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hwingo
10-29-2013, 11:58 AM
Good Morning Gentlemen,

I need advise regarding the purchase of a new and larger milling vise. The vise pictured below had worked well enough until I was informed about using a leather mallet to seat the work piece “flatter” in the vise when the work piece is supported by parallels. Because I *now know* there is slight canting as the jaws are tightened, I am fighting the battle of prevention. Before such time I was unaware that a battle needed to be fought. More recently, I borrowed an angle vise from a friend. His mill-vise jaws opens widely enough that he is able to secure the base of his angle vise in his mill vise. The base of the angle vise is 7.250” square. The jaws of my vise open to only 6.5 inches thus I am unable to accomplish that which he enjoys.

So, my complaints are:
1. When using parallels, I seem to have a hard time getting both parallels to remain secure beneath the work piece. When the vise jaws are gradually tightened, one or the other parallel begins to freely move beneath the work piece. Then I smack the work piece with my leather hammer, the parallel becomes secure again, and I tighten the jaws more and repeat the process. Sometimes I am satisfied that the work piece is secure and flat against the parallel and at other times I feel a need to tighten a wee bit more, then naturally, the part slightly elevates having no more support by at least one parallel.
2. My other complaint is, the jaws won’t open wide enough to secure the angle vise.

I have attempted to tighten the center screw, pictured in the second image, thinking this might minimize work-piece canting but I really think it’s worse when the screw is tightened. What is the purpose of the center screw? Is there a “trick” to minimizing canting when using the vice pictured?

I really can’t afford a Kurt vise at this time. I have been told that a Kurt will alleviate the problem of “slight canting” but I can’t spare the money at this time. Additionally I prefer to have a swivel base which significantly adds to the cost of a Kurt.

What name brand milling vise will come close to performing as the Kurt, and in part spare me some of the problems I am having when using parallels and still have a swivel base with at least 7.50” of opening?

Harold

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/hwingo_2007/Vise1_zps8956ef30.jpg (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/hwingo_2007/media/Vise1_zps8956ef30.jpg.html)

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/hwingo_2007/Vise2_zpsd21c182c.jpg (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/hwingo_2007/media/Vise2_zpsd21c182c.jpg.html)

Arthur.Marks
10-29-2013, 01:35 PM
The center screw adjusts the half-spherical piece that pulls the jaw down against the base while tightening. It is what makes your vise a "Kurt style" milling vise. If you pull up the actual Kurt instructions -- which are applicable to your vise as much as for a genuine Kurt -- it wil say to tighten that middle set screw and then back off a 1/4 turn... http://www.kurtworkholding.com/downloads/pdf/D688%20Series%20VISE_MANUAL%20English.pdf

The moving of the workpiece can happen just as much from a lack of squareness in the workpiece as the vise. What I mean to say is "just buy a Kurt" is not the end all be all solution to everything. I might suggest clamping a 1-2-3 block on your parallels and tightening it up. Does the 1-2-3 block lift the same as your workpiece? If not, your issue is with the work being clamped. If it does, then the issue is in the vise. If the vise itself is ground out of square / parallel it can have the effect you mention. You already have a "pull down" aka "Kurt style" vise, so your jaw is not lifting as it is tightened.

When I really want to square stock perfectly, I start out with a piece of drill rod between the workpiece and the movable jaw. That is necessary to establish a single reference plane -- the fixed jaw -- rather than fight a balance between two out-of-parallel faces of the workpiece.

Lastly, even with very high precision vises it is a good practice and sometimes necessary to tap work down.

[EDIT:] Forgot the vise clamping issue. Are you familiar with the ability to reposition one or both jaws to the outside of the normal opening? This allows for clamping vastly larger workpieces. I expect you can mount your angle vise using one of these alternate jaw positions. Bottom right, "jaw plate positions" drawing: http://www.kurtworkholding.com/manual-vise-opening-p-1205-l-en.html

Dr Stan
10-29-2013, 01:50 PM
I really can’t afford a Kurt vise at this time. I have been told that a Kurt will alleviate the problem of “slight canting” but I can’t spare the money at this time. Additionally I prefer to have a swivel base which significantly adds to the cost of a Kurt.

