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View Full Version : OT - Trip to New Zealand Advice needed



Bruce Griffing
10-27-2013, 09:57 PM
My wife and I are planning a trip to NZ in February. We will get off a plane in Queenstown and have two weeks to make our way back to Auckland for the trip home. What sights should we not miss? I would appreciate any advice.

The Artful Bodger
10-27-2013, 10:30 PM
Queenstown to Auckland, driving, would mean quite a bit of your two weeks behind the wheel but perhaps you would like to spend your time in just a couple of areas?

Q'town has a wide choice of activities aimed at the younger, active, travellers but there is plenty there for older folks too. I suggest (whatever the age) at least a lake steamer visit to the sheep station for a glimpse of NZ sheep farming life and an evening meal in an idyllic environment before the moonlight cruise back to Q'town.

A visit to Milford Sound from Q'town is a must. Its about 5 hours to drive but only a short distance by plane, a nice way to do this is fly one way and bus the other. It is a day trip and you can include a cruise on the fjord in that. It is well worth the visit on a fine sunny day but even more so if it is raining as heavy rain at Milford Sound is something everyone should experience at least once.

If you are into star gazing there is a famous observatory at Mt John, Tekapo. More or less on the road from Q'town to Christchurch.

A lot of the small towns in NZ have interesting museums and displays of interest to home shop machinists but very few have the patronage to be open every day of the week so if you find one thats a bonus. 50 miles south of Christchurch is Ashburton which has a small aviation museum open 7 days, if you let me know which day you might be passing I would strive to be there to show you around!

Christchurch is an interesting city if you want to see the aftermath of an earthquake which destroyed much of the city and what was left teetering is slowly being reduced to rubble.

It is a five hour drive from Christchurch to Picton from where the ferry takes the cars, and trains, to the North Island. Vineyards, whale and other wildlife watching and other sights along the way make this a full day at least especially if you want to take in the first class aviation museum and displays at Omaka which is near Blenheim.

I think that would be at least half of your two weeks taken care of....

KJ1I
10-27-2013, 11:24 PM
My son and his wife just returned from a 4 week trip to New Zealand. The rented a "caravan" and just went where ever it seemed interesting. They still haven't stopped talking about Milford Sound. They were so impressed and happy they spent 4 days in the area, "just soaking it all in". Their next favorite spot was a hike up an active volcano -- I forget the name. They also said they avoided everything associated with LOTR and the Hobbit. Over hyped and over priced.

lakeside53
10-27-2013, 11:27 PM
I'll be back in Chch (home) and surrounds for a month late November. My sights will be different - mostly within 200 miles, and like many places, most only known to locals :)

One thing you should do is take a flight up onto to the Franz Joseph glacier - you can land on top with a ski equipped plane..

aostling
10-28-2013, 01:07 AM
Get out of Queenstown as fast as you can. It is crawling with tourists from China. If you are driving, forget about Milford. Two weeks will not allow you the time that trip will require.

Head for Invercargill. Then drive the Catlins route to Dunedin. This is very scenic, with views of the Southern Ocean and many secluded bays and stands of native bush.

Dunedin is a treasure, the southernmost English-speaking city in the world. There are two great Japanese restaurants there, and a fine tour of a Victorian mansion built by a man who made his fortune selling pianos to those who struck it rich in the Otago gold rush of the 1860s.

You will get to Christchurch, but there is not much reason to stay there. Head to the West Coast over Arthur's Pass and and see Reefton. This was the first town in the Southern Hemisphere to get electric lighting, six years after Thomas Edison brought electricity to New York. The Black Point Museum in Reefton has machinery from the era of mining, which continues with a new open-pit gold mine behind the hills.

From Reefton go to Wellington via Nelson, and the Picton ferry. Wellington is even hillier than San Francisco, and the museum there is the best in the country.

Head north to Taupo and visit Wairakei to see the huge geothermal power facility there. Your wife might appreciate the Terraces spa which has recently opened there, the best mud baths and hot spring soak in the world http://www.wairakeiterraces.co.nz/. So you won't need to go to Rotorua, which like Queenstown is overrun with tourists.

