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brian Rupnow
01-19-2013, 01:03 PM
This morning I'm just setting around messing with Philip Duclos' "Odds N Ends" hit and miss engine. I have his book with the plans in it, but he calls for 32 DP timing gears while I have only 24 DP gear cutters. A little research shows me that a 16 tooth and a 32 tooth 24DP gear should work fine, and doesn't change anything except the vertical position of the cam shaft mounting hole and the rocker arm pivot hole.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ASSEMBLY-ODDSNENDS_zps9836a6da.jpg

sasquatch
01-19-2013, 05:25 PM
Good Lord,,, i see ANOTHER project is taking shape!!!!!!!!!!!!

brian Rupnow
01-19-2013, 05:44 PM
A question for anyone who may have built this engine. Does the piston skirt REALLY stick out .109" beyond the cylinder when the piston is at bottom dead center? This doesn't seem right to me. Be aware that I have changed the left hand end of the sideplates to come out flush with the back side of the cylinder water jacket, but I haven't changed any of the mathematical relationships given in the drawings in Philip Duclos' book.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ASSEMBLY-ODDSNENDS-DRAWING_zps69d503f4.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-19-2013, 06:50 PM
I may have answered my own question. I've just watched half a dozen videos on youtube of this engine running, and yes, it does seem that the piston skirt does come out of the cylinder by about .100 at bottom dead center. This seems a bit strange to me, but the engines seem to run fine, so I guess no harm is done by it.

jdunmyer
01-19-2013, 07:26 PM
Brian,
I think at least one of my Debolt engines have the piston skirt exposed at BDC, just like your Duclos engine.

macona
01-19-2013, 07:34 PM
My sattley 1.5hp hit and miss also has the skirt extend past the back of the cylinder.

bytewise
01-19-2013, 07:45 PM
Re: timing gears. The DP and tooth count does not matter as long as the ratio is exactly 2:1. You can choose a tooth count that will allow the same center to center shaft distance as on the drawings.
Hugh

JCHannum
01-19-2013, 07:59 PM
I built the odds & ends engine many years ago and no longer have it as it was used for partial payment for my Rockwell milling machine.

I don't recall if the piston skirt was exposed or not, but as others have pointed out, it does on several full size engines. There is also no reason not to shorten the skirt or extend the cylinder provided there is no interference with the connecting rod swing.

As far as the gears, the build article included making a 16DP fly cutter to cut the gears. There is no harm in changing the gears and position of the cam gear, just make sure you have room for the governor latching mechanism. Once you change one thing, other relationships also change. CAD will be your friend warping it all back in place.

brian Rupnow
01-19-2013, 08:10 PM
You may well be right. On the engine plans it calls for a 20 tooth and a 40 tooth set of 32DP gears. The center to center is given as .9375". I picked a set of 16 tooth and 32 tooth DP gears, and they have a center distance of 1". A 15 tooth and 30 tooth set of 24DP gears has a center distance of .9375". The only issue is that a 15 tooth 24DP gear doesn't allow me to have a hub with an o.d. large enough to have 3/8" bore and a keyway and a set screw. Thats why I went "up" one size.

brian Rupnow
01-19-2013, 08:15 PM
I built the odds & ends engine many years ago and no longer have it as it was used for partial payment for my Rockwell milling machine.

I don't recall if the piston skirt was exposed or not, but as others have pointed out, it does on several full size engines. There is also no reason not to shorten the skirt or extend the cylinder provided there is no interference with the connecting rod swing.

As far as the gears, the build article included making a 16DP fly cutter to cut the gears. There is no harm in changing the gears and position of the cam gear, just make sure you have room for the governor latching mechanism. Once you change one thing, other relationships also change. CAD will be your friend warping it all back in place.
Jim---Thats why I modelled it in CAD. I wanted to make sure that the larger gear size and center distance didn't hit the baseplate. There is some free spur gear software that lets you plug in the parameters for your choice of gear and it will let you download a 3D cad file. Thats what is shown on the model and the drawing. ----16 and 32 tooth 24DP gears.---Brian

brian Rupnow
01-20-2013, 09:35 AM
I was mistaken. The small gear doesn't need a keyway and setscrew. It gets pinned to the shaft with a 1/16" dowel. That means I can use a 15 and 30 tooth gear with 24 DP and still keep the 0.9375" vertical centers. I have learned something new. I didn't know that gearsets with different diametral pitches can still be configured for the same ratio and center distance. I don't know if thats true in all cases or if I just got lucky here.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ASSEMBLY-ODDSNENDS-DRAWING_zps4caeac73.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-20-2013, 12:05 PM
I haven't cut any gears since I built my Steam Donky Winch over a year ago. I just got out all my paperwork and my gear cutters out for a full review. I found a few bits and bobs of brass in my brass drawer and came up with enough material to make two gears and the cam. In the original plans, the cam is machined right on the face of the larger 30 tooth gear, however I will have to solder the cam to the large gear. Here is a picture of the bits of brass I came up with, and the calculations I just made to set up my mill and rotary table, and to turn the blanks in preperation for cutting the gears. If anyone has questions, go ahead and ask.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GEARCALCULATIONS001_zps8d86a08c.jpg

A.K. Boomer
01-20-2013, 12:23 PM
I for sure would not be that concerned about the skirt popping out that little at BDC, there's so many factors for it being a non-issue, for one it is the most relaxed part of the stroke - no compression and no combustion, two is the piston is at it's slowest speed and three it's also in a position of near dead alignment so the skirt is not really getting loaded much,

skirts drag pretty heavy close to half way down the bore due to max piston speeds and misalignment with the crank throws and under loads from compression and esp. combustion...

brian Rupnow
01-20-2013, 03:27 PM
This first picture shows the two gear blanks turned to the correct outer diameter and thickness. To do this I first drilled and reamed the center holes by mounting the pieces in my lathes 3 jaw chuck and using drills and reamers mounted in the tailstock chuck to get the 3/8" center holes in them. I then Loctited them onto short lengths of 3/8" cold rolled shaft so I could hold the cold rolled in my lathe chuck and finish the o.d. and thickness of the parts. The 3/8" bore will be the finished bore in the small gear. The large gear will get the cam and a 3/8" diameter piece of brass silver soldered to it for "further processing".
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/TIMINGGEARSSOLDERED002_zps1a9003f3.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-20-2013, 03:29 PM
This is the large gear blank with the cam and a piece of 7/16" hex brass turned to 3/8" and all silver soldered together. Messy looking brute isn't it!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/TIMINGGEARSSOLDERED003_zpse371e1c3.jpg

J. R. Williams
01-20-2013, 03:34 PM
Extending the cylinder has to be done with care so you do not have the connecting rod hitting the cylinder.

brian Rupnow
01-20-2013, 03:41 PM
This is the large gear with the cam soldered to it "cleaned up" on the face side. The back side is still uglier than sin, but I will hang onto that hex shank to cut the gear teeth, then cut the shank off and clean the back side up as well. Both the gear blank and the cam had a .075 x 45 degree chamfer around the bore to hold a good solid ring of silver solder after everthing is cleaned up.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/solderedcamcleanedup001_zps180fe724.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/solderedcamcleanedup002_zpsd81530d1.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-20-2013, 03:42 PM
Thanks J.R. Williams. I did that with my 3D cad. I can animate all the moving parts and see what clearances I have when I rotate the crankshaft thru 360 degrees.

brian Rupnow
01-20-2013, 07:17 PM
So, after almost a whole day fiddle-fartin around, I have a set of gears and a cam. Its a good thing I don't charge myself by the hour---I couldn't afford this!!! Seriously, I don't do enough of this to really be comfortable with it. Its not like learning from scratch each time I do it, but it certainly makes me refer to reference notes I have made in the past when making gears. That book that I showed in an earlier post with my gear calculations in it is a real treasure. I have a new note to put in it this time.---Use longer stub arbors to keep the gear blank farther away from the rotary table chuck, or there won't be clearance for the gear cutter and the chuck jaws. I had to scab extensions onto both stub arbors today to achieve this clearance.---We learn, we learn!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GEARSFINISHED001_zps4781a46b.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GEARSFINISHED003_zpsaaac0215.jpg

A.K. Boomer
01-20-2013, 09:13 PM
That's some good stuff, nice work Bri - something tells me it's not as easy as you make it look though.

brian Rupnow
01-21-2013, 10:41 AM
Yes, I do write notes to myself!! At least on something like cutting gears, which I don't do very often. Its amazing how much this helps the next time I have to do this.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/timinggearsmeshing002_zpsfdcf0077.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-21-2013, 10:56 AM
And last but not least, the gears mesh properly at the correct center distance. I notice that I have inadvertantly rounded off the outer corner of the cam during my clean up filing and sanding. That won't effect the way it works though, as the cam follower rides on the portion of cam which is right up tight to the gear face.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/th_TIMINGGEARSMESHINGMOVIE_zps35ec8831.jpg (http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/TIMINGGEARSMESHINGMOVIE_zps35ec8831.mp4)

brian Rupnow
01-21-2013, 07:15 PM
I just learned something new this afternoon. I always thought that anything that could be bored on the lathe could also be bored with a boring head on the mill. I'm pretty sure I was wrong. Take a look at the bores in this water jacket. Neither could be made with a boring head on the mill. Why?? Because to do the larger internal bores, you have to be able to advance the radius of the tool while the tool or the part is turning under power. That is easily done with a boring bar in the lathe. With the lathe running and the cutting tool on the boring bar part way into the smaller finished bore, you can back out the cross slide and increase the tool radius. You can't do that with a boring head. Son of a gun, I like it when I discover something new!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CYLINDERBLOCK-WATERJACKET-ODDSNENDS_zps30bb0e51.jpg

JCHannum
01-21-2013, 07:38 PM
Of course it can be done on the mill. You just need a self feeding boring head. There are many types available. Gamet, Wolhaupter, Chandler and Narex to name a few. Metal Lathe Accessories offers a casting set for the HSM to roll his own.

brian Rupnow
01-21-2013, 08:19 PM
JC Hannum---You're right, and I am caught displaying my ignorance, once again. I didn't know that there were such things. Someone over on HMEM just posted a picture of one. I continue to learn-----That being said, they look to be terribly expensive compared to a $13 boring bar from BusyBee tools, for use in a lathe..

Mcgyver
01-21-2013, 08:59 PM
I may have answered my own question. I've just watched half a dozen videos on youtube of this engine running, and yes, it does seem that the piston skirt does come out of the cylinder by about .100 at bottom dead center. This seems a bit strange to me, but the engines seem to run fine, so I guess no harm is done by it.

did you ever get a reason why? my perkins does the same thing.

Only thing I can think of is the skirt is that long so that at least some part of the piston is always under the oiler....just a guess

JCHannum
01-21-2013, 09:12 PM
did you ever get a reason why? my perkins does the same thing.

Only thing I can think of is the skirt is that long so that at least some part of the piston is always under the oiler....just a guess

I knew I knew the reason at one time, but had forgotten. That is the reason, it controls the oil flow. If the engine were to stop at TDC, leaving the oiler port uncovered, the oiler would empty.

A.K. Boomer
01-22-2013, 12:29 AM
I thought of oiling too, but I did not see any oil ports in his diagram so did not comment any further,
here's what im guessing is going on with the design,

It's all a juggling act - long stroke engines of this type that rely on this kind of oiling can exceed their half way points and leave an oil port open be it BDC or TDC so the solution is to make a longer piston - the solution in covering the piston up with more lower cylinder bore so it wont hang out at BDC is limited due to crank throw and connecting rod angle hitting the lower cylinder bore - All solutions to this part of the equation can be remedied by simply moving the crank further away and making a longer connecting rod - but there are trade off's in this area as longer rods not only become more heavier but weaker too...

so - you let the piston hang out a touch and everybody's happy - there's really no worries - many compact car engines do this simply for rod clearance on the lower cylinder bore of the block and last hundreds of thousands of miles...

brian Rupnow
01-22-2013, 09:14 AM
That seems like a good enough reason to me. So---I'll let my skirt hang out!!! Thanks Guys.

Toolguy
01-22-2013, 10:57 AM
Make sure to cross your legs when you sit down!:o

brian Rupnow
01-22-2013, 03:45 PM
The original plan for this engine used a pair of angles for the side plates, and perched the water jacket up on top of them, leaving a gap between the underside of the waterjacket and the base. The water jacket also hung out past the back of the sideplates. I didn't fancy the overall look of this, so have decided to make the sideplates from 3/8" plate and to "profile" the water jacket to extend down between them to the baseplate. Of course this leaves me with a water jacket which requires a lot of carving and milling on it. I have also decided to make the top of the water jacket from a seperate piece. I have finished the profiling of the water jacket, and am about to set it up in the 4 jaw chuck in my lathe to bore the hole for the cast iron cylinder. I hate using the 4 jaw chuck worse than snakes, but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I will post a picture when everything is set up in the 4 jaw. I went over to BusyBee this morning and bought two new boring bars which hold a 1/4" square HSS bit, so this will be something relatively new for me.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ASSEMBLY-ODDSNENDS_zps89b91dc5.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-22-2013, 05:02 PM
After 20 minutes of tightning and loosening chuck screws, (Thats the part I hate about 4 jaw work) I finally got down to .002" movement of the needle on the dial indicator. I couldn't get any closer than that, so decided to quit while I was ahead and tighten everything up. A couple of good raps on the face of the part with my dead blow hammer to seat the part firmly against the chuck jaws, and its ready to be bored. May the force be with me----
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/4-jaw001_zpse02b689b.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/4-jaw002_zps0f65e7e4.jpg

sasquatch
01-22-2013, 06:10 PM
Another interesting build underway, thanks for ALL the GREAT documentation.

brian Rupnow
01-23-2013, 11:07 AM
Well, this appears to be as good as it gets with my Chinese brazed carbide boring bars. I first used a center drill in the tailstock chuck to get things started. Then I switched to a 0.341" drill (which is about right for a 10MM x 1 pitch sparkplug thead) and drilled all the way thru the aluminum block. Then I used up to a 3/4" drill in steps, taking great caution not to send the tip of the drill into the block amy more than 1.75". Last step was to send a 3/4" 4 flute endmill down the hole to ensure a totally flat bottom in the hole. I set up my lathe stops to ensure that I wouldn't go deeper than 1.75". Then with my brazed carbide tool I started taking .005" radial cuts at 300 rpm. This worked but produced a very heavy chatter, so I went to my slowest lathe speed, 115 Rpm. after MANY in and outs with the boring tool, I closed in on my final desired diameter of 1.375". after that, I ran the boring tool in and out an absolutely amazing number of times untill it cut "spring cutting"---That is to say, removing material even though i hadn't advanced the tool, caused by "springiness" in the shank of the carbide tipped boring tool. when i finally got to the point where it was no longer removing material, my hole mikes out a 1.379" diameter. This is not a big deal, as i will be turning the outer diameter of the cast iron cylinder to fit the bore. Now I get to set up my new boring bar with the inserted 1/4" hss cutting bit to open up the recess around the 1 3/8" hole to 1 5/8" which provides circulation of water around the cylinder. This is the bore I decided couldn't be done on the milling machine. (At least not with my boring head.)
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/firstbore001_zps6de55815.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/firstbore002_zps559ddf54.jpg

Jaakko Fagerlund
01-23-2013, 11:17 AM
Why did you have to use spring cuts on that bore? Why not just cut to the required diameter without hassle? If the tool flexes, it flexes for the whole length of work, thus the bore is straight or uniform in diameter.

