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ahidley
05-08-2013, 07:59 AM
This is kinda OT but with the diverse knowledge here perhaps I can get help. I have a 1987 Caddy cimarron with a digital dash cluster made by yazaki that has failed. It appears that parts are no longer available for it. The IC chips listed below are needed and I cant find them anywhere.
I did find a replacement cluster from a junk yard 1/2 way across the USA and when I recieved it the mileage (odometer) did not luminate.

CAD-M-3
88501 477L
8635 Z05

CAD-D-1
8851 477L
8619 Z20

E4C7J-S-0
6301V1E70PJ
6E1

ER-1451I
8626CBA

MB4052
8617 M26

TC4093BP
8627H

TD62504P

MaxHeadRoom
05-08-2013, 10:24 AM
Some of those IC's show as obsolete so they could be hard to come by, you may be able to sub some such as the TD62504p which is a simple transistor array, the common ones now are darlington arrays and quite common.
Also some IC's in auto's are proprietary some are Eprom version which require programming.
No way you can use the parts of the other one and combine the two?
Have you exhausted Wreckers etc?
Max.

ahidley
05-08-2013, 12:07 PM
Some one else said that they might be e-proms...
I was told that the "processor" chip was bad. Its one of the first 3 listed above.
Within the cluster there are two circuit boards. I switched the boards in the two clusters and from this determined it was on one board. The same on each cluster. This was powered up on a bench as well as in the car. The car has NO electrical issues. The chips listed are only on one board.
The car is 26 years old and the cluster is in the weather if the windshield is sold. Because of this its almost impossible to find one in a junk yard. The one that I did find cost 10X more than the entire car cost the junk yard.

Benta
05-08-2013, 05:21 PM
I can only partially help you, but here goes:

#1: unknown, probably a customized/ASIC part

#2: unknown, probably a customized/ASIC part.

#3: Hitachi HD6301V1 microcontroller. Bad news: it's preprogrammed and customized.

#4: no idea.

#5: Fujitsu analog IC, probably an A/D converter.

#6: Toshiba CMOS logic. Available everywhere, either as Toshiba TC4093, Texas Instruments CD4093, ON Semiconductor MC14093 and, and, and...

#7: Toshiba analog IC, probably a transistor array or something like that.

Hope this helps,

Benta.

Paul Alciatore
05-08-2013, 08:09 PM
Sounds like we are getting to the point where a $5 chip, which is no longer available, can "total" a vehicle.

Three cheers for digital.

GKman
05-09-2013, 05:22 AM
Maybe being in the weather doesn't hurt the chips. ?
Good luck.

Stuart Br
05-09-2013, 06:02 AM
Sounds like we are getting to the point where a $5 chip, which is no longer available, can "total" a vehicle.

Three cheers for digital.

It has been that way for some time in the general electronics field. I remember having challenges sourcing customized programmed or ASIC parts some 30 years ago. This was particularly true from equipment manufacturers who didn't want 3rd party repairers fixing their kit.
Of course it has got a lot worse and the proliferation of digital electronics in the auto industry is a real challenge.

EVguru
05-09-2013, 06:20 AM
There's an incubator/orbital stirrer here at work, some £12,000 worth of kit that is dead because of a fauly proprietry touch screen.

No problem, we'll just replace the embedded PC with an Arduinio or Raspberry Pi and write a little code.

Often this is an easier way to fix stuff.

ahidley
05-09-2013, 07:52 AM
Thanks to all who replied, thanks Benta for the info... #s 1-3 are processors and most likely the culprit. #4 is the writable chip for mileage. Its unfortunate because the car only has 62K miles on it.

So another question rises. For someone to "collect a car", they most likely would select a car that is rare, and/or has options not manuafctured in large numbers. This car would be an investment. Because the car and or options are rare. What would some one do in 25 years when the value increased astrononomically and some chip quit and is not replacable/available? Paul has nailed it above........

lwalker
05-09-2013, 08:03 AM
1987 was a very long time ago in electronic time (and in human time; I graduated college that year!) Every so often I hear about devices with EPROMS or onboard CPU memory made in that timeframe that are failing because the memories are "rotting" and dropping bits.

I wouldn't pay much for anything with a computer that was built around then: the odds of it being DOA or failing soon are pretty high.

Lyndon

fjk
05-09-2013, 10:51 AM
So another question rises. For someone to "collect a car", they most likely would select a car that is rare, and/or has options not manuafctured in large numbers. This car would be an investment. Because the car and or options are rare. What would some one do in 25 years when the value increased astrononomically and some chip quit and is not replacable/available? Paul has nailed it above........

A very good question, indeed.

With a Model-T, even if the fratastat isn't available from a manufacturer, one can always find one, measure it up, and make a reasonably good replacement of some kind.

