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taydin
02-22-2013, 07:46 AM
When looking at a mars rover picture, noticed that it uses a special philips type screw. Is there a particular reason for not using standard screws? I know that my toaster has funky screws that are designed to prevent me from repairing it. It looks like this screw can only be tightened, so there seems to be a similar motive (prevent the martians from tampering with it?)

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/727177main_pia16688-43_946-710.jpg

Doozer
02-22-2013, 08:11 AM
Mortorq http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/81/Screw_Head_-_Mortorq.svg/40px-Screw_Head_-_Mortorq.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Screw_Head_-_Mortorq.svg)

The Mortorq drive, developed by the Phillips Screw Company, is a format used in automotive and aerospace applications. It is designed to be a lightweight, low-profile and high-strength drive, with full contact over the entire recess wing reducing risk of stripping.

--Doozer

Euph0ny
02-22-2013, 09:18 AM
Two things come to mind:

- the funny screws will deter casual vandalism by Martians, and
- using them is a way for NASA to spend as much money as possible with some preferred supplier, even (especially) when the hardware-store variety of screw would do fine.

KiddZimaHater
02-22-2013, 09:50 AM
In order to keep their Gazillion Dollar budget in future years, they had to buy the most expensive screws available. :)

GNM109
02-22-2013, 09:56 AM
Two things come to mind:

- the funny screws will deter casual vandalism by Martians, and
- using them is a way for NASA to spend as much money as possible with some preferred supplier, even (especially) when the hardware-store variety of screw would do fine.

Absolutely. They should have used zinc plated stove bolts and screws sourced from a Chinese company on eBay. This is an obvious waste of money. After all, they were only sending it to Mars and it doesn't really matter if it falls apart.

IanPendle
02-22-2013, 10:33 AM
Never mind the screws, the wiring harness at bottom right, looks as though it is tied up with baling twine! Maybe they used up all their budget on the high tech screws?

Ian.

daryl bane
02-22-2013, 10:33 AM
I'm sorta surprised at the exposed...uh not exactly tidy wiring, but what do I know. Ian, you're a faster typer. :)

Jaakko Fagerlund
02-22-2013, 10:33 AM
-- it doesn't really matter if it falls apart.
Yup, they just use those rovers for high speed impact testing, just without the dummies :)

taydin
02-22-2013, 10:51 AM
Never mind the screws, the wiring harness at bottom right, looks as though it is tied up with baling twine! Maybe they used up all their budget on the high tech screws?

Ian.

Oh yes, I just noticed those, too. Actually, in this picture, they can be seen much clearer ... So you just take a tie, wrap it around and then turn the ends a few times, cut the excess off using your pliers, done!

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/728855main_McCloskey-1pia16729-946.jpg

taydin
02-22-2013, 11:01 AM
Most of the components on the rover probably employ triple, quadruple or more levels of redundancy. I guess the ties are there for the case where all existing provisions for holding those wires fail and will hold them as a last resort.

A.K. Boomer
02-22-2013, 11:17 AM
The screws have obvious one way attributes for tightening - That really does seem kinda strange to me seeing as to where it's going,
a common hammer strike impact tool would most likely be the ticket for un-doing but I can hardly imagine that someone's going to be wacking away at that thing if it's needed to come back down in the building process like it's some kind of cheap chinese motorcycle engine case...

To me it's typical Nasa and more of what you get when you have 5,000 different people trying to build one thing...
I think it's also what you get when there are so many different systems that are by far not standard issue stuff melded together into one unit, that I can understand - but why not have all those engineers have to consult with a fastener guy who standardizes everything?

then again - what does it matter as it's hardly a production type unit right...
Still, take a look at some of the other fasteners - can you imagine the tool-box you would need to work on that thing?
Last but not least - could it be that it's a predetermined fail safe built into the unit with all the assembling and disassembling that takes place as it's being fitted and final built - How many components of someone else's design have to be disassembled to get to your design underneath - so every systems expert has to remove his own work and sign off on it for the next guy to continue...

Just speculation on my part,,, All's I really know is when it comes to this unit - don't mess with success - the damn thing landed and it's working, that really is amazing for sure...

Does anyone know what that symbol stands for? it's not a triple propeller thing like in radiation warnings - is it the Nasa "hood emblem? :p wonder how BMW feels about them taking their centerpiece?

taydin
02-22-2013, 11:29 AM
The screw's one way tightening indeed makes sense for security and accountability/traceability purposes. You wouldn't want an engineer to casually disassemble it to show his colleauge in the neighboring division how cool this device is.

The symbol is most likely there as a reference point, just like those on crash dummies. You can calculate distances, relative coordinates by using those references.

A.K. Boomer
02-22-2013, 11:42 AM
Hmmm, good point. it's just that the symbol looks more than that to me.

if it was just an overall reference point of the entire unit then a sticker on any flat surface would do - Im going out on a limb here and would agree it's a reference point but it has to do with the position of the armature of the electric motor that it's mounted to underneath,
It's crazy but certain year Honda accords look almost identical to that entire setup for their automatic headlight raising and lowering mechanisms - except they use just one white line from center of radius to outside - the Nasa symbol has two positions that are identical per one revolution - that is the part I don't understand for referencing unless it's a low travel apparatus???

JCHannum
02-22-2013, 11:44 AM
Does that gizmo at the left look like a recoil starter in a Briggs & Stratton to anybody else? Just asking.

topct
02-22-2013, 11:56 AM
If those screws are meant to be one way I am thinking that once that section of the assembly is put together it does not need to come back apart to either inspect or repair. As far as the wiring? It obviously works. And if you needed to get into any section of harness all you would need to do is clip the ties and you could open the bundle very easily. If it were run in conduit or had a sheath it could get real messy for tracing. It is a well proven method of securing wiring and if you have ever seen the inside of a quality piece of electronic gear you will find the wiring tied in a similar fashion, for the same reason.

garagemark
02-22-2013, 12:08 PM
Those screws are used by the tens of thousands on almost every access panel on the C-5 Galaxy, and as such I assume they are also used on many military aircraft. There were very few tasks that we performed during isochronal inspections that were any harder than taking out at least 150 of these screws (PER PANEL x maybe twenty or thirty panels on the wing leading edges alone), a third of which didn't want to come for obvious reasons. We used impact hammers to loosen them, which many times ruined the nutplate underneath. I still have a scar or two from whacking my hand to prove that those fasteners were (are) a PIA!

I still have a bunch of them in 8-32 and 10-32 (from bringing them home in a pocket after work) and a few driver bits, but I do not use them. If anyone needs a few, call me.

lazlo
02-22-2013, 12:24 PM
Did you notice that there are also a lot of star torx (don't know the proper name) bolt heads as well. Look at the top left cap screw in Taydin's picture.

http://www.spaceflight101.com/uploads/6/4/0/6/6406961/697282_orig.jpg
http://www.spaceflight101.com/uploads/6/4/0/6/6406961/2663515_orig.jpg
http://www.spaceflight101.com/uploads/6/4/0/6/6406961/8999291_orig.jpg

NASA Gallery with high resolution versions of all those pictures:

http://www.spaceflight101.com/msl-sol-64-65-photo-gallery.html

A.K. Boomer
02-22-2013, 12:44 PM
yes there's a plethora of different kinds of fasteners - im counting two more places in the original pic that's using the "mortorqs", Garagemarks post is exactly how i imagined you having to disassemble those screws, sounds very crude and unneeded risk. So what did you have to do when the hammering ruined the nutplate underneath? crazy amount of lack of foresight on their part...