And carbide doesn't necessarily like well of those spring cuts, usually it makes the surface quality crap because it is not cutting properly (not enough DOC).

brian Rupnow
01-23-2013, 11:30 AM
Jaakko---I have no way of telling whether is is spring cutting the same amount over the full length. I feel much better about seeing it travers the entire cut area without pulling ANY chips. I may well be wrong in this. I haven't bored all that many things in my life.

JCHannum
01-23-2013, 11:35 AM
A point to note for building items such as this is the sequence of construction. The decision of where to start is sometimes difficult to make. It would seem that starting with the simplest part and progressing to the more difficult parts would be the best choice. It might not be as Brian's experience with the boring shows. If a dimension is missed, it is a simple matter to adjust the less complex part to fit. For that reason, I will usually machine the most complex part first and make the simpler next, making any adjustments as needed.

Something to consider is that the Duclos plans use a steel cylinder block and a cast iron cylinder pressed fit. Using an aluminum block and cast cylinder might bite you in the tail due to differences in thermal expansion. With the problems encountered maintaining compression with these small engines, I would suggest using Loc-tite or some other similar sealant/adhesive when assembling the two pieces rather than counting solely on a press fit.

brian Rupnow
01-23-2013, 11:54 AM
JCHannum--Great minds think alike!! I was going to liberally Loctite the sleeve before pressing it into place. Now, this is a BORING BAR!!! It is 3/4" dia. x 12" long with a square hole through one end and a 45 degree hole thru the far end for a 1/4" square hss. cutting tool. Okay, I know i have to cut the 1/4" cutting tool much shorter. What I don't know, is whether to try cutting/boring with the full width of the 1/4" face. It seems to me that would chatter very badly. My plan at the moment is to grind the first 1/4" of length down to only 1/8" wide, and do the same to the opposite end of the tool, but on the opposite side. This will effectively give me a "right hand tool" and a "left hand tool". I will go to the extreme depth of the 1 5/8" coolant passage and do a plunge cut to the full 1 5/8" diameter. I will then switch ends on the cutting tool, move to the other end of the 1 5/8" coolant passage and do another full depth plunge cut. Remember now, this plunge cut will only be 1/8" deep. Then i can back my tool out and take lighter cuts back and forth between these two annular rings untill the entire coolant ring area is opened out to 1 5/8" diameter. Does that sound about right??
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/bigboringbar002_zpsad3b872f.jpg

Deja Vu
01-23-2013, 12:10 PM
Hi Brian,
I don't post much in your threads, but you always answer the questions for me that arise from your previous operations... Your solution cleared up any thoughts I had about how you would make the chamber bore!

Thanks

JCHannum
01-23-2013, 01:08 PM
Check photo #7 in the Duclos writeup for grinding the cutting tool.

brian Rupnow
01-23-2013, 05:10 PM
I had to drive to a customers this afternoon, and got thinking on the way. I don't need to grind right and left hand ends on my cutting tool. Since I'n not boring up tight against an adjacent face, I only need to reduce the width at one end to 1/8". This is what I ended up with. I did have really sharp corners on each side of the cutting edge, and was wondering about creating stress risers in the part I was machining. I took a look at picture #7 in Philip Duclos' book and seen that he had a fairly good rad on the tool he shows, so I dismounted the tool after this picture was taken and stoned a small radius on each sharp corner.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GROUNDBORINGTOOL-2001_zps3a6b5754.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-23-2013, 06:42 PM
Well, that was interesting. In fact---Ah Hell, I'll come right out and say it---It was kinda SCARY!!! However, evrything worked just like the machining books said it was supposed to!! I had set my carriage stops both front and rear so that I didn't have to count turns, I just ran the carriage back and forth between the stops. I could feel a bit of chatter, so I worked with my rpm at 115 and took about .003" to .004" radial cut. I kept squirting oil in periodically, and stopped the lathe a couple of times to pull out chips from the hole with my needle nosed pliers. when I was all finished boring, I put my M10 sparkplug tap in my small chuck, held in the larger tailstock chuck, and manually turned the headstock chuck with the tailstock not locked down. This let the tap pull itself thru and remain perfectly centered. Everything is removed from the lathe now and wiped clean, and I must say it looks awfully good. I haven't used this type of boring bar and tool before, but it all worked as adverised with no disasters.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/BORINGFORCYLINDERFINISHED001_zps636e709b.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/BORINGFORCYLINDERFINISHED002_zps7e9003eb.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-23-2013, 06:49 PM
Now I will ask an opinion. The waterjacket I have been working on also gets a large bore in the top to contain water, and a thru hole to let the water circulate around the cylinder. In Philip duclos' book, he pressed the cast iron cylinder liner into place before putting these other holes in the waterjacket. I would find it much more convenient to put all the holes in the waterjacket first, and press the cylinder into place (with lots of Loctite) as a last operation. Would there be any good reason not to do it the way I prefer?---Brian

Duffy
01-23-2013, 07:44 PM
If you are REALLY talking a press fit, then I think that you may be courting disaster. Applying serious force on the cylinder just might deform the side of the block where the water well is located. I think that, since locktite is the adhesive of choice, I would aim for a snug push fit.

brian Rupnow
01-23-2013, 08:06 PM
Duffy--I don't have a lot of faith in my machining ability when it comes to press fits. My press fits range from "pound in with sledge hammer" (The Kerzel I built) to "Damn---it falls in!!!" This is a rather nasty engine, in that if the cylinder doesn't get a perfect seal, it not only leaks compression, but also leaks coolant into the cylinder. I know that Loctite will be my friend. I will do things in the same sequence as Philip Duclos did.

Deja Vu
01-23-2013, 08:50 PM
Brian,
Will you be heating the block when inserting/pressing the cylinder?

darryl
01-23-2013, 09:09 PM
That's definitely one of the challenges in machining- getting the desired degree of fit between parts. Of course you have to factor in the differing degrees of expansion between materials, especially when there's lots of heat being produced in the operation of the final product. Having a steel cylinder fall out of an aluminum block once hot would not be fun- at the same time if the fit is tight enough to handle this, there could be some warpage of parts when it's cold. More than once I've been amazed that engines can have mixed materials and still function normally, use little oil, and remain operating properly for thousands of hours.

Brian, you seem to be one of the most prolific engine builders here- good on ya.

michigan doug
01-23-2013, 10:50 PM
When you are finished with this very interesting little engine, how would you feel about painting it to look like the cad model??

Carry on.

doug

darryl
01-23-2013, 11:01 PM
Hmm- painting it. It just struck me that since aluminum can be anodized, why not other conductive materials-

Is it even possible to color metals wildly like you can in al?

brian Rupnow
01-24-2013, 12:38 PM
I don't generally paint my engines. However, I suppose there is a first time for everything. Anodizing costs too much for me.---Brian

brian Rupnow
01-25-2013, 06:25 PM
I found a little time this afternoon (actually quite a bit of time) and made the top for the waterjacket. Since I opted to have a "tail" on my waterjacket to fill up the gap between the sideplates, there was no way I could fit the waterjacket into my 4 jaw on the lathe to do the stepped bore for the water container. Not a big problem. I'll do the bore for the water container part of the water jacket on my mill, and Loctite the top on as a seperate piece. Since I had the 4 jaw chuck on my lathe anyways, I decided the top should have a 3/16" long x 1.75" diameter projection on it to fit inside the bored hole--all the more for the Loctite to hold onto.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/WATERJACKETTOP001_zps695b23fb.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/WATERJACKETTOP002_zpsa73cc07f.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-26-2013, 03:40 PM
And here we have---"Swarf Mountain"!! I tried to buy grey cast iron that had a hole cored thru it similar to heavy wall pipe, but all my supplier had was 1.5" dia. solid round bar. This, as shown, has a 15/16" hole drilled thru it. I step drilled with 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" and then jumped to 15/16". Now I will mount it on a 15/16" arbor and turn the outside to what I hope/hope/hope is a medium press fit into the aluminum water jacket. Before it gets pressed into the water jacket, I will remove the arbor, hold the outer finished diameter in my chuck, and ream the bore to its finished 1.00" size.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/SWARFMOUNTAIN001_zps2679b3e7.jpg

EVguru
01-26-2013, 04:32 PM
Is there any reason why the cylinder can't be fitted with O-rings?

brian Rupnow
01-26-2013, 04:46 PM
It could probably be fitted with an o-ring at the end where it extends out of the water jacket. The other end though, goes into a blind hole in the waterjacket and must not only prevent water from leaking into the combustion chamber, but must prevent engine compression from escaping into the water jacket. The original plan calls for a cast iron cylinder pressed into a mild steel waterjacket. I made the waterjacket from aluminum, however I'm not too excited about differential thermal expansion because these engines run cooler than you would believe, as they pump ambient temperature air thru the combustion chamber during the "miss" part of the "hit and miss" cycle.---plus the water jacket draws off a great deal of heat. My biggest concerns are more about my machining abilities than the design of the engine.---Brian

Jaakko Fagerlund
01-26-2013, 05:03 PM
Just an idea, but I would rough that cylinder to almost finished dimensions, leave 1 mm or so to the ends in length, then bore the hole ready, put a small 60 chamfer on the bore and then mount it between centers and finish the outer diameter. Guaranteed to be concentric and easy to finish off the ends to get rid of the chamfers if necessary. And no need for a lathe dog or similar, it holds in the centers well enough for finish cuts :)

tdkkart
01-26-2013, 05:30 PM
Don't press fit, turn the cylinder to +.0015-.002, heat the water jacket to 350-400*, drop the cylinder in place. When it's cooled the cylinder will be sealed.

sasquatch
01-26-2013, 05:39 PM
Great follow along postings Brian, enjoyable viewing.

brian Rupnow
01-26-2013, 06:58 PM
I am going to use green Loctite #638. I have things turned to a point where it is soooo close--I don't dare take any more off. I miked the inside bore of my waterjacket 9 different places, and took an average of my readings. The average says 1.384. I have the o.d. of the cylinder setting right at 1.386. I'm afraid to take any more off, because the next thing I do the damn cylinder will FALL into the bore. I have to do a final ream of the cylinder i.d. and then its showtime.---Wish me luck!!!---Brian

Deja Vu
01-26-2013, 10:04 PM
Good luck...

brian Rupnow
01-27-2013, 11:04 AM
I got this far and chickened out. Well actually, I decided that discretion is the better part of valour!! The cylinder is finished inside and out, and looks good but I decided not to press it in here. I have to go to one of the small shops tomorrow that I do engineering work for, and they have a hydraulic press. All I have here to press with is my old vice, a manual arbor press, and my redneck favourite, the 6 pound hammer and anvil. It might slip right into place easy, but then again it might hang up half way in like the Kerzel engine I built. If it hangs up part way, thats really bad Mojo because its going into a blind hole, and can't be pressed out again from the other side. I will use their hydraulic press and lots of Loctite tomorrow.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CHICKENEDOUT001_zpsd1181cf3.jpg

tdkkart
01-27-2013, 12:11 PM
I'm tellin' ya, throw the water jacket in the toaster oven at 350*, cylinder in the freezer(if it makes you more comfortable). Pull them out and drop the cylinder home.

Pressing it risks galling, which will pull/groove material off the surfaces you need to sealed. Grooves in your sealing surfaces will be a bad thing.

Jaakko Fagerlund
01-27-2013, 12:44 PM
Just heat the aluminum piece. You have a 35 mm hole and a cylinder that is 35.1 mm. Heating only with boiling water brings the diameter of the water jacket to the same as the cylinder is, so heating in a kitchen oven to 200 Celsius makes a 0.1 mm difference to the diameters and it slips in easily.

brian Rupnow
01-28-2013, 03:30 PM
Well, its in there!! I used a q-tip to slather a goodly amount of Loctite 638 both into the water jacket bore and on the outside of the cast cylinder, and had at it with the hydraulic press. (The hydraulic press is one of those cheapies with a bottle jack inside a channel frame). The first part of the cylinder went in with what I would deem as a light press fit, . The last 1/2" or so of travel took a fairly good grunt, but never stopped moving until it had bottomed out. I think its probably a good compression tight fit. And Oh Yes, I built the base yesterday afternoon after dinner.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CYLINDERPRESSEDIN001_zps24e03f49.jpg

sasquatch
01-28-2013, 05:06 PM
gettin there, looks great, now i'm wondering how you cut that "Cove" around the edge of the base.

