all of them still looked pretty damned good,

STP is 50 weight oil with a ton of zinc as an anti-wear additive and detergents. See my comment above about using detergent oil on machine tools...

oldtiffie
01-18-2013, 05:37 PM
I wonder if some who live/work in very hot and cold zones notice any "friction/stiction" differences as the weather and/or the machine/s heat up and cool down - particularly as regards sliding surfaces where "way" lubrication is an issue (or is it?).

Mcgyver
01-18-2013, 06:00 PM
I'll bet not much gets wiped off. :p

hasn't needed the lanolin yet, still covered in fish guts :D

vpt
01-18-2013, 06:47 PM
I wonder if some who live/work in very hot and cold zones notice any "friction/stiction" differences as the weather and/or the machine/s heat up and cool down - particularly as regards sliding surfaces where "way" lubrication is an issue (or is it?).



I was turnin on the lathe a few days ago in 6f degree weather and didn't notice any difference than in 90f degree heat.

.RC.
01-18-2013, 07:13 PM
I did hear Vacuoline oils can over time gum up automatic lubrication systems if they are not used all the time... Vactra series oils don't...

kc5ezc
01-18-2013, 08:28 PM
STP is 50 weight oil with a ton of zinc as an anti-wear additive and detergents. See my comment above about using detergent oil on machine tools...
STP seems to be a lot more viscous than 50 wt. I use it on dead (non-rolling centers). USAF material lab did some research in the 80s on STP. I never could get a copy of the report. My best understanding was that the viscous properties broke down quickly.

dian
01-19-2013, 04:31 AM
"STP is 50 weight oil with a ton of zinc as an anti-wear additive and detergents"

must be more to it than that. i remember when i put a can of the stuff into my trans am, i picked up 500 rpm in top speed.

Black_Moons
01-19-2013, 05:12 AM
@JCHannum

"Way oil is purpose designed to be used on sliding surfaces."

I noticed in another thread that Grizzly is specifying Vactra 2 in the QC gearbox and the apron of one of its lathes:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/57609-Seeking-Opinions-on-new-Grizzly-lathe

Is that an appropriate use of "way" oil?

Makes sense to me on super slow gearboxes.

Likey way oil has decent pressure addatives and sticks like snot on a hot oven door: Will get transfered up the gears by contact from the bottom most gears, since some aprons are not fully flooded but only immerse the bottom of a few gears (At least, Mine is not flooded, just a sump basiclly that the gears dip into)

And QC/apron's don't spin more then a few 100 rpm with only a fraction of a HP worth of power with *huge* gears for the power transmited, so they don't exactly need a thin oil or one made for extream pressure.

Machtool
01-19-2013, 05:16 AM
I did hear Vacuoline oils can over time gum up automatic lubrication systems if they are not used all the time... Vactra series oils don't...
Is that the old Vactra or the new Vactra? That mightbe the peritac in the old Vactra. Two decades ago when I was doing preventive maintenance. When you took the reservoir of a central lube unit, you would often find an 1/8" of this waxy ****ty slime in the bottom of the bowl. The sort of stuff that you just know will block any filter or meter unit.

I dont notice that so much any more. Both with current Vactra or Magnaglide. I've talked most of my customers with Turcite / Moglice macihnes to go with Magnaglide. One oil for conventional ways and antifriction ways. In the field I dont know of anyone that went with the Vacouline series. I just dont see that out and about.

Phil

.RC.
01-19-2013, 06:21 AM
Yea the old stuff.... I was under the impression Vacuoline came out when they changed the Vactra formulation.. Often read threads especially when people are rebuilding old manual machine tools and often the Bijour oilers are all clogged up... I put that down to the old way oils gumming up the works when only used intermittently..

vpt
01-19-2013, 08:21 AM
"STP is 50 weight oil with a ton of zinc as an anti-wear additive and detergents"

must be more to it than that. i remember when i put a can of the stuff into my trans am, i picked up 500 rpm in top speed.