After seeing the rest of those pics id have to agree with Taydin as those stickers are for reference for anything that rotates or moves in relationship to the main structure as there are some stickers just on plain looking flat surfaces, but most likely surfaces that either rotate or move independently...

the one on the external motor casing is obviously keeping track of rotation within like I stated earlier...

philbur
02-22-2013, 12:51 PM
Clearly the machinists on this job were in a different class to the electricians.:eek:

Phil:)


Did you notice that there are also a lot of star torx (don't know the proper name) bolt heads as well. Look at the top left cap screw in Taydin's picture.

http://www.spaceflight101.com/uploads/6/4/0/6/6406961/697282_orig.jpg
http://www.spaceflight101.com/uploads/6/4/0/6/6406961/2663515_orig.jpg
http://www.spaceflight101.com/uploads/6/4/0/6/6406961/8999291_orig.jpg

NASA Gallery with high resolution versions of all those pictures:

http://www.spaceflight101.com/msl-sol-64-65-photo-gallery.html

A.K. Boomer
02-22-2013, 12:59 PM
I wasn't going to say anything but pic #2 in Lazlos post looks like their using glad garbage bag ties for the wiring --- :eek: years from now we'll send another rover out to take pictures of the ties and wires wedged into rocks that the indigenous birds used for nesting material... :p

lazlo
02-22-2013, 01:26 PM
I'm reading the marketing literature for Motorq, and I'm having a hard time believing some of this:

http://www.lichthart.de/fileadmin/pdf/PSC_MortorqSuper_Auto-GB.pdf
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/motorq_zps931e7cd0.jpg

"Motorq Spiral Drive" -- cool name though! :)

martik
02-22-2013, 01:38 PM
A little trivia about Phillips vs Robertson fasteners. Recognizing their superiority, Henry Ford unsuccessfully attempted to buy out the Canadian Robertson patent in the early 1900's, but since Mr Robertson would not agree, the Americans have had go endure those awful Phillips heads ever since. In Canada Robertson heads are the norm.

Jon Heron
02-22-2013, 02:31 PM
Why anyone would use those POS philips head screws for anything other then ballast or scrap metal is beyond me! :confused:
I hope the Canadian parts of that sweet golf cart are joined with quality robertsons! :cool:
Cheers,
Jon

bhowden
02-22-2013, 02:49 PM
I hope the Canadian parts of that sweet golf cart are joined with quality robertsons! :cool:
Cheers,
Jon

My wife was a docent with the local museum when the Leonardo exhibit was here. The local fabrication team built some additional models and used Robertson screws. When the exhibit was packed up and sent on to the next stop (Boston I think) they threw in a few boxes of screws and some bits. Legend has it that they got a call back wondering what on earth the screws were and where they could get some more. FWIW, my life improved significantly when I started tossing all philips screws that come into the shop. I will only stock Robertson and now Torx screws.

Brian

hitnmiss
02-22-2013, 03:04 PM
We design computer servers where I work. The factory loves phillips head screws. We tried to switch to torx heads but every different screw size requires a different driver. Also a problem is a T5 will almost fit a T6 and will for a while till it strips the screw drive.

J. Randall
02-22-2013, 03:42 PM
My wife was a docent with the local museum when the Leonardo exhibit was here. The local fabrication team built some additional models and used Robertson screws. When the exhibit was packed up and sent on to the next stop (Boston I think) they threw in a few boxes of screws and some bits. Legend has it that they got a call back wondering what on earth the screws were and where they could get some more. FWIW, my life improved significantly when I started tossing all philips screws that come into the shop. I will only stock Robertson and now Torx screws.

Brian

I can believe the part about calling back to find out where to source some more, but they must have been a pretty dull bunch if no one knew what they were. They have been showing up here in the States ever since their inception, and most mechanics know what they are.
James

winchman
02-22-2013, 03:43 PM
I believe the fastener shown in the OP's picture is made by HiShear.

http://www.hi-shear.com/images_f/recessgroup.jpg

It's the one on the left. They were used in some of the field joints on Poseidon missiles in the from the '70s through the early '90s. They were removable, but most were discarded after one use.

A MorTorq is somewhat different. Middle of second row.

http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F3Z/ARLQ/FOWZORNM/F3ZARLQFOWZORNM.LARGE.jpg

bob_s
02-22-2013, 04:26 PM
I've been following the Mars Rovers from before day 0.

The explanation that NASA gave for the wiring harness ties was that, given the very large temperature change the rovers experience daily, old fashioned knots in new-fangled string (for lack of a better description) was the best way to bind the wiring harnesses to keep them from sproinging apart.

Seems to have worked just fine on the Opportunity rover, because like a Tim*x it just keeps on ticking along.

Guido
02-22-2013, 04:37 PM
Looks to me like the scooper dealy in taydin's pic is missing a screw? Vacant mounting ear is visible for a third screw. Possible the holding ability of two Phillips equals ability of three Robertsons.

--G

taydin
02-22-2013, 04:45 PM
The explanation that NASA gave for the wiring harness ties was that, given the very large temperature change the rovers experience daily

We test our electronic circuits within -5 to +60 degrees celsius and we are seeing and correcting problems that occur at the upper and lower bounds. But designing for the temperature range on mars is a huge science in itself. Even more so with the probe that landed on one of Jupiter's moons, where normal temperature is 170 degrees celsuis below zero.

A.K. Boomer
02-22-2013, 04:48 PM
Guido, i don't think it's missing a screw - i believe it has two screws and two dowels holding the scooper,

Iv only encountered one robinson screw so far and it was from a mobile home - right or wrong ever since then iv associated them with "cheapness", I also truly hate the way they look...

really any "wingnut" can design a fastener and tool that holds till it snaps off, some of the inherent design within the philips is that it "cams out" so to speak before the tool or fastener head breaks - maybe not as important now with all the clutch drills and such but when first introduced they were the ticket for high speed production - self centering - self regulating (to a degree)...

I can personally tell you after installing thousands on my cedar privacy fence they do what they are supposed to do - and when I got a little trigger happy also do what their supposed to do...

Willy
02-22-2013, 05:29 PM
I can personally tell you after installing thousands on my cedar privacy fence they do what they are supposed to do - and when I got a little trigger happy also do what their supposed to do...

A.K., now try that same scenario but instead of cedar, try using some old dry fir. Also try keeping a Phillips screw on the drive bit while holding something else with your other hand.

The best thing that happened to Phillips screws is the impact driver for removing the darned things.


right or wrong ever since then iv associated them with "cheapness", I also truly hate the way they look...


When I first moved up here from the US I thought the same thing. Now I cringe whenever I see a Phillips screw.

