View Full Version : OT - Gas Prices

03-27-2004, 12:52 AM
My cost of fuel has gone thru the roof with the recent increases. I do shows in several places in North America.

I don't care anything about the War or that Polical BS, somebody is making a lot of money and it's not the mom and pops gas stations.


03-27-2004, 01:36 AM
The crude prices just started falling yesterday,and the stories you here on the news about refinery shutdowns/repairs/overhauls are in fact true,I know it and live it our refinery work is off the charts,especially since we are near the refining capital of North America.

One other thing to consider is that less than %30 percent of our oil comes from the middle east,the bulk of the remainder comes in from Venesuala sp?,even though they are an OPEC country they are in the middle of some serious fluctuations politically,FARC,is cuasing major trouble in the pipelines at the same time making even more uncertain the supply.

If you want to blame someone for the current price then blame #1 Futures traders(the real profiteers)#2 Greenpeace and the Sierra club and other enviro-wacks#3 the EPA and #4people who think we sould all ride horses or walk except them.

The futures traders are making a killing as they nearly always do,its expected as they control the supply between the well and the refiner.

The enviro-wacks are currently blocking drilling in ANWAR,the California coast,Florida coast,The Gulf of Mexico,The entire eastern seaboard,basically anywhere we have plenty of our own oil.Greenpeace is currently blocking attempts to up grade a local refinery and always show up anytime industry is involved.They are nothing but SUV driving leather wearing hypocrites.

The EPA is also at fualt with its stupid formulation changes,these are a major factor in disrupting supply and distribution.Proof of this stupid policy is the need for two different formulations for Springfield,MO and Springfield,Ill,I guess the air doesn't cross the river there http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//rolleyes.gif

The final group,people who think we should all ride horses or walk,or more accurately Hollywood stars,its bad enough that we allow politicians to make our desicions for us,but for goodness sake,f------ moron actors?Paul McCartney's wife rings a bell on this one,she was big on doing away with I/C engines,airplanes you name it,but she had a private jet to go where she wanted(guess the horse wouldn't swim the Atlantic ocean).Why we let these know know nothing idiots dictate national policy is beyond me.

Bottom line the gripe with the oil companies goes back to Standard Oil,actually it goes back further than that to Cain and Able and has a root in jealosy.I'm not saying the oil companies are not making a profit and I'm not saying they are innocent,but they ain't the only ones who are guilty,in other words-LOOK IN THE MIRROR!!!!!Oil and the resulting technoligies are what made this country what it is in the world,those who hate us know this and that may not be Bin Ladin as much as it is Robert Redford. Rant mode off.

03-27-2004, 06:09 AM
don't worry,prices will drop around October,just in time for the election.that'll give'em all summer to gouge us.

J Tiers
03-27-2004, 09:21 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by wierdscience:
The EPA is also at fualt with its stupid formulation changes,these are a major factor in disrupting supply and distribution.Proof of this stupid policy is the need for two different formulations for Springfield,MO and Springfield,Ill,I guess the air doesn't cross the river there http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//rolleyes.gif

St Louis still has MTBA REQUIRED in gas, when it is illegal everywhere else....... More EPA craziness.

Then the EPA pollution requirements knock mileage down by 30% to 50%.

I still dont see why anti-pollution engines should burn so much more gas....I believe it is partly a manufacturer attitude......"burn however you want and let the catalyst fix it".

The diesel requirements have a 20% penalty in mileage and efficiency. See article in Machine Design (or Design News) recently.

03-27-2004, 09:29 AM
JF. Most of what you pay is in the form of taxes. We worked it out one day, and here in Illinois when gas was $1.50 a gallon we figured that the gas itself only cost about $0.79. The rest were taxes.
Any time you control a resource, you can dictate prices. Thats how the near east gets away with it. I've always thought it would be in our best interests to develope another source of fuel.

03-27-2004, 10:00 AM
MTBE is still in gas in NH as far as I know, the state has a lawsuit to stop it.

I love the statements about the hollywood actors and the privlidged few who think they know it all for us "peons" but live the high life none the less. Right on target.

Our gas psice is $1.73 for low grade, which I am forced to use, though the mid grade works better and more efficient in the brides commuter vehicle (don't know why, but get 4.0 MPG more on the mid grade, though 87 is the recommendation). She uses about 7.0 gallons a week at 31 mpg.