Now your time is getting short. You might not have time to see the Coromandel Peninsula. You could go to Raglan, but I guess by this stage you will have acquired enough advice from people you will have encountered on the road.

North of Auckland is a different world, which you can save for your next trip. When you finally do get up there be sure to see the Tane Mahuta tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tane_Mahuta. Send me a postcard, if you like it.

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2013, 01:32 AM
That is good advice from Allan but if I may expand on it I would say forget about Auckland and instead leave from Christchurch after spending your two weeks touring the Mainland.

BTW, even one day, or half an hour even, at Milford Sound is better than never having been there at all!

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5452/8800018877_c483b51b6b.jpg
...... Milford Sound Flight Service station c. 1969. (Super handsome young chap on duty that day!):cool:

Yow Ling
10-28-2013, 01:36 AM
Actually the statistics for queenstown show there are 4 american for every chinese visitor and 5 australians for every american.
There is alot to see in christchurch but it isnt your normal tourist destination, well worth a look.

They speak english in Invercargill a city 150 miles south of dunedin.

aostling
10-28-2013, 01:38 AM
What sights should we not miss? I would appreciate any advice.

One more thing. As a physicist you might enjoy a pilgrimage to Havelock, on the Marlborough Sounds. The school where Ernest Rutherford learned to read is still in existence there. This is where modern physics began.

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2013, 01:41 AM
Actually the statistics for queenstown show there are 4 american for every chinese visitor and 5 australians for every american.


Errr..... is that right? Better turn left when you come out the gates of Frankton (Queenstown) Airport and dont stop until you see piles of swedes for sale at the roadside.

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2013, 01:50 AM
Talking about sites of world shaking historical interest one could consider Shag Valley Station at 2353 Dunback-Morrisons Road (State Highway 87), Morrisons, OTAGO. The station is notable for Frank and Brenda Bell, who made the first radio contact between New Zealand and London in October 1924. Their equipment is retained in a small museum on the station.

Their feat was at that time still considered by many as impossible as they used "useless" short waves whereas the "official" long distance radio systems of the time operated of long waves. At least as significant as the battle between proponents of DC v AC.

Mike Burch
10-28-2013, 01:53 AM
With the greatest respect to my friend John in Ashburton, if this is your once-in-a-lifetime visit to NZ, don't spend it all in the South Island. But then, as a resident of the Far North, I would say that, wouldn't I?
The natural scenery of the South Island is simply stunning, but the North has its beauties too. The Tongariro National Park just south of Taupo is amazing (stay a night at The Chateau on Mt Ruapehu). The Waitomo Caves are very popular, Auckland is just a horrible big city, and the Far North reveals itself gradually to those who really look. The Coromandel Pensinsula is also worth a trip. Rotorua has its attractions, but being a very active geo-thermal region, it stinks of H2S.
The real problem you pose is that two weeks is far too short a time to experience all that this amazing little place at the wrong end of the world has to offer.

lakeside53
10-28-2013, 02:03 AM
Actually the statistics for queenstown show there are 4 american for every chinese visitor and 5 australians for every american.




Hey.. If we can divert the Chinese that means no Americans or Australians! Perfect... all back to how it was 30 years ago :)

I agree about Auckland... Just SFO on the other side of the world. Shut your eyes when entering from the south, and in about 1/2 a day of traffic you'll be through it and northwards towards the Bay of Islands etc.

Two weeks to see NZ? LOL.... sure. I'm not one for driving to see "scenery". Ok, if you have to do it then once, but then come back and send a few weeks in one spot to explore the people and life. Alternatively... pace yourself, follow no real plan and hangout wherever you are having fun. Don't sweat the LONG list of possibilities and final destination until a day before you have to leave, then ditch the car and catch a plane to Auckland.

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2013, 02:10 AM
OK, getting serious now, I have to repeat my opening statement that you might consider concentrating on just one or two locations as two weeks spent travelling between Queenstown and Auckland by road (or rail) would leave too little time for the interesting stuff. Incidently, rail options are very limited.

I am confident that if you were to spend your entire two weeks with, say, a few days at a number of places that would be a more satisfying reward for the time, expense and discomfort you had to endure to get here.

