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taydin
03-13-2013, 04:14 PM
When waiting at traffic lights, sometimes I put the gear into neutral and take my foot off the clutch pedal. Other times I leave the gear engaged and keep my foot on the clutch while waiting. From a wear point of view, which one is better?

hitnmiss
03-13-2013, 04:39 PM
neutral clutch out saves the throw-out bearing.

Clutch in stops the transmission but at zero load I bet the wear on the trans is negligible.

I usually shift the trans into neutral about 3mph before I stop with out using the clutch. Win Win. LOL.

Gary Paine
03-13-2013, 04:44 PM
There is a lot of pressure on the throw out bearing with the clutch depressed and probably the clutch disk is rubbing the pressure plate and flywheel even though it is disengaged. Probably from the wear point of view, take it out of gear and let off the clutch.

BigMike782
03-13-2013, 04:47 PM
When being taught to drive(anyone can train a monkey to drive,I am TEACHING you people)I was told to never sit at a light in neutral in case there was an immediate need to move,accident avoidance/emergency vehicle.

Optics Curmudgeon
03-13-2013, 05:47 PM
How long does it take you to shift from neutral to first? A lot less time than it takes to realize there's that sort of problem (which are rare to begin with).

DICKEYBIRD
03-13-2013, 06:06 PM
Prolly not so important now but very important with many of the older British cars as it was a necessity to keep your foot off the clutch as much as possible. They had tiny crankshaft thrust washers and would wear out with the average driver's habits. They'd get so thin on 60's & 70's Triumphs that they'd spin out of the space between the crank journal & the center main. Then customers'd show up at the dealer complaining that the engine slowed way down when they pressed the clutch in.

The crank'd travel so far forward that the sides of all 4 (or 6) rods would bear against the crank journals and the friction would slow 'em way down.

Used to make a bundle drilling & tapping the main cap & adding a couple allen screws to keep that from happening again.:)

SteveF
03-13-2013, 06:07 PM
When being taught to drive(anyone can train a monkey to drive,I am TEACHING you people)I was told to never sit at a light in neutral in case there was an immediate need to move,accident avoidance/emergency vehicle.

In all my years of driving I've been sitting in the intersection twice when an accident occurred. In both cases the time interval from "those cars are going to crash" to impact, was far less time than it takes to do anything about it, and in both cases, just sitting there and not moving was the correct action to take.

To the OP, I put it in neutral.

Steve

Bill in Ky
03-13-2013, 07:13 PM
I put mine in neutral have for years .......... Out of habit I suppose, not realizing I left it in neutral.... it started rolling away at the gas pump last Friday, first time that's ever happened. Caught it easily, then looked around to see if anyone saw me ...
So be careful out there folks..

MotorradMike
03-13-2013, 07:25 PM
If you ride a bike you need to be ready pretty much all the time to get out of the way if need be so leave it in gear with the clutch in until a buffer piles up behind or there is obviously nobody, then put it in neutral and wait for the light to turn.
Worked for me so far, and I've had to get out of the way a few times.

SGW
03-13-2013, 07:26 PM
I was taught to put it in neutral with clutch out, for two reasons:

1. Less wear on the throwout bearing, and possibly on the clutch plate.
2. Safety. If you get rear-ended while stopped, your foot won't slip off the pedal and the car propel you into traffic.

I had 164,000 miles on my 21-year-old Toyota pickup's original clutch when the frame rusted through and the truck threatened to fold up, putting and end to it. Anybody else achieve notably long life on a clutch?

The Artful Bodger
03-13-2013, 07:50 PM
Neutral, however I only drive an auto trans nowadays.

jdunmyer
03-13-2013, 08:36 PM
I had 164,000 miles on my 21-year-old Toyota pickup's original clutch when the frame rusted through and the truck threatened to fold up, putting and end to it. Anybody else achieve notably long life on a clutch?


I've never owned a vehicle that was my daily driver that had an auto trans. Car is a VW Jetta w/5-speed, truck is a Dodge w/CTD and 6-speed manual. I personally believe that a clutch in a car should be a lifetime proposition, you should never wear it out. If you want the throwout and pilot bearings to last that long, you'll use neutral at a traffic light.