Which cutter? Seen some guys have done this with a router.

brian Rupnow
01-28-2013, 05:49 PM
Did that with a ball nosed cutter. Set the centerline of the cutter vertically in line with the edge of the plate, and it will give a nice radius as you lower it incrementally and crank the plate back and forth under it.

brian Rupnow
01-28-2013, 07:23 PM
Its been a very boring afternoon---And I mean that literally. I never actually realized it before, but boring parts in a lathe has got to be about 100 times quicker than boring things on a mill.--At least on a small mill like mine. At any rate, this cylinder/water jacket is just about done. I have four holes left to tap, and if I don't stuff that up, I can move on to my engine sideplates.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/WATERJACKET-CYLFINISHED001_zps635ffb8d.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/WATERJACKET-CYLFINISHED002_zps507c4121.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/WATERJACKET-CYLFINISHED003_zps8805b54a.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-29-2013, 06:00 PM
Made good progress today, and got both side frames almost finished. Everything bolts together as intended, and I like the way the water jacket extends down to the baseplate between the sideplates. I have to go and buy a #8-32 tap tomorrow, and a few bolts of the correct size.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/SIDEPLATESFINISHED001_zpsff888042.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/SIDEPLATESFINISHED002_zpsf7208e99.jpg

Deja Vu
01-29-2013, 06:04 PM
looking nice so far!

brian Rupnow
01-30-2013, 06:14 PM
More 4 jaw work machining the 660 bronze crankshaft bearings. I don't think I could ever get to actually LIKE 4 jaw chuck work, but its ttrue, what others have said. It does get easier as you do more of it!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/660BRONZEBRGS001_zps9a578e9b.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-30-2013, 06:27 PM
I have spent the best part of today machining these two crankshaft bearings from 660 bronze. They are right and left hand. It wasn't supposed to be this way, but now I have to admit to making a "good mistake" if there can possibly be such a thing. The saddle in the sideplates where the bearing sets was supposed to be 1" long. I misread my own drawing when I layed out the sideplates, and made the saddle 1 1/4" long. However, I made the part the correct length, and still allowed for the additional .125" beyond the saddle to the end of the sideplate at the top. The only result of my mistake was that the saddle where the bearing sets was 1/4" longer than it was supposed to be, and the angle at the end of the sideplates ended up being different than my drawing called for. That angle at the end of the sideplates is "in the air"--its purely cosmetic and doesn't mate with anything. My solution to this, was to make each bearing block 1/4" longer on one side of the centerline, which filled the 1/4" gap nicely, but made the bearings right and left hand. I got lucky. Mistakes in reading a drawing usually result in disaster and remaking parts.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/660BRONZEBRGS003_zps577c6688.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/morebearingpics001_zpscb934dd4.jpg

sasquatch
01-30-2013, 06:35 PM
Makin very good progress , thanks for the pics again, always welcome.

brian Rupnow
01-31-2013, 03:39 PM
Its almost crankshaft time!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ALMOSTCRANKSHAFTTIME001_zpsf0340268.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ALMOSTCRANKSHAFTTIME002_zpsd638ff8e.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-02-2013, 11:27 AM
What you see here, is a truly horrible end to a truly horrible day!!! I decided to make my crankshaft as a built up unit, pinned and silver soldered together from seperate pieces. All went well, and I had everything drilled, reamed, centered, trued, and silver soldered, ready for cleanup. Then I got the TELEPHONE CALL. A very east indian sounding chap, telling me was from Microsoft, and that my computer was downloading error messages and overwhelming the local server. I am not as a usual matter of course a gullible old fool, but this fellow sounded very sincere. He directed me to a place deep in the guts of my computer and sure enough, there were a whole #$@t load of big red error messages. Now my spider senses had started to tingle a bit, but then again, damn near every place that has a tech help division now operates out of India. He informed me that if this wasn't fixed at once, it could possibly crash my computer and lose all of my files, yada, yada, yada. However, rescue was at hand, because if I would just give him access to my computer he could set things right for the low, low price of $149 payable thru PayPal. ---And that he would install some software that was good for the next 3 years to prevent this happening again.----So I did. Then my good wife, being the ever diligent watchdog that she is went online, looked it up, and sure enough, the whole damn thing was a scam. The rest of the day was spent in a flurry of cancelling bank cards, changing passwords, changing accounts, changing online access codes, calling Vissa, calling Paypal, visiting local banks, removing added software from my computers hard drive, running malware and anti virus programs, phoning computer repair shops (who in my opinion are only one notch better than the scammers).--In short, a totally dreadfull experience. At the end of the day, when things had sttled down, I decided that something to calm my mind was in order, so I went down to my little shop and decided to begin final clean-up and machining of the crankshaft. I got the center cut out, the shaft mounted between centers with one leg running past a chuck jaw to act as a drive dog, and very carefully cleaned up one side. Then I changed to an opposite hand tool and just started to very carefully clean up the other side, when "WHAM--CLUNK"--a horrible end to a horrible day. I may spend the rest of the winter hiding in my bedroom contemplating my navel, or maybe take up needlepoint.----Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CRANKSHAFTCRASH001_zps9ece48a2.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CRANKSHAFTCRASH002_zps961d5909.jpg

Black Forest
02-02-2013, 11:36 AM
What you see here, is a truly horrible end to a truly horrible day!!! I decided to make my crankshaft as a built up unit, pinned and silver soldered together from seperate pieces. All went well, and I had everything drilled, reamed, centered, trued, and silver soldered, ready for cleanup. Then I got the TELEPHONE CALL. A very east indian sounding chap, telling me was from Microsoft, and that my computer was downloading error messages and overwhelming the local server. I am not as a usual matter of course a gullible old fool, but this fellow sounded very sincere. He directed me to a place deep in the guts of my computer and sure enough, there were a whole #$@t load of big red error messages. Now my spider senses had started to tingle a bit, but then again, damn near every place that has a tech help division now operates out of India. He informed me that if this wasn't fixed at once, it could possibly crash my computer and lose all of my files, yada, yada, yada. However, rescue was at hand, because if I would just give him access to my computer he could set things right for the low, low price of $149 payable thru PayPal. ---And that he would install some software that was good for the next 3 years to prevent this happening again.----So I did. Then my good wife, being the ever diligent watchdog that she is went online, looked it up, and sure enough, the whole damn thing was a scam. The rest of the day was spent in a flurry of cancelling bank cards, changing passwords, changing accounts, changing online access codes, calling Vissa, calling Paypal, visiting local banks, removing added software from my computers hard drive, running malware and anti virus programs, phoning computer repair shops (who in my opinion are only one notch better than the scammers).--In short, a totally dreadfull experience. At the end of the day, when things had sttled down, I decided that something to calm my mind was in order, so I went down to my little shop and decided to begin final clean-up and machining of the crankshaft. I got the center cut out, the shaft mounted between centers with one leg running past a chuck jaw to act as a drive dog, and very carefully cleaned up one side. Then I changed to an opposite hand tool and just started to very carefully clean up the other side, when "WHAM--CLUNK"--a horrible end to a horrible day. I may spend the rest of the winter hiding in my bedroom contemplating my navel, or maybe take up needlepoint.----Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CRANKSHAFTCRASH001_zps9ece48a2.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CRANKSHAFTCRASH002_zps961d5909.jpg


Does not sound like a good day Brian.
What did the Crankshaft collide with?

brian Rupnow
02-02-2013, 12:06 PM
BlackForest--As near as I am able to tell, the tool "dug in" I was feeding the tool directly in at 90 derees to the long axis of the lathe, feeding very slowly when it happened. Tool was set at correct center height, etc,. but there is a lot of backlash in my crossfeed. When things happen at 550 RPM it is pretty hard to diagnose exactly what happened after the fact. I know the part didn't hit the backside of the tool, brecause i had checked for clearance and set my carriage stop to prevent me accidently moving the tool into a position where the part could contact the back side of it.

Jaakko Fagerlund
02-02-2013, 12:32 PM
Feel your sorrow about the crash, hope you get on your feet again! :)

BTW, where can I find the plans for this Duclos engine?

Tim in D
02-02-2013, 04:59 PM
Looks like it's time to pour a wee drop of the whiskey and sit in front of the fireplace!

Tim in D

brian Rupnow
02-02-2013, 06:32 PM
Feel your sorrow about the crash, hope you get on your feet again! :)

BTW, where can I find the plans for this Duclos engine?
I bought a book called "The Shop Wisdom of Philip Duclos" through this forum. It has plans for a number of similar engines, with good technical write ups and pictures of the builds in process.

sasquatch
02-02-2013, 06:34 PM
Scammers and telemarketers!! The big PITA when trying to do something!!!

Jaakko Fagerlund
02-02-2013, 07:11 PM
I bought a book called "The Shop Wisdom of Philip Duclos" through this forum. It has plans for a number of similar engines, with good technical write ups and pictures of the builds in process.
Hmm, have to look that up if I happen to find it from some place. Thanks for the tip! :)

George Bulliss
02-02-2013, 07:20 PM
The store is a PITA to navigate, this link will get you to the page with the Duclos book. Great book and one of our best sellers.
https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/list/group/130/page/2

brian Rupnow
02-04-2013, 12:50 PM
COWABUNGA!!!! I reported the computer scammer to the Canadian fraud authorities and to Paypal.---Just got an email from Paypal that my $149 has been refunded. Now all I have to do is wear that sign around my neck for the next six months that says "Gullible Old Fool"!!!!

outlawspeeder
02-04-2013, 02:02 PM
It happens to more people than admit to it. Wait tell you get the phone call about being order to appear. They give you a number to call so you don’t get the order. When you call the number the questions start. By the time you’re done they tell you all is ok while they are taking your money with the info you gave them.
By the way the build is looking really good and I may have to give the build a try. Please do not give in to one setback. Hang it on a wall to remind you what does not work, and start again.


All failures that go without a “new” lesson can be considered wasted time. Those failures we repeat are truly wasted. Failures we learn from are investments into our character that will only improve the final results of future projects you dream to complete.

Jaakko Fagerlund
02-04-2013, 05:22 PM
The store is a PITA to navigate, this link will get you to the page with the Duclos book. Great book and one of our best sellers.
https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/list/group/130/page/2
Thanks George, I'll check it out from my next paycheck :)

brian Rupnow
02-05-2013, 12:17 PM
Well, so far-so good!! This is my second attempt at a crankshaft, this time being turned from solid hot rolled 1018 steel flatbar. The cutting tool is a 3/4" x 1/8" wide parting off tool, HSS. I have turned the center journal down to the point where I have to grind a left hand and a right hand cutter to finish the journal to size. I find this very nerve wracking, expecting the side of the crankshaft throw to come around and whack the cutting tool and do something dreadfull!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CRANKSHAFTFROMSOLID-1001_zps213bdc69.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CRANKSHAFTFROMSOLID-1002_zps7d9dd80e.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-05-2013, 02:41 PM
Here we have right and left hand lathe tools. If they look a little crude, thats because, er, uhm,---They are a little crude!! However, they are only crude in the clearance areas. The parts that really count (as in cutting edges) are "Right on".--Lacking the time and/or energy to stand for two hours in front of my 6" grinder, I clamped the tools one at a time in my old shop vise and "clearanced" them with my big old angle grinder with a 36 grit wheel on it. Nothing like using a sledge hammer to kill a gnat!!! The crankshaft center journal is finished, measures 0.375" "dead nuts" and has a pretty damn respectable finish on it. Now I have to quit for a while, and work up the courage to turn the rest of the crankshaft.--And Oh Yeah---I was plunge cutting with the end of the tool---very very little cutting on the side of the tool.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/RIGHTANDLEFTLATHETOOLS001_zps64189aa4.jpg

sasquatch
02-05-2013, 05:23 PM
So far so good, looking great, and great Narrative also !! Lol

brian Rupnow
02-05-2013, 08:25 PM
Now to put a 3/8" bolt thru the center and tighten a nut into place, with a flat washer, to keep any potential "spring" from distorting the crankshaft when supported between centers, and back into the lathe for next machining operation.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CRANKSHAFT-2001_zps92e27e91.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-06-2013, 03:26 PM
One end done----
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CRANKSHAFT-FIRSTEND001_zpsfc2547b8.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-07-2013, 11:26 AM
It goes 'round and 'round. It doesn't crash, and it doesn't wobble. I think I did it right this time!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CRANKSHAFTALMOSTDONE001_zps73c122bf.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CRANKSHAFTALMOSTDONE002_zpse477eda9.jpg

Duffy
02-07-2013, 06:40 PM
Looks great Brian.
I have two questions/comments:-
1) When you stiffen up the turning blank, have you considered just Loctiting a bit of square stock in the crank throw space? I know that EVERY example in the British "how tos" use a bolt but, it seems to me, that packing with virtually NO chance of coming loose, or catching something, would be a real advantage.
2) When you were getting stock for the cranckshaft, had you considered 1" 12L14 bar? It machines better, even with an interrupted cut. The finished product would look the same except the crank "cheeks" would be discs, until you mill the flats.

brian Rupnow
02-07-2013, 07:13 PM
Hi Duffy--I considered loctiting a peice between the crank "throws". Somebody on the HMEM forum even posted a fixture he made by inserting a piece of milled brass between the throws that was held in place by a bolt. I ended up using a bolt because it was quick, and I had the right size bolt in my drawer of ten million bolts. (A 40 year collection).
I inquired about 12L14 for the crank, but my supplier only carries 12L14 in round bars, and I didn't want to do that much machining.---Brian

brian Rupnow
02-08-2013, 01:21 PM
I had to take a couple of hours this morning and work my way thru the "hit and miss" mechanisms for this engine. Modelling it in 3D cad makes it much easier for me to understand, and also lets me see if there were any mistakes in the original 2D drawings of this engine which are posted in the book. Everything looks to be okay, now I just have to machine all the little bits and pieces.----Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/HITANDMISSMECHANISM-ODDSNENDS_zpsdef3b1aa.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-08-2013, 07:05 PM
It doesn't look like much, and its not a great photograph, but two little parts were made and fitted this afternoon. The cam shaft, which passes thru the large gear and anchors in the engine sideplate, and the spacer that sets the distance from the sideplate to the side of the gear. I have to approach building these small engines the same way you would eat an elephant----one small bite at a time. If you consider ALL of the pieces, you would throw up your hands and find a different hobby. As a side note, when I built the gears and drilled a test block with the correct hole centers for a pair of dummy shafts, the gears meshed perfectly, as can be seen in the video clip at the beginning of this thread. Once I got them installed on the engine however, they wanted to bind very badly. After a lot of head scratching and measuring, I determined that "somehow" I had drilled the hole in the engine sideplate .020" too close to the crankshaft gear. Since the camshaft is locked in the sideplate with a set screw, I was able to "stretch" the hole .020" farther away from the crankshaft, and the gears mesh fine now.
.----Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CAMSHAFTANDSPACER001_zpsb0e01a0d.jpg

Mcgyver
02-08-2013, 07:38 PM
good job, making cranks like that take some effort

brian Rupnow
02-08-2013, 08:30 PM
Thanks Mcgyver.---This one made me sweat bullets. Its not perfect, but its close.

J. R. Williams
02-08-2013, 08:42 PM
With a little four jaw chuck work you could have made an eccentric section on the shaft that would allow adjusting the gear meshing. Nice work on the crankshaft.

brian Rupnow
02-08-2013, 08:55 PM
With a little four jaw chuck work you could have made an eccentric section on the shaft that would allow adjusting the gear meshing. Nice work on the crankshaft.