Therefore, I think we should be recommending a few locations for you to choose as your temporary bases. My suggestions for such bases are, Queenstown (alternative Te Anau), Dunedin, Westport, Wellington, Taupo (alternative Rotorua), Whangarei, Napier (alternative Hastings).

lakeside53
10-28-2013, 02:18 AM
If you do come up the east coast of the South Island or cross over to Christchurch, stop in Akaroa and explore the zillions of untouched bays on the Peninsula. If the wind is blowing from the south - check out Birdlings Flat - that's one impressive place in storm, but now I'm giving away local secrets!

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2013, 02:27 AM
We went to Akaroa via the summit road last week, great drive although we could not get into St Lukes' church which has the gate closed right now.

aostling
10-28-2013, 04:22 AM
But then, as a resident of the Far North, I would say that, wouldn't I?


It helps to know some rudimentary Maori on the North Island. If you can ask directions to this place you will impress the natives.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/4046123522_ffc5820691_b_zpsbcc60c7d.jpg (http://s168.photobucket.com/user/aostling/media/4046123522_ffc5820691_b_zpsbcc60c7d.jpg.html)

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2013, 04:46 AM
Yes, North Island but not the Far North. If I am not mistaken it is not so far from Pongaroa where a Nobel Prize winner was born http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Wilkins

SGW
10-28-2013, 04:52 AM
I defer to the natives, except to agree that New Zealand is an incredible place to visit. The scenery on the south island is staggeringly beautiful. The north island is very different, also beautiful. At the time I was there (1986) I think the population was about 1,000,000 people and 3,000,000 sheep, or so I was told.

bob ward
10-28-2013, 07:19 AM
My wife and I are planning a trip to NZ in February. We will get off a plane in Queenstown and have two weeks to make our way back to Auckland for the trip home. What sights should we not miss? I would appreciate any advice.

I'm not a Kiwi but I've visited NZ many times. To me your schedule is overly ambitious, spend your 2 weeks in South Island, fly home from Christchurch. Go back and look at North Island in a year or two, but expect to be disappointed as you will have already seen the best of NZ. ;)
Maybe take the ferry over to Wellington while you are the top end of South Island, spend 2 or 3 days there, ride the funicular. Southward's car museum is brilliant.

Queenstown is a tourist trap, but a cruise on Lake Wakatipu is very pleasant, power boating on the Shotover is exhilarating, the views from the SkyTower are marvellous. A trip on the Kingston Flyer if its running.

Invercargill is 2 hours from Queenstown, it has one of the world's best truck collections, not to mention the bike collection in Hayes Hardware and the Burt Munro memorabilia. Excellent rose gardens in Queen's Park.

Dunedin is 2 hours from Invercargill, they have looked after their history well, visit Lanark castle and Olveston house, the albatross rookery, take the train up Taieri Gorge.

Read everyone else's suggestions.

mattthemuppet
10-28-2013, 11:39 AM
Milford sound was the only place I regret not visiting in NZ when I lived there as it's supposed to be simply stunning. Personally, although I thought that the scenery in the South Island was beautiful, I think it's well worth spending some time on the North Island too as it's far more varied (and dare I say it, interesting). We never got to go north of Auckland, but Taupo, Craters of the Moon, that place with the volcanoes, Bay of Plenty and the east cape were all fantastic and easily doable in a week, although that'll entail a lot of driving. Then again, I loved driving along the west coast of the South Island too - Hanmer Springs is a lovely place to stay and a stunning drive too. Don't forget that driving times in NZ are 2-3x that for the same distance in the US - "motorways" are often not more than 1 lane each way and they'll go every single town, hamlet and sheep shack on the way :)

I really don't think you can go wrong wherever you go, it's an all round stunning place with friendly people. Just don't get sucked into any of the Maori cultural crap, unless you really luck out and get invited to a lodge.

A.K. Boomer
10-28-2013, 12:21 PM
Talking about sites of world shaking historical interest .


Isn't that a poor choice of words in your neck-O-the woods?

you might want to bring a Kevlar umbrella wherever you go...:p

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2013, 02:23 PM
Isn't that a poor choice of words in your neck-O-the woods?




You need to get out and about a bit more sonny.

A.K. Boomer
10-28-2013, 02:34 PM
Sorry - was just going by what my friends who live in C.CH said - oh and a couple of news reports :p

kevlar umbrella was not being serious hope you know..