FWIW: The older VW Diesels had clutch plates that were prone to breaking the torque springs. If a piece of said broken spring fell out of its slot, it could cause the clutch to lock up. Because of that, I changed the clutch plate in our 1983 Rabbit at 161,000 miles. Comparing it to the new one, it was hard to detect any wear at all. I overhauled the engine in my 1991 VW Jetta at 261,000 miles and reinstalled the original clutch plate. Darn near reinstalled the original crank bearings, they looked that good. The problem with the engine was a couple of broken rings and slightly worn cylinders, about .005" over, just under the ridge. The blowby was awful!

J Tiers
03-13-2013, 09:01 PM
2. Safety. If you get rear-ended while stopped, your foot won't slip off the pedal and the car propel you into traffic.

I had 164,000 miles on my 21-year-old Toyota pickup's original clutch when the frame rusted through and the truck threatened to fold up, putting and end to it. Anybody else achieve notably long life on a clutch?

I drove another 100,000 miles on a bad clutch.... juddered when I bought the car, not when I got rid of it. I just press the clutch... modern vehicles have ball clutch throwout bearings.

Been rear-ended twice at lights.... in neither case was there any lurch into traffic.

If my foot is on the brake, the otehr one is on the clutch, a long-long time of driving clutch cars develops that habit..... And clutch cars are just about "car-jack-proof"....... nobody knows how to drive them.

A.K. Boomer
03-13-2013, 09:06 PM
How long does it take you to shift from neutral to first? A lot less time than it takes to realize there's that sort of problem (which are rare to begin with).

I agree but there's even a bigger reason - even with a pretty snappy engine you still got to rev it up before you let the clutch out - your left foot and your right hand should have it in gear whilst your right foot is pressing on the throttle - no real time wasted,

as far as the original post, if the light is unkown as far as how long it's going to take to change then put it in neutral - far easier on the throw-out bearing and that is your major concern - you will not wear a tans out ever just sitting in neutral at a light not matter how many consecutive times you do it...

If you know the light is about to change (like seeing yellow on the 90 degree side or being familiar with the light and knowing how long it takes while you were approaching it) then just hold your foot on the clutch - no big whoop, your saving the clutch master and slave a couple cycles of wear and tear and with some vehicles that can be as much labor as a throw-out bearing

weigh it out and run with it, just don't hold your foot down on the clutch for the duration of every light or you will be sorry, it's not just the revolutions under load that get a throw-out bearing - they are generally designed to handle that, it's the fact that you will literally spin the grease out of them, and that they are not designed to handle - I really don't know if I ever had to replace a bad throw-out bearing that was still swimming in grease, they dry out - and then they fail...

lwalker
03-13-2013, 09:13 PM
LOL. Good to know I'm not the only one. In my case, I came out of the gas station to see my car slowly rolling away and I ran after it thinking it was being stolen before realizing there was no one in it.

Dumb mistake we'll never (hopefully) make again :-)

Lyndon


I put mine in neutral have for years .......... Out of habit I suppose, not realizing I left it in neutral.... it started rolling away at the gas pump last Friday, first time that's ever happened. Caught it easily, then looked around to see if anyone saw me ...
So be careful out there folks..

saltmine
03-13-2013, 09:25 PM
I still had the original clutch in my '84 Chevy S-10 Blazer when I sold it. It had 190,000 miles on it, and yes, I did have to replace the original transmission because of an oil change place error.

A.K. Boomer
03-13-2013, 09:36 PM
wow u guys are bringing back memories --- one day after a well needed nap I look out front and my car is across the street over the curb and stuffed into a neighbors shrub , Im thinking VANDALS!

go over and its still locked and in neutral with the parking brake off... get in and drive it back home all sheepishly - I guess nobody seen - few months later I look out in my drive and my cars gone, look across the street - nope,
go out and this time its my next door neighbor (who luckily wasn't home either), same thing except this time I had the wheels cut so it looped in the road and went over the curb and stopped just short of hitting her house...

I was kinda going through the closest thing to a divorce that I ever had to deal with, my heart goes out to guys who have kids and a vindictive woman...

bruto
03-13-2013, 10:25 PM
I was always taught to put it in neutral with the clutch out, but that was a long time ago. The car I learned to drive on was an old Peugeot with a non rotating fiber throwout bearing that required a drop of oil down a little tube every two weeks, and woe betide you if you forgot too often! But aside from saving the throwout bearing, it was deemed a good idea to be able to move your feet for a moment and avoid the danger of accidentally letting go of the clutch. You can usually see when a light is about to change and put it in gear soon enough to avoid delays.