Wouldn't work J.R.--The vertical slot in the end of the camshaft (kinda hard to see) has to stay vertical.

brian Rupnow
02-09-2013, 02:54 PM
I woke up this morning feeling a bit "pistonish"---so thats how I spent my day. The other half of that piece of grey cast iron that I made the cylinder from was setting around in my shop, so I grabbed it and after about 4 or 5 hours I had a piston and I even scrounged up a bit of 3/16" cold rolled to make a piston pin from. I think this time around I may try cast iron rings. I have always used Viton O rings in the past on my I.C. engines, and they perform very well, but I would like to try using cast iron rings this time to see if there is any difference in the way the engine performs. I know of "Coles power Models" because they are mentioned in the Philip Duclos book, but if any of you guys know of a good source of cast iron rings in North America, please let me know. Don't suggest that I make them myself please. My machining abilities are not up to it yet.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/PISTON-2001_zpsc4717f59.jpg

Jaakko Fagerlund
02-09-2013, 04:14 PM
The piston rings could have been made at the same time as the piston, from the same material. Basically slicing off from the skirt end after having the OD and ID ready. After that it would required snapping them and putting them in a jig that widens them from the split and then heat treat them to get the springiness to them.

Looking at your builds it looks very much to me that you indeed have the ability to make them :)

Robg
02-09-2013, 08:22 PM
Hi Brian I am a big fan of your projects! Great work. For piston rings, you might want to try Otto Gas Engine Works at ringspacers.com. They claim to supply rings in a wide variety of sizes etc. Hope this helps.

jdunmyer
02-09-2013, 08:42 PM
Brian,
Debolt Machine has various sized piston rings. See http://www.deboltmachine.com/id4.html

Also, FWIW: Our Debolt models all called for hardened piston pins, in fact that was the only thing that needs to be hardened. We used dowel pins.

brian Rupnow
02-10-2013, 08:11 PM
Accomplished a little bit today----but only a little bit. Layed out the con rod this morning, then goodwife and I took our grand daughters up to winter carnival in Orillia. Beautifull sunny winters day, watched a bunch of lunatics take the "Polar Bear Plunge" into Lake Couchiching thru a hole cut in the ice. Brrrrrr!!! When we got home I shaped the con rod cap, drilled it, tapped the main con rod body, and bolted them together. I will shape the main body of the con rod tomorrow and put in the holes for the wrist pin and crankshaft journal. Oddly, Philip Duclos doesn't call for any bushings at either end of the aluminum con rod, but then again, these are only demo engines that don't see any real working life, so probably bushings aren't needed.----Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CONRODLAYOUT001_zpsb886e5dd.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-11-2013, 02:55 PM
Todays offering to the machining gods is one aluminum connecting rod.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CONNECTINGROD001_zps4a2cff55.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-11-2013, 03:42 PM
Phewwwww----Hade a little heart spas going there for a minute!! I got everything together, and the crankshaft wouldn't go all the way around. It hung up at just about when the piston was getting to top dead center Oh No!!! What did I do. Did I make the con rod too long? Did I make the crank throws too long??? Did I misread the drawing of the piston when i made it? Oh wait--lets shove the vernier down thru the spark plug hole and measure how far it is down to the top of the piston. 0.465"--That can't be right!! Whats going on??? Tear things all apart and sure enough---A Big glob of Loctite has oozed out when I pressed the cylinder into the water jacket and "froze' on the inside of the cylinder. With a little "scrapy, polishy, cursy" the Loctite is gone. The crankshaft goes all the way around now. I'm ahead!!! I'm going to quit for the day!!!

sasquatch
02-11-2013, 04:57 PM
That "Stop" no doubt created a bit of heart palpitations!!:confused:

brian Rupnow
02-11-2013, 06:35 PM
Today I ordered a pair of cast iron rings from Coles Power Models in Texas. This will be "breaking new ground" for me, as I have only used Viton o-rings before now.

brian Rupnow
02-12-2013, 03:34 PM
Started a bunch of "flywheel foolishness" this afternoon. Both aluminum saw cut-offs were turned to 1/16" greater than finished diameter, faced on both sides to .100 greater than finished thickness, and drilled and reamed to finished size, which is .375". I have to be carefull now not to get ahead of myself, as there are a lot of steps to what I am doing, and if I get out of sequence, it can mean wasted material and starting over.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/FLYWHEELFOOLISHNESS001_zps95f3e4fd.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-13-2013, 04:37 PM
So there we have it!!! With a lot of help from my friends, two nice flywheels, turned to size, recessed, keyseated, and set screwed. They are still 1/16" wider than the drawing calls for, so that when I mate them to the steel outer rims I can do a clean up pass on both sides. There is a tremendous lot of work in those two buggers---Its 4:35 now, and I started at 9:00 this morning. I still have to add the holes in the webs, but thats a job for another day.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/FLYWHEELSONENGINE001_zpsa24d2b9c.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/FLYWHEELSONENGINE002_zpsf42147ce.jpg

sasquatch
02-13-2013, 05:16 PM
Looks good, now you do need a rest, put your'e feet up, and ponder tommorrows procedures.

ammcoman2
02-13-2013, 06:47 PM
Brian,

You are flying along. But I think it is time for "Rotary Table lesson 201" and it is not too late to delve in.

Those flywheels would sure look good with curved spokes (Duclos' Shop Wisdom book on page 115). The fixture plate would make the cutting of the second one a breeze!

Geoff

brian Rupnow
02-13-2013, 07:22 PM
Geoff---I'm not old enough, or curious enough to make curved flywheel spokes. I know the science involved, and yes, I've read about them in the Duclos book. They look like the kind of thing that would make a great project by themself. Maybe some day when I'm reeeeealy bored-----Brian

brian Rupnow
02-14-2013, 12:13 PM
I've has a very "rotary table" morning!!! My little mill runs out of power at any drill much larger than 1/2" diameter and blows its $3 glass fuse, which is a royal pain in the keester. The solution---drill all the holes thru with a 3/8" drill, then go around and plunge mill them thru with a 3/4" endmill, then go around again and plunge mill them thru again with a 7/8" endmill. This works, but it makes for a lot of cranking. Now, on to the exciting part---turning the sections of steel mechanical tubing to finished size and facing them. The maximum capacity of my lathe chuck is 5 3/8" diameter with the reversed jaws in it. The steel tubing is 5" o.d.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/FLYWHEELSDRILLEDANDMOUNTED001_zpsef9651c1.jpg

The Artful Bodger
02-14-2013, 02:40 PM
Clamp those rings to your face plate?

brian Rupnow
02-14-2013, 03:25 PM
Nope--do them in the 3 jaw chuck. First operation is to set one of them against the jaws, clamp them, turn half the o.d., face the exposed face, and bore the center all except for the last 1/32" closest to the jaws to finished size. Mark the part to correspond with one of the jaws, flip it around in the chuck, set it tight against the face of the jaws, match the mark you just made up to the same jaw, machine the other half of the o.d. to match the first half, machine away the remaining exposed face untill you've eaten up that remaining 1/32 that wasn' bored. Keep on machining the face untill you are within 1/32" of finished thickness.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/MACHININGFLYWHEELRINGS001_zps40b9fa97.jpg

sasquatch
02-14-2013, 05:50 PM
Very nice looking flywheels!! Good work!!

brian Rupnow
02-14-2013, 06:16 PM
Thank you Sasquatch. Good Lord, these things look monstrous when on the engine!!! I have worked all day, hoping to get both flywheels finished and Loctited to set up overnight, but I've simply ran out of steam!!! The one on the engine is finished. The other one still needs about an hours work before it can be Loctited. After they have set up for 24 hours, I will mount them on a 3/8" arbor with a keyway so that nothing slips, and do the final finish cuts on both sides and the outer diameter. These will be very light cuts, with a newly ground tool, just to merge the aluminum and steel better visually at the parting line. The outer diameter of the steel and the outer corners need some finish work to avoid cutting fingers. The one in the picture was a perfect fit. Couldn't have machined the steel outer rim any better to fit the aluminum flywheel!!! The steel rim still on the lathe---its ended up being what I would deem a "slop assed" fit.--Its about .003 oversize. Thats what I get for not having a micrometer large enough to measure 3.625". Verniers do it to me every time. Its not really a big deal. I will take my automatic punch and punch around the o.d. of the aluminum flywheel. This will upset the metal enough that it will go from a sloppy fit to a "snug" fit, which I try to obtain, but only achieve about half the time.....
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/FIRSTFLYWHEELWITHRIM001_zps5d935af9.jpg

John Stevenson
02-14-2013, 06:30 PM
Brian,
We get these scam calls all the while, you ask them if they are Microsoft and they tell you they are so you then ask them how come they are able to see files on a mac computer ?


Click..................

brian Rupnow
02-15-2013, 03:28 PM
Both flywheels are finished. A ton of work, but they run true and look quite good. The mild steel mechanical tubing is 1018/1020 and is miserable stuff to get a good finish on at that large diameter in my relatively small lathe. However, 180 grit followed by 220 grit emery paper can remove a lot of surface sins. My plan all along has been to paint these flywheels when finished, as the outer rims will eventually rust from humidity in the air if left untreated.My next step will probably be to cut keyways in both ends of the crankshaft.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/FLYWHEELSWITHRIMSFINISHED001_zps719b217c.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/FLYWHEELSWITHRIMSFINISHED002_zps326a6d30.jpg

sasquatch
02-15-2013, 03:51 PM
Nice, just curious if you weighed them?

Toolguy
02-15-2013, 04:10 PM
Hi Brian-

The engine is coming along very well! Is that a jitterbug sander surface finish? It looks good. Thanks for taking us along for the ride!

Best Regards - Warren

brian Rupnow
02-15-2013, 05:19 PM
Nice, just curious if you weighed them?
No, but calculation brings the steel outer rims to 2.3 pounds each. If you allow a bit for the aluminum centers, they would go about 2 1/2 pounds each.

brian Rupnow
02-15-2013, 05:21 PM
Warren---Yes, its a jitterbug sander finish with well worn 120 grit paper. (An artifact left over from my custom auto painting years).---Brian

brian Rupnow
02-15-2013, 07:02 PM
Here is an interesting comparison shot of the Odds and Ends hit and miss engine compared to the Kerzel hit and miss engine. I built the Kerzel 3 years ago, and it has a 3/4" bore and a 0.8" stroke. The Odds and Ends engine has a 1" bore and a 1 3/8" stroke. The Kerzel has 3 1/2" diameter flywheels, while the Odds and Ends engine has 5" diameter flywheels. There is a big visual difference when you see the two engines side by side.
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f31/brian-builds-kerzel-hit-miss-i-c-10091/
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/KERZELCOMPARISON001_zps5ea0f055.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/KERZELCOMPARISON002_zpsc3e0a4fc.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-16-2013, 11:55 AM
Today I am in "recovery mode" from the great flywheel thrash. I have been warned by goodwife to not get all dirty running those "machines in the basement", as we have to attend a birthday party this afternoon for an old friend who just turned 100 years old. Being the sort of guy who can take a hint, I've ran no machines today!!! I have spent the morning doing up the carburetor/exhaust/valve body for this engine in 3D cad. This helps me to figure out what I am going to do next, and gives me a better understanding of how it all fits together.------and keeps goodwife happy.--Don't get very dirty doing cad work.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ASSEMBLY-ODDSNENDS-WITHCARB_zps1fb01dbb.jpg

Jaakko Fagerlund
02-16-2013, 02:51 PM
Looking good Brian :) How is the iginition done on this engine? And what do you use to produce the spark?

brian Rupnow
02-16-2013, 04:20 PM
Jaakko-- There is a mechanical drawing of fabricated breaker points operated by a mechanical cam, but the rest is more or less up to the builder. The plans show a 12 volt automotive coil and condenser, very basic diagram. I haven't really thought that far ahead myself yet.

brian Rupnow
02-16-2013, 07:14 PM
In keeping with my theme of doing at least one thing each day, I came home from the birthday party and did-----one thing!!! I machined the keyways into the crankshaft. This sounds easy, but the problem is, "How the heck do you hold something like this??" You have to hang onto one end in the vice, and machine the other end which sticks out what seems like a mile, unsupported. I don't use an endmill for keycutting. I use a woodruff key cutter, which gives a much more accurate keyway. On the first keyway, I backed up the shaft with an angle plate opposite the cutter to help curb the sideways deflection. This created some problems of its own, so the other end was cut while just sticking out into space. It did deflect a little bit, but I just took 3 or 4 "spring cuts" when I had reached the depth I wanted, and when it quit cutting I was done. They turned out good, and I have already fitted the flywheels and stuck a piece of 3/32 square key in to make sure I had cut deep enough, and its okay. How was the 100 year old guy at the birthday party??--Physically, great!!! Mentally---not so much. He was very pleased to have everyone attend his party, posed for about a thousand pictures, and got a speech from the reeve and a letter from the prime minister. I'm not sure he really recognized anyone there, but he had a great time.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/KEYWAYSINCRANK-2001_zps90a2f776.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-17-2013, 09:23 AM
This engine has a rather interesting fabricated ignition point set up on it. It is attached with a clamp bolt to the extended hub of one of the crankshaft bearings. It has an extended handle on it, and by rotating the handle (and consequently the entire bracket) you can alter the ignition timing while the engine is running.---as long as the clamp bolt isn't clamped too tightly. I'm not sure whether this is a good feature, a bad feature, or just a unique feature that doesn't do that much, but its interesting, and I haven't seen that before.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ASSEMBLY-ODDSNENDS-IGNITIONPOINTS_zps14e3c3ca.jpg

JCHannum
02-17-2013, 09:33 AM
It is unique, but having built the engine, I would recommend using the more common small auto point set up with fixed attachment. I believe you did this on the Kerzel engine.

brian Rupnow
02-17-2013, 10:48 AM
I have used the chysler ignition points on all my other engines. What do you see wrong with this fabricated point set up?---Brian

JCHannum
02-17-2013, 01:06 PM
There is nothing really wrong with the design per se. But, it offers no real advantage over the automotive points set while it adds another layer to the difficulties in getting a model engine to run. The points require fiddling to get aligned properly and are easy to get misaligned. They are not tungsten as the auto points and are subject to wear. The mount is not positive and it is possible to bump the adjusting lever, knocking it out of time if the model is moved between runs requiring yet more fiddling to get it running again.

