Which mill to buy: G3102, G0728, or KBC 7x31, or ?

[Tor]

Aloha,

I'm looking to get a mill (I've used Bridgeports in the past, though that's not in my budget right now). Come up with three that seem like worthy candidates, and would like to get some input from folk who have spent time working with machines of this class. I work mostly in wood, and since it's going in my wood shop I'm probably going to try to keep the work done on it mostly clean - but that doesn't mean I manage that

A real Bridgeport is something I would like, and could find space for, but is highly unlikely to be available round about these parts - and may well not be in my budget even if it were available. Shipping a used machine from elsewhere is not something I want to do on an island 2500 miles from the nearest continent.

The three machines I am currently looking at are the Grizzly G3102, which seems to be fairly well liked, and has been around for a while. Parts are quite limited in availability from Grizzly, though. I also notice that although the table has 6" of Y travel, the spindle centre is only 5 1/2" from the column. Seems a little backwards from what I recall of milling. I got a shipping quote of $700 from Grizzly on this machine.

Second machine is the Grizzly G0728. A little lighter, which probably means less rigid and more vibration, though I would guess that working mostly wood I would seldom to never run into this as an issue (thoughts?). Has a spindle 6 1/2" from column with the same 6" cross travel of the 3102. Z on both of these machines is the same.

Third machine is the KBC machinery 7x31, which is rather nice in having a larger work envelope and half again as much Z, but I don't know if the company has a good reputation on service - which Grizzly seems to have - an important point in the case of something going wrong, shipping being what it is out here.

Thanks,

Tor

[danlb]

I have one similar to the G3102. It's 30+ years old. The stand is integral.

It works well. Mine is not at all flimsy. I use it for metal work... well occasionally a little wood work too. I can hog large amounts of metal quickly. I can leave a nice finish too.

I do OK with the 13 inches of Z. Some people have put a riser on it with no problems.

The work envelope is a little limited by the fact that there is no ram. 6 inches of Y is about all you get, and you may need to plan in advance. More than once I've had to reposition the work so the area I need to work on will fall in the tool path.

I've added a 3 axis DRO. My motor bearings were going so I also upgraded the 1.5 hp motor to a 2 HP 3 phase with VFD.

All in all, it's quite capable within it's work envelope.

Dan

[Tor]

Thanks. I've seen some overall good reports on the 3102. Any sense on the 3102/0728, with the difference in spindle to column.

One use case in particular I'm looking for is to put 45 degree bevels on the smallest sides of flat stock so that the two largest faces are of different length (box sides) on pieces up to about 16" long, and do it using a climb cut all the way around the entire piece to preven chip out (run X up one side climb cutting, shift Y, and run back climb cutting the other side meeting in the middle sort of pattern). Perhaps not the most time efficient method, but most any other method is likely to lose bits of material I need on some woods.

Tor

[Bill Pace]

I think you would find that work envelope on the Grizzs becoming a problem pretty quickly. I had a WT 6x26 and while the mill had a lot of nice features, the work envelope just kept cropping up as a pain and I got rid of it. Picture having a vise on the table with your work piece and then having a tool in it holder - drill chuck, collet, etc - the spindle and suddenly you dont have any room.

The KBC addresses this to some degree and would definitely be better in that respect than the Grizz.

Did you happen to run across the mills from Matt at Precision Matthews? especially this model 932- its specs look good and the price is the range of the ones you show. And Matt has a very good reputation of working with a customer...

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-932M.html

[Tor]

Thanks Bill. I've been wondering about the small size of the Grizzlys. Any sense on the knee/head Z movement? I'd actually been thinking of an X3 (G0463 version) until I sold a piece and have a little more freedom in what I buy. I did see the Precision Matthews machines, but not looked very carefully because they have a moving head rather than a knee. From my reading and recollection it seems the knee is a substantial step up from a machine with a moving head like the PM-932 you mention. Is the machine of sufficient quality and/or is the additional work area really worth the loss of the knee?

As for a riser, I had considered that as an option. My thought was a riser that put the bottom of the spindle face 1/2" to 1 1/2" (maybe even 1/2" above with quill extended) or so above the bottom of the vise with the knee all the way up and the quill retracted might be easily left on the machine all the time. Adding height to the machine is of no consequence other than my building it's stand lower to compensate. Being 6'6" I had already thought to build a stand out of 4x[6-12]s on edge to raise the machine up.

Thanks for the help.

Tor

[tmarks11]

The three machines I am currently looking at are the Grizzly G3102, which seems to be fairly well liked, and has been around for a while.

Grizzly's price for this mill has risen considerably in the past 6 years. If you are shopping for a 6x26, then I would strongly recommend you consider Wttool's version, which has maintained a constant price in the same period.

WTTOOL: $1610 (with the October 15% discount code SAV15OCT13 applied): http://www.wttool.com/index/page/pro...illing+Machine

As a minimum, it needs a riser block to address the inadequate z clearance. WTTOOL sells a 4" ($210) and 6" version ($273) (prior to the 15% discount above):

http://www.wttool.com/index/page/category/category_id/16699/

With that being said, I think the 6x26 work envelope is still a bit dinky, and would hold out for a 7x31 (KBC) or 8x30 (Grizzly) mill as a minimum.

[Tor]

I'll definitely keep the WTTool version in mind. Thanks for the heads up on price. I'm inclined to think a second mill is not entirely out of line for the (perhaps semi-distant) future, since I can see having one mill available for metalwork and another that I try to keep clean for wood. With that on the horizon I suspect that getting the smaller mill with a riser may be a better option with the additional tooling it would allow me to purchase.