I've driven some clutches over a quarter million miles, many more well into the hundred thousands, and never had a lining fail, so I guess I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

kf2qd
03-13-2013, 10:30 PM
Seems to be a lot of worry about nothing. Have had a number of vehicles with a standard tranny and never had to replace a throwout bearing. Have had 2 clutches wear out, but they were used vehicles and I never wore out a second one on them. One of those vehicles had a hydraulic clutch and the slave cylinder was bad. If the spline the clutch disk rides on is in good shape then the clutch disk should be free to move away from the flywheel so friction there is minimal. If there is much friction then it will be hard to put the tranny in gear from neutral. A good sign that something needs maintenance.

As far as Motorcycles in Neutral - as most of them have a wet clutch, they don't always release nicely when you engage the clutch in neutral and so you grind thte gears when putting the tranny in first. I have put over 140,000 miles on a 78 Goldwing and only did clutch work when one of the bolts came loose at 125,00- miles. Still had the original clutch when I parked it for the last time.

Black Forest
03-14-2013, 01:26 AM
Here in Germany if you have to stop for more than 30 seconds at a light or train crossing you are supposed to shut your car off! There are even signs to remind you to do it. And you don't want to be sitting in your car or truck with the engine running to stay warm waiting for your wife to come out of a store, etc.. I have had people tap on my window in the food supermarket parking lot when I had the truck running with the AC on. tap, tap, motion with fingers to turn key!

lakeside53
03-14-2013, 01:48 AM
I was taught to put it in neutral with clutch out, for two reasons:

1. Less wear on the throwout bearing, and possibly on the clutch plate.
2. Safety. If you get rear-ended while stopped, your foot won't slip off the pedal and the car propel you into traffic.

I had 164,000 miles on my 21-year-old Toyota pickup's original clutch when the frame rusted through and the truck threatened to fold up, putting and end to it. Anybody else achieve notably long life on a clutch?

I'm at 155K with my 4wd 1990 mazda pickup. Beat to alll heck, hauled a zillion tons of wood, but still going strong, so I'll beat you in a year or two. :)

yep.. I'm a neutral when stopped guy.

The Artful Bodger
03-14-2013, 02:30 AM
..... tap, tap, motion with fingers to turn key!

Our culture provides an appropriate finger motion with which to respond.

.RC.
03-14-2013, 02:38 AM
Happens to the best of us

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfVqIiwgous

Black Forest
03-14-2013, 02:43 AM
If you give someone the finger here in Germany you might get a surprise in the mail. A pretty big fine. Not all things here in Germany are so easy. Same as if you yell at someone or cuss them. Could cost you a bunch of money. It happened to a friend of mine's wife. And you are guilty until proven innocent. Or at least that is how it seems.

Euph0ny
03-14-2013, 04:52 AM
...you don't want to be sitting in your car or truck with the engine running to stay warm waiting for your wife to come out of a store, etc...

One of the reasons, I think, why electric cars will (did) not catch on - the need to keep the engine running for heating and cooling.

As somebody who used to live near a level crossing on a busy German train line, I have to say that I might well have been one of the finger waggers. I was and am very much in favour of folks' not polluting the air and making unnecessary engine noise while stationary at closed crossing gates - there is plenty of time to restart the engine while the gates are going up again.

IIRC, (some) newer BMW/Mini and Mercedes cars incorporate an automatic engine-off-engine-on mode in their motors for city driving.

taydin
03-14-2013, 05:04 AM
Here in Germany if you have to stop for more than 30 seconds at a light or train crossing you are supposed to shut your car off!

Wow, that's radical ... Well, have the officials measured a reduction in air pollution after this law went into effect?

taydin
03-14-2013, 05:10 AM
Thanks for the responses guys, so it's better not to keep the clutch engaged unnecessarily. The clutch in my 2002 Honda Civic is about to die, I feel vibration during the initial movement. But this is probably the disc itself, not the throw out bearing...

ptjw7uk
03-14-2013, 05:10 AM
Taking a different slant on this - when I was working for a local authority(Council) the Borough Engineer decide he would like all the Authority vehicles to be painted in a more prominent colour - bright orange. So we did a search on the colour of vehicle involved in accidents over a 20 years period and the colour didn't make a jot of difference!! So my view is if you don't see it coming in neutral or not don't matter!

peter

EVguru
03-14-2013, 05:50 AM
At one time many clutch release bearings were a graphite block and 'riding' the clutch pedal would wear it out. These days it's not uncommon for there to be a weak spring keeping the bearing in constant contact with the pressure plate fingers as most wear occours when the bearing is accellerated from zero to several thoushand rpm.