So our local environmental whackos (I am an environmentalist, but also a realist) are very happy about the gas prices being higher, seems they think it will stop us from killing the earth. I was out at the post office im my Ranger (which is my job vehicle, thus I have to have a bit of carrying capacity and 4x4 to get into the campground to get it ready as it is real muddy here). Talking to our local greenies I met there, both about as worthless as anyone I ever knew, and both who never walked further than from the car to the couch to get the remote, or from the car to the picket line for their "cause of the week"...both fairly well off, probably worth three times more than I will make in my lifetime, but digress in a bit of a snit.....

I got out of my Ranger to drop mail (turned it off of course), and was called to their Caddy Escalade (those big black caddys that are too big to fit in most normal garages, and would suffice as a two bedroom appartment), and given my daily dose (as the mayor of my city) of greenie prop-aganda about our traffic increasing in town, the probable killing of all wildlife on the main drag (most of which is JDB's) the gas prices causing people to drive less, and our local paper mill polluting the earth, and the local trucking house running more trips (business is suddenly good, people are working again)...all the while during the 20 minute diatribe I noticed the Escalade was idling.........

Of course I noticed, but had to post with wierds notes being on the board.....

It is probably not the vehicle that irks me, probably not the SUV issue, it is the double standard that people life so blatantly and thow in the face of others that just rips me.

Yup, do as I say, not as I do......

03-27-2004, 12:27 PM
In Mexico, an OPEC partner, I believe gas is still something like $.25. Maybe higher, but not the $1.80 a gallon we have here.

I know Canada is higher, that England is out of sight compared to America.

Why don't we build pipe lines in Russia and buy all of their crude? There are many other countries that produce oil outside of OPEC, so lets buy from them.


03-27-2004, 01:10 PM
The price of regular gas here in Williams Lake, BC is about $2.50 US per US gallon. BUT, 45% of that is tax. The real price of gas is $1.38, BUT, it costs about $2 - $3 to produce a barrel of crude in Saudi Arabia. That barrel sells for $35. It holds 45 gallons. A barrel of good crude can be cracked to about 80% gasoline if the refinery wishes. That is 36 gallons. So, not counting transportation, advertising, profit and tax as well as cost of cracking the real cost of gasoline at today's price of oil is about one dollar per gallon. Did you notice where all the money is going?

John Stevenson
03-27-2004, 01:36 PM
Just to make you guys feel happy our fuel is around 4.80 UKP per gallon.
On todays exchange that's $8.73 but our gallon is a bit larger than the US one.
Converted to $ per US gallon that works out at $7.27

Most of this is in taxes as our Mr Blair isn't as rich as your Mr Bush http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Only advantage we have is being a smaller country we don't have to drive as far to get bargains http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

John S.

Mike W
03-27-2004, 04:10 PM
$2.09 in Calif.

03-27-2004, 05:42 PM
Hidelly Ho Neighbor,

Duh' member dat wefund we'all got, lower taxes too (duh), someabodies gotta pay for da war(s), health care anyone, how'z a'come we have the highest household delinquencies, da'largest credit card debt and even da largest recored bankruptcies in the history of our country, in the last couple'a years. Time to turn down the music, change the channel on televison, put down the brew, slack off the joints and take a look'se outside the closet.



03-27-2004, 05:45 PM
Around $0.90/liter or $4.50/imperial gallon
Here in Newfoundland.
Some of the largest oil reserves in the World are just off our shore here in Newfoundland,but not one (1) liter is refined or used here.All goes to main land Canada.We get pennies in return!!