PM me you address and I'll send you a Robertson starter, "care" package...early birthday/Christmas present. Give them a proper evaluation, then let us know how you feel. I can almost guarantee their performance will win you over, if not their looks.
My brother in New Mexico does an awful lot of woodwork and although apprehensive at my first offer is now a convert.

CCWKen
02-22-2013, 06:29 PM
A little trivia about Phillips vs Robertson fasteners. Recognizing their superiority, Henry Ford unsuccessfully attempted to buy out the Canadian Robertson patent in the early 1900's, but since Mr Robertson would not agree, the Americans have had go endure those awful Phillips heads ever since. In Canada Robertson heads are the norm.

Ford never used a single Phillips head screw in the Model T or Model A. All screws were slotted head. Ford Canada did use Robertson head screws on Model Ts though.

darryl
02-22-2013, 06:46 PM
I noticed something in Winchmans image of all those fastener types- second last row, first on left- that looks like a good 'un :)

A.K. Boomer
02-22-2013, 07:59 PM
A.K., now try that same scenario but instead of cedar, try using some old dry fir.

I have and they work great - they are the Pozi drive phillips and are widely used on deck type screws and like the robertsons you have to be careful with them due to them not camming out - they will literally snap the bit or the screw itself before yielding the drive material...

however, the similarities between the robertson and the pozi drive stops there as both maybe capable of tool failure before fastener yield, the posi drive is capable of putting far more toque on any typical deck type screw head of the same size due to the phillips blade following the countersink angle of the screw itself so that the blade can be far closer to the outer parameters of the fastener - (look at the illustrations and how tight the robertson has to keep it's maximum radius as compared to the drive radius of the pozi drive for the same size fastener head, this is a direct loss of torque strength, any good fastener engineer knows that its the outer parameters that are your work horse for torque transfer )

another bonus of the posi-drive or conventional phillips head is the ability to use the next size larger or smaller drive tool in a pinch,,, this is damn handy when caught out in the field with limited tools - While not quite as handy using a dime sandwiched by two quarters to remove a flat-head screw - it's way better than the "oh fuque" I brought the wrong size robertson with me --- again :p







Also try keeping a Phillips screw on the drive bit while holding something else with your other hand.



Willy - it's not a flat head regular - just push down in the general direction and turn...:)





PM me you address and I'll send you a Robertson starter, "care" package...early birthday/Christmas present. Give them a proper evaluation, then let us know how you feel. I can almost guarantee their performance will win you over, if not their looks.
Your cool - (or own stock in the company lol) I know I could never like the looks of something that looks like it's designed to hold a childs toy together, and i already know how they would perform performance wise just by looking at them. I think in many cases they would indeed outdo conventional phillips - but who needs to outdo something that's superior for holding cedar fence up or car or home stereo's together...

Jon Heron
02-22-2013, 08:47 PM
Rant on
A.K. Boomer: What a load of BS, all of it, lmao!
The fact that you think that philips strip so easily is a good thing, is a testament to how much screwing you have done or not done for that matter ;)
A robertson cant be beat, period, torx aren't even close and your "new and improved" pozi drive are just more of the same scrap. A flat head is even better then a philips, at least with them you can use a screw starter and they are less likely to strip if your using the right tool for the job.
As an electrician, old engine tinkerer/re-builder, etc, whom has installed and removed literally millions of screws by hand (before the advent of a cordless drill with enough power to drive a screw into wood) and with a drill, there is no question as to why the philips head screw should have been outlawed years ago... Anyone with the same experience would agree. :p
You enjoy them though lol, they will continue to be binned in all quality shops up here as they suck in more ways then one. :cool:
Cheers,
Jon

Tony Ennis
02-22-2013, 08:51 PM
My workbenches are made with Robertson's and some torx, or torx-like deck screws.

I see no reason to use Phillips again.

aboard_epsilon
02-22-2013, 08:52 PM
The tie raps look very similar to the translucent ones ive used outside here on earth ..to hold cable to a catenary wire ..that supplies my workshop.

They have a lifespan of about 2 years in our thick atmosphere before they degrade with the UV light and snap.

as i understand it, Mars has little atmosphere or ozone layer ..#

so ..what's going to happen ?

all the best.markj

H8Allegheny
02-22-2013, 09:06 PM
Somewhere I read a history of the phillips head screw. Used almost exclusively in the auto industry when first developed, they were designed both to self center the driving bit and to strip out when using powered screw drivers so as not to be over torqued and snap off. There was apparently an entire department at GM to design the right depth and shape of the "slots" for the bit to cam out at just the right torque.

topct
02-22-2013, 09:22 PM
I Googled "Robertson head machine screws" and did not get any results. Why is that?

Jon Heron
02-22-2013, 09:46 PM
The tie raps look very similar to the translucent ones ive used outside here on earth ..to hold cable to a catenary wire ..that supplies my workshop.
Use the black ones outside, the white ones are for indoor use only.

I Googled "Robertson head machine screws" and did not get any results. Why is that?
Not sure, I just googled "robertson machine screws" and there are millions of pages of them.
Cheers,
Jon

A.K. Boomer
02-22-2013, 09:57 PM
Somewhere I read a history of the phillips head screw. Used almost exclusively in the auto industry when first developed, they were designed both to self center the driving bit and to strip out when using powered screw drivers so as not to be over torqued and snap off. There was apparently an entire department at GM to design the right depth and shape of the "slots" for the bit to cam out at just the right torque.

Exactly - as I stated earlier.
Also - once overtightened and camed out it does not effect their loosening capabilities so they can be immediately replaced - it's basic physics - it's harder to tighten things than to loosen due to the whole inclined plane thing working for you rather than against...

Now - don't you think for a second that I was not tickled $hitless when motorcycle manufacturers went to allen head instead of phillips - bravo - someone recognized the effects of time and corrosion -
the fact remains that they generally work great for what they were designed for - and if people are using them on something that they weren't designed for then it's really not the fasteners fault anymore than it would be if you used a nylon fastener...
I can think of no better fastener to use in and on things like stereo's or light duty underdash than the phillips head - grab a medium driver and go to town, if off angle a little and they will still bite, for speed they are second to none.
The biggest thing against the phillips drive is its directly related to the amount of pressure you put in direct relationship to the fastener, they are by no means a lazy mans fastener - iv witnessed guys pissing and moaning while rounding off the inside of the drive, and then even with a butchered up screw head said to them "here - let me try" sink my body weight into it and jog it back and forth till I re-establish a small purchase - then start to pour the coals to it and pop, it's off - and then i get a "how did you do that"

one thing for sure - the standard phillips is not for the limp wrist-ed - which is maybe why jon herons having so much trouble --- LMAO :p
for guys like that I just recommend what I do to gurls who try and do their own handy work - if your grip is weak then try some valve grinding compound on the tip of your driver so you don't have to work so hard, if that don't work then get an impact driver... and as always, have a nice day:)

Willy
02-22-2013, 11:51 PM
A.K., my like of the Robertson screws vs. the Phillips screws is mainly aimed at the screw's ability to transfer the drive bit's torque without resorting to impact tools or having to lean on it like a bull, only to wreck the screw and or bit.
And yes just like Phillips, there are Robertson drivers that will fit a several screw sizes.

