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View Full Version : Value of a burke no.4 horizontal mill



FLarche
02-21-2013, 11:19 AM
There is a burke milling for sell near(300km) my home. It's a Burke no.4 made in 1943 and in good working condition. It comes with one arbor and with few cutters and end mills. There is no vise on the table(the table measure about 4'' by 16'') and it seems that a pulley needs to be changed for the auto feed: one pulley seems to be the original step pulley and the other is a straight(every step have the same diameter) pulley.

The seller ask 750$ for it and my impression is the price is very high for this type of machine. On the other hand, i never see those machines for sell in my area(Quebec, Canada). Sometimes i see an Atlas horizontal mill for around 800$ and that's it. The other machines for sell in my area are always too big for my small shop.

How much do you pay for this in your area? I begin to think i could probably buy one in the north east part of the U.S. and the final price would not be higher even with the freight and custom fees.

jungle_geo
02-21-2013, 12:12 PM
Its all about location. Out here on the west coast a Burke mill for sale is a fairly rare event so I have seen them up into the 800$ (USD) range for ones in good shape. Shipping for something that size can add up not to mention the value of your time looking for a better deal further away and all the logistics it brings about. If you really are looking for a Burke, I'd say go for it; there is always time to make more $.

I primarily responded to this thread to compliment you on the beautiful craftsmanship you have demonstrated on your website. Would really like to know more about how you go about making such things, but that I am sure is a whole field of study.

RussZHC
02-21-2013, 02:21 PM
High but I don't know if extremely so...there was one here (Wpg) about 2 years ago and I should have bought it, the price was around $600 IIRC with a single cutter and a spare arbour or two BUT it also had the vertical head...don't know driving distances local to you but guessing the drive to the NE states is about the same or less than to southwestern Ontario [if you are thinking of driving down as opposed to buying and having shipped...] as stated, location and hassle factor carries a lot of weight.

Mcgyver
02-21-2013, 02:34 PM
imo it all depends on condition and tooling. worn and no tooling, pass. Worn and lots of tooling, cheap enough I can really make something out it. Pristine and no tooling; that's a tough negotiation because fully outfitting will cost more than the machine (even used)....pristine and tons of tooling - yippy, who cares! Seriously, on something you'll use hopefully for decades and will retain its value and is perfect ....who cares what you pay (within reason).

but with limited tooling and likely worn (being that old, but otoh thats not conclusive) I'd be thinking a fraction of that

uncle pete
02-21-2013, 06:00 PM
Think about it. My useable yet not quite complete Atlas cost me around that much. If my shop would or could fit and fully support a Burke no. 4, I sure wouldn't be spending time asking questions about it's real value here. It's also a 70 year old machine. Unless your very, very lucky, it's going to need repairs of some kind with either missing or damaged parts, or up to regrinding and rescrapeing to get it back to at least close to it's original factory accuracy levels. I bought my Atlas while considering it as worst case that it was going to be a basic kit of castings. Not the dirt cheap poor quality Chinese quality kit of castings a bunch of their lathes and mills are considered as today, but something that is worthwhile after it's been surveyed and reworked where needed. And if you think about it, it would be totally impossible today to get a unmachined set of castings for a replica of a Burke or Atlas for $800 even from China if they offered them. And you get very high quality castings and all the extra parts included. The future HSM types are going to end up sooner or later casting and replicating parts exactly the same as some of the early classic car hobbiest's do today. Or they will if they want the smaller old school type and operational manual equipment. Exactly what it cost's me today to get what I want isn't of much real concern once I'm finally worm food.