Spin Doctor
03-27-2004, 06:01 PM
I've cut back on unessecary trips and will most likely start riding the bike to work once the weather warms up. But to put this into perspective. In 1980 or so when gas first hit a buck a gallon for a national average what would of happened if the price had just kept pace with inflation. I think we'd be looking at 3 bucks a gallon in the US and most likely not batting an eye. On the multiple blends of gas out there that are tailoered to certain localities our local congresscritter (Paul Ryan R.WI) has proposed every year to require the EPA to eliminate the "botique" blends of gas and set a standard nation wide of just one or at the most 10 blends of gas IIRC. It never gets out of commitee. The same goes for his proposal to only allow SS and FICA tax dollars to be used for Social Security and Medicare. Too many politicians in DC are in favor of the status quo. If we really wanted to in this counrty we could have national energy independence. Granted it would require doing some things that some of might not like and somethings that I probably wouldn't like either. But no system is perfect. If I were king the programs we would start to push are
1) Increase the funding for research into workable fusion reactors. But I would take the project away from the DOE and the labs like Princeton, Lawrence Livermore and Scandia. I'd give the project to the Navy with the goal of developing something that can fit into the hull of a ship.
2) As a back-up I would instruct the DOE to begin construction of a gas cooled pebble bed test fission reactor.
3) Increase funding for solar cell efficency research. IIRC the current level of solar cell efficency would require 10,000 square miles of solar cell facilities to produce enough elecrticity for the US's current needs. That's a square 100 miles on a side including all of the access roads and support facilities that would be in the 10,000 square miles.
4) Fund a large test Ocean Thermal Power Plant. There was a pilot plant of this type operated off Hawii in the '70s. Basically they are a generating plant that uses the temperature differential between warm surface and cold deep water to cool and expand a working fluid and drive a turbine. A mechanical solar power plant
5) Reinstitute the tax deductions for increasing the energy efficancy of private homes
These are just some of the things that could be done from a view point of finding a solution to the bind of having our foreign policy being subjected to the political winds that may blow in from foreign shores

[This message has been edited by Spin Doctor (edited 03-27-2004).]

Alistair Hosie
03-27-2004, 07:12 PM
Only advantage we have is being a smaller country we don't have to drive as far to get bargains

John S.
Here's a picture of John getting the most for his money out of our expensive gas http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

03-27-2004, 07:17 PM
Let all start using grain alcohol and let the farmers make some money.


03-27-2004, 07:28 PM
Why don't we take a tip from Wal-Mart.

We should tell OPEC we won't pay more than $10 a barrell for oil. What are they going to do then, keep it?

03-27-2004, 07:43 PM
Majority of the SUV's get terrible mileage.

America is back where it was when JAPAN took over the car market for a while.

I had a 68 Dodge Dart with 383-4speed/4.11 gear, no heater, no radio. It got 4 mpg. It was a bad-ass. People who have never drove a big block in a small car just don't know.

I sold it. Got a 66 nova w/6 cylinder (then).. Now I got a Ranger Lowrider w/4.0-5 speed.. it gets about 25 mpg and that is too little.

I sure wish I had the Dart back. Probably OUR children will never know a car like that one. Factory race car.


03-27-2004, 07:46 PM
I still say even $2.00 is cheap for gas,look at all the work you get out of it.To me the real shocker is the price of a new car http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gifI could buy one tommorow,but I would have to live in it http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Alistair,you have confused me with John again! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Alcohol based fuel that is nothing but political pork,I should know,my grandfolks live in a big corn state,ADM makes all the money,you and I pay even more for a gallon and the engine runs like crap,not to mention all the rust on things like spark plug threads,no I'm affraid there is no replacement for Gas/diesil that compares.

Alistair Hosie
03-27-2004, 07:59 PM
whooooops was that your cae darin sorry I thought it was John Stevenson playing the tight a$$ed Scotsman again http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

is that me being racist again?

Alistair Hosie
03-27-2004, 08:00 PM
whooooops was that your car darin sorry I thought it was John Stevenson playing the tight a$$ed Scotsman again http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

is that me being racist again?

03-27-2004, 09:35 PM
The Germans in WW II ran their tanks on alcohol near the end of the war, maybe thats why they lost the war.

Run an engine on alternate fuels requires that the engine be abled to be tuned to that fuel. You can not take a car and suddenly convert it to propane or hydrogen. It requires some reworking.

My GTO would blow the doors off of many car, the milage was terrible, the maintenance was simple, take the weekend and rebuild the car.

If the Americas, both North and South, would only buy gas from themselves, there would be little need for the Arab states. If we helped the Russian develop their oil, we wouldn't need the Arab states.

These days the oil companies should give us the cars for free and mortgage the gas.