As far as what you may consider a cheesy appearance, well look no further than the motorcycles you mentioned. Buggered up screw heads are common place on machines that haven't had them replaced with SHC replacements. I'm sure most of the GM screws that were torqued to cam-out will suffer the same fate after 5-10 years of corrosion. But I'm in agreement with you in the aesthetics department. I sure wouldn't use Robertsons for installing a cam housing on my bike. :)

But my main reason for liking the Robertson system is around the house and in the construction sector, as I believe there are more viable options for fasteners better suited to the machinery related fields.

Hey if all your construction activities start and stop at driving some screws into butter-soft cedar fencing or maybe driving a handful of screws into a press-board stereo stand, well yeah I guess a Phillips screw will get the job done. But try using them in hi-torque jobs like screwing some serious construction projects together and then use the Robertson system for the same application and tell me you like the Phillips better. I'm not saying the Phillips can't do the job, it can and it has, but there are better ways. Just because it's been used as long as it has doesn't mean it's right. No different than the guy that swears by his old car...there are better means available.

In my reference to the Robertson's ability to hold onto a screw while holding something in the other hand, your reply leaves me somewhat baffled.


Willy - it's not a flat head regular - just push down in the general direction and turn



You're kidding right?
You haven't ever had to start a screw into a wall while holding a fixture, or starting a screw into a deep recess where you can't hold the screw against the bit without using a dab of grease to "glue" the Phillips screw to the driver while carefully starting it?
Well don't try this with a Phillips. I can even shake this sheet metal screw quite vigorously before the matching taper between the screw and bit let lose.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/250willy/P2220109_zps2e20a40e.jpg

My offer still stands buddy, an assortment of various screws and a matching driver you'll soon learn to love.:D

A.K. Boomer
02-23-2013, 12:36 AM
Misunderstood you about the "holding" thing - I do have a few magnetized phillips drivers for that purpose - I won't claim I can shake them all around but will claim as said before that they can be installed whilst not directly aligned by quite an angle - and by the looks of your wedge fitting robertson not so much.

another handy little thing about the phillips or pozi drives is if they have a little debris inside you can just wiggle the drive tool around whilst under pressure and it will seat further and further in and generally dislodge the material to the outside radius - the roberts is like an allen - it will compress the material and then you better have a little pick tool with you or compressed air...

no big whoop - their damn handy, fast, and good for most light duty things and for more serious jobs we have the pozi heads and torque heads - they will drive a hardened 4" deck screw through dry fir no prob... in fact the first thing that will usually give is the screw will snap...

I like the appearance and strength of the common allen. and also like its performance for most things, it will outperform the robertson as far as driver strength for the same size radius so to me there is no reason for the robertson - but external hexes still rule, (along with external 12 points for specific apps like connecting rod bolts and such) and will outperform anything were talking about...

and external squares belong on my granpa's wheel barrow...

Edit; I have a jumbo phillips in my tool box and it fits one thing very well - hint - you lean on them everyday whilst going around corners - they are the two massive door lock countersunk screws found in most cars or at least most all the ones I work on,
My driver also has a hex shank so that i can put a 6 point box end wrench on it and really torque out and sometimes have too just to bust them loose, you would not believe what a pillips drive is capable of,
The thing is - is this design takes a little focus using in this way with a wrench hanging off to one side and applying pressure this way, but if you pay attention and keep it true then it means all it's effort is going towards torque, If this system was a robertson you may very well be bending the tool sideways whilst trying to use it to loosen - and you may very well end up with a broken drive tool...

Willy
02-23-2013, 01:50 AM
Edit; I have a jumbo phillips in my tool box and it fits one thing very well - hint - you lean on them everyday whilst going around corners - they are the two massive door lock countersunk screws found in most cars or at least most all the ones I work on,
My driver also has a hex shank so that i can put a 6 point box end wrench on it and really torque out and sometimes have too just to bust them loose, you would not believe what a pillips drive is capable of,
The thing is - is this design takes a little focus using in this way with a wrench hanging off to one side and applying pressure this way, but if you pay attention and keep it true then it means all it's effort is going towards torque, If this system was a robertson you may very well be bending the tool sideways whilst trying to use it to loosen - and you may very well end up with a broken drive tool...


Yup, I've got several of those too, and yes you can put a lot of torque to the Phillips door hinge and striker plate screws with one if you lean into it, and you do have to lean hard.
I even have a few old large Snap-On Phillips drivers that you can really put the torque to, and guess what drives them? A 3/8" square drive, very similar to a Robertson drive.

mike4
02-23-2013, 05:02 AM
The biggest problem that I have found with any type of fastener is the person who did it up in the first place usually has overtightened them .
Where do people get the idea that a 6mm screw has to be tightened to almost breaking point?

Hand tightened is sufficient on 90% of smal screws and any who use air impact drivers to tighten any are just asking for trouble no matter whuch system is favoured.

I have spent quite a bit of time during dissassembly trying to remove fasteners which have been overtorqued by some dense Bubba.
Michal

Jon Heron
02-23-2013, 10:31 AM
one thing for sure - the standard phillips is not for the limp wrist-ed - which is maybe why jon herons having so much trouble --- LMAO
for guys like that I just recommend what I do to gurls who try and do their own handy work - if your grip is weak then try some valve grinding compound on the tip of your driver so you don't have to work so hard, if that don't work then get an impact driver... and as always, have a nice day
:D Perhaps we will meet one day and see how this limp wrist makes your eyes bulge when we shake hands... ;)
Your continued diatribe of BS on this matter just further shows your inexperience with screwing, there simply is no debate, none, not for angle of attack, not for torque, not for nothing... lol
Please continue to use your fastener of choice, but dont promote one of the worst screw heads ever made as anything more then it is, junk. :rolleyes:
Have a nice day!
Cheers,
Jon

alchymist
02-23-2013, 10:45 AM
Never mind the screws, the wiring harness at bottom right, looks as though it is tied up with baling twine! Maybe they used up all their budget on the high tech screws?

Ian.
Nope, standard lacing cord, Used in all types of military and aerospace equipment.

martik
02-23-2013, 10:55 AM
More info on Ford's relationship with robertson and phillips.......

http://www.dww.com/?p=3835

"Early success was demonstrated by the fact that the Fisher Body Company, which made chassis in Canada for Fordís Canadian subsidiary, used between 500 and 800 screws for each wooden body of a Model T and, later, Robertson supplied metal screws for the assembly of the metal-bodied Ford Model A. Apparently the use of these screws cut overall vehicle assembly time by nearly two hours!