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2013, 02:43 PM
Don't forget that driving times in NZ are 2-3x that for the same distance in the US - "motorways" are often not more than 1 lane each way and they'll go every single town, hamlet and sheep shack on the way :)


"Motorway" has a specific meaning in NZ meaning a road with no parking, no stopping (except in emergency), no opposing traffic, joining via a merge lane (i.e. 'onramp') and probably something else I have forgotten. There are very few motorways except near the main cities and some are so short I am sure the local authorities built them as some sort of status symbol.

We drive on the left and give way ('yield') to the right, traffic lights and roundabouts are the principal traffic handling systems in most towns. Four way stop signs are a novelty (there is one on Cuba St in Wellington but I dont know any others). State Highway One, from one end of the country to the other, is mostly just one lane each way with opposing traffic flows safely segregated by one thin white line. Overtaking on such roads is permitted except where marked otherwise (yellow lines) and at "passing lanes" where the road widens and slower traffic is expected to move to the left. Frankly, overtaking is rarely worth the effort as most of the traffic is close to the 100kmph speed limit, speeding fines are painful and a head on collision can ruin one's entire day. BTW, we no longer have the "left turning traffic gives ways to right turning traffic" rule.

Roundabouts work well provided drivers join them as a merge not as a stop and go. I know of two NZ roundabouts with rail tracks through them, Blenheim and Greymouth(?).

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2013, 02:48 PM
Sorry - was just going by what my friends who live in CH said - oh and a couple of news reports :p

kevlar umbrella was not being serious hope you know..

I'm cool.

quasi
10-28-2013, 05:37 PM
ask a Kiwi where you can help a sheep through a fence.

aostling
10-28-2013, 06:33 PM
BTW, we no longer have the "left turning traffic gives ways to right turning traffic" rule.


That rule was hard for me to adapt to when I visited in 1994, and I got honked at. I heard it started in Australia but that they were giving it up at about the time it was adopted in New Zealand.

bob ward
10-28-2013, 07:06 PM
BTW, we no longer have the "left turning traffic gives ways to right turning traffic" rule.

aostling, we never had that particular traffic rule in Australia, and I could never figure out the the reasoning or 'logic' behind it. Whatever, I would always get tooted at for the first couple of days whenever I was driving in NZ.

EDIT I should have said we never had that rule in Queensland or NSW.

crusty
10-28-2013, 09:56 PM
As much as Bodger won't like it, Auckland has made into the top 10 cities in the world to visit according to lonely planet.
Not just a place to fly in and out of.

http://nz.totaltravel.yahoo.com/news-opinions/news/a/-/19584843/auckland-makes-lonely-planet-top-10/

Yow Ling
10-28-2013, 10:07 PM
As much as Bodger won't like it, Auckland has made into the top 10 cities in the world to visit according to lonely planet.
Not just a place to fly in and out of.

http://nz.totaltravel.yahoo.com/news-opinions/news/a/-/19584843/auckland-makes-lonely-planet-top-10/

Yes it is true that Auckland made no 10 on the list, last year Christchurch made no 6, not bad for a town with a CBD resembling Bosnia in the 90's
All the engineering and rebuilding going on is pretty fascinating, I see something new every day even if it just some new cranes or a new hole in the ground, can still go watch a demolition on any day still a few hundred to go in town and a few thousand maybe 10,000 in the suburbs.

The Artful Bodger
10-29-2013, 12:22 AM
As much as Bodger won't like it....

I dont mind at all if Orkland made the Lonely Planet list. In fact I dont mind Orkland at all having lived at Point Chev. for some years. But the thing about Orkland as a place for visitors is that its attractions are not uniquely NZ, lots of things to see and do but almost all of them are available in many cities of the world.

Mike Burch
10-29-2013, 02:25 AM
NZ's human population is now around 4.5 million, about a third of them in Auckland. Not sure about the sheep, but the days when there were 70 million of them are long gone.
The world's longest place-name (see a previous post) means something like "The place where Tamatea, the man with the big knees who climbed up and ate mountains, sat and played his nose flute to his loved one."
TAB is right. Auckland's attractions are what you would expect from a cosmopolitan city in a developed country (and the biggest Polynesian city in the world). Sure, it's got lots of attractions, but few that you wouldn't find back home in the USA.
If you get as far north as Kerikeri you'll find a working steam-powered sawmill just up the road from my house.