What name brand milling vise will come close to performing as the Kurt, and in part spare me some of the problems I am having when using parallels and still have a swivel base with at least 7.50” of opening?

I'd use Search Tempest to see what you can find on Craig's List. You may also want to check out Lost Creek Machine just outside of Chicago and HGR Surplus near Cleveland, OH. Find out if they will use USPS flat rate boxes to keep the shipping within reason. BTW, I have purchased from Lost Creek and am a very satisfied customer. I have not purchased anything from HGR, but have read good reports on the business.

hwingo
10-29-2013, 01:52 PM
Good Morning Arthur!

I very much appreciate your return post. I will give your instructions a go.

I was also aware that I could reposition the jaws but had totally forgotten that option. That too I will try. Very good information and I thank you for replying.

Harold

hwingo
10-29-2013, 01:59 PM
I'd use Search Tempest to see what you can find on Craig's List. You may also want to check out Lost Creek Machine just outside of Chicago and HGR Surplus near Cleveland, OH. Find out if they will use USPS flat rate boxes to keep the shipping within reason. BTW, I have purchased from Lost Creek and am a very satisfied customer. I have not purchased anything from HGR, but have read good reports on the business.

Hi Dr Stan,

I've been meaning to "speak a special howdy" to you. Though my home is now in Alaska, I was born in Hopkinsville and raised in Dawson Springs. Undergraduate studies took place at Murray State Univ and received doctorate from UK. I still have acquaintances in Owensboro.

Thanks for the info on Lost Creek. I will check them out immediately if not sooner.:D

Harold

_Paul_
10-29-2013, 06:03 PM
You might find this interesting Polishing a turd (http://www.docsmachine.com/projects/4vise/4vise-01.html)

Regards

Paul

loose nut
10-29-2013, 06:26 PM
Some of these cheap Kurt copies are perfectly fine but many are crap. You can't tell until you run some tests on them and hope the cast doesn't break.

hwingo
10-29-2013, 06:36 PM
You might find this interesting Polishing a turd (http://www.docsmachine.com/projects/4vise/4vise-01.html)

Regards

Paul

Interesting read Paul. It took a lot of work to make the vise "acceptable".

Harold

TOOLZNTHINGS
10-29-2013, 08:16 PM
Hi,
Buy a Kurt. It will last forever and work the best for you. Enco has sales and or free shipping. As a suggestion try not using the swivel base and NO keys in the vise. You can position anywhere on the mill table, increase " z " height and it will be way more rigid.
Hope this helps.
Brian

PixMan
10-29-2013, 08:50 PM
I have one of those POS vises. The best thing I did for it was to take it off the swivel base. I will not be doing the "rework" shown to polish the turd, but use it as is until I find the right Kurt 675 or 688 at the right price.

hwingo
10-29-2013, 10:19 PM
I have one of those POS vises. The best thing I did for it was to take it off the swivel base. I will not be doing the "rework" shown to polish the turd, but use it as is until I find the right Kurt 675 or 688 at the right price.

Hi PixMan,

The issue I am having is not with the swivel but rather with the jaws of the vise causing one side of the work piece to "ride-up" as the jaws are tightened. Heck fire, I've even warped several of my parallels while attempting to force my will on canting as I futilely (and often brutally) *beat* the non-compliant work piece into submission with a leather hammer.

Arthur pointed out one of my major fears, that being, any vise is apt to present the same issues, i.e. canting therefore I may be pouring sand down a rat hole if fooling myself into buying an expensive dose of like medication. Once that happens, the cow is through the gate with no chance of immediate recovery. I must be cautious because we (Alaska) are not considered CONUS (Continental United States). Shipping is VERY expensive ...... in both directions ...... even if the firm is willing to fully accept returned items. Living in Alaska is neither simple nor equatable. But this is a choice that I have made and this decision squarely rest on my shoulders.