Although over the next many decades the firm prospered, the history of its relationship with Ford is instructive. Fordís policy was to enter into a licensing agreement with a patent holder and not simply to buy the finished product from the patentee. When this was put forward by Ford, Robertson balked, believing that his long-term interests would be prejudiced, and later Ford would enter into a licensing agreement with a more compliant supplier by the name of Phillips. To this day, although the Robertson screw is dominant in Canada and in several other countries, the Phillips screw and driver has the bulk of the US market for a somewhat similar fastening device."

http://www.marfas.com/phillips.shtml

A.K. Boomer
02-23-2013, 11:37 AM
Yup, I've got several of those too, and yes you can put a lot of torque to the Phillips door hinge and striker plate screws with one if you lean into it, and you do have to lean hard.
I even have a few old large Snap-On Phillips drivers that you can really put the torque to, and guess what drives them? A 3/8" square drive, very similar to a Robertson drive.


Im not trying to compare a basic phillips to a robertson, there is stuff you can do with the self holding capabilities that I can't with a phillips - even with magnetic driving tools I still have to concentrate on keeping the driver true and you don't have to worry about the drive tool teetering off it's perch, That's critical esp. with self starters trying to plow through metal or something of that nature...

All's im really saying is there's enough variety out there already to have just about every situation covered with everything that I do - now I don't assemble trailers - and that's where the hoover vacuum cleaner I bought for a buck at a yard sale 25 years ago picked up one of them there robertsons cuz it was stuck in the fan, I can see certain production situations where the robertson would rule no contest, I also could see them eating their lunch with small electronics and such,
Iv been taking stuff apart and putting it back together for pert near 50 years, area's abound in assembly processes where there's not even enough room for the driver handle to fit in alignment with the fastener,

compromises are part of doing business in the fastener world,,, There is for sure a place for both types of drives to be a better choice depending on application, There is also the fact that if you have 98% of it covered with what you have been using then there's really no need for change as the other two percent can be dealt with and or replaced with some other fastener already in your arsenal...

Fastener engineering is not as simple as coming up with the most strip-proof fastener head, if that was the case then a simple triangular shape of the same outer radius would severely out-do your square drive, but your drive tool would be snapping left and right due to the reduced inner radius where the torsional load is transmitted through,,,

it's all a series of compromises --- and the hex retains even more of this inner torsional drive circle strength over the square,
but go more flats than 6 and you better start thinking of introducing splines instead of flats,,,

Square has it's place where a pre-determined amount of space is already dedicated to being used like at the head of an already bulky ratchet with plenty of room to allow for the extra wall thickness needed for the reinforcement of the female piece be it a socket or an extension...

but get down to the Fastener end and now you would run into problems with clunky socket tools that have to be built extra large to accommodate not only the extra diameter that it takes to harbor the square flanges but if the fastener is a nut then these same flanges drastically reduce the nuts wall thickness at the minimum radius point,,, this is why we have hex drive fasteners and not square on just about everything under the sun...

The point in all this is the problems with square drive don't just stop there, - many of these characteristics are in reverse when the tool is the internal drive mechanism and the fastener the receptor,
again - space is limited - and again the inner torque transfer radius is reduced as compared to a hex with equal outer radius - except this time the burden of reduced torsional strength is on the tool driver rather than the fastener,,, the results are that for any given same outer radius the square drive shanks will snap off due to them being far weaker than the hex,

the bottom line is the allen head is superior by design... reduced fastener head size and increased drive torque radius, more points to turn when using a wrench in tight spots, more uniform stress points on both tool and fastener, That's why we use them here in the USA... for both inner and outer applications...

To each their own :p

A.K. Boomer
02-23-2013, 11:48 AM
:D Perhaps we will meet one day and see how this limp wrist makes your eyes bulge when we shake hands... ;)
Your continued diatribe of BS on this matter just further shows your inexperience with screwing, there simply is no debate, none, not for angle of attack, not for torque, not for nothing... lol
Please continue to use your fastener of choice, but dont promote one of the worst screw heads ever made as anything more then it is, junk. :rolleyes:
Have a nice day!
Cheers,
Jon



Hey Bubbs - you want to start off being rude I'll finish it for you - It's apparent you have about zero argument in the engineering department as all you can do is rant and rave,,, come up with something besides proving that your ignorant on the matter.


and as always - have a nice day.:)

lazlo
02-23-2013, 12:09 PM
Am I the only one here who's amused that people can be nationalistic about a friggin' fastener?! :) I mean, we can't even standardize on Imperial versus Metric, we have to have a gazillion fastener types too :D

A.K. Boomer
02-23-2013, 12:31 PM
I can understand it - but I also think it's misguided - Iv pulled down lots of car stereo systems to do things like replace the outputs or re-solder their connections - depending on the unit sometimes you have to remove over 30 little phillips head screws of various sizes - to me there's nothing quicker - I would not like it if they were either allen or robertson - many don't have the depth to use ball head allen drive so it would be slow going lining them up because some are tiny, same goes if it was robertson - yet in the atmosphere of no corrosion and them all looking like new I can count on all 30+ coming out and going back in without incident and doing it extremely fast, so I guess what im saying is whats not to luv, they have their place just like anything else, so much so that with certain apps Id hate to be without them...

have to add; Just in radio talk, the phillips head is not nationalistic - iv worked on foreign cars for over a decade including their radio's - and it does not matter if the car and its radio manufacturer is - German - Japanese - Italian or French - there's one thing they all have in common inside the radio and that is that they are assembled with the phillips head screw,,, many hose clamps and other things like dash work also use them regardless of country of origin...

Jon Heron
02-23-2013, 01:59 PM
Hey Bubbs - you want to start off being rude I'll finish it for you - It's apparent you have about zero argument in the engineering department as all you can do is rant and rave,,, come up with something besides proving that your ignorant on the matter.
and as always - have a nice day.:)
Oh boy, I see where this is going and its a circle.
Rude? You degraded the discussion into a juvenile personal attack and called me a limp wristed girl, lol, and you you claim I am being rude? How so?
Who needs any kind of engineering theories (like you're spewing out of your hoop) to prove their superiority? There is no argument, its you alone claiming the philips is superior to a robertson, no one else and engineering has zero to do with it, its all about practical use. Hell they even proved it back in the early 1900's as pointed out in martic's post
"Early success was demonstrated by the fact that the Fisher Body Company, which made chassis in Canada for Fordís Canadian subsidiary, used between 500 and 800 screws for each wooden body of a Model T and, later, Robertson supplied metal screws for the assembly of the metal-bodied Ford Model A. Apparently the use of these screws cut overall vehicle assembly time by nearly two hours!
That two hours is probably on the light side too...
I see no point in continuing with this as, like I said, there is no debate and never has been. :cool:
Cheers,
Jon

Jon Heron
02-23-2013, 02:10 PM
Am I the only one here who's amused that people can be nationalistic about a friggin' fastener?! :) I mean, we can't even standardize on Imperial versus Metric, we have to have a gazillion fastener types too :D
Well we all love to be patriotic, but for the record, the entire world has standardized to the metric system, its only the USA that has refused to change...
Someone send a letter to Obama, request that the country change to the metric system, to be in line with the rest of the world and ban philips head screws for the good of mankind! :D ;D
Its his last term, he can do it!
:p
Cheers,
Jon

lazlo
02-23-2013, 02:12 PM
That two hours is probably on the light side too...
I see no point in continuing with this as, like I said, there is no debate and never has been. :cool:

That's very true, but because Robertson wouldn't license the square drive, he Betamax'ed it. Which is why, 100 years later, it's virtually unheard of outside of Canada.

lazlo
02-23-2013, 02:19 PM
Well we all love to be patriotic, but for the record, the entire world has standardized to the metric system

Canada hasn't standardized on the Metric system. Neither has the UK.
How many square feet is your house? How much do you pay per pound of sirloin? How many ounces in a bottle of Molson? :)

Jon Heron
02-23-2013, 02:33 PM
Very good points laslo.
I had to learn metric and imperial while in school up here in canuckland, I blame the USA's reluctance to upgrade to the metric system for that... :p
Seriously though, can you believe that he didn't licence the roberston!? A loss for the betterment of man kind... Say la vee eh... :rolleyes:
Cheers,
Jon

lazlo
02-23-2013, 02:45 PM
Seriously though, can you believe that he didn't licence the roberston!? A loss for the betterment of man kind...