I wonder if there is room here for some kind of government regulation to the effect that if a replacement electronic part/assembly/whatever necessary for the correct operation of the car is no longer available, then the car's manufacturer should release specs allowing others to reverse engineer and make replacements (ala EVguru's note about making a replacement for some piece of gear with an Arduino)?

MaxHeadRoom
05-09-2013, 11:01 AM
The leader for some time in Auto electronics has been Robert Bosch of Germany, the modern computer network Canbus developed by Bosch is on just about all modern auto's, a central CPU that communicates with modules throughout the car to cut down on wiring.
I believe they were the main developer of the injector as well.
Max.

ahidley
05-09-2013, 01:23 PM
LWALKER.. The milage chip specs say its only good for 10 years. but maybe that is 10 years of not being powered up? I duno..


1987 was a very long time ago in electronic time (and in human time; I graduated college that year!) Every so often I hear about devices with EPROMS or onboard CPU memory made in that timeframe that are failing because the memories are "rotting" and dropping bits.

I wouldn't pay much for anything with a computer that was built around then: the odds of it being DOA or failing soon are pretty high.

Lyndon

Stern
05-09-2013, 02:24 PM
You can try doing some digging, but a lot of the non-electronics industry (when using electronics in their equipment) opted for "custom chips" for thier applications, basically to prevent cloning/reverse eng. The chip may actually be a standard chip, but they have the manufacturer put a "house #" on them. Motorola did a lot of this, using standard 6800 series parts stamped with customers own numbers.
Unfortunately, even if a part is considered dead the manufacturer isnt allowed to release info on it (usually part of the contract obligation), and sometimes it takes a "part hacker" to discover what it really is. I know the Kids Jeep had some custom chips in the dash cluster, which were actually 6800 series parts that someone "cracked" and posted on a forum.

I would try contacting who ever made the car (or who owns it now) and see if they can send you on a trail for a replacement bit. Some places dont care and wont help, some will help out especially if the equipment is no longer being produced. Other option is to try to make a replacement unit, which isnt too hard as long as you know what its supposed to do and the "protocol" of the control signals.

Gary Paine
05-09-2013, 03:48 PM
This link should help. Specmo did most all the factory repairs and perhaps have some new old stock or even used parts available. Try contacting them: http://www.specmo.com/services/clusters.aspx

ahidley
05-10-2013, 11:14 AM
Gary, I called them and they said that they only repair GM and Delco. Mine is made by Yazaki even though its in a GM caddy!! They said that they have no parts nor do they know of someone who does or someone who repairs them. Thanks

co_farmer
05-13-2013, 12:26 PM
A very good question, indeed.

With a Model-T, even if the fratastat isn't available from a manufacturer, one can always find one, measure it up, and make a reasonably good replacement of some kind.

I wonder if there is room here for some kind of government regulation to the effect that if a replacement electronic part/assembly/whatever necessary for the correct operation of the car is no longer available, then the car's manufacturer should release specs allowing others to reverse engineer and make replacements (ala EVguru's note about making a replacement for some piece of gear with an Arduino)?

Actually, manufacturers are required to support their product for 7 years after discontinue. Customers sometimes have to force them to do it, however. Your car is way beyond the limit!

About your idea of reverse engineering old parts, you have no idea of how much that would cost, even if possible. My company used to place all the surface mount components for the old Monaco Coaches Aladdin accessory package. Monaco did all the rest of the work, including programming the boards. We built a large quantity of boards for them, when they discontinued the product. They never finished the process, and two years later went bankrupt. When they cleared out their rented facility, all the boards and components went into boxes and some went to the dumpsters.

Several companies wanted to supply boards for the repair off the Aladdin system, but they soon ran out of their supply and wanted us to build more. We explained our small part of the build and they would have to get someone else to complete the job. Never happened.

The real problem is the loss of knowledge when employees were let go. In spite of documentation, there was no one with knowledge of what was needed to complete the board build, programming and testing and no way to regenerate that knowledge or was willing to pay to regain the knowledge.

Paul

Paul Alciatore
05-13-2013, 02:14 PM
Y...<snip>...

Unfortunately, even if a part is considered dead the manufacturer isnt allowed to release info on it (usually part of the contract obligation), and sometimes it takes a "part hacker" to discover what it really is. I know the Kids Jeep had some custom chips in the dash cluster, which were actually 6800 series parts that someone "cracked" and posted on a forum.

...<snip>...

Seems to me that this is something that should/must change. Perhaps we should all write to our elected officials urging legislation that would terminate these contracts when the OEM no longer supports the items. This only makes sense. In fact, I think the OEM should be required to publish FULL details on the construction of the part when they no longer supply it. Yea, yea, I know, PROPRIETARY. But if they do nothing with that "proprietary" knowledge, then they should release it for the benefit of their customers. Patented items should be included once they no longer make AND SELL them.

outlawspeeder
05-13-2013, 02:39 PM
I am in the STL area and can swing by on Saturday. Price is 13 if it hasnít been taken?