J Tiers
03-27-2004, 09:43 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by wierdscience:
Alcohol based fuel that is nothing but political pork,I should know,my grandfolks live in a big corn state,ADM makes all the money,you and I pay even more for a gallon and the engine runs like crap,not to mention all the rust on things like spark plug threads,no I'm affraid there is no replacement for Gas/diesil that compares.</font>

Well, depends if the vehicle is designed for it.

Alcohol has more energy per weight than gas, but that weight takes far more volume.

My S10 is rated for E85 (85% alky), which can be bought, but is of doubtful value. But it won't rust the works.

03-27-2004, 10:39 PM
Alcohol is mostly water,propane is far better than alcohol,but also more expensive than gas,if you want to see an engine last practicaly forever run it on propane,it will be limp wristed thou.

What really kills me is the fact that many American cities were setup for mass transportation i.e. streetcars etc and most were done away with.New Orleans is fixing to reopen the Canal street line after closing it and tearing up the tracks just 50 years ago.Makes lots of sense.

03-27-2004, 10:44 PM
Ah yes, the good old alcohol sham. Back in the 70's when carburettors were king and pollution control was in its infancy the government dreamed up a scheme to lean out our engines. You guessed it, just add alcohol to the gasoline and presto a lean A/F mixture. We have been living with this sham ever sinse even though it is called oxygenating the fuel or some other fancy name. Kind of silly now with closed cycle fuel control and knock control but the politicians press on for it has become a big give away program for ADM. To add insult to injury a large quantity of the alcohol is imported from Brazil.

Neil Peters

03-28-2004, 01:43 AM

Drinking alcohol is mostly water, fuel ethanol is 98% alcohol. There is a couple of percent water that is chemically combined and can be removed by treating the alcohol with lime. A couple of percent water makes almost no difference to the energy content which is somewhat lower than gasoline. Alcohol raises the octane rating but also raise the vapor pressure which can result in vapor lock problems in hot climates. Here the Petrocan stations sell gas with 10% alcohol and it works fine. All cars for the last decade have been made to run on at least 10% alcohol fuel. In cold climates like here in winter the gas has propane and butane added, called "winter gas".

03-28-2004, 11:44 AM
Ooops!meant exhuast is mostly water,but most fuels are that way,in any rate the reason you hardly ever see more than %10 alcohol content is because of it being very weak.If you want to run a higher content or straight alcohol then a higer degree of vaporization is needed.Either a vaporizing carb like those used on propane engines or a thermal loop like used on natural gas engines.

Its also interesting that Henrey Ford designed the "T" so it could run on alcohol as in his words"there are more stills in the country than gas pumps"just bear in mind the compression ratio of the engine in question.

The use of petroleum crude oil will and really is already shifting to different roles in society,more LNG is being used in power generation as well as a return to coal feeing up more crude for gasoline production.

The funny part is the new hydrogen craze,its amazing to me how many people think that hydrogen means indepedence from oil,actually the reverse is true,the hydrogen will be broken down from oil just like it is now,the only difference is its clean at the tail pipe.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif Check out this chemical makeup!-

03-28-2004, 11:47 AM
IF you want lower gas prices, open up more refineries, they have a much bigger impact on prices of gas then what the arabs do in Saudi Arabia. So I hear anyhow.

Al Messer
03-28-2004, 11:51 PM
I saw on the Fox News tonight where some guy in North Carolina was running a VW Diesel on used cooking Oil that the fast food places give him (so they won't have to pay to have it hauled away. Can't just dump it down the drains anymore.) Oh, he says the exhaust smells like French Fries!

03-29-2004, 12:03 AM
Amen Bill. All we need to do is open the wells we have here in Texas. Our oil falls under the control of the Railroad Commission. Yea, you read that right. Don't ask me why.

It's estimated that for every producing well in Texas, there's 250 that are capped. What's it cost to uncap a well? The RRC wants $250,000 just for the reopen fee. Then you have to have an environmental study done. If the study finds any adverse impact on wildlife, water tables or some nats life cycle, you lose your reopen fee.

We have the oil. We just can't get to it!

I just paid $1.64 for the middle grade (89 Octane). Just down the road were they make the stuff (Corpus Christi), they pay $1.89 for middle grade. Go figure.

03-29-2004, 12:16 AM
If you take an old Mecedez Deisel and fill the tank with Crisco Oil it will for for a bit, enough to make it up a hile and many a few miles more.