I don't disagree Jon. I've never seen a Robertson, so I can't judge, but it does look pretty slick.

I also agree that it'd be nice if there was one world-wide standard for measurements, but that's life. Heck, we can't even agree on screwdrivers! :D
A mile was the distance a Roman Legion could travel in 1000 paces, a kilometer is a poorly measured fraction of the meridian through Paris, with the amusing assumption that the world is a sphere. Pick your poison...

Willy
02-23-2013, 02:49 PM
How does that old saying go?
Forgive me as I'm paraphrasing here...

To those that have never witnessed a truly black, star lit night, there are no words to describe....to those that have, no description is necessary.

lazlo
02-23-2013, 02:51 PM
To those that have never witnessed a truly black, star lit night, there are no words to describe....to those that have, no description is necessary.

Holy Cow! The Robertson Drive is that good?! :D

It actually fastens itself! :)

Willy
02-23-2013, 02:59 PM
Holy Cow! The Robertson Drive is that good?! :D

It actually fastens itself! :)

Better than that!
It slices, dices, and julliens...for over a year with only one recharge of it's lithium polymer battery.
Did I mention...most will also receive AM talk radio.

A.K. Boomer
02-23-2013, 04:29 PM
Rude? You degraded the discussion into a juvenile personal attack and called me a limp wristed girl, lol, and you you claim I am being rude? How so?

Jon

Maybe somebody needs to go back to post 36 - post 42 is when I stated you "might" have a limp wrist, never said you were a limp wristed gurl - that's your own fantasy...

Im only offering that to you as a diagnoses suggestion because I don't seem to be having any trouble with them, one thing for sure is their here to stay and are on just about everything so either learn how to deal with them or at the very least stop whining about it, they do what they are supposed to do when used in the proper application.

A.K. Boomer
02-23-2013, 06:17 PM
Better than that!
It slices, dices, and julliens...for over a year with only one recharge of it's lithium polymer battery.
Did I mention...most will also receive AM talk radio.

Something tells me talk of bowel movements is right around the corner,

hey Willy - what do you guys use for sheet rock screws in the north? I think the phillips would be tough to beat for that kind of self engaging/cam-out so if you go light with pressure you won't pump one through the paper/non-wedging easy release production no? just curious...

Iv seen the guys in action in my neck of the woods and cannot for the life of me imagine anything faster, the wide dished angle of the screw drive head also makes it allot easier on the mud guys too because it usually fills with just one quick swipe, Im thinking the robertsons would create a pneumatic dam and pop the mud back in your face... what say you?

Like I stated there is a place for lots of different fasteners and im not blind to that fact on the flip side,,, although iv never even used one I can tell just by looking at it's design that the robertson would be superior to just about anything I know of for doing a one handed self starting in thin sheet metal or hard wood --- but how often does a mechanic need that feature?, maybe once every year or two when working on my house?, I don't know if iv ever needed that when working on cars or motorcycles, so it's all what you do,

My two bro's are electricians and they only use phillips - that does not make it right - they seem to get by just fine but iv also seen when their "hangin it out there" with one hand trying to get one started and on a tall wobbly ladder and "plank" there goes a phillips off sideways and on to the ground...

iv also had this happen when helping them,

but in retrospect iv also had the drill in the max resistance mode and was glad to have the phillips cam out instead of twisting the drill out of my wrist at arms length and risking it falling and either hitting someone or pulling me off the ladder... but that's more of a reason to double check your drills resistance settings... which point being could be real critical with a robertson on a high ladder with your arm fully extended...

Forestgnome
02-23-2013, 06:28 PM
Oh yes, I just noticed those, too. Actually, in this picture, they can be seen much clearer ... So you just take a tie, wrap it around and then turn the ends a few times, cut the excess off using your pliers, done!

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/728855main_McCloskey-1pia16729-946.jpg

Actually that's wire harness lacing. Usually a wax impregnated flat braid. It's wrapped, pulled tight, then tied with a specific knot. Very durable, flexible, and won't compromise the insulation. It's also very low profile so the harness won't hang up when slid through troughs.

Jon Heron
02-23-2013, 07:17 PM
Boomer, how about a truce? This pissing match is hardly worth the effort?
It was not my intention to be rude, I cant help but call it how I see it....
No heart feelings.
Peace,
Jon

A.K. Boomer
02-23-2013, 07:53 PM
That's big of you and consider it done, I have a way of upping the ante when it comes to being rude so things can get out of control real quick --- :p

It's all good and for fun and a little of it gets the discussion going in depth for sure.

sooo - what do you guys use for sheetrock screws up there? you do have sheetrock don't you? (dang - sometimes feel like Canada's on the other side of some huge ocean lol)
As a mechanic I may not see the need for the robertson, but I can tell you after growing up just 30 miles from the border I miss some Canadian beers...
Cheers Jon...

bhowden
02-23-2013, 08:32 PM
sooo - what do you guys use for sheetrock screws up there? you do have sheetrock don't you? (dang - sometimes feel like Canada's on the other side of some huge ocean lol)
As a mechanic I may not see the need for the robertson, but I can tell you after growing up just 30 miles from the border I miss some Canadian beers...
Cheers Jon...

Drywall screws are Philips, usually used with the dimpler clutch that stops the driver from overdriving the screw. Deck screws are 99% Robertson, 1% torx. I probably hang 5 sheets of drywall a year now so I use deck screws (ie Robertsons) and go slow at the end to avoid overdriving. The ability to "stick" a screw on the driver is very handy and avoids having to wrap tape around the screw when down in the bottom of a long tube. It is useful enough for reaching out on a ladder hanging drywall that I find it compensates for the odd overdriven screw. Any real drywaller would stay with Philips for this though. All that said, cheap Chinese screws and screwdrivers are ruining some of the advantage as they often get the taper wrong and do not hold onto the screw as well. What do they use in electrical boxes in the States? I don't think I have ever seen anything other than Robertson here. The screwdrivers are color coded so any electrician will know that "a red one" means a #2 Robertson.

Brian

dfw5914
02-23-2013, 09:50 PM
One thing that strikes me when looking at photos of the rover is the missed opportunities for weight savings.
Seems like when it comes to lobbing something into space, there would be a lot more emphasis on weight reduction.