Quite a few cars are now using a concentric clutch slave cylinder (often with integral bearing) to give a lighter clutch with better feel (and yes, it does!). Given the work needed to replace a faulty cylinder, it should be done along with a clutch change, but often isn't. The extra labor involved is practically zero, so you'd just be paying for the new cylinder.

vpt
03-14-2013, 07:52 AM
I do both depending on time spent at the stop. Like someone else mentioned I also pop the trans out of gear while rolling up to some stops without depressing the clutch.

I have also learned over the years how to condition a slipping clutch by abusing it sort of.

ikdor
03-14-2013, 08:15 AM
As others have mentioned, all modern clutch bearings are permanently engaged to prevent slip on acceleration of the balls. This makes clutch bearing life effectively a matter of grease life. Keeping the clutch depressed (like everyone in the Netherlands does) will slightly raise the temperature of the clutch bearing but it's a non issue.
Now if you're living in the desert this will be another matter and I expect that is the only place in the world where you could see a correlation between clutch behaviour and clutch bearing life.
The rest of you can do what you prefer.
For those interested: current OEM specifications for clutch release bearings are around 150-180C ambient and about 240-320.000km service life. If too many failures show up before that at the dealer, the bearing manufacturer will be held accountable.

Igor

J Tiers
03-14-2013, 08:43 AM
The clutch in my 2002 Honda Civic is about to die, I feel vibration during the initial movement. But this is probably the disc itself, not the throw out bearing...

As I said before, I drove another 100,000 miles with a clutch that did that..... I cured it! Even though I keep my foot on the clutch most of the time when stopped (if not too long). What you describe is what I called "judder" of the clutch. All I did was to engage the clutch as smoothly as possible, and it quit doing that.

When the clutch is worn, it will usually either start to squeak, or else one day it just slips.




Quite a few cars are now using a concentric clutch slave cylinder (often with integral bearing) to give a lighter clutch with better feel (and yes, it does!). Given the work needed to replace a faulty cylinder, it should be done along with a clutch change, but often isn't. The extra labor involved is practically zero, so you'd just be paying for the new cylinder.

My S-10 has that evil invention of the devil. So when the shop replaced the clutch they also replaced that part. BIG MISTAKE.

The part they put in was bad.... so in a couple days, when I was driving many hundred miles away from home, the clutch stopped working. I had to pump it many times with my foot to release it.

When I got home, I took it to them and complained..... OF COURSE IT WORKED PERFECTLY, so they thought "this fool can't drive a clutch car"..... The very next day it quit again.... and in a mile or two it worked perfectly again. This kept happening, I kept taking it back, and they probably just kept the truck a dauy each time and gave it back, thinking what an idiot I was. And I was thinking what idiots THEY were. Once I had to drive 30 miles in second gear, because it wouldn't shift out of second... the clutch wouldn't release far enough. Of course it worked fine when they had it (or they said so).

Eventually, I gave up on "dumb and dumber", they obviously were not even trying..... I went to the dealer, and it cost me the whole job cost AGAIN to take the thing apart and replace the bad replacement cylinder with cylinder #3.......

Even THEY thought I had a short between the ears, but they had their mechanic drive it home and back the next day.... That cured their doubts.... I understand he very nearly had to have it towed back to the shop......

The ORIGINAL cylinder would probably have still been working fine if I had NOT "been smart" and had them replace it.

Stinking bar-stewards who invented that concentric cylinder should have throat slit with that razor that someone else was complaining about before.

jdunmyer
03-14-2013, 09:11 AM
wow u guys are bringing back memories --- one day after a well needed nap I look out front and my car is across the street over the curb and stuffed into a neighbors shrub , Im thinking VANDALS!

go over and its still locked and in neutral with the parking brake off... get in and drive it back home all sheepishly


That's a pet peeve of mine: foreign cars with manual transmissions usually have a hand-operated parking brake. My Dodge truck has the American-style foot brake w/hand release. Huge pain in the rear when I want to stop and exit the vehicle with the engine running, such as when hitching up a trailer.