The set up can be made to work, and there is some very minor advantage to being able to fine tune the timing while the engine is running. If I were to build the engine again, I would not use that design for points.

brian Rupnow
02-17-2013, 04:17 PM
Jim--I'll probably build this design, just because it is different, and it will be cheap, as I have lots of small bits of aluminum. My time isn't worth too much either unless I've got an engineering job going. If I can't make it work, I always have the Chrysler points to fall back on.

brian Rupnow
02-17-2013, 08:45 PM
Today was one of those "bits and pieces" days. Hiding just inboard from the one mounted flywheel is the ignition cam. At the other end of the crankshaft you can see the sliding spool that the governor arms move back and forth, and laying on the bench next to the other unmounted flywheel is the bracket from which the governor arms pivot. I managed to fit these parts in between taking goodwife out to lunch and having granddaughters over for a sleep-over tonight. The youngest granddaughter shows a lot of promise---she comes down to Poppa's machine shop and wants to know what the different machines are and what they do. The older granddaughter is far more interested in helping grandma in the kitchen.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/BITSANDPIECES001_zps672093ed.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-18-2013, 05:44 PM
Four little parts made today. These are the weights for the centrifugal governor. However, don't let the little size fool you. There is still a lot of work there. This is one of the times I would have liked to speak with Philip Duclos and ask him why he made such a simple thing so complicated. Maybe its just the difference in machine designers, but I would simply have tapped each side of the weights for a #2-56 screw, instead of the sliding rod design that he has. Those screws anchor the tension springs between the governor weights. At any rate, his drawings are accurate and easy to follow. I redraw them anyways, because he dimensioned everything in 64ths, 32nds, and 16ths. It s hard to find those fractions on any of my equipment, so by redrawing them they get converted to decimals, which I can work with.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GOVERNORWEIGHTS001_zps8e1401e4.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GOVERNORWEIGHTS002_zpsfaf80d51.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-19-2013, 11:45 AM
These are the little guys that always give me heart spasms. They are the arms for the centrifugal governor, and they are so small that they are hard to see, let alone work on. You can only get them "close" using conventional machining techniques. Then it is fit and file and emery cloth untill they free up and work in tandem with all the other parts. These are still not finished. They require a bit of 4 jaw work in the lathe, then get soldered to the weights in the previous post.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GOVERNORARMS001_zpsee852aeb.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-19-2013, 03:17 PM
This was an afternoon of mucking about with itsy bitsy pieces. I managed to get everything silver soldered together without too much mess, then cleaned up and fitted/installed. I have shown the governor weights and arms at both maximum amnd minimum travel, from both sides of the flywheel. That spool that the ends of the arms engage in slides back and forth about a total of 5/32" on the crankshaft. The other slot in the spool is where the lockout arm for the exhaust valve fits into. The tension springs which hold the weights in the closed position are not yet installed, but you can see the #2-56 tapped holes in the sides of the weights..
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GOVWEIGHTSINSTALLED001_zps0b2ddc2b.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GOVWEIGHTSINSTALLED002_zps2b8938e0.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GOVWEIGHTSINSTALLED003_zps2f9ff703.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GOVWEIGHTSINSTALLED004_zps12b2ff85.jpg

Deja Vu
02-19-2013, 06:22 PM
Hi Brian,
Looking real nice as usual!
Say! I just got one of those phone calls just like your description earlier in this thread. The guy wanted $100 to fix the unusual and useless? files in my INF folder. I played with him for a while and finally he hung up when I said I would just reinstall windows. He wanted me to fill out a form giving him my credit card number. Man! I should have tracing abilities here on the phone...I really kept him on line a long time....

brian Rupnow
02-20-2013, 06:03 PM
The name of the game today, was Rocker Arm!!! I love the look of brass on an engine, for the contrast, and I find it lovely stuff to machine. I only dislike brass when I have to BUY it. Fortunately there were enough left over bits and bobs in my brass drawer to make up the two piece rocker arm, and a couple of bits of 3/16" cold rolled, one for the pivot shaft, and one silver soldered to the rear rocker arm for the governor latch lever to interact with. I still have to make a very small cam follower wheel that is attached to the end of the rocker arm that hides in behind the flywheel.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ROCKERARMS006_zpsffafb1ab.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ROCKERARMS007_zps002d9901.jpg

sasquatch
02-20-2013, 07:55 PM
Darn, that thing is looking Sweet!! Real nice work!!

Deja Vu
02-20-2013, 08:35 PM
I like your camera angles! They really show the details.

brian Rupnow
02-21-2013, 11:04 AM
This morning, after some rather "delicate" work, I made up the steel cam follower and shoulder bolt. You can see the cam follower in contact with the single cam lobe in one picture. I chickened out on making the shoulder bolt---simply too small for me. I cheated by machining the correct size of shoulder (.156" diameter), drilling it 0.109", and loctiting it onto a #4-40 socket head cap screw. The cam follower seems to turn freely by finger pressure. I have also included a picture of the rocker arm with the cam follower and governor latch post assembled to it. Now----I am in deep doo doo. Last fall we recarpeted the entire house, including the stairs which lead upstairs from my basement workshop. We were smart enough to use an industrial type carpet on the stairs, which was a close color match with the carpet in the rest of the house. Over the course of the winter, I have made so many trips up and down the stairs that there are two very distinct "tracks" up the carpeted stairway that correspond perfectly to my shoes---and the cutting oil which has clung to the bottom of them. Yesterday I hand cleaned the stairs with an industrial cleaner. This morning I cleaned the stairs again with some kind of powder which is gauranteed to pick up oil residue from carpet fibers.---and it worked quite well. Now I am off to the shoe store to buy a pair of slip on "toe rubbers" to wear over my shoes when I'm in my shop. Wife still loves me, but it was a close thing!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/camfollower001_zps2c6509eb.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/camfollower-2001_zps73f02db1.jpg.

tdkkart
02-21-2013, 01:24 PM
I am in deep doo doo. Last fall we recarpeted the entire house, including the stairs which lead upstairs from my basement workshop. We were smart enough to use an industrial type carpet on the stairs, which was a close color match with the carpet in the rest of the house. Over the course of the winter, I have made so many trips up and down the stairs that there are two very distinct "tracks" up the carpeted stairway that correspond perfectly to my shoes---and the cutting oil which has clung to the bottom of them. Yesterday I hand cleaned the stairs with an industrial cleaner. This morning I cleaned the stairs again with some kind of powder which is gauranteed to pick up oil residue from carpet fibers.---and it worked quite well. Now I am off to the shoe store to buy a pair of slip on "toe rubbers" to wear over my shoes when I'm in my shop. Wife still loves me, but it was a close thing!!!


I've become convinced that carpet is just the wrong thing to use in any house where the occupants actually lead a functional life, except for MAYBE in the bedrooms. Impossible to keep clean and actually gets quite nasty if you slack on housekeeping at all. It was fine back in the days when the Missus stayed home and had time to clean, but in working households those things do not neccesarily happen.
We are currently remodeling our family room to include laminate floor, and the rest of the main floor will be close behind.

brian Rupnow
02-21-2013, 02:15 PM
Our house is a side split. The upper bedrooms and hall are carpeted. The main floor is all done in gunstock oak and laminate in the kitchen. The stairs which I got dirty are really the only carpet on the main floor living area.

brian Rupnow
02-21-2013, 07:22 PM
I made two of these little rascals this evening. The one closest to the detail drawing was made first. I didn't think it was quite good enough, so I made a second one. (farthest away)-----It turned out worse!!! To be truthfull, I am not good at these tiny parts with complex shapes. The only good thing about it is that these little engines are very foregiving.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GOVERNORPAWL004_zpsb8599492.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-22-2013, 11:43 AM
My 1" diameter cast iron rings from Coles Power Models came in the mail today, for what I consider a very reasonable price. This will be a first for me, as far as model engines are concerned. My only experience with rings comes from building engines for the hotrods I used to race. I clearly remember how little you have to deflect one of these rings, trying to install it on a piston, and SNAP---broken ring!!! Certainly hope that doesn't happen here. As some guidelines for the ring groove in the piston, Philip Duclos recomends that the ring groove be .0005 wider than the ring thickness, and the depth of groove should be .002" deeper than the thickness of the ring, in the book section about the Odds and Ends engine. Then in his section about making your own piston rings, he recommends an end gap of .004" when the ring is setting squarely in the cylinder. Do you experienced engine builders concurr with that? The bore on my engine is1.00".
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CASTIRONRINGS001_zps25e4e8d1.jpg

topct
02-22-2013, 12:12 PM
.004 sounds right for a 1 inch bore.

brian Rupnow
02-22-2013, 02:40 PM
And here is the part which I hope with all of the sincerity in my black old heart becomes the basis for a workable ignition point set up. (just inboard of the ignition cam). I still have to add a piece of spring steel and an insulating bushing. Philip Duclos recommends using a section of broken hacksaw blade!!! Some people that have built this engine say that it works great. Some people say it only works with modifications, and some say it don't work at all. I know that the material cost nothing but the machining has just eaten up 5 hours out of my day. I will post a picture when I get all the small bits added to it.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ignitionpointfixture001_zps131127dd.jpg

Jaakko Fagerlund
02-22-2013, 03:18 PM
I use hacksaw blades as springs in many places, especially as replacements for old flat springs that have cut off. The material makes a difference: some hacksaw blades are high carbon steel and snap cleanly when trying to bend (the cheapest ones) and all the shatter proof blades just bend and set if bent too much.

brian Rupnow
02-23-2013, 01:28 PM
Here is a video you will find interesting. It concerns the "home made" ignition points on the Odds and Ends engine.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/th_ODDSANDENDSIGNITIONPOINTS_zpsd5c9f333.jpg (http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/ODDSANDENDSIGNITIONPOINTS_zpsd5c9f333.mp4)

Robg
02-23-2013, 02:08 PM
Being a Journeyman Mechanic, I can tell you that the rule of thumb for ring end gaps is .004 per inch of bore. Measure the gap with the ring only in the bore using a feeler gauge.

Robg
02-23-2013, 02:26 PM
I should have included this in my previous post, but here it is anyway. Concerning ignition points of the commercial variety, you may want to consider a set from the Chev V-8 (early '70's). They have a condenser built in and the gap is adjusted by way of an Allen wrench without the need to loosen any hold down fasteners to accomplish this. The assembly is bulkier than the Chrysler sets but the ease of adjustment would be a compensating factor. Very nice work!

brian Rupnow
02-23-2013, 03:06 PM
I just destroyed a 3/8 end mill, a 1/2" endmill, and a 1/4" brazed carbide boring bar---trying to open up a piece of brass!! I had one of those halogen lamps with the polished brass 1" dia tube stand. There were pieces of cast brass in the ends, and I tried to salvage one of the castings to make a cylinder oil cup. I don't know what on earth is in that piece of casting, but the damned thing must be harder than a diamond. It has now cost me more in tooling than if I had just went and bought a 12" length of 3/4" brass!!! Some days-------

brian Rupnow
02-24-2013, 09:46 AM
I'm getting down to the nitty gritty here, and I have ran out of brass----almost. I had enough of a 3/16" brass flatbar to cut the round muffler baffle out of, and drill it on the mill, using the rotary table. Then I thought I would be smart, and attempt to mill it down to the required .093" final thickness, in the rotary table, with an endmill. That never works for me!! Oh, it mills it down all right, but it leaves "tracks" all over the surface, and no matter how hard I try, I can never get all of the "depths of cut" to come out exactly the same. What to do, what to do. Then I remembered all the postings I had seen on here about "glue chucks". Okay, using what i currently have in my arsenal, I will create a "glue chuck". I had a short piece of 1.5" diameter cast iron x about 1 1/2" long setting around. I had some epoxy glue.---YES!!! Epoxy the brass disc to the face of the cast iron. When the epoxy sets, I will chuck the cast iron in the lathe chuck, and taking light cuts with a sharp hss cutter, final finish the face of the brass part in the lathe. Then break it away from the epoxy with a little heat, then dissolve the remaining epoxy with laquer thinners. Will it work?? I'll know later today. The model shows the baffle with the holes (its purple). The picture shows the part setting on the lip of my micro furnace, setting up the epoxy.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CARBURETOR-SUBASSEMBLY_zps220c727e.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/MUFFLERBAFFLE001_zpsdbe07acd.jpg

Jaakko Fagerlund
02-24-2013, 09:57 AM
Aother option is to finish it with sand paper etc. to get rid of the markings. At work I'd use a hand sized burr removal stone, it has a coarse and a fine side. First I use the coarse side with not-so-fast-evaporating-liquid and rub in figure 8's and circles until the machining marks are all gone and then finish with the fine side. Looks like a ground surface and leaves practically no markings whatsoever :) Gets rid of the bumps and burrs, too.

brian Rupnow
02-24-2013, 01:56 PM
Jaakko---the grooves left from milling were a bit too deep to sandpaper out. Hey!!! This glue chuck idea really works well!!! Of course, if I was smart, I'd have done it BEFORE I drilled all the holes. However, its something new that I hadn't tried before, and it does work remarkably well for thinning down stock which is already too thin to hold properly in a conventional chuck. I am very happy with the results, and will file this idea away for future use. The nice thing about it is that the stock being thinned doesn't have to be round. It can be any profile, simply glued to the end of a piece of round stock.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/gluechuck001_zps495ceda4.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/gluechuck002_zpsc7446a4e.jpg

sasquatch
02-24-2013, 02:28 PM
nice work again, thanks for the update!!