Harold :)

Spin Doctor
10-29-2013, 10:21 PM
Now this is just my take on things. I much prefer this style vise.
http://www.quad-i.com/products-vises.html
The reason is that we used them on ProtoTRAK equiped mills and it solved the x+/-, y +/- problems. It lacks the knob sticking out the back side of the vise that has the potential to lnterfer with the collunm. Which can be an issue on smaller machines. Plus I think it is safer in that when placing work in the vise because you are pulling towards you instead of pushing away. This can be an issue when doing multiple piece drilling operations without stopping the spindle

_Paul_
10-29-2013, 10:26 PM
Harold glad you enjoyed it, I came across the article after I bought a similar vice to yours from Axminster here in the UK I did entertain "polishing the turd" like "Doc" at first but never bothered as it really was too poorly made.

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x358/Donkey0atey/crap_vice021_zps43da688b.jpg

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x358/Donkey0atey/crap_vice017_zps062c2207.jpg

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x358/Donkey0atey/crap_vice012_zps26e73c4c.jpg

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x358/Donkey0atey/crap_vice005_zps73cb7544.jpg

Axminster did agree to a complete refund/return but they made such a fiasco of that in the end I settled on a 50% refund and kept the damn thing.

It now spends its days bolted on an ungraduated 1940s Shaper where accuracy isn't quite such an issue.

Paul

dalee100
10-29-2013, 11:21 PM
Good Morning Gentlemen,

So, my complaints are:
1. When using parallels, I seem to have a hard time getting both parallels to remain secure beneath the work piece. When the vise jaws are gradually tightened, one or the other parallel begins to freely move beneath the work piece. Then I smack the work piece with my leather hammer, the parallel becomes secure again, and I tighten the jaws more and repeat the process. Sometimes I am satisfied that the work piece is secure and flat against the parallel and at other times I feel a need to tighten a wee bit more, then naturally, the part slightly elevates having no more support by at least one parallel.

Harold



Hi,

What you are doing here, tightening - setting the part with the hammer- then retightening the vice - is naughty. That alone will cause you fits even with the finest vice ever made. Simply tighten the vice once - set the part - then mill. That will make your life go much easier and make your vice work much better.

The other common mistake many make with Kurt style vices is to over tighten them. You do not need to put a death grip on your part. It takes a lot less pressure on the handle than you think. So consider lightening up on the handle too. You don't need to spring the vice bed either.

Your vice will never be a real Kurt, but it should very well be more acceptable following these procedures.

dalee

dalee

Frank Ford
10-29-2013, 11:32 PM
Or, you might get unlucky - my vise was past warranty period when it sprung a leak:

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/Projects/ViseRepair/viserepair01.jpg

duckman
10-29-2013, 11:47 PM
I had a Kurt it needed to be polished, the bottom was not flat this was from the factory if you put it on the surface plate it would spin like a top. So I bought a Parlec (now TE CO) from ENCO, with out changing the jaws it opens up over 9", one thing that I bought was a 3 handle spider it makes the opening and closing a lot faster than the floppy handle.

hwingo
10-30-2013, 03:35 AM
Hi,

What you are doing here, tightening - setting the part with the hammer- then retightening the vice - is naughty. That alone will cause you fits even with the finest vice ever made. Simply tighten the vice once - set the part - then mill. That will make your life go much easier and make your vice work much better.

The other common mistake many make with Kurt style vices is to over tighten them. You do not need to put a death grip on your part. It takes a lot less pressure on the handle than you think. So consider lightening up on the handle too. You don't need to spring the vice bed either.

Your vice will never be a real Kurt, but it should very well be more acceptable following these procedures.

dalee

dalee

Hum ...... there in may be an initial problem (or the only problem). I really don't know how much to tighten a vise. Perhaps I should buy a torque wrench for sake of consistency. Seriously! If I knew approximate ft lbs I could simply go by that until I got the feel for things. I was watching an MIT you-tube flick where they found it necessary to "set" the work piece at least three or four times so I followed suit.