As far as an automobile goes, I nearly always use the parking brake when exiting my VW, engine running or not. Have gotten a surprise when I forgot the brake and also left it in neutral.

A.K. Boomer
03-14-2013, 10:20 AM
If you give someone the finger here in Germany you might get a surprise in the mail. A pretty big fine. Not all things here in Germany are so easy. Same as if you yell at someone or cuss them. Could cost you a bunch of money. It happened to a friend of mine's wife. And you are guilty until proven innocent. Or at least that is how it seems.


Wow - and I thought we were the worst for lawyers - that's crazy BF

on the other hand and in another post of yours about running vehicles with ac on and such - that's a fine line esp. if your doing it for heat to stay warm but it's kinda cool that people are that conscientious about burning fuel over there, the attitude here still seems to be if you can afford it then it's nobody else's business...

tdkkart
03-14-2013, 11:35 AM
When waiting at traffic lights, sometimes I put the gear into neutral and take my foot off the clutch pedal. Other times I leave the gear engaged and keep my foot on the clutch while waiting. From a wear point of view, which one is better?


A couple things you should understand.
#1. The majority of Americans are too lazy to bother with a manual transmission
#2. The majority of Americans are not bright enough to learn to drive a manual transmission at all, let alone drive one on a daily basis.

For this reason, we can hardly buy a vehicle with a manual transmission.
Car salesman look at you like you're nucking futs when you ask for a manual trans, and most of them can't drive a manual trans car themselves.

Turn the engine off at a stop light or train crossing??? Jeez, I can only imagine the traffic nightmares this would cause. Probably 50% would forget to
put their vehicles in Park and not be able to get them started again.

If you think I have next to ZERO faith in the intelligence of the average American population you are absolutely correct.
I work in maintenance in a factory and in my off hours I work for a volunteer ambulance service, believe me I see ALL varieties of intelligence and lack thereof.

Euph0ny
03-14-2013, 11:55 AM
Wow - and I thought we were the worst for lawyers - that's crazy BF

This has nothing to do with lawyers, but may well involve the police. Causing offence to a person's honour is a criminal offence under paragraph 185 of the German Criminal Code, and it's punishable by imprisonment of up to one year or a fine, and by double those penalties if it is accompanied by an act of physical violence.

Flipping someone the bird while driving usually attracts five to seven penalty points upon the flipper's licence (18 points is automatic loss of the driving licence). Doing it to your boss is grounds for dismissal.

A.K. Boomer
03-14-2013, 12:09 PM
while I agree people are way too quick to flip someone off that's kinda crazy, it's very offensive and some people do it on a whim - I don't think iv ever done it till someone crosses that line with me, but i don't think it should be something that should be "policed" it pretty much police's itself around these parts...

as far as doing it to your boss - just depends - was actually a way of greeting with one every morning but of course all in jest - for the most part lol...


TDKcart that's a sad truth esp. for city folk,,,
im about the opposite - I actually have trouble with automatics that have that wide brake pedal when I go for the clutch out of habit while pulling up to a stop light or sign...

taydin
03-14-2013, 01:45 PM
I also have an automatic. But while the automatic consumes 9.3L/100Km, the manual only consumes only about 6L/100Km. Same class car, same engine size. Considering that gasoline costs about 12$/Gallon here (that's right, twelve freakin dollars!), most people stay away from the automatics.

jdunmyer
03-14-2013, 02:43 PM
Interesting article, germane to the thread: http://www.chevrolet.com/chevy-culture/news/joys-of-driving-stick.html

camdigger
03-14-2013, 02:45 PM
I also have an automatic. But while the automatic consumes 9.3L/100Km, the manual only consumes only about 6L/100Km. Same class car, same engine size. Considering that gasoline costs about 12$/Gallon here (that's right, twelve freakin dollars!), most people stay away from the automatics.

9.3 l/100 km is a lot. My 2012 Xtrail 2000cc, auto, full load, gets 7.2 - 7.4 depending on filter cleanliness and driving pattern...

camdigger
03-14-2013, 02:47 PM
Down here at least euro diesel is cheaper than gasoline by $0.30/gal or more...

ckalley
03-14-2013, 03:44 PM
I had 225,000 miles on my '85 VW Golf Diesel and it still had the original clutch in it. Lots of highway driving - I got as much as 50MPG.
Mostly I'd put it in neutral with my foot off the clutch pedal at stop lights.