Is this you?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_b-ajYAFm5KE/TMG61jlM9dI/AAAAAAAAApE/Ijti6HxTee8/s1600/L1010139.JPG

Mcgyver
01-19-2013, 09:17 AM
"
must be more to it than that. i remember when i put a can of the stuff into my trans am, i picked up 500 rpm in top speed.

I've a kid in Switzerland right now, all kinds of beautiful pictures being sent back. Thinking there are trans ams there just shattered my impression :P

seriously though, I don't think Robert is judging the intended merits of STP, he's pointing out with the detergents its not a good choice for ways.

lazlo
01-19-2013, 11:51 AM
Wow Andy, please don't post my picture without asking first!?


I don't think Robert is judging the intended merits of STP, he's pointing out with the detergents its not a good choice for ways.

Roger that. I'm guessing, by the various STP tech rep emails that have been posted around the 'net that the difference between the Red and Blue STP is how much peritack (tackifiers) have been added.

Hgrunert
01-19-2013, 10:49 PM
I have been using a good quality (recommended by my son, a heavy duty mechanic) hydraulic oil for years now. Engine oil is only about 50% oil and the rest is additives you don't need on a lather or mill. Hydraulic oil is 95% oil, a far better product. Think about it, a hydraulic system is nothing but sliding parts, so the oil used will work fine for a shop machine. Hydraulic oil is usually sold in 20 liter pails, a bit much for a home shop. Look for a shop that does hydraulics repair work, and they will sell you a few liters, no problem. My mill has a one shot hand lube pump. The problem is if there is a plugged line, you don't know about it till it's too late. I made a manifold that the lube pump feeds, with take offs to valves and a separate lines to each lube point, 2 lines per axis, 6 lines and valves total.

While on the subject of lubrication, here in Canada, we have an industrial supplier called Acklands Granger, and I think in the U.S. they are called Granger. They carry a product called AP5 moly grease by Jet Lube (about $10 per tube). I use this product to lube the movement screws on both my mill and lathe This contains a high concentration of molybdenum disulphide (MoS2) which does two very important jobs. First, it is an excellent lubricant, and second, it clings to or plates metals. It is written on the tube that it “gives a high film strength, and low coefficient of friction, and it recommended for points that are prone to neglect”. It comes in a tube for a grease gun, but works just great if you use it straight from the tube with a stick or small paint brush. You will need to remove the screw and nuts from the machine, or at least get good access to them, and clean them to get all the oil and cuttings off them, so the grease has a clean, dry surface to cling to. A spray can of “brake cleaner” from an auto parts store will work just fine. Now paint the screw with a light coat of this grease and run it through the nut a few times. I check my screws on both the lathe and mill about twice a year, and the screws are always fully covered with this grease, as this lubricant doesn't rub off. This grease should also be used on any bushings on these machines, like the shaft for for the cross slide, where it turns in the casting. If you can't find the AP5, just look for a grease with a high percentage of molybdenum disulphide at an industrial supplier. I should also mention “Antiseeze Compound” God's gift to machines. The aluminum based paste is great for most anything. I use it on everything and especially on our cars. Just paint a little on the treads of a bolt and when run in, it prevents water from getting in and forms a boundary layer between the male and female threads which ensures you will get it apart later on. It's a must when running steel bolts into aluminum, which are prone to corrosion and ripping the aluminum threads out when the bolt is removed, also things like spark plugs and exhaust system parts. I should also mention, when you install a gasket that you know you will have to remove some day, rub a layer of antiseeze on both surfaces of the gasket, you'll get the gasket of easily next time. DO NOT use this product when mounting bearings, as the finely ground up metal is still large enough to cause problems in bearing mounts. As noted above, my son the mechanic uses this stuff all the time and uses about 2 liters a year.

macona
01-20-2013, 06:17 AM
Name brand SAE engine oil is about $5 a quart around here. A bottle of vactra 2 is about $20 a gallon. I dont see why you wouldnt want to use way lube over motor oil.