Pick-n-Pull - St. Louis [More Information]
7557 Hall Street
St. Louis, MO 63147 US 314-383-2333
Make Model Year Row Date On Yard
Cadillac Cimarron 85 0024 04/02/2013


1359 N Walton Walker Blvd
Dallas, TX 75211 US 214-331-6391
Make Model Year Row Date On Yard
Cadillac Cimarron 84 0112 04/16/2013

3900 Woodville Highway
Tallahassee, FL 32305 US 850-878-4119
Make Model Year Row Date On Yard
Cadillac Cimarron 87 0002 04/30/2013


7777 US Highway 50 E
Carson City, NV 89701 US 775-841-1333
Make Model Year Row Date On Yard
Cadillac Cimarron 84 0125 01/14/2013

113 Beard Avenue
Modesto, CA 95354 US 209-579-2277
Make Model Year Row Date On Yard
Cadillac Cimarron 87 0061 03/08/2013

8640 Antelope North Road
Antelope, CA 95843 US 916-721-4040
Make Model Year Row Date On Yard
Cadillac Cimarron 87 0056 04/08/2013

3927 Clark Drive
Stockton, CA 95215 US 209-462-1927
Make Model Year Row Date On Yard
Cadillac Cimarron 88 0072 04/17/2013

4659 Air Base Parkway
Fairfield, CA 94533 US 707-425-1044
Make Model Year Row Date On Yard
Cadillac Cimarron 84 0060 04/01/2013

ahidley
05-13-2013, 03:47 PM
"Price is 13"??? is that thirteen dollars?? If so please pick it up.. Note: there are 2 versions on this car. Mine is a 1987 DIGITAL CLUSTER. There are NO needels, its all LEDs , about 100 of em.. I can send you a pic if that would help clairfy it....
THANKS!!

outlawspeeder
05-13-2013, 04:12 PM
The place is called pick and pull, good web site. I have to swing by there this weekend for my kid's car but when I am walking around, I'll see if they have a cluster still in the car. They get picked over very fast.

Please don't get you hopes up. I will look.

Also if you hit up your local junked car lot they have a part locator service.

macona
05-13-2013, 06:52 PM
What I would do... Replace all electrolytic capacitors on the boards. These caps are only good for 10-20 years in the best of conditions. Put them in the hot, hot dash of a car and all bets are off. Failing caps in instrument clusters is a common issue in many cars. If that does not work you might have a bad solder joint, especially on the connectors. You can go through and reflow each one with some flux and solder. I had to do this on my Neon's cluster.

ahidley
05-13-2013, 08:21 PM
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z80/ahidley/1987dashFRONT_zps85da87b3.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/user/ahidley/media/1987dashFRONT_zps85da87b3.jpg.html)

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z80/ahidley/1987dashFRONT_zps85da87b3.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z80/ahidley/1987dashINcar_zpsf4882a08.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/user/ahidley/media/1987dashINcar_zpsf4882a08.jpg.html)

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z80/ahidley/1987dashINcar_zpsf4882a08.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z80/ahidley/1987dashREAR_zps588f9bcb.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/user/ahidley/media/1987dashREAR_zps588f9bcb.jpg.html)


http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z80/ahidley/1987dashREAR_zps588f9bcb.jpg

Never mind the dates on the pics, I took them tonight

ahidley
05-13-2013, 08:25 PM
Macona, I did replace all the caps. No change. I went over all the solder joints also. No change.

outlawspeeder
05-20-2013, 04:12 PM
The car at the my local pick and pull was guted. The wires going to it were cut.

Sorry

914Wilhelm
05-20-2013, 05:10 PM
I suspect you did the obvious and cleaned the corrosion off the pins and sockets? Chips should last a fair time barring some electronics spike. Connections not so much..........

Evan
05-20-2013, 05:28 PM
You may be looking at an unsolvable problem. The eproms from that time period only have a 10 to 15 year retention spec, powered or unpowered. Once even just one bit in a bad part of the code or data fails the system may die, permanently. The only fix is to have the required code and to reprogram the eprom. It also means that any junkyard replacements will have the same problem.

This doesn't just apply to automobiles. A local jeweler had me in several times to repair his early 1980's CNC engraving machine. It had several eproms in it and I warned him that at some point it would croak and that would be the end of it. Sure enough, it finally did crash for the last time and no replacements could be found. The company simply told him it was time to buy a new machine for only $30K.

Nice attitude. All it would take to fix it is a sheet of paper with the code on it and somebody with an eprom programmer (me, for instance). It doesn't take long to type in 2K of code.

ahidley
05-21-2013, 07:34 AM
Thanks outlawspeeder...
Evan I believe that you are corect.