Anyone have advice on what size riser would be best on one of these mills if I go the small mill route? Consider only Z clearance, since /any/ riser will probably leave the table low enough to want/need to raise the machine off the floor for my hight.

[JoeFin]

The Best Advice is not to buy a Low Quality Asian Machine - you will only be disappointed

Given Grizzly is considered a better quality Hobby Machine I expected a little better quality from them. Bottom line is they don't use "Grey Iron" and rely on a Hodge-Podge mixture of forged scrap iron with little or no quality control. The result is a soft low quality iron that wears faster and experiences "settling" years out of the mold.

Here is the saddle off a Grizzly on my surface grinder being dusted off in prep.



Notice the opposing High Spots. At first I thought this was settling until further examination with a height gage and indicator across the entire saddle. The mill used rough the castings was greater than .008" out of trammel to the foot. Just smacks of the "You Stupid American" work ethic

Also notice the High Spot directly over the saddle lock. That was a plastic handle saddle lock that distorted that soft metal.

I seriously have my doubts any of this would change your mind as I attribute most of these "Only a Low Quality Asian Machine can satisfy my needs" post to the booming back-links industry in parts of Asia, where "IT Sweat Shops" pay $.50 to $1.00 per gratuitous link made to the sponsor's website in hopes of increasing his Google Search Page Rankings.

But that's just me

Lots of guys have these machines and are absolutely satisfied with them. And honestly given the prospects of no milling machine vs: Low Quality Asian, the Grizzly wins hands down

[Video Man]

Grizzly sells the G0730 (0731 with power feed) which looks very similar to the KBC mill you show. I have the previous version of the 0731, bought about 15 years ago as Grizzly G1008. They called it an A1SA mill, what that means I don't know.

Mine was made in Taiwan and came standard with a coolant pump and tank. The catalog says this verision is Taiwan also. Say what you will about Asian tools, my mill has been very satisfactory and I am completely happy with it. The greater z-axis over the tabletop versions is really good to have, as is the power feed.

[Tor]

Joe: Yes, I know asian is likely to be at least somewhat disappointing - but from my reading a better bet than buying a pig in a poke on ebay with a shipping bill alone that likely comes to $1500+. At least with an asian machine I have something of a floor on how bad it can be - which I don't with used american iron. It wouldn't surprise me if less than one quality used machine trades hands with even one end in a place I can physically drive to per year to explain why I have mostly dismissed a used machine.

TMarks: Well, a bit disappointing on WTTool. The reply I got on a shipping inquiry: "I am sorry, we can not ship this outside the continental USA". I am in the US, but in that one state surrounded by a monster moat - and on one of the smaller islands thereof to boot, so this is something I've seen before, though I would have thought freight was freight, just more expensive.

Thanks for the replies so far,

Tor

[Firecracker]

I'm the owner of a version of the Griz. G3102 as sold in the UK. Thoughts on this machine - the Z and Y axies are limited, I've run out of space several times. Mine had the rubber sheet between the saddle and column, this disappeared (was torn to shreds) by a clamp after a year. The pot metal hinges that hold the belt cover (which is solid cast iron, why in pity's sake) disintegrated. The electrical box detached itself from the knee due to the awful plastic used.

On the other hand, I recently stripped the table (after 4 years constant hobby use) to sort an issue with the power feed to discover minimal wear, none of the sand-ridden castings we expect to find and when reassembled had no measurable wear in the slides, the gibs showed even contact along their entire length and a minor adjustment of the lead screw nut (using the intended Allen screws) resulted in 3 thou backlash. So a few minor cosmetic issues, but where it matters, the machine is fine.

Owain

[JulianC]

I have a small lathe in my garage from KBC Machinery for probably 6 years now and have never had an issue with it other than replacing a belt, which they had in stock and price was right. I also by tooling from them and find them to be very easy to deal with, have most items in stock, do not gouge for shipping, have quality tools, technical support and never an issue if I order something wrong and need to return it. These are the reasons that they are my number one choice for my tooling needs. Can't say much about shipping to what I would think would be Hawaii, but I am sure they would work to find the least expensive way to ship it.

[dp]

Aloha kakou, pehea `oe? It looks like all the machines are similar in capacity and capability. Is there any particular feature you require for working wood?

Hawai`i no ka `oi!

[Tilaran]

Te secrecy of the island I dig. If you're close to Panama take a flight and head to the canal zone. Lotsa stuff available.

[Tor]

Julian and dp nailed the location quite well enough for the information I gave. I'm on one of the smaller islands to boot.

As for features, the two operations I'm most interested in right now are 360 degree climb milling the ends of box sides at arbitrary (or perhaps more accurately, obscure) compound angles in woods that are highly prone to chipout in any conventional cutting/milling operation. Second is more of a substantial time saving issue than something I cannot do without a mill, and that is cutting dadoes of arbitrary width a little narrower than 1/8" and about 1/8" to 3/16" typical depth. The latter I plan to do using two passes of a 1/16" slitting saw of modest diameter, while the former I plan to purchase this vise to achieve. Of course, there are probably more things I want to do than I can remember to post here, but I have other tools, and past familiarity with mills to guide me.

At this point I'm leaning back towards getting Grizzly's X3 that I'd earlier planned to get for two reasons. First, shipping is quite inexpensive compared to the larger machines (just over $300 according to my now expired quote) and second is that I can easily imagine having two mills being a very good thing, and the less expensive mill will make that a possibility sooner. Tooling, being R8 makes that a fairly painless decision.

Tor