Deja Vu
02-24-2013, 04:20 PM
Any difficulty(or suggestions) getting the epoxy clean off the piece?

brian Rupnow
02-24-2013, 05:22 PM
Tried laquer thinners---no go. Tried wifes finger nail polish remover (which used to have acetone in it)---no go. Ended up running a drill thru the holes to get the epoxy out and sandpaper flap disc to get it off the sides. If I had been serious about trying this "glue chuck" business, I would have got some of the correct glue stuff (Not sure what it is.)---It can be easily dissolved with the right chemical.

sasquatch
02-24-2013, 05:53 PM
Hey!! That was Good Glue!!! keep some of that around.

jdunmyer
02-24-2013, 06:03 PM
Brian,
Is there a term for this kind of drawing? First pic in Post 154?

brian Rupnow
02-24-2013, 08:15 PM
Well Sir!!! I survived a massive two grandchild birthday party today, and still had time to whittle out a muffler after everybody went home. Oh, I know, the screws have to be shortened, and the brass need some more polishing, but the machining per se' is done on that item. There isn't too much more I can do untill I part with some of the Rupnow gold and buy some brass for all the carburetor bits. That muffler is a really tricky bugger to machine. You get to a point no matter which way you approach it where there is nothing to hang onto for the next machining operation. Its tapered inside the same as on the outside, with a 1/16" thick wall on the tapered part. I ended up Loctiting it onto a piece of 1/4" rod just so I had something to hang onto to finish all the machining inside and out. Now---I'm going upstairs---i think there was some birthday cake left-----
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/MUFFLER001_zps3287194a.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/MUFFLER002_zps28da2793.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-24-2013, 08:20 PM
Brian,
Is there a term for this kind of drawing? First pic in Post 154?
jDunmyer--That is just one of the fancy display modes in Solidworks, the 3D cad program I use to model all the parts. I leave it turned off because it drives me crazy when I'm actually working in the program, but sometimes I turn it on just for the snazzy reflections when i save it as a .jpeg to upload it to Photobucket. It has no practical value other than to make snazzy presentation drawings.

brian Rupnow
02-25-2013, 04:35 PM
I just spent half the day making very small parts. The "needle" is a #2-56 x 3/4" long socket head capscrew. I find that there is no practical way to hold these things to even consider machining them. My method is to hold the head of the screw in my small 3 jaw chuck (which used to be part of a 3/8" power drill with about 2" of shank still attached) and hold this small chuck in my lathe chuck. The head of this screw is only about .135 dia x 0.1" lg., so you can't even hold it perfectly straight, with no wobble. I get it as close as I can, and then use a small file to shape the needle and remove threads from the last 5/16" . Then a bit of 220 emery cloth held against the flat of the file to finish working it. Of course the lathe is running at about 600 rpm while I'm doing this, so its a touchy operation. Then I knurled and drilled a piece of 5/16" brass and silver soldered it to the head of the screw. The brass "seat" is tapped #2-56 inside, and there is a 0.040 hole thru the side to bleed gasoline into the venturi (which isn't built yet.) It is tested by blowing in the gas line end and slowly screwing the needle into place. It works. The needle completely shuts off the air flow when screwed down semi tight. If I was a much better machinist with a far more accurate lathe, I would drill out the #2-56 screw and solder a sewing needle in place, but its not going to happen in this life. I know this works, because its the same method I used on the Kerzel carburetor 3 years ago.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/NEEDLEANDSEAT002_zpsd6d6d18f.jpg

sasquatch
02-25-2013, 05:01 PM
Good work!! Very interesting project.

Steve Steven
02-25-2013, 05:10 PM
Did you consider a needle valve assembly from a model airplane engine? What you have made looks just like one.
Steve

brian Rupnow
02-25-2013, 05:55 PM
Steve--I've never messed with model airplane engines. I have used Traxxas carburetors on two of my engines, but these hit and miss carbs are pretty simple, so I will stay with the home made parts for now. Sasquatch---Your continued support is much appreciated.---Brian

jdunmyer
02-25-2013, 06:17 PM
There's a fella in Florida who has built and sold well over 800 (!) hit 'n miss engines, made mostly of aluminum. He uses a needle valve from a Fox model aircraft engine.

brian Rupnow
02-25-2013, 07:04 PM
There's a fella in Florida who has built and sold well over 800 (!) hit 'n miss engines, made mostly of aluminum. He uses a needle valve from a Fox model aircraft engine.
800 engines----All I can say is, He's a better man than me!!!

topct
02-25-2013, 07:15 PM
There's a fella in Florida who has built and sold well over 800 (!) hit 'n miss engines, made mostly of aluminum. He uses a needle valve from a Fox model aircraft engine.

That's quite outstanding.

sasquatch
02-25-2013, 07:27 PM
By building that many he must be retired,, and could whip one out pretty quickly!!

brian Rupnow
02-25-2013, 08:09 PM
Retired---Maybe not. Knowing what those engines sell for, he could be doing it as a "main job" business venture. People like myself struggle with these small engines, because they are "one ofs" to us, and each time we build one there is a rather intense learning curve, and we are not set up for multiple builds. However---IF you had cnc capabilities, and IF you build the same engine over and over, then you set up to make parts in "batch lots". I'm semi retired, but for all intents and purposes I've been retired for the last two months because there is no work right now. That means I have devoted a good share of each and every day for 5 or 6 weeks to building this one engine. I would hazard a guess that if you were set up properly, you could build at least one of these engines a week.

brian Rupnow
02-25-2013, 08:22 PM
I have reached a point in this build where I am "mildly concerned"!!! Not really alarmed yet, but could be if I thought about it too much. The two remaining assemblies which have yet to be built not only entail 4 jaw chuck work (Which makes me sweat blood) but also the intake and exhaust valves which have given me tremendous pain on every I.C. engine I have built so far (This being number four). Conventional wisdom says that the more you do of anything, the better you get at it. I have just went thru all of the posts on building the Webster, the Kerzel hit and miss, and the Atkinson engine, and I really hope that conventional wisdom is correct. My God, there's a lot of pain and frustration in those build threads!!! All of those engines eventually ran, and I had a lot of advise (mostly good advice) from other forum members. This build has been remarkably painless so far, and I really hope it stays that way.----And Oh yeah, I checked, and the valve seat cutting tool which I made from tool steel for the Atkinson engine (but didn't harden) can be modified to cut the valve seats on this new engine by reducing the guide diameter from 4mm to 1/8".----Brian

jdunmyer
02-26-2013, 08:31 AM
FWIW: "Bill", the fella in Florida, has NO CNC equipment, just a bunch of drill jigs. He has made a number of variations, but his engines are easily recognizable. I'm unsure if he's even still alive, I've not seen him in a couple of years now.

brian Rupnow
02-26-2013, 07:30 PM
The floor in my little machine shop was awash with nervous sweat today, but I persevered!!! TWO set ups in the 4 jaw and a lot of breath holding yielded the intake valve body. Near as I can tell, it turned out okay. I had to stop right in the middle of the job and drive across town to a tool shop and buy a new 1/8" reamer. The part I machined today is the red colored part in the 3D model. I haven't machined the valve seat into the part yet. I will use my valve seating tool to do that by hand.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CARBINTAKEBODY001_zps664fe205.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CARBINTAKEBODY003_zpsbc12fe3a.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/CARBURETOR-SUBASSEMBLY-X_zps5d7fae03.jpg

gbritnell
02-26-2013, 11:24 PM
Hi Brian,
It looks like your 4 jaw work came out well and don't sweat the valves, after making about 80 of them it becomes second nature.
gbritnell

brian Rupnow
02-27-2013, 07:45 PM
The 4 jaw work is all finished---And I'm very proud and pleased that it all went okay!!! Everyone was right---It does get easier with practice. One of my customers called me in today with some real work, so progress may slow down a bit. I still have to make valves, and cut ring grooves on the piston for the two cast iron rings that I purchased.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/INTAKEANDEXHAUSTASSEMBLY001_zpsd790b6fe.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/INTAKEANDEXHAUSTASSEMBLY002_zps75d6a2ec.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/INTAKEANDEXHAUSTASSEMBLY003_zpsdb2fcaf2.jpg

sasquatch
02-27-2013, 08:28 PM
Brass sure adds to just about anything,, looks good.

brian Rupnow
02-28-2013, 04:26 PM
I came home today at noon and wanted to build something easy. There aren't very many easy things left to do, but I needed a cylinder oil cup and control needle valve so thats how I spent my afternoon. Now I'm off to the denturist to pick up new upper and lower false teeth. This has been an ongoing process for the last 3 months with impressions, more impressions, and fittings. The last time I was over there for a final fitting he gave me a hand mirror, and my God, I thought I was looking at a crocodile!!! I don't remember ever having that many teeth of my own, at least not all at the same time. My youth took a terrible toll on my natural teeth.--Between fist fights, car accidents, and too many candies, I had my first upper plate when I was 21. Watch for me---I may be a guest star on "Wild Kingdom"!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/OILCUP001_zps4946c7f1.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/OILCUP002_zps03a08ae0.jpg

sasquatch
02-28-2013, 05:03 PM
re: "Fist Fights, Car accidents, and Too Many Candies",, Lol,, been there too.

As my old friend used to say:

"Lessons From The School of Life!"

brian Rupnow
03-01-2013, 10:41 AM
This morning I made the intake and exhaust valves and ground the seats, using 600 grit carborundum past, by hand. After a thourough cleaning, I coated the intake valve and the intake seat with layout dye, and after it had dried for half an hour, I applied a bit more 600 grit and lightly ground the intake again. I think that the annular contact ring where the contact point wore the layout dye away on both the valve and the seat is visible in this picture. Its a nice round continuous ring, with no gaps, and it passes the old "blow by mouth" test and doesn't seem to leak at all. Of course, valves have fooled me before.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/INTAKEVALVEGROUND001_zps934ec8ba.jpg

brian Rupnow
03-01-2013, 10:51 AM
And ditto, the exhaust valve. Perfect contact ring all around on both valve and valve seat. Its harder to see clearly on the exhaust valve, because the seat is down inside the housing about half way. I'm sure you have figured it out by now that I haven't parted the valves off from the parent stock. I do it this way so I will have something to hold onto when I grind (or lap if you prefer) the seats and valve faces. The calves are made from 1018/1020 mild cold rolled steel.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/EXHAUSTVALVEGROUND001_zps5b1b59fc.jpg

brian Rupnow
03-01-2013, 07:06 PM
This picture shows a rather unique idea I have had about "seating" the valves. I may be all wet here, but as we all know, these small engines undergo a dramatic rise in compression after thay have ran for a while. Everything, including the valves and the rings just seem to seal so much better after a bit of "running in" time. What I have done is install the valve springs and keeper plates and mounted the assembled valve bodies in my milling vice. I have ground a cam and mounted it on a 1/4" arbor, mounted in my milling chuck. I am letting it run untill the valve opens and closes approximately 1000 times for each valve, both intake and exhaust. Of course, the flash on the digital camera "freeze frames" the action, but the mill is running at about 200 rpm. This may not do anything beneficial---I simply don't know. However, it doesn't cost anything, and it can't hurt. The valve body is liberally coated with light engine oil, and the cam face has a "dab" of axle grease on it to prevent scoring the cam or bending the valve stem. The cam is ground so that the opening of the valve is a gradual rise, while the closing "falls off a cliff" to impart the inertial of the steel valve to the brass seat.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/RUNNINGINVALVES001_zps60775e21.jpg

sasquatch
03-01-2013, 07:38 PM
Good setup, i can see that working. Good time to get things operational before being installed on the engine.

brian Rupnow
03-02-2013, 11:54 AM
I am in final assembly phase this morning. Just now getting to the piston rings. Book states "With ring setting squarely in cylinder bore, end gap of ring should be 0.004" as checked with feeler gauge". Ring is in there. Gap is dead nuts on both rings as checked by yours truly!!! Now if we can get the grooving tool ground properly and cut ring grooves in the piston and then install the rings without breaking them-----
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/RINGGAP001_zpse571ccd9.jpg

brian Rupnow
03-02-2013, 01:12 PM
Ring grooves have been added to piston and rings installed. A LOT of breath holding and very light pressure and lots of lube oil!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/RINGSINSTALLED001_zps351bb38b.jpg

sasquatch
03-02-2013, 04:57 PM
Your'e getting CLOSE!!! (As the tension Builds!!!) Lol

brian Rupnow
03-02-2013, 06:59 PM
As Ringo says "You know it don't come easy!!!" Tried to insert the piston into the cylinder---It wouldn't go. The ring grooves weren't cut deep enough in the piston. Carefully took the rings off, machined the grooves deeper--Put the rings back on. The cylinder goes in (with much carefull persuasion)---No broken rings (yet). Piston will go to within .100 of TDC and hangs up--won't go any farther. Disconnect con rod, pull piston, determine that there is a tight spot in the cylinder---right at the far (blind) end. Scratch head, time out--Sat in Lazy Boy, had stiff drink. Decided that the only way to take out tight spot is with a lap and coarse cutting compound. Made lap--Used some of the automotive valve grinding compound I bought 3 years ago at NAPA which is far, far, to course to grind tiny valves but good for tight spots in cylinders. Didn't want to lap the rest of the bore, so squeezed coarse compound in thru sparkplug hole and inserted clean lap so that only the last 1/2" of the bore got lapped. It worked, but very scary indeed. Locked lap in 3 jaw, ran lathe on lowest speed (115 RPM)--held onto cylinder and water jacket and worked it back and forth about 1/4" for slow count of 100.--Being ready the whole time to just let the damn thing go if it started to lock up.---Didn't want to spend time going round and round on lathe chuck. All turned out well. Piston is reinserted, everything goes round and round. New rings make TREMENDOUS difference in power required to turn engine over. Tomorrow I will soak everything with oil and run the motor in for an hour with electric drill to seat the rings and get rid of the drag.

jdunmyer
03-02-2013, 07:07 PM
FWIW: Our Debolt engines use only a single ring. It seems to be enough. I think the Olds was originally designed to use 2 rings, but instructions were to use just one.

brian Rupnow
03-02-2013, 08:14 PM
Jim---Its easier to start with two and get rid of one if you don't need it, than the other way around. I know that on my Kerzel I started out with two O rings, and eventually got rid of one so there would be less drag on the engine. This is my first experience with cast iron rings. There is a tremendous amount of drag right now, but I'm hoping a lot of that goes away after the engine has been ran in.

brian Rupnow
03-03-2013, 10:24 AM
Running in engine video.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/th_RUNNINGINODDSANDENDSMOVIE_zps533888a4.jpg (http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/RUNNINGINODDSANDENDSMOVIE_zps533888a4.mp4)

brian Rupnow
03-03-2013, 03:32 PM
Things are currently going together for what I can only hope is the final assembly. The two hours of "running in" in the lathe, 1 hour at 115 RPM, 1/2 hour at 210 RPM and 1/2 hour at 350 RPM has made an incredible difference in the effort required to turn the engine over. Its now back to roughly the same resistance as it had before the rings were installed. I kept everything well soaked with oil during the entire "run in" time. Here is a little tip, which has been mentioned before, but it works so slick that its worth mentioning again. If you drew or modelled your engine with any kind of CAD system, then print out any surfaces which need gaskets at 1:1 scale, glue them to your preferred gasket material (I use cereal box cardboard) and cut them out with scissors and a home made gasket punch. The two shown are for the interface between the intake and exhaust valve bodies, and the interface between the valve body and the water jacket/cylinder. Nothing will get hot enough on this engine to damage the cardboard.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/GASKETS001_zpsade40e9d.jpg

sasquatch
03-03-2013, 04:46 PM
Two hours of run in time should be somewhat comparable to maybe 100 miles @ around 50 mph.(In a vehichle.)

jdunmyer
03-03-2013, 08:46 PM
Our last engine called for use of Permatex copper bearing silicone sealer instead of gaskets. Interestingly, I've R&R'd the ignitor numerous times and it still seals.