Harold

Jaakko Fagerlund
10-30-2013, 05:07 AM
That is why I prefer the hydraulic vises that you can tighten by the numbers. There is 4 lines around the tightening screw and each one represents 1 ton holding force. And it is like stirring soup when tightening, you don't feel any increasing resistance, just the small force that comes from the hydraulic fluid doing its job :) Vertex makes nice ones, have them at work.

Peter S
10-30-2013, 08:13 AM
I have never had the benefit of an anti-tilt type vise, just the ordinary old dovetail type supplied by Bridgeport etc. You tighten the handle and also give it a whack (the handle) with your copper hammer to make sure :). The job will have lifted off the parallels.

Then use your copper hammer (rawhide no good, unless the work piece is very soft like aluminium) to tap the job down onto the parallels. It takes a bit of practise to know where to hit.

This is how thousands of toolmakers have been doing it for a century or so...

But all bets off if work piece, or vise jaws not square. Vise should grip a sheet of paper evenly.

Stepside
10-30-2013, 08:35 AM
Harold

As to the moving parallels, I use what MSC calls Parallel Keepers when the vise is opened fairly wide. When it is narrow material I use a spring or a piece of sheet metal bent in a soft curve. I also make it a point to have the parallel that is on the moving jaw just slightly elevated until almost tight. This is to keep from scratching the edge of the parallel as it move across the vise.
I have been using a "dead blow" hammer to seat the part.

Pete

hwingo
10-30-2013, 11:59 AM
In short order, we’ve serendipitously arrived at a pertinent aspect of vice usage and setup. I think this is good timing and applicable to our discussion. For informational purposes, I would like to pursue this Order of March.

It would seem the majority of respondents, in one way or other, use parallels and employ the “whacking” method to seat parts in a milling vise. Although it was first stated by Arthur that tightening and seating is likely to be troublesome with any vice, Dalee (from Minnesota) was first to point out that I may be tightening too much, i.e. using too much force. Dalee has also suggested that I may be seating too many times. Dalee purposed that I secure the part in the vise with “reasonable force”, seat the part against the parallel (with a whack), then begin milling. Presumably, this is a technique that he employs and this suggests that he enjoys success with this technique. Others have advanced the notion that leather hammers may not be sufficient to seat certain metals and a soft metal mallet, e.g., copper hammer is the instrument of choice when seating the work piece.

I would agree there comes a point when too much force may be applied when tightening the vice in conjunction with too many “whacks”. I think there is also a point where too little force may be used to secure the part in the vise, but honestly, I can’t equate a numerical value with this statement nor a reasonable test that ensures sufficient force has been applied to secure the part. Most likely, all of us have experienced vibration or chatter that was sufficient to dislodge the “secured” part.

1. So what technique do you use and what test do you perform to satisfy reasonable “holding power”?

2. Do you tighten only once and give a “whack”, or do you repeat the process before “calling it good”?

3. Lastly, what is your choice of mallet?

Harold

Jaakko Fagerlund
10-30-2013, 12:55 PM
1. So what technique do you use and what test do you perform to satisfy reasonable “holding power”?

2. Do you tighten only once and give a “whack”, or do you repeat the process before “calling it good”?

3. Lastly, what is your choice of mallet?

Harold
1. Hydraulic vise as I previously suggested. Lets you off from the problems of knowing how much force is exerted on the part being clamped.

2. Tighten only once and whack it so many times or with enough force that the parallels do not move at all.

3. I prefer a good sized (1 kg) dead-blow hard rubber hammer, as many times I have to work with aluminum. Copper is nice when banging steel, but it will jump and possibly also make the workpiece jump, as the force of whack is not dissipated like with a dead-blow hammer. Copper is also nice as it doesn't dent steel and most importantly, it doesn't chip like other hammer materials do. It just deforms and deforms and slowly wears away in small flakes.