Craig

A.K. Boomer
03-14-2013, 08:04 PM
Pretty sure the 85 golf diesel is mostly immune to throw-out bearing trouble due to them actually being inside the trans and therefor swimming in constant 90 wt.

they have a pushrod that runs right through the center of the mainshaft and this is what disengages the pressure plate...

"spinning the grease" out of the bearing cannot happen unless you run the tranny low on fluid...

J Tiers
03-14-2013, 09:26 PM
That article or the anecdotal reports of the difference in mileage between stick and automatic may have gone out with the dinosaurs...... modern integrated drivetrain cars shift as and when they please, specifically for maximum mileage.... it is unlikely that you will do better by hand, shifting "by guess or by golly". What you CAN do with a stick is to coast down hills in neutral. I can , in some places around here, go a mile or more of gentle downhill travel without touching the throttle or brake, and not going much over or under the speed limit.

Plus, many drivers who drive a stick do so for "performance"..... meaning that they are basically lead-foot drivers, roaring up to lights and slamming on the brakes, and accelerating away with throttle pedal firmly flattened on floor...... going faster uphill, and hitting the brakes on the way down.

As for diesel..... usually about 20% better..... except for all the anti-pollution stuff. European cars are illegal here, they have no pollution controls compared to US cars. And here diesel is usually just enough more expensive that it sometimes pays, but often costs, to drive a diesel vs a gasser.

The practical diesel has been more efficient..... the theoretical gas vehicle is more efficient, according to at least one of my engine books.

darryl
03-14-2013, 10:09 PM
There's a lake near here which is about 3 miles from where I used to live. Once you did the first mile back from the lake, you could coast for the next 2 miles +. These days there's two stop signs that you have to run, and you have to avoid intersecting traffic. Part of the route back is uphill and over a bridge, but if you didn't slow down enough to make it safely you could cross the bridge and then do another half mile or so. There's at least two points where you'd darn near be up on two wheels. I've done that route dozens of times on the bicycle, and lots of times in the LandCruiser- which, by the way, has gone nearly 200,000 miles with no clutch trouble at all. The clutch was done once at 100,000 when the engine was bored out and a higher performance cam installed. Nearly 300,000 on that baby now. Probably good for another 100 at least-

I always use neutral when stopped, but mostly because I don't want to wear my leg out.

digr
03-14-2013, 10:11 PM
I have mainly ford and dodge pickups the Ford 4 speed and the dodge 5 speed and only use the clutch when first starting out and if I have to stop, with the Dodge I put it in neutral and roll to a near stop well holding pressure on the shifting lever going into first gear and when you are near a complete stop it will pop into first, let it roll a bit and go. When making a turn I pop it into neutral and hold pressure on the shifter to third gear and it will go in when going slow enough. You can shift up or down after you get used to it.

bruto
03-14-2013, 10:30 PM
My son had a slightly newer Jetta diesel and another son an 86 Golf, and I had an 80 Rabbit. All had the odd VW style clutch design with the pressure plate on the engine side and the pushrod through the tranny, but they were dry plates just like normal clutches.

A.K. Boomer
03-15-2013, 12:38 AM
yup - the clutch is dry just like any other - but the TO bearing lives inside the trans...

Evan
03-15-2013, 04:28 AM
Wow, that's radical ... Well, have the officials measured a reduction in air pollution after this law went into effect?

That is a pretty old law. It was that way in '95 when we visited. That was our first trip and I was puzzled about the fact that there were stop and yield signs on the traffic light poles. I found out the first night we were out late. They turn off the traffic lights at a late hour like 10:00 pm. Then you follow the signs. They turn back on before rush hour.

Germany is famous for rules and not just for driving. Until fairly recently they had rules about what you could name your kids. It must be pronounceable in German and it must clearly indicate the gender of the child. No Frank Zappa names like "Moon Unit". They wouldn't register the name if they didn't like it.