A.K. Boomer
02-23-2013, 10:14 PM
What do they use in electrical boxes in the States? I don't think I have ever seen anything other than Robertson here.

Brian


polar opposite here - never seen a robertson used and only phillips and on the old remodels regulars...

I can't say that we don't have robertsons in little packs or something but can say they are definitely not in any kind of bulk bins like we have for weighing out the sheet rock or deck screws by the pound and buying that way... not in my town anyways...

I know iv seen a few of them holding something together somewhere - and may have actually used a small regular screw driver to disassemble something electronic that used them,,, other than that the only other one I seen was the one stuck in my vacuum cleaner I bought...

darryl
02-23-2013, 10:29 PM
If I'm building something with mdf that needs fasteners, I use drywall screws. I made up a custom pilot hole/head recess cutter that matches the shape of the head. It's easy to see when the final indent happens to match the diameter of the head- take that down about 50 thou and that's it. The small shank diameter and the relatively thin threads are a good match for material that likes to split easily. Works quite well and looks good too.

Anything I do which involves screwing in 2x4s, I use a robertson head- usually deck screws. The driver bits with carbide tips last a long time- way better than the all-steel tips. I don't know of any other driver that is made with carbide tips- that alone clinches the superiority of the robertson head.

MrFluffy
02-24-2013, 04:09 AM
Pozi is king here, you can get the bits in all sorts of quality and material. From the 10 for $4 packs, to the individual bits costing $40 apiece which are some exotic Ti alloy. Even bits with cush drive with the two halves connected by a rubber insert to cut vibration down on the operator.
My experience with them (and I've drove plenty of screws building my selfbuild house) is that the pozi's either break the bit (cheap ones) or the screw shank snaps when the load gets too high. There are some old oak beams we reused that we had to pilot because driving good quality screws straight in was shearing the screws while driving.
Decking screws have moved onto splined torx fittings. I can't remember the time I actually saw phillips screws in use apart from on a bike or car.

For the rover, is that assembly likely to be bought in from a contractor? In which case the contract probably says "deliver X functionality in Y environment" and deliberately doesn't go into telling the contractor how to build it, what screws to use etc. Contractually they wont care, as long as it delivers what they ask for and it passes the tests everyones good. Maybe even nasa aren't required to inspect inside the module once its working in that case. Why wag your tail when youve paid a dog to do so?

I like the lacing wax string in place of the more usual ties. I've stripped out old computer gear done with that, and it was still as neat and functional as the day it went in, despite being years obsolete. Its a bit like waxed string you used to find round a beef joint from the butcher :)

Willy
02-24-2013, 09:08 AM
hey Willy - what do you guys use for sheet rock screws in the north?

Sheet rock, Sheet Rock!, don't you guys know it's called drywall!?http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/250willy/cee48e43.jpg

Seriously, that's another one one of those "cultural" differences that I've adopted after
my baptism to the land ice, whiskey, and bacon. Did I mention we make good whiskey up here too?
But yes the Phillips reins supreme in the world of sheet rock installation.


although iv never even used one I can tell just by looking at it's design that the robertson would be superior to just about anything I know of for doing a one handed self starting in thin sheet metal or hard wood --- but how often does a mechanic need that feature?

A lot if he's married!
Chances are he'll be doing lots of home renos and honeydew lists all by his lonesome if he wants peace in the family.
In retrospect, perhaps I should start using Robertsons for some more of those projects.
Once everything's all split and cracked from over driving screws into a bunch of that crap I'll be able to spend more time doing what I want.

But no I can appreciate the fact that Phillips screws do serve a valuable role in fastener applications, both here and around the world. I just feel that that they are over used in many situations better served by the Robertson. I can certainly appreciate standardization, just not at the expense of practicality.

Tony Ennis
02-24-2013, 09:19 AM
polar opposite here - never seen a robertson used and only phillips and on the old remodels regulars...


I've never seen a Robertson except for the ones I bought. I have removed a lot of Philips and slot screws when remodeling. The other day I disassembled some old shelves in the basement. The shelves were connected to the brackets from below with slotted screws. Them was some good times.

lazlo
02-24-2013, 12:21 PM
Pozi is king here, you can get the bits in all sorts of quality and material.

Decking screws have moved onto splined torx fittings. I can't remember the time I actually saw phillips screws in use apart from on a bike or car.

I'm guessing you're in the UK? I don't think I've ever seen PoziDrive's here in the US either.


For the rover, is that assembly likely to be bought in from a contractor? In which case the contract probably says "deliver X functionality in Y environment" and deliberately doesn't go into telling the contractor how to build it, what screws to use etc.

JPL built (builds) the Mars Rovers, and many of the other space probes going back before the Viking lander (1975). I gather there's a very good reason for their choice of fasteners.

ikdor
02-24-2013, 12:47 PM
Here's the nasa lacing guide on page 40:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/87394.htm
Igor

Georgineer
02-25-2013, 07:50 AM
Sheet rock, Sheet Rock!, don't you guys know it's called drywall!?http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/250willy/cee48e43.jpg



Is that the foreign name for plasterboard?

George

vpt
02-25-2013, 08:18 AM
Oh its not fireboard?

Forestgnome
02-25-2013, 09:28 AM
Here's the nasa lacing guide on page 40:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/87394.htm
Igor

Thanks for finding that! The document also shows flat lacing on pg 43. The first ribbon cables were done like that. When done right it's really something to see.

alchymist
02-25-2013, 09:51 AM
Must have laced miles and miles of various types of cable, starting in the mid sixties up through as late as '08. Never was NASA certified, although in the '70s was NASA solder certified. Some technicians never did acquire the knack to neatly lace a cable.

RancherBill
02-25-2013, 10:43 AM
Drywall screws are Philips, usually used with the dimpler clutch that stops the driver from overdriving the screw. Deck screws are 99% Robertson, 1% torx. I probably hang 5 sheets of drywall a year now so I use deck screws (ie Robertsons) and go slow at the end to avoid overdriving.

Use one of these for your drywall they work great.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/img/square-drive-dimpler-DS-0220.jpg

Any real drywaller would stay with Philips for this though.

Just because of per screw cost.


What do they use in electrical boxes in the States? I don't think I have ever seen anything other than Robertson here. The screwdrivers are color coded so any electrician will know that "a red one" means a #2 Robertson.

If you go to HD you get US NAFTA crap and it's Phillips.

Thirty years ago you need a slotted, Phillips and Robertson screwdriver. Today you need to buy one of those sets with 159 bits for handle all the stuff you encounter. Manufacturers all across the world are trying to get away from Phillips.

rmcphearson
02-25-2013, 12:30 PM
The wiring was originally outfitted with zip ties. That is a self portrait of the rover a few days after it landed on Mars. The Russians have been there for decades and don't have the budget for zip ties. Once you cut those damn things you can't reuse them...

kc5ezc
02-25-2013, 04:47 PM
Don't the Japanese have a screw head standard very similar to a phillips?
Seems some screws are made to that std not phillips and cam out occurs.