_Paul_
10-30-2013, 02:06 PM
IMHO a Deadblow is a must for "seating" components although occasionally I must admit to "tapping" things with the Drawbar Spanner/Hammer lol

Harold have you looked a Screwless vices? not quite as convenient to use but no lift when tightening, I have one on my Taylor mill

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x358/Donkey0atey/vicejaws-viceholddowns023_zpsfd892421.jpg

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/imagecache/e60138ab-0bfb-4a2e-8f35-a1b70114ab2a_453x286.jpg

http://littlemachineshop.com/Products/Images/480/480.1590.jpg

hwingo
10-30-2013, 03:13 PM
Good Morning Paul,

Actually, I have looked at such a vise from time to time. I have a very small vise like the ones you have shown but it is never used. It came with a tiny mill that was purchased, years ago, from Sherline. Someone had once commented that these were really good vises.

Have I read you correctly that such vises do not allow the part being held to "ride up" when being clamped? I have a brand new CNC Mill and I would really like to get a decent vise that could be used for a LONG time without experiencing problems. What few times I used the small vise in the Sherline mill, the only setback that comes to mind is, I would frequently need to change positions of the circular stock beneath the vise when needing to adjust for part size.

What "draw backs" have you encountered? Are these good vises?

Harold

hwingo
10-30-2013, 03:23 PM
Paul,

I have done a quick search on ENCO's site and the largest I could find only opened 5 inches. I wonder if there are larger vises such as these?

Harold

Forestgnome
10-30-2013, 03:36 PM
Hi,

What you are doing here, tightening - setting the part with the hammer- then retightening the vice - is naughty. That alone will cause you fits even with the finest vice ever made. Simply tighten the vice once - set the part - then mill. That will make your life go much easier and make your vice work much better.

The other common mistake many make with Kurt style vices is to over tighten them. You do not need to put a death grip on your part. It takes a lot less pressure on the handle than you think. So consider lightening up on the handle too. You don't need to spring the vice bed either.

Your vice will never be a real Kurt, but it should very well be more acceptable following these procedures.

dalee

dalee

If you don';t tap it down you're guaranteed to be milling a slight angle. The lift of the workpiece means it moved, and it's not moving symmetrically. Depending on the vise the move can be quite large. If the piece isn't critical I don't tap it down, I just pull out the parallels.

Toolguy
10-30-2013, 04:03 PM
1. I tighten to "firm" with the handle appropriate for the job. Sometimes a short 3 wing "speed handle" is fine, sometimes the Kurt torque handle with 4 different levels of tight, sometimes the long straight handle that came with the vise.
2. Tighten once & seat.
3. I only use the orange molded plastic deadblow hammers. There are several sizes. You can pound on anything without damaging it. Orange because the dark green ones get lost the minute you set them down.

There are other ways to pull the workpiece down too.
There are vise jaws that are made like an adjustable parallel so when you tighten the vise the part of the jaw that contacts the work moves down.
My Kurt vises have a little ring cut in the bottom of the movable jaw on each side right behind the bolt on jaw. Each ring has a silicone O-ring in it that holds the jaw up a little when the vise is loose. When tightened, the pull down feature pulls the jaw and part down together.

Forestgnome
10-30-2013, 04:13 PM
I usually use a deadblow hammer. By the way, those toolmaker's vises aren't usually for milling. Not enough clamping force for a lot of operations. They're designed for grinding.

dian
10-30-2013, 04:44 PM
That is why I prefer the hydraulic vises that you can tighten by the numbers. There is 4 lines around the tightening screw and each one represents 1 ton holding force. And it is like stirring soup when tightening, you don't feel any increasing resistance, just the small force that comes from the hydraulic fluid doing its job :) Vertex makes nice ones, have them at work.

thanks, jaakko, i have three lines that i never noticed (because of the dirt). are you sure they are always one ton?