brian Rupnow
03-04-2013, 10:52 AM
A little "something something" to replace all of the 1/16" drill bits that I have used as pivot shafts for my counterwight arms and lock out lever. Nothing too exotic here. The steel pin goes through the pivotting bits and the brass collar goes on the other end with a dap of green Loctite.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/SOMETHINGSOMETHING001_zps5bc33903.jpg

brian Rupnow
03-04-2013, 11:50 AM
The engine is finished!!! It looks great. Oh, the base and a gas tank are still outstanding, but I'm not going to bother with them untill the engine runs. Will it run???????????? Thats the $64,000 question. The compression seems rather anemic, but it will stop when it comes up on compression if you flip it by hand. If (when) I get it to run, I know that the compression will increase dramatically. Thats the way all my other engines have been. I am not going to bore you with the next (trying to get it to run) part. That will be just a lot of hard slogging, tweaking, hoping, cursing---you know the routine. When its up and running, I will post some more, and hopefully, a video. Thanks ever so much for following my thread, for the constructive comments, and for helping out when I needed a bit of technical advice or a bit of encouragement.----Brian

Deja Vu
03-04-2013, 12:43 PM
When its up and running, I will post some more, and hopefully, a video. Brian
I'll be waiting to see new posts and a video from you, Brian. :)

Joel
03-04-2013, 03:02 PM
Congratulations on finishing! Outstanding work Brian.

sasquatch
03-04-2013, 04:59 PM
Those first few "POPS" are going to be a thrill to hear!!

brian Rupnow
03-04-2013, 05:13 PM
The plans call for a .013 dia. music wire spring with 12 coils and an inside diameter of 1/4"+ for the intake valve. I took a chance on an "off the shelf" spring from the hardware store that was .020 dia. wire, but its too stiff. If the spring is too stiff, the vacuum created when the piston moves down on the intake stroke won't be enough to overcome the spring tension, and the atmospheric intake valve won't open. I have a piece of .015 music wire I picked up yesterday at the local hobby shop (the smallest they had), so I am about to wind a spring from it. If it is still too heavy, I will visit a music store tomorrow and buy a guitar string of .013" diameter. As much as I want to rush ahead and try to start this engine, I have learned through my previous 3 i.c. builds that this stuff has to all be looked after BEFORE I try and start the engine.

Black Forest
03-05-2013, 01:40 AM
Brian, you wrote that you will not bore us with the details of getting the engine to run. That my friend is not allowed. Getting the engine to run and all the trials and tribulations of achieving that end are the interesting parts for some of us. So please bore us with the details.

Jaakko Fagerlund
03-05-2013, 03:58 AM
Yep, we want all the gory details please :)

And I really want to hear on video how that ignition point setup changes the motors running when it is adjusted.

brian Rupnow
03-05-2013, 09:25 AM
People are asking for a blow by blow description of the initial start up of this engine. Are you MAD!!!! The next few days will be a lot of things. It will be a confusion of cobbled up electrical wires---No need for them to be made neat and pretty untill the engine actually runs. It will be a time of "borrowed parts " from other engines---i.e. the gas tank off my Webster--again, no need to build a pretty dedicated gas tank if the engine never runs. The counterweights are wrapped with swaths of masking tape to keep them from operating. I don't have time to fool around with the intricacies of hit and miss mechanisms untill I see if the damned engine will fire in normal mode. I have a can of quick start ether. I have a fire extinguisher mounted on the wall beside me. I have warned my good wife to not be alarmed at the sound of explosions or curses drifting up the stairwell from the basement, but to be prepared to call 911 if everything goes totally cock-a-hoop. These are the times that turn lap dogs into ravening monsters, and put good Christian boys like myself in danger of their mortal soul.---And people want to see this in living colour with video as it happens!!! Here is my best offer---This is all the pics you get of the "just before" sequence. From here on we go into "black out" untill we have an operating engine. If you never hear from me again, you will know the engine never actually ran, and that I have taken up pole dancing as a hobby.----Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/INITIALSTARTUP001_zps64ecdaf4.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/INITIALSTARTUP003_zps20c2e24d.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/INITIALSTARTUP002_zps2dad2c33.jpg

brian Rupnow
03-05-2013, 05:55 PM
Okay----I lied!!! You are going to hear from me. I was not succesfull today. Long story short, I have hardly any compression due to a leaky exhaust valve. With a bit of CAD magic, you can see a cross section taken through the exhaust valve body and the exhaust valve. The threaded outlet on the left side is where the muffler screws into. The hole in the right side is the port which leads into the cylinder. The big hole up top is plugged by the intake valve assembly when its all put together. I believe (and this is only conjecture at this point) that the seat area is too close to the port into the cylinder. I THINK this causes some distortion of the seat area which causes the leak. The head of the valve is .375" diameter. The stem is .125" diameter. The hole that the head of the valve sets in is .437" diameter, cut with a .437 endmill to achieve the flat bottom. The 45 degree seat is cut with a manual seating tool which is guided by a "nose" that fits into the valve guide, to ensure concentricity. The exhaust valve body is a complex part, which I seriously do not want to make over again. I think the valve is fine too. I think there is enough room between the seat and the outlet to the muffler, that I can set this part up in the mill, line it up with a 7/16" dowel in the mill chuck to be perfectly concentric, and shove that .437 counterbore down another .030". That will get rid of the existing seat, leaving me an area in which I can recut a new seat. The valve will set a bit lower in the housing, but there is lots of adjustment in the rocker arm to accomodate that.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/EXHAUSTVALVEBODYWITHVALVE_zps16ac6130.jpg

sasquatch
03-05-2013, 06:52 PM
Does this mean we have been censord?

SHOOT, here we are a bunch of guys who can handle loud backfires and loud cursing, along with a few , "Oh you SOB!!!

brian Rupnow
03-06-2013, 11:01 AM
I have reached what my dictionary describes as an "im'passe"--"position, situation from which there is no escape; deadlock"!!! I have relapped the valves, starting with 350 grit, then 400 grit, then 600 grit, then toothpaste. I have compression.--In fact, on a free spin by hand, it bounces back from the compression stroke. HOWEVER-- this is when piston and valve bodies have a light coating of lubricating oil. When I try to start it, the Coleman fuel (which is tarted up naptha gas, so they can charge more for it) refuses to fire. Then, after not firing, it has the audacity to wash away all my lubricating oil, right down to the point where all sliding and sealing surfaces are metal to metal. Then of course, my compression drops off dramatically. I have a bright blue spark at the sparkplug, and it is firing at the correct time in the cycle. The exhaust valve is timed correctly, and I have rotated the engine by hand and carefully watched it go through all the four cycles, intake, compression, power, and exhaust. All of the appropriate things move at the appropriate time. Checked with a feeler gauge, there is clearance between the end of the exhaust valve stem and the rocker arm when the rocker is off the cam. I have wound a new spring from .015" music wire for the intake valve and have a fairly stiff spring on the exhaust valve to assure that it pulls the valve closed properly. I am running out of options at the moment, and that is what made me ask about propane for a fuel in another post. At least with propane, if the engine floods, its not going to wash away all of my lubricating oil. These are the times that try model engine builders souls, and I have went through this with every single one of the internal combustion engines I have built (and ran succesfully, this is my fourth engine.) I'm not sure where I'm going next with this, but I will keep you posted.---Brian

JCHannum
03-06-2013, 11:39 AM
Belt it up to an electric motor and get it turning over at a couple hundred RPM. Then begin to add fuel. Eventually it will begin to fire and sort of run. Let it run this way for a while to get things to settle in.

I think Gingery espoused this method.

brian Rupnow
03-06-2013, 03:12 PM
Thanks Jim--That is what has been suggested over on HMEM as well. I don't have any gear reductions or low speed small motors, but I can always stick it back in the lathe a'la my "run in" method.---Brian

JCHannum
03-06-2013, 03:27 PM
Turn up a flat faced pulley with a shank to fit your favorite vari-speed drill motor, add a couple of hose clamps and have at it.

Jon Heron
03-06-2013, 04:04 PM
What about adding some oil to the fuel until its gets broke in?
2 stroke if you have it, if not not any oil would work, I would mix it at 50:1.
Good luck!
Jon

EVguru
03-06-2013, 04:21 PM
What about adding some oil to the fuel until its gets broke in?
2 stroke if you have it, if not not any oil would work, I would mix it at 50:1.
Good luck!
Jon

That's a worthwhile trick, but I'd go with some genuine bean juice (castor oil).

brian Rupnow
03-06-2013, 05:31 PM
Jim---You were right. I donkeyied it up with a v-belt pulley in place of the one flywheel and a second v-pulley on my vari-speed drill, and an old v-belt. Motor took right off firing like a trooper after about 30 seconds of running with the drill. I don't have anything set up good enough to take a picture, but your advise helped a lot. Thank You!!!---Brian

brian Rupnow
03-06-2013, 06:31 PM
I'm not sure that congratulations are called for yet----but thanks. You kind of have to picture this.---Engine is bolted to my reference table in my office. The non-governor flywheel has been replaced with a 3" v-belt pulley. The electric drill has a 2 1/2" pulley mounted on a stub arbor. I want to see if the drill has enough guts to drive things this way, so I'm holding the drill in two hands with the belt loose, and just before I fire up the drill I figure "Oh Hell, may as well hook up the battery wire!!!" I start the drill, pull the belt tight, and the engine starts to turn over---and almost immediately starts to fire POP-POP-POP!!! This surprises me to no end, but I can't let go of the drill because it takes two hands to keep the belt tight. I let go of the drill with one hand to twiddle with the throttle valve, but then I can't keep the belt tight with only one hand on the drill, and the motor stops. I repeat this about 3 times--UNBELIEVABLE!!! Then I decide that I need to make a more stable set up with the drill bolted to the table in its "holder/stand (remember the sawmill video). Tomorrow may be an exciting day.

brian Rupnow
03-06-2013, 07:17 PM
So here we are, all set up and ready to rock and roll tomorrow morning. Don't be alarmed about the rats nest of wires---I know where they all go, and they will all be tacked down and taped up before I try to start anything. ( I have been witness to loose wiring getting caught up in revolving parts before, and it isn't pretty!!!) Wish me luck!! See ya tomorrow.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/STARTUP001_zpsc52e4169.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/STARTUP002_zpse26f9770.jpg

sasquatch
03-06-2013, 07:28 PM
Can't wait till tommorrow!! (And hear the Pop Pop Pops, and the shouts of "COWABUNGA"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jaakko Fagerlund
03-06-2013, 11:03 PM
Good luck for tomorrow! If the original fuel doesn't work, then you can claim victory for a diesel type engine :)

brian Rupnow
03-07-2013, 03:10 PM
No joy yet. I did manage to go to the local vaccuum cleaner repair joint and find a nice flat belt so I can run it on my flywheel rather than on the v-pulley. I made up a flanged pulley from 2" round aluminum for the electrric drill. the engine definitly is firing and getting warm. Just not taking off on its own yet. I added some 2 stroke oil to the coleman fuel.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/secondbelt002_zps1b7b238c.jpg

Jaakko Fagerlund
03-07-2013, 04:53 PM
Too much friction in the cylinder for the size?

brian Rupnow
03-07-2013, 05:20 PM
Too much friction in the cylinder for the size?
No, its spinning quite freely now after all of this running trying to get it started. I do notice that when I block off the intake and exhaust ports with the fingers of one hand and flip the flywheel with my other hand, I can hear some air escaping out the end of the cylinder. This would never happen with viton o-rings. Could be that there is just enough compression lost past the cast iron rings to prevent ignition??? I have just checked, and the entire valve body and carb off the Webster (which I know runs good) will fit right onto this engine if I tapped two more holes in the water jacket/cylinder. I have checked everything else, and now I'm looking at alternate 'fixes' to get up and running. I have the choice of machining a new piston with a Viton o-ring, which would absolutely stop any air loss past the piston, or---I could mount the whole valve body/manifold/carburetor set up off the Webster onto this engine to prove/dissprove any thoughts about compression loss at the valves, or the efficiency of my home made carburetor. (The one on the Webster is a Traxxas airplane carb).

Jaakko Fagerlund
03-08-2013, 05:26 AM
I would probably test with that Viton sealed piston first, as this piston thing is the one that changed from your previous engines. Maybe the cast rings leak just enough.

Rosco-P
03-08-2013, 07:07 AM
Leaking piston ring? Did you test your cylinder/valves for compression before your break in or after? After the break in run, did you check the cylinder bore for scuffs, foreign material contamination or any signs of improper ring seating? How was the cylinder bore finished after boring? Don't see how changing the carb is going to compenate for an engine with weak compression.

wendtmk
03-08-2013, 09:45 AM
Brian,

Just curious. Where is the centerline of your fuel tank in relation to the carb? On all my R/C engines, unless they had a built in pump, the centerline of the fuel tank needed to be at least as high as the carb, if not higher.

Mark

brian Rupnow
03-08-2013, 04:53 PM
On this type of carburetor/engine, the top level of the fuel tank must always be between 1/2" and 3/4" lower than the center of the carb. This type of carb has no float nor shut off needle in it, and the gasoline will gravity feed and drownd the engine without fail. By the same token, these small displacements and venturi don't create a lot of lift either, so you don't want the fuel too much lower than that either or they become hard to start. Some people recommend putting a check valve in the gas line to prevent the fuel running back to the tank when the engine is shut off.

brian Rupnow
03-08-2013, 05:57 PM
Just got home from an all day trip up north to see my ancient mother (92). She's feeling good and looking healthier than I do. I have decided that the quickest, cheapest, nastiest thing I can do to see if my cast iron rings are leaking compression is to put some compressed air on the cylinder and see if I can hear or feel air escaping out the open end of the cylinder with 25 pounds pressure on the cylinder. Normally I would have made an adapter to screw into the sparkplug hole, but I lack the required die to make a screw in spigot. However, I have dozens of short pieces of steel and brass laying around, so when I got home I quickly turned two spigots and glued them into the exhaust valve body and the intake valve body with "seal all". They can be quickly removed by applying a bit of heat to the outboard ends to soften the glue when I am finished with them. They both have a .100 hole thru the center, which will let me slip some silicone tubing over the ends and blow pressurized air through them via a regulator supplied from my air compressor. I'll let things set up for an hor and give it a try to see if I can find out what exactly is happening. I can very quickly make another piston with a Viton o-ring if the c.i. rings are leaking compression. I know that a Viton ring won't leak.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/SPIGOTS001_zps5f058a9c.jpg

brian Rupnow
03-08-2013, 07:19 PM
Okay---The results are in. At 25 to 40 psi applied thru the exhaust port, and the engine rotated by hand untill the lifter opens the exhaust valve, allowing pressurized air to enter the combustion chamber, there is no air escaping from the intake side of the carb, but I can hear a definite hiss of air escaping around the piston at the open end of the cylinder. With the air line hooked to the intake side of the valve body, and the intake valve depressed by hand so that air can enter the combustion chamber, no air is escaping from the exhaust valve side, but again I hear air hissing at the open end of the cylinder, and when the piston is at bottom dead center I can see see bubbles appear in the oil cup for the cylinder which is always "downstream" from the rings on the piston. This tells me 3 things--The intake valve is sealing properly when there is pressure in the combustion chamber. The exhaust valve is sealing properly when there is pressure in the combustion chamber, and the rings are not sealing regardless of where the piston is in the cylinder, as established by rotating the crankshaft through 360 degrees with the cylinder pressurized. Its not a real loud hiss, but its definitly a hiss. Now on a 4" diameter piston with a 4 or 5" stroke, a little hiss like I'm hearing wouldn't rattle me to much.---But, on a 1" dia. piston with a 1 3/8" stroke, any little hiss at all is bad news. Tomorrow I will build a new piston with a Viton o-ring. I may have to wait until Monday to get the o-ring.