But it's worth exactly what it's worth to you. Where you live, equipment availability, or even what we think has no logical bearing on what you should or shouldn't pay for it. Personally I really could care less what anyone here thinks about value since where I live has no real bearing on what's for sale or even available anywhere else. They don't build this equipment anymore. You really can't fix prices as to what it's really worth since every area is different. I bought my SB shaper from Tacoma Washington, and my Atlas horizontal from San Francisco. Both cost me over and above there actual selling price for shipping. Time and shipping for the shaper. I have to pay what I'm willing to pay. If I'm not willing to do that? Then I'm obviously not going to be buying or I don't want it bad enough. I can say I've noticed a very strong upward trend in prices over the last couple of years for the smaller hobbiest type type machine tools like the SB 7" shaper's and those Atlas horizontal mills. So if you think prices are high right now? I really do think we have seen the bottom of the cheap and easy to get SB's and Atlas equipment. Your going to start needing to pry your wallet open a lot further in the very near future IMO.

For where you live, the desirabilty of that No. 4, no shipping, Yada, yada, yada. Then $800 is a damn good price if it's even good enough to be rebuilt. Your thoughts may vary.

Pete

FLarche
02-23-2013, 11:45 AM
Thanks for your help. You guys bring really good points. I will make an offer to the seller. I do not have a car right now because i live in the city, so i take the bus. I already found a freight company that can bring back the milling to my shop. I will keep you informed if i buy it. And of course, i would few pictures of the milling.

Rex
02-24-2013, 06:17 PM
Before I would pay that much, I'd want to know:

Does it come with the original cast iron base?
Does it have handwheel for crossfeed (good) or lever feeds (not as good)
Since it's power feed it probably got handwheels.
Original motor?
Power - single phase or 3-phase?

challenger
02-24-2013, 07:36 PM
I have a #4 that I made from a #3 and restored very recently. In my area machine tools are unobtainable. I bought mine as a #3 from a private individual for $350.00 with a lot of B&S #9 tooling. The tooling is the reason I bought the machine because I have am old Wells-Index model 40 with the same taper. That mill is waiting for restoration and the Burke is done and is awesome. Mine has a Lima gear box motor so I have a lot of spindle speeds. There is a Yahoo group with great information. These are great machines. Oh-I have the original base.

I would make a good offer for it if things check out & it is what they say it is.
Regards
Howard


There is a burke milling for sell near(300km) my home. It's a Burke no.4 made in 1943 and in good working condition. It comes with one arbor and with few cutters and end mills. There is no vise on the table(the table measure about 4'' by 16'') and it seems that a pulley needs to be changed for the auto feed: one pulley seems to be the original step pulley and the other is a straight(every step have the same diameter) pulley.

The seller ask 750$ for it and my impression is the price is very high for this type of machine. On the other hand, i never see those machines for sell in my area(Quebec, Canada). Sometimes i see an Atlas horizontal mill for around 800$ and that's it. The other machines for sell in my area are always too big for my small shop.

How much do you pay for this in your area? I begin to think i could probably buy one in the north east part of the U.S. and the final price would not be higher even with the freight and custom fees.

JohnAlex141r
02-24-2013, 09:02 PM
A good question is "what is your hobby?" Is it fixing up old machinery, making hit-n-miss engines, or fly-fishing spools, or...?

I once picked up an old pre-1897 lathe (company was sold in 1897) that needed "a bit" of work. Best thing I did was to replace it with a used Emco Compact-8 lathe. Mind you, lots of years went by with nothing much produced. (young kids were also part of life then, so not much workshop time)

The choice is yours of course; for me, I've been bitten by some "bargains", and now I understand what my limited time is worth.

This mill may be in incredible shape, or it may be a specimen for Mcgyver here for a future article!

One of our club members purchased a RF-45 (??) vertical mill from King, and thinks it's incredible, compared to the smaller round-column mill it replaced. His hobby is making model steam locomotives, so I think he chose well.

Keep us informed as to what you end up doing.

Another JohnS
Ottawa, Canada.