I once spent a 4 hour wait at the Frankfurt Airport playing ring around the rosie with the customs officials to exempt VAT on some items of jewelry I had bought in Denmark. Each time I tried to get my VAT refund the guy inside the secure zone complained I didn't have this or that particular stamp on the form. I would leave the secure zone to visit the customs clerk and he would put another stamp on the papers. He had at first tried the "Me not speak English" so I switched to German. Then back in through security, then nope, need another stamp, back out, one more stamp about six times. I had the time to waste and I don't give up easy. They finally had to refund the $150 or so VAT they owed me.

Doozer
03-15-2013, 07:59 AM
I have mainly ford and dodge pickups the Ford 4 speed and the dodge 5 speed and only use the clutch when first starting out and if I have to stop, with the Dodge I put it in neutral and roll to a near stop well holding pressure on the shifting lever going into first gear and when you are near a complete stop it will pop into first, let it roll a bit and go. When making a turn I pop it into neutral and hold pressure on the shifter to third gear and it will go in when going slow enough. You can shift up or down after you get used to it.

Say goodbye to your syncronizers if you drive and shift like that!

--Doozer

vpt
03-15-2013, 08:19 AM
Say goodbye to your syncronizers if you drive and shift like that!

--Doozer



I was going to say, horrible for the synchros! You are using a little brass ring in the transmission to slow or speed up the vehicle to get it in gear that way even if you think "it is close". What you are wearing out on the little brass ring is about 10 .010" groves. Once those are worn you won't be able to get it in gear even with the clutch without all kinds of grinding, eventually rejection and even pop outs.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSc1A7zAu1VOQ5hSRfyh7NMH5k3JGrX-l8eAj5sJvjYS8vqCIRq

FYI you can even get a vehicle moving from a dead stop without the clutch by just putting pressure on the shifter towards first gear and holding it there while the vehicle starts moving slowly up to speed where the gear engages. But its not good at all for it.

A.K. Boomer
03-15-2013, 10:16 AM
yes very bad practice and your not going to pull it off without the occasional grind - and it's not the gears teeth that are grinding, except for reverse all gears are engaged at all time so it's impossible to "grind a gear" (unless you have an old school "crash box")

- its the engagement dogs on the sides of them that take the punishment - and once pushed past their wear limit the tranny will start popping out of that "gear speed"

Evan
03-15-2013, 01:34 PM
My '59 Land Rover has no synchro in 1st or 2nd, only 3rd and 4th. You get pretty good at the down shifting.

Doozer
03-15-2013, 02:04 PM
My '59 Land Rover has no synchro in 1st or 2nd, only 3rd and 4th. You get pretty good at the down shifting.

??? Just double-clutch when upshifting and match RPMs downshifting, right?

--Doozer

Evan
03-15-2013, 02:24 PM
Yep. In low range it isn't a problem. You can start from stopped in any gear. The final drive ratio in 1st is 45 to 1.

You double clutch when down shifting.

digr
03-15-2013, 08:51 PM
That strange never a grind and have been doing it that way since the 70s and never changed a clutch plate or a transmission.

J. Randall
03-15-2013, 10:42 PM
When I was a kid I learned to shift without a clutch in an old 50 model Chevy pickup. When I got good at shifting on the go I started playing with it from a dead stop, it had a really smooth slow idle, and I got to where I could slip it in to granny or reverse either one without touching the clutch pedal. It would just slip in without a hind of a grind and lurch into motion. I don't think that old box was synchronized, but I never hurt anything inside of it, so never got to look at the inside. I drove it everyday for about 2 yrs.

A.K. Boomer
03-15-2013, 11:47 PM
yeah you have all the needed elements to pull that off - low smooth idle and granny gear or a low reverse,

what also helps is a bunch of drive train slop in the trans and rear end, anything to buy you that extra millisecond of engagement before movement,

try it in something that's tight and with a long first gear and it's a different story...

jdunmyer
03-16-2013, 09:14 AM
I had an old POS Ford Pinto that I gave to my buddy's 16 Y.O. daughter. The synchronizer for 2nd was totally shot, the only way you could downshift at a corner was to double-clutch. Not a problem for me, as I had learned the technique many years before, but I had to teach her. It made me SO PROUD to be riding with her and see her double-clutch as good as any trucker.

That thing also had a bad clutch, if you got on it hard at high RPM in 4th gear, it would slip. I told Robin about it and warned her to keep her foot out of the carburetor if she wanted the clutch to live. She did, and it did, she drove it until the spring mounts rusted through.