Nicholas
10-29-2013, 12:06 PM
Enjoy your holiday but try to avoid the cannibals:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2396495/

aostling
10-29-2013, 12:14 PM
Enjoy your holiday but try to avoid the cannibals:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2396495/

I see that Fresh Meat was filmed in Wellington. I would like to see it, but can't find it on DVD. Did you see it in New Zealand?

Nicholas
10-29-2013, 01:22 PM
I see that Fresh Meat was filmed in Wellington. I would like to see it, but can't find it on DVD. Did you see it in New Zealand?

I couldn't find it on dvd either. had to watch it here.

probably need adblocker

try:http://nosvideo.com/?v=h35m3h99v6un
after click on continue to video, click on screen, then play button may have to let buffer

The Artful Bodger
10-29-2013, 02:41 PM
Dont worry about a few cannibals.....
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5koDB3t_Qzg/RmJjLYVyfyI/AAAAAAAAAJc/8LIeQzyKhlQ/s1600/black_sheep_ver2.jpg

aostling
10-29-2013, 03:03 PM
Another fine Wellington movie I have not seen. I'll bet Patricia Bartlett is not amused.

crusty
10-29-2013, 06:04 PM
then of course there's this one - Peter Jackson's Braindead

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103873/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

'A young man's mother is bitten by a Sumatran rat-monkey. She gets sick and dies, at which time she comes back to life, killing and eating dogs, nurses, friends, and neighbors.'

jim davies
10-30-2013, 11:53 PM
Just to tweek the thread a little bit, now that it has tapered off...suppose two on a fixed income were to arrive in NZ for a month or two, say early 2014, interested in looking around a bit, especially in the smaller towns and rural areas. Personally, I would like to look in at a few tech colleges to see how it's done in NZ. Other interests are history, cars, shooting sports, machining and goofing off in general. Need to work in some wifely stuff too, of course. Is a rental RV the way to go? Bus/car and daily or weekly room? What is a realistic budget for 2 months, not counting airfare........?

The Artful Bodger
10-31-2013, 12:28 AM
Hi Jim, when my wife and I travel in NZ we drive and stay at motels, which in NZ usually include facilities for modest meal preparation and cost from NZ$100 up. Rental RVs are popular with visitors and may be cheaper than rental car plus motel accommodation.

Backpacker accommodation is cheap and widely available but you might have to share facilities with people enjoying a stage of life many of us can barely recall! I have been reliably informed however that oldies with the right mindset really enjoy their backpacker experience. There is a network of cheap bus and mini-van services that cater to the backpacker tourists. All backpacker facilities are more easily accessible to those who have mastered modern electronic means of communication and social interaction.

Technical colleges in NZ are likely to be teaching in the field (pun excused) of agricultural expertise whereas teaching machining and manufacturing subjects is done in the polytechnics and engineering departments of the universities to be found in the four or so principal cities, i.e. Auckland, Palmerston North, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin.

Maybe someone can add more to address your other questions..

John

Mike Burch
10-31-2013, 04:51 AM
Jim, a rental RV will probably be cheaper than rental car and motels, but you can expect to pay around $30 a night to park in a commercial campground in a town. Don't go for the cheap vans without certified self-containment, or you'll find your overnight parking options limited to those places with toilets etc. On the other hand, freedom camping is permitted in many places, and there are many cheap but not quite free options. We have our own self-contained campervan, and would normally expect to pay for our parking every third or so night on a big trip.
If you do decide to go the RV way I would strongly advise that you join the NZ Motor Caravan Association (www.nzmca.org.nz). Their Travel Guide is invaluable for finding camping places, laundrettes, dump stations and so on, and membership can sometimes get you a discount here and there. They also own a number of properties where members (only) can overnight, usually for no more than five bucks, often for nothing.