J. R. Williams
03-08-2013, 10:12 PM
Replacing the piston rings with an O ring will work. As I recall you posted a photo of the piston with the rings installed making me wonder about the width of the ring compared to it's diameter. They look too wide. An old trick with worn rings was to hammer the inside of the ring opposite the gap to increase ring pressure on the cylinder walls. One company used to advertise "hammered " piston rings.

jdunmyer
03-09-2013, 09:38 AM
Some people recommend putting a check valve in the gas line to prevent the fuel running back to the tank when the engine is shut off.

Most H&M engines that use a simple suction carburetor like yours have a check valve in the fuel line to prevent drain-back during the 'miss' cycle. A common symptom of a stuck check valve is stalling at the end of the miss cycle, when the exhaust valve closes and the engine needs to suck fuel again.

Personally, I think your engine should run fine with C.I. rings, but they won't seal properly if you don't have a good finish in the cylinder. I've had several machinists tell me that the best/only way to assure a good finish is to use something like a Sunnen hone. We've had mixed success with our engines; the last one had to be finished with a Sunnen hone before it would run.

brian Rupnow
03-09-2013, 09:56 AM
jdunmyer--and how many home hobbyists do you know with a Sunnen Hone on their toolbench? I prepared my cast iron cylinder with a brake hone (the cheap ones with the 3 spring loaded expanding stones) and a lap made from 1" diameter aluminum. The finish on the inside of my cylinder was as good or better than any other engines I have built. I am still learning, and I learn more with every engine I build. Today I'm making a new piston and fitting it with a Viton o-ring. If the engine runs succesfully after that, I will have learned not to use cast iron rings again on my home hobby projects.-----And probably exactly because of what you said. I don't have the equipment (or perhaps the machining expertise) to get the finish required to run cast iron rings. As a point of interest, with the cylinder dismounted and the carb/valve bodies still in place, I blew into the cylinder by mouth untill I just about ripped a lung loose, and there is no air escaping from the valves nor from around the sparkplug.---

Jaakko Fagerlund
03-09-2013, 11:58 AM
I don't remember where I read it, but the IC engines are easy to start building with cast piston and cast cylinder and afterwards one can start switching the material pairs etc. In the end the writer said that once you have an engine with different materials on the piston, the rings and the cylinder, it is the most difficult to get working.

Good luck for that Viton route, I hope it pays off :)

brian Rupnow
03-09-2013, 12:11 PM
There we have it---a new aluminum piston configured for Viton o-rings. Started a t 10:00--finished at 12:00!!! I may not be getting better, but By God, I am getting faster!!!:p:p
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/newpistonforo-ring001_zpsa319db15.jpg

jdunmyer
03-09-2013, 01:15 PM
Brian,
I don't happen to have a Sunnen hone either, but a friend and neighbor does; I paid him to do the cylinders on our Star engines. Most of the fellas I talked with didn't have Sunnen hones themselves, one said he drove 100 miles to a shop to get his cylinder honed.

That said, your cylinder might well be perfect. Not only can I not see it directly, I'm not sure what "perfect" even looks like. In any case, your new piston/ring combination might be the ticket.

FWIW: A very experienced model engine builder told me a while back that he's found that engines with bores smaller than about 1.5" are much harder to get running than larger ones. All 3 of our engines are 1.5" or larger, and even they were a bit problematic. Actually, the Olds was VERY problematic until I came up with a carb modification. And this was a "proven" engine by a very experienced modeler.

brian Rupnow
03-09-2013, 02:15 PM
Okay---We got joy!!! We got so much compression now that the flat belt won't drive it---it just slips. I have went back to the adapter that drives right on the end of the crankshaft, and the engine is starting and running for short periods of time. Office is full of blue smoke. Twiddling ignition timing and fuel needle valve, trying to find the "happy" combination.

laddy
03-09-2013, 02:46 PM
Great News!!! I am so happy for you. I have a collection of non runners in steam and others Congrats! Fred

J. R. Williams
03-09-2013, 08:38 PM
Many years ago a standard piston ring break-in procedure for a single cylinder Cat diesel test engine was to slowly dump into the intake a quantity of "Bon-Ami" cleansing powder to seat the rings.

sasquatch
03-09-2013, 09:35 PM
Great news Brian!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yippeee!

(JR the Bon-Ami one i remember!!) Had forgot about that.

brian Rupnow
03-10-2013, 10:30 AM
This was my first ever attempt at running cast iron rings. The cylinder is cast iron, and the piston was cast iron. the rings were purchased from a reputable comppany in Texas, and they were visually perfect. I checked the ring gap in the cylinder, and it was perfect. The ring grooves I machined in the piston were as perfect as someone with 5 years machining experience, good machines, and a very good understanding of all things mechanical/technical could make them. The cylinder bore was drilled to withing .030" of full size, then reamed to size with a straight flute machine reamer in the lathe. Then it was rough honed with a spring loaded brake cylinder hone and very light machine oil to take out any large machining marks. Then it was lapped with an aluminum lap .001 to .002" smaller than the bore, using 600 lapping compound with the lap locked in the lathe turning at 115 rpm while the cylinder was held by hand and worked back and forth on the lap as it was turning for about 2 to 3 minutes. the cylinder was then flushed with laquer thinners and warm water and soap to remove any traces of lapping compound. The piston was an air tight fit in the cylinder. That is to say, it would fall thru the cylinder under its own weight, but when a coating of light oil was applied, one finger held over the end bore would stop the pistons movement because of the air trapped ahead of it. Thats about as good a fit as you can get. Why did the rings leak? I have no idea. The gaps were arranged at 180 degrees to one another. The piston with rings installed was at first terribly stiff in the bore of the cylinder, even when coated with light oil. After a 1 hour run im period on the lathe, using light oil during the whole breaking in process, the piston freed up to the point where it could be moved in the cylinder by rotating the crankshaft by hand. After I decided that the rings were not going to hold compression for me, I did some forensic examination. The rings were uniformly shiny all except for one area on the side of the top ring which was not as shiny as the rest of the ring. To a lesser extent there was the same "not quite so worn" area on the second ring, but on the opposite side. Perhaps, on a much longer run in perios the rings would have worn in more uniformly and sealed 100%. I don't know. This was my maiden trial with cast iron rings, and I won't use them again. Thousands have used them succesfully. Hundreds have used them and got the same poor results I did. When I put in the new piston I made yesterday morning with a 1/16" cross section Viton o-ring on it, it sealed immediately and totally, and gave me wonderfull compression. Thats all the information I can give you about my experience with cast iron rings.

J. Randall
03-10-2013, 09:51 PM
Brian, I think I would have honed for a good crosshatch pattern as the last operation instead of lapping it smooth. Would have given your cast iron rings a lot better chance of seating to my way of thinking. Glad you have got it running.
James

brian Rupnow
03-11-2013, 08:43 AM
Its not running yet, with any consistency. It starts, it runs, but it won't keep running. Compression is great. Ignition is great. I am making a device to turn an accurate needle valve at this time. I currently have no machine in my arsenal that will accurately turn a #2-56 needle valve. My current one is shaped with file and emery paper. I am currently building a foxture to mount my Dremel clone in my quick change toolpost to shape an accurate and uniform needle with. When the engine is running correctly I will post about it with a video.

jdunmyer
03-11-2013, 09:02 AM
Brian,
Sometimes, adding more air is the answer, it makes the needle valve adjustment much less critical.

Black Forest
03-11-2013, 09:04 AM
Brian,
Sometimes, adding more air is the answer, it makes the needle valve adjustment much less critical.

Yeah, add a SuperCharger!

jdunmyer
03-11-2013, 04:28 PM
BF,
I didn't really mean to add a supercharger, more like make the bore of the carb larger or even bleed in air downstream from the venturi. This lowers the vacuum a bit, thus requiring a more-open setting on the fuel needle valve. It can make the difference between something that is actually adjustable vs. a "light switch" effect.

brian Rupnow
03-11-2013, 08:18 PM
Jim---I'm going thru the whole spectrum, ruling out anything that would cenceivably keep this engine from running. I need 3 things--Compression--ignition, and fuel. The cast iron rings were bleeding compression, and the engine wouldn't even fire. I made a new piston and put a Viton o-ring on it, and immediately had good compression. The engine fires quite regularly now when being powered with the electric drill, but not enough to stay running more than 10 or 15 seconds after the drill is taken away. Okay, I'm down to ignition and fuel. Today I tried to make a new needle valve but wasn't terribly succesfull---I just don't have the right machinery for it. The rather hokey home made point set up is suspect also---So, today I "invented" a points mounting plate that will still be adjustable like the original design (I like that capability) but will use a set of tried and true Chrysler product ignition points. I designed it and machined it this afternoon, and tomorrow I will install it and hopefully eliminate any question about "ignition". I phoned all over North America today, trying to find a pre made needle valve with a 2-56 thread on it, but nobody has one. Some model airplane engines (Cox) has a needles valve for $4.00, but the thread is a #2-80 which is a proprietary thread and the tap is not available. I was just about to go online and check out toolpost mounted grinders from Little Machine Shop to use when making a new needle valve when I seen your message.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/SUBASSY--POINTSONBKGPLATE-ODDSNENDS_zps0fa01372.jpg

brian Rupnow
03-12-2013, 08:32 PM
The finished product is a little different than the pretty solid model. I determined that I didn't require the raised boss around the center hole, so the plate was machined from a left over flat piece of brass (from an earlier project). I cut the slot thru to the center hole with the bandsaw, as it is hidden in behind the flywheel when its all together. The points are early chrysler product #018-4126-8 A110P by BWD, purchased from Partsource. I like the fact that with this set-up there is some adjustability of the timing possible while the engine is running. I wired everything up when I was finished installing the new points and mounting plate, tested it for spark, and damned near electrocuted myself in the process. Now I know how Chief felt in "One Flew Over the Cuckoos's Nest".!!! I have some real engineering work at the moment, so haven't really persued anything about the needle valve as yet.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/newpointsandbrkt002_zpse1b0e4c6.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/newpointsandbrkt003_zps62e537ff.jpg

Black Forest
03-13-2013, 03:40 AM
Why couldn't you mount the piece of material you want to make the needle out of in a drill and then use a very fine belt on your belt grinder to make your needle. I have done that many times to polish a needle for my sewing machine. For polishing I use a scotchbrite belt. Works perfect. I have also done it many times to bring the diameter of a screw head down or the head of a bolt.

brian Rupnow
03-13-2013, 10:54 AM
Aha---Fooled me!!! It wasn't the needle valve preventing the engine from running. It was that hokey point set up. I gave it a quick try this morning and BINGO!!!! First run movie attached. The governor system isn't hooked up yet, and truly, I didn't expect it to start and run like it did.---Thus all the crap on my side desk doing the Hootchie Kootchy when it started right up and ran and I grabbed my camera.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/th_FIRSTRUN_zps6e7526eb.jpg (http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/ALBUM%20THREE/FIRSTRUN_zps6e7526eb.mp4)

JCHannum
03-13-2013, 11:09 AM
Gee, who would have thought that?

tdkkart
03-13-2013, 11:11 AM
There's spark, good spark, and REALLY good spark, and each works incrementally better, you can say all you want about the swindlers selling their wonder
coils, spark enhancers etc but there is merit to having the best spark you can get. Funky fuel mixtures, too rich, too lean, or intermittent, light much easier with good
spark.

Years ago I had the magneto coil die on a 5HP Briggs and Stratton that still had points. Needing the engine, I wired the points to an auto coil and ran it with 12V from my
garden tractor. VIOLA!!! BING!!! Holy Crap!!! There's never been a 5HP B&S that has run that well. The thing started with only half a pull of the rope ht or cold, ran super smooth and
would pull a healthy load at an idle speed. It was amazing. This was several years before I built my small engine dyno, and when I had the dyno operating I never got around
to trying the system on another engine but I know it would have shown power increases.

Congrats on yet another successful build, always enjoy reading your writings........

JSR
03-13-2013, 12:14 PM
Congratulations on another fine job, Brian

If you still have the piston with rings, it would be interesting to try it to see if the rings were the problem, or if it was ignition all along.

John

Jaakko Fagerlund
03-13-2013, 01:08 PM
Congratulations on another fine job, Brian

If you still have the piston with rings, it would be interesting to try it to see if the rings were the problem, or if it was ignition all along.

John
Congrats and yes, I would also like to hear how the piston with cast rings works now that you have a running engine :)

brian Rupnow
03-13-2013, 02:12 PM
Not going to happen guys. Remember, I couldn't get the engine to fire nor run at all with the cast iron rings. It simply wasn't going to happen, there wasn't enough compression. As soon as I made a new piston and put a Viton o-ring on it, I had lots of compression and the engine would fire quite regularly when driven by the electric drill----it just wouldn't stay running on its own. Then with the new Chrysler points it blasted off and ran as you seen it in the video. I've had that piston in and out enough times. I truly believe that with another couple of hours of running in, the cast iron rings would have sealed properly, based on visual inspection of the rings and piston. The wear pattern on the rings is about 90% uniform, with two areas that had started to wear but still hadn't reached the same finish as the rest of the ring. I paid $20 for the rings including shipping, and made a cast iron piston. I'm not going to use it.--If anybody wants the 1" dia. c.i. piston and rings, they can have it for $20 plus shipping.