Jon Heron
02-25-2013, 04:53 PM
I have been to Japan many times and looked at allot of Japanese equipment and they seem much like the states, flat, phillips and hex head being the norm for screw fateners.
Cheers,
Jon

topct
02-25-2013, 05:04 PM
Don't the Japanese have a screw head standard very similar to a phillips?
Seems some screws are made to that std not phillips and cam out occurs.

Yes, or they used to. I run into them on their motorcycle engines anyway. They just don't quite fit our standard drivers.

Jon Heron
02-25-2013, 06:22 PM
Yes, or they used to. I run into them on their motorcycle engines anyway. They just don't quite fit our standard drivers.

Thats interesting, can anybody show an example of this? Besides my experience with Japan and Japanese equipment I also have experience with Japanese bikes dating back to my first complete engine rebuild which was a 1973 Yamaha RT3 360. I have had a few in between my current 2001 4 wheeler which is also a Yamaha, they all used standard metric screw fasteners and bolts...
The 73 RT3 had a bastard thread on the crank magneto nut but that was the only odd thing that I can recall...
I still have my first hammer driven impact screw driver that was given to me for the Yamaha, I didn't know what I was missing until my father gave it to me for my 15th birthday, one of the only way's to reliably remove a POS philips without striping it... :)
Cheers,
Jon

Ridgerunner
02-25-2013, 06:30 PM
I have the 3 piece set from McMaster (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-screwdrivers/=lmyfc0), 53325A61. They are called Japanese Industrial Standard (JIS) Screwdrivers.
Catalog page 2597.

Jon Heron
02-25-2013, 06:34 PM
Designed especially for the fasteners used in electronics assembly. The screwdriver tips have slightly sharper corners than Phillips tips, which have a more rounded shape
That explains why I never ran into them on any bikes I have wrenched on!
Cheers,
Jon

topct
02-25-2013, 07:08 PM
That explains why I never ran into them on any bikes I have wrenched on!
Cheers,
Jon

Okay.

lazlo
02-25-2013, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by ikdor
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/87394.htm

Thanks for finding that!.

That's a really great document! It's way more than just lacing -- it covers all sorts of wiring harness design, splices and connectors...

Willy
02-25-2013, 11:41 PM
That explains why I never ran into them on any bikes I have wrenched on!
Cheers,
Jon

Well actually Jon this discussion got me to thinking about the old days when I did a lot of wrenching on Japanese bikes. Several things always stood out with these bikes is that they used Phillips screws for everything, and they were hard to remove due to galvanic corrosion between the steel screws and aluminum cases.

But the biggest issue I always had was that I could never quite find a bit or driver that fit perfectly. They always seemed to not go into the screw head deep enough. Sometimes I would grind down the point in desperation. I always shrugged it off to my tools.

It never occurred to me that the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) Phillips screws were built to a different profile compared to the SAE profile screw drivers and bits that I used.

A link and a quote below.
http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips/step10/JIS-Japanese-Industrial-Standard/


Often improperly referred to as Japanese Phillips. Commonly found in Japanese equipment. JIS looks much like a Phillips screw (and even more similar to Frearson), but is designed not to cam out and will, therefore, be damaged by a Phillips screwdriver if it is too tight. Heads are usually identifiable by a single raised dot to one side of the cross slot. JIS B 1012:1985 screw standard is throughout the Asia market and Japanese imports. The driver has a 57 degree point with a flat tip, parallel wings.


Advantages and Disadvantages of JIS

Most people and companies outside of Japan have absolutely no idea what they are. With the similarity in appearance to the Frearson and the Phillips the screws are often damaged in removing and installing with the wrong tools. JIS tends not to camout like Philips. The JIS driver can be used on Phillips quite easily but not reciprically. Drivers are not easily available in North America, try your local RC Airplane hobby shop. Most RC Helicopters use JIS screws to mount the propeller. JIS-spec cross-head screws are generally marked with a single raised dot or an "X". JIS always fit Phillip fasteners, but because of slight design differences, Phillips drivers may not fit JIS fasteners. (unless the tip is ground down a bit).

topct
02-26-2013, 12:46 AM
I used to work at a motorcycle salvage business here in Spokane. I was familiar with an impact driver but never in my life did I have so much trouble as with those darn screws on the Japanese bikes. We did find some drivers that fit a little bit better from one of the parts suppliers we used but they were very pricey and tended to break very easily. I now replace all the screws on the little Honda motors I put together with ones made in China of all places. The phillips heads fit my drivers really well and even though I have to modify the heads a bit to reduce their diameter for clearance its worth the trouble. Besides what I have to pay for one Honda screw will pay for a hand full if the Chinese ones.

For what it's worth I get them at my local Fasteners dealer and I have noticed that searching other sources for the sizes I use, most all appear to be identical to what I am getting.

Spin Doctor
02-26-2013, 06:05 AM
Phillips Head Screws. The Three Jaw Chuck of the fastener world. :rolleyes:

A.K. Boomer
02-26-2013, 10:45 AM
I ran a motorcycle service department for years and we used to order allen head kits all the time to install because the phillips heads were so cheesy - and yes it was hard to find drivers that fit them correctly - that was one of the problems - the other was that the screws themselves seemed to be made out of silly putty...
Couple this to the fact that like Willy stated they liked to either corrode or molecular bond to the case material and it was a recipe for disaster...

I had a bit in one of my impact drivers set that fit like a glove and did not even have to use the hammer on the driver half the time,
to me most of the bad rap that the phillips heads get is improper fit tools - and the different combo's are getting worse and worse as there has to be about 50 various kinds now,,,

there are some sheet rock bits that fit the screws like a glove and what a difference that makes - I wish they all fit like the door striker plate screws fit my big driver, I barely have to put any insert pressure on it whilst turning and really pouring the coals to it - I don't know if my drivers hollow ground or what but it actually seems to suck the tool in...

not that id want to but you could almost use the design to toque cylinder head bolts on a small engine... :p

Evan
02-26-2013, 11:13 AM
You guys just cost me ten minutes of my remaining life reading all this crap. http://ixian.ca/pics10/biggrin.gif

Willy
02-26-2013, 11:26 AM
You guys just cost me ten minutes of my remaining life reading all this crap. http://ixian.ca/pics10/biggrin.gif

Welcome back Evan.

Payback's a b*tch.http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/250willy/cee48e43.jpg

Jon Heron
02-26-2013, 12:19 PM
Several things always stood out with these bikes is that they used Phillips screws for everything, and they were hard to remove due to galvanic corrosion between the steel screws and aluminum cases.
Yep, I can certainly relate to that! Same problem on old skidoo's too... Impact was a godsend!
I must have either gotten lucky with the bikes I wrenched on or perhaps that old impact driver I got has some JIS drivers in it.... It could also be that I smoked so much weed way back then that I just cant remember any problems with them....:p
With all the Japanese equipment I have looked at since about 2007 I did not notice any problems either, but they (Toyota) were building the equipment to come to Canada so perhaps they used the NA standard POS philips.... Who knows... I am glad I never ran into the issue though as I would likely have more grey hair then I do now. :)
Just what the world needed, another "standard" driver... :rolleyes:
Cheers,
Jon