The Artful Bodger
10-31-2013, 05:25 AM
Jim, there is another option and that is cabin accommodation at commercial campgrounds, usually cheaper than motels, much cheaper if you choose the ones where you supply your own bed linen. Much more likely to have to share bathroom facilities but has the distinct advantage that you are more likely to 'mix with the locals' there than at a motel.

Of course there are also hotels, two kinds, quite expensive high rise modern buildings, 3,4,5 stars in the major cities or small rooms, very cheap, very basic facilities in 'pubs' in cities and even the smallest towns. Small town and country pubs make their money selling beer and operating a bar or two with the accommodation lingering on from an earlier age.

Tilaran
10-31-2013, 07:20 AM
Here's some advice. Get a travelers insurance policy to cover medical abroad and make sure it has emergency transport back home covered. I know a guy that came here(Costa Rica) had a bad ATC accident. CR took care of the medical stuff free but to get back home would require medical transport. $45,000 ! It all worked out. He fell in lust with a nurse and stayed here.

aostling
10-31-2013, 08:50 AM
When I lived in Wellington (1971-78) I was a poor public servant, so on my travels I stayed in youth hostels. These cost almost nothing. I could take a two week holiday on my Honda XL-250, with all my gear stashed in a Mountain Mule pack lashed to a rack on the back.

In 1994-95 I embarked on a ten-month around-the-world backpacking trip. I was in New Zealand for almost four months. I bought a 1981 Datsun 310 Sunny for $NZ 875 -- this was advertised on the bulletin board of the first backpackers I stayed at in Auckland. I replaced the bald front tires when I got to Tauranga, with used tires from a tyre shop. I sold the car a few days short of my departure to Australia for almost what I paid for it.

On this trip I stayed mostly in backpackers. I was always able to get a private room. This was a big step up from the YHA accommodation of prior years, and backpackers had exploded. They were everywhere.

In 2010 I visited for four weeks, from mid-September to mid-October. I arrived in Christchurch on a flight from Melbourne (where I visited my cousin Janet for a few days). I'd broken the trip from Phoenix to Australia with an overnight stop in Fiji. This is a must, as otherwise you will go crazy.

I picked up my rental car in the Christchurch airport. As I was navigating to my reserved B&B, getting used to the sudden necessity of driving on the left side of the road again, a couple of Maoris honked at me as I was looking for the turn to Aorangi Street. "Hey, you need to get eyeballs, mate!" one of them yelled. I probably had done something wrong. When I related this story to my B&B host he said I should have retorted "Why would I want eyeballs when all I have to look at is you!"

B&Bs are the way to go. They too are everywhere, even where there are no motels. You can find them here: http://www.bnb.co.nz/. They are typically cheaper than motels, especially in the towns and countryside, and less impersonal. The B&B hosts will often befriend you.

It doesn't pay to take a rental car between the two main islands. I dropped my rental off at Picton, and rented the same model for my North Island travels after I debarked at Wellington. Now I am due for my next visit, probably some time in 2014.

jim davies
11-03-2013, 01:11 AM
Thanks for all the information, guys. Now I have some basis to start planning with. The wife has been to NZ already,and loved it but it's just been a long time list item with me. Actually, I guess I inherited the desire from my dad. He never made it.

The Artful Bodger
11-03-2013, 01:17 AM
Here's some advice. Get a travelers insurance policy to cover medical abroad and make sure it has emergency transport back home covered. I know a guy that came here(Costa Rica) had a bad ATC accident. CR took care of the medical stuff free but to get back home would require medical transport. $45,000 ! It all worked out. He fell in lust with a nurse and stayed here.

Good advice, but read this page too..http://www.acc.co.nz/making-a-claim/am-i-covered/

wbleeker
11-03-2013, 01:28 AM
I havent read Artfuls link, but on my three or four trips there I have always been confronted with the hard sell on reducing the excess on the hire car by paying even more money! We make sure our travel insurance covers this and only then have to hire the vehicle not buy it!
Will

The Artful Bodger
11-03-2013, 01:38 AM
I havent read Artfuls link, but on my three or four trips there I have always been confronted with the hard sell on reducing the excess on the hire car by paying even more money! We make sure our travel insurance covers this and only then have to hire the vehicle not buy it!
Will

NZ ACC is not about damage to property! It is about personal accident insurance and protection against being sued for personal damages by another.