A.K. Boomer
03-16-2013, 11:44 AM
Im with you on that one - that would (or should) make any pappa proud, very cool story,

Even though iv got pretty sound syncro's (at the moment) im always double clutching when approaching tight turns and dropping it down a gear from 3rd to second or second to first, it's just good race practice and makes it easier on the syncro's as the gear drops right in without delay.

Iv gotten fairly good at the "heel toeing" the gas and brake pedal too, it' makes it so you can be braking for the turn whilst still giving the throttle a quick bump for the double clutching to be effective - I use my right foots toe part on the brake and with the foot diagonal can just get a heel on the throttle - very nice for tight turns that you want to sling-shot out of by keeping the engine in it's maximum HP range.

My trans has got almost 200,000 miles on it - but - its a honda and it's still fairly solid - there's one area where things are showing up and it's second gear syncro - this is very common as second gear takes the most abuse,
The area where it shows usually would never be found out by most people but when I first got my car and brought it around I just couldn't help myself when sitting at a light and a hot mustang or camero is to the left of me reving their engine, It seemed like every big block american car want's to dust a honda... lol
It's crazy to be sitting there with a normally aspirated 1.6 liter and knowing very well they have over 5 liters under the hood - and im at a mile high which absolutely kills performance esp. in a V-tech which is so reliant on flow,
But if there's one thing I know how to do it is make a car launch off the line, First- I would look for a safe situation and also those concerned with safe situations (uh uhm) - second - I didn't announce it that im the least bit interested by the immature tactics of reving your engine up a minute or two before the light changes - third I keep an eye for the yellow light on the 90 degree side of the traffic light and make sure it's a light that does not have the separate timed left turn lanes (very important) last but not least I mildly increase rpm's kinda sneaky like to about 2,500 about a second before the change - they usually couldn't hear me due to all their own increasing "hoopla" and then one last check of the intersection for anyone trying to make a late yellow-then- last but not least when the light changes I "use too" tack it up to about 7,300 rpm's and dump the clutch, and even though the cars de-tuned due to altitude (although iv compensated some with a few tricks of the trade:p) It "use too" roast the "far from stock" fairly gummy p 205-17-40 series kumho's all the way through first and then I would literally BANG second with an extremely fast powershift -this usually enabled me to burn through the first part of second whilst keeping the RPM's up so the car does not fall on it's face - critical for engines that produce there power more on the RPM side of the spectrum rather than torque --- I didn't set out to abuse my car this way, it just happened in the heat of battle and when your looking to your left and your side by side with one of those monsters, you have to do everything you can to either hang or get the edge - for the most part I usually would end up surprising them by staying ahead to over 45 to 50mph, BUT most times it cost's me a clash in second gear engagement dogs, The syncro's getting ever so slightly weak - but this situation is asking allot - it simply does not have any time to work - you need a very sharp (new) syncromesh to be able to pull off lightening fast powershifts, a good powershift is about as polar opposite to double clutching as you can get... but what a benefit to use the shift time to then again store up some flywheel momentum for a nice little secondary launch...


Im out after 45 or 50mph due to two factors - first off I don't want to speed more than 5mph over when doing that, not out to get anyone hurt - just out to make sure the road is clear and have a little fun.

The other thing is - is it's all over for my little pea-shooter after that - it will fall on it's face and the big cubic inch engines will have a feeding frenzy...

Im sure VPT's got some real stories - but my entire point is that it's amazing what you can accomplish with just a little technique...

MaxxLagg
03-16-2013, 05:41 PM
Source
http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/StGB.htm

Section 185 Insult

Insult shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine and, if the insult is committed by means of violence, with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.

But!

Section 199 Insults Committed Reciprocally

If an insult is immediately reciprocated, then the judge may declare both insulters or one of them to be exempt from punishment.

Actually, some interesting reading there.

tdmidget
03-16-2013, 09:19 PM
Source
http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/StGB.htm

Section 185 Insult

Insult shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine and, if the insult is committed by means of violence, with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.

But!

Section 199 Insults Committed Reciprocally

If an insult is immediately reciprocated, then the judge may declare both insulters or one of them to be exempt from punishment.

Actually, some interesting reading there.

Sounds like something Dianne Feinstein might come up with.

J Tiers
03-16-2013, 09:58 PM
There are quantities of insulting gestures from other cultures which may be used without fear of prosecution.