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae218/romandian/Berufsmatur008_zpsc1782ac0.jpg (http://s973.photobucket.com/user/romandian/media/Berufsmatur008_zpsc1782ac0.jpg.html)

because at 3 tons i would have expected the (soft) wood to give in:

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae218/romandian/Berufsmatur009_zps9f0b0750.jpg (http://s973.photobucket.com/user/romandian/media/Berufsmatur009_zps9f0b0750.jpg.html)

by the way, the screw has a "cap" that can be rotated half a turn at a time (you have to push it in). would you know what that does?

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae218/romandian/Berufsmatur010_zpsa77c779c.jpg (http://s973.photobucket.com/user/romandian/media/Berufsmatur010_zpsa77c779c.jpg.html)

dalee100
10-30-2013, 08:19 PM
In short order, we’ve serendipitously arrived at a pertinent aspect of vice usage and setup. I think this is good timing and applicable to our discussion. For informational purposes, I would like to pursue this Order of March.

It would seem the majority of respondents, in one way or other, use parallels and employ the “whacking” method to seat parts in a milling vise. Although it was first stated by Arthur that tightening and seating is likely to be troublesome with any vice, Dalee (from Minnesota) was first to point out that I may be tightening too much, i.e. using too much force. Dalee has also suggested that I may be seating too many times. Dalee purposed that I secure the part in the vise with “reasonable force”, seat the part against the parallel (with a whack), then begin milling. Presumably, this is a technique that he employs and this suggests that he enjoys success with this technique. Others have advanced the notion that leather hammers may not be sufficient to seat certain metals and a soft metal mallet, e.g., copper hammer is the instrument of choice when seating the work piece.

I would agree there comes a point when too much force may be applied when tightening the vice in conjunction with too many “whacks”. I think there is also a point where too little force may be used to secure the part in the vise, but honestly, I can’t equate a numerical value with this statement nor a reasonable test that ensures sufficient force has been applied to secure the part. Most likely, all of us have experienced vibration or chatter that was sufficient to dislodge the “secured” part.

1. So what technique do you use and what test do you perform to satisfy reasonable “holding power”?

2. Do you tighten only once and give a “whack”, or do you repeat the process before “calling it good”?

3. Lastly, what is your choice of mallet?

Harold

Hi,

All I do is to check that the part is seated tight to the parallels. I guess I just know how much to tighten from enough experience doing it. A very general 'rule of thumb' I use is if the part rises up and I can't get it to seat on the parallels, then the vice is too tight. And I open up the jaw and re-tighten with less force. Sometimes it may take several whacks to seat the part, but I never try to re-tighten the vice.

As far as how much pressure to apply to a vice handle, well it's often a learned by doing thing. I wish I could show you in person, it's not really hard to get the feel. If you want real numbers, Kurt's manual for the D675 has a small chart that show approximate clamping tonnage to torque ft/lbs.http://www.kurtworkholding.com/downloads/pdf/D675%20VISE_MANUAL%20English.pdf

I often use a dead-blow hammer to seat, but any club that doesn't bounce is ok by me. One of my favorites is a chunk of copper that is 2"x3"x3". It's heavy but small enough to work under a mill head and it doesn't mar.

dalee

MarcAG
10-30-2013, 08:48 PM
Try a Gerardi vise, about same price as a Kurt, none of that whacking BS cause the vise pulls down the parts. On the pluss side many sizes and modular jaws and such are available.
Just my two cents.

_Paul_
10-30-2013, 09:28 PM
What "draw backs" have you encountered? Are these good vises?

Harold

Mine is 4" wide with a jaw opening of 5" I haven't found any problems using it on the small 18" x 6" Taylor mill and occasionally it gets used on my Bridgeport (normally just clamped in another vice) I have never had any part come loose in it.

It's only real "drawback" (if you can call it that) is the fact you have to use an allen key to tighten it not quite so convenient as a conventional vice, that said for me the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

You can get larger versions here in the UK have a look here Arceurotrade (http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices) they do a 5" width with a 6" jaw opening.