FLarche
03-08-2013, 06:30 PM
Finally i didn't buy the Burke no4. It came with the original base and handwheel for the manual feed. I was planing to buy it but the seller found another buyer two days before i can do the 300 km trip to buy it. I found another(same model) in the Toronto area but the seller took one week to answer to my first email, he only said that the milling is still for sale. I am still waiting since few days the answer of my second email to know if he accept my buying conditions( i need to send a freight company to pick up the milling and i would send him a money order for the payment). Another guy offered me an Atlas MFG. Those machines seems smaller than what i wish to have, not sure if i am interested. Anyway, he never answered to my email when i asked for pictures and more details. Another guy offered me by email an Adcock and Shipley 1es. I asked to him few pictures of the milling and i gave to him my phone number as he asked, but no news from him since one week. He lives in my area and he could probably deliver the milling to my shop. The adcock and shipley is bigger than what i want and i would need to change the 550 volts motor for a 220 volts. But if the price is good, i think i will take it, and i will not regret it the day i will have a bigger shop:rolleyes:. I will probably have a new shop as soon as this summer.

So, right now my biggest concern is not the money but the fact that nobody answer to my messages. Anybody in the Quebec or Ontario area have a small horizontal milling to sell :confused:

FLarche
03-09-2013, 10:57 AM
Finally, i found an Adcock and Shipley. This milling was first bought by the Canadian army in the 60's and finally sold on the civilian market about two years ago. The milling is in good condition, but i must buy a 2hp 220 volts motor before i can use it. Here is a picture of my new toy :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8536/8605415778_9d49fe930c_c.jpg

FLarche
03-31-2013, 09:21 AM
I found these archived informations about the selling of this machine two years ago:

http://crownassets.pwgsc.gc.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=ach-shop&vndsld=1&so=DESC&sf=ferm-clos&lci=&str=1&sr=1&ltnf=1&lcn=214891&lct=L

I wonder why the vertical attachment is not with this machine anymore. For my part i only received the overarm support and one arbor.

Abaker
03-31-2013, 10:09 AM
I wonder why the vertical attachment is not with this machine anymore.

Unfortunately old machines are worth more when all the accessories are sold separately. For example, just try to buy a vertical head attachment complete with drive gear for a Kearney and Trecker horizontal. You will pay 2-3 times what you did for the whole mill.

That looks like a really nice mill. What is the spindle taper? Looks like a NMTB #30 or #40.

You can still use the mill without the vertical head, you just have to get used to turning the work sideways.

FLarche
03-31-2013, 10:25 AM
The spindle taper is a NMTB 40. I was planning to use this milling with a er32 collet holder but the table cannot rise high enough for sideway working. I will have to use some kind of block below the vise or perhaps i could simply change the acme threaded bar of the z axis for a longer one. I must do a closer examination for the second option.

FLarche
08-18-2013, 12:45 PM
In the last months i was very busy. My girlfriend and I bought a house so i moved my shop in the backyard in a more than 100 years old building farm. I past all my time and money of the last months for the setting of my new shop. I also worked on my milling machine. I stripped off the several layers of old paint, machined few parts, changed the threaded bar of the z axis, etc... I still need to buy a motor and some accessories for it but it begins to look good. Here are few pictures:

http://flarcheveque.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/adcock-and-shipley-comparaison-1.jpg?w=1000&h=

http://flarcheveque.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/adcock-and-shipley-comparaison-2.jpg?w=700&h=

http://flarcheveque.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/milling-adcock-and-shipley-1eg-restoration.jpg?w=1000&h=

Doozer
08-18-2013, 01:32 PM
Is this the same mill that Adcock n Shipley put the Bridgeport sticker on?

Nice mill ya got there!

--Doozer

FLarche
08-18-2013, 02:05 PM
Thanks!

I think i have the previous model, the one introduced in 1964. But the one with the Bridgeport sticker seems extremely similar. The handwheels are differents and mine is supposed to have less table area and travel than the one sometimes badged as Bridgeport: http://www.lathes.co.uk/adcock&shipleyhorizontal/page6.html