I used Vacuoline 1409 on all my machines. Works great, even on the south bend 9 me and my dad used motor oil on. It makes a huge difference. I do have to buy it in a 5 gal bucket but my auto-lube on the cnc mill goes though a lot if I forget to shut the machine down for a few days.

vpt
01-20-2013, 09:25 AM
Name brand SAE engine oil is about $5 a quart around here. A bottle of vactra 2 is about $20 a gallon. I dont see why you wouldnt want to use way lube over motor oil.


Because vactra 2 way oil isn't on the shelf right next to the motor oil and bar and chain oil. ;)

tlfamm
01-20-2013, 11:12 AM
...snip...
While on the subject of lubrication, here in Canada, we have an industrial supplier called Acklands Granger, and I think in the U.S. they are called Granger. They carry a product called AP5 moly grease by Jet Lube (about $10 per tube). I use this product to lube the movement screws on both my mill and lathe This contains a high concentration of molybdenum disulphide (MoS2) which does two very important jobs. First, it is an excellent lubricant, and second, it clings to or plates metals. It is written on the tube that it “gives a high film strength, and low coefficient of friction, and it recommended for points that are prone to neglect”. It comes in a tube for a grease gun, but works just great if you use it straight from the tube with a stick or small paint brush. You will need to remove the screw and nuts from the machine, or at least get good access to them, and clean them to get all the oil and cuttings off them, so the grease has a clean, dry surface to cling to. A spray can of “brake cleaner” from an auto parts store will work just fine. Now paint the screw with a light coat of this grease and run it through the nut a few times. I check my screws on both the lathe and mill about twice a year, and the screws are always fully covered with this grease, as this lubricant doesn't rub off. This grease should also be used on any bushings on these machines, like the shaft for for the cross slide, where it turns in the casting.
...snip...


Jet Lube AP5 is available from Amazon, $9.00 for a 1-lb can:

http://www.amazon.com/Jet-Lube-Non-Melt-Temperature-Black-Grease/dp/B00270BB8Q


But, doesn't the use of grease in a lathe/mill risk embedding chips in the lube? (More so than with oil ...)

andywander
01-20-2013, 11:33 AM
Engine oil is only about 50% oil and the rest is additives you don't need on a lather or mill. Hydraulic oil is 95% oil, a far better product. Think about it, a hydraulic system is nothing but sliding parts, so the oil used will work fine for a shop machine. Hydraulic oil is usually sold in 20 liter pails, a bit much for a home shop. ....
.....They carry a product called AP5 moly grease by Jet Lube (about $10 per tube). I use this product to lube the movement screws on both my mill and lathe

Why would "sliding parts" need less lubrication that an automobile engine?. Most of the additives in a motor oil are for improving it's viscosity and lubrication properties(except for the detergents).

I would be careful with the grease; i think it;s more likely to hold on to chips and cause wear.

lakeside53
01-20-2013, 11:44 AM
Yes, grease trapping the nasties can be a disaster. You only have to look at the BPs with the zerks; many have been greased instead of oiled (hey, it's GREASE zerk.. lol). I've pulled a couple of those down and the ways ways are scored (not just worn) miserably. The oil systems is supposed to be full-loss, so junk gets flushed out.

vpt
01-20-2013, 11:48 AM
Why would "sliding parts" need less lubrication that an automobile engine?. Most of the additives in a motor oil are for improving it's viscosity and lubrication properties(except for the detergents).



I get the non-detergent strait up oil, oil.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2326/lathedrawers003.jpg

dian
01-20-2013, 11:48 AM
yeah, ist me, almost, except i had a 78 T/A. that was 30 years ago. was the only stick shift in this country, i brought it over from the states.

loose nut
01-20-2013, 03:20 PM
Way lube is specifically made to do the job so isn't that by it's nature the best oil for the job, better then straight oil, hydraulic oil or motor oil. It's not that they won't do the job to some degree but way lube will do it better. It can be found if looked for.