Paul

hwingo
10-30-2013, 09:33 PM
DALEE,

Thank you for replying and for offering up additional information ..... which is important. Your response is greatly appreciated and valued.

Harold

Arthur.Marks
10-30-2013, 10:34 PM
1. So what technique do you use and what test do you perform to satisfy reasonable “holding power”?
Basically, this is learned from experience. In some instances, firmly tightening the vise will spring the workpiece. After the work is removed from the vise, it "springs" back and out of true. Mostly, I just tighten the handle with both hands and call it good unless the workpiece is small, thin or fragile. Remember both that the handle is a lever and the screw is amplifying the force.
2. Do you tighten only once and give a “whack”, or do you repeat the process before “calling it good”?
The former. See below.
3. Lastly, what is your choice of mallet?
I almost always use a 42oz., ⌀2.1" head, Compo-CastŪ dead blow mallet. It is made by Stanley (http://stanleytools.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=SOFT+FACE+HAMMERS&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=57-533&SDesc=42+oz.+Compo-Cast%26%23174%3B+Standard+Head+Soft+Face+Hammer). This is with my 6" vise. I've meant to get another, smaller one with the "slimline" head, but never have. I typically reach for a Grace (http://graceusaguntools.com/hammers.htm) 8oz. brass hammer with smaller workpieces in a 3" vise. It has a ⌀3/4" head.

I would highly encourage you, Harold, to read Machine Shop Practice, Vol.1 & 2 by K.H.Moltrecht. The following is an excerpt:

After the workpiece has been positioned in the approximate center of the vise, the vise is clamped tight. To seat the workpiece on the parallels give it a "dead" blow with a lead hammer. A "dead" blow is one in which the hammer is not allowed to bounce away from the workpiece. If a lead hammer is not available, a regular ball pean hammer can be used by striking a "dead" blow against a piece of soft copper or aluminum placed over the work. In either case the hammer chosen must have enough weight to seat the workpiece... Special no-bounce hammers are available for such work as seating the workpiece in the vise.
The rough workpiece is seated when at least one of the parallels is tight. Because the rough surfaces are probably not square or parallel with each other, it is generally not possible to seat the work on both parallels. The vise should not be tightened further after the workpiece has been seated as this may cause it to become unseated. Vol.2, p.22

Pages 20-21 outline simple procedures for checking and quantifying the milling vise for square and parallel using a precision-steel square (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machinist_square). * An example of this type of special hammer is the Stanley one I mention above. It is filled with small steel shot. It lands "dead" similar to a dropped bag of sand.

spope14
10-30-2013, 10:35 PM
I have an accupro gold vise that works great, about 30% less in price than a Kurt - but then again, I also have 6 kurts. One thing about tightening - you saw the pics of the broken vise? you can over tighten a vise, which damages a vise and causes tilt - kurt or not. Also causes workpiece problems like bowing in face milling and when drilling near edges, egg shaping. I have been using a handle similar to this one, made my own for the vises in my shop (16 where I work) to prevent over tightening. If I have to hammer the handle on a vise, then there is something else I should be doing with my set-up, or I should be making aluminum jaws with milled notches with slight canter and undercut to adjust for holding.

http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/Parlec_speed_handle_1.jpg

Jaakko Fagerlund
10-30-2013, 11:23 PM
thanks, jaakko, i have three lines that i never noticed (because of the dirt). are you sure they are always one ton?

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because at 3 tons i would have expected the (soft) wood to give in:

(http://s973.photobucket.com/user/romandian/media/Berufsmatur008_zpsc1782ac0.jpg.html)

by the way, the screw has a "cap" that can be rotated half a turn at a time (you have to push it in). would you know what that does?

[URL=http://s973.photobucket.com/user/romandian/media/Berufsmatur010_zpsa77c779c.jpg.html]
The only way to know for sure is to put a force indicator between the jaws and clamp it to see the tonnage.

And no, wood doesn't give in when compressed like that. At work we lay heavy die casting molds on wood pallets, on wod parallels and generally tip them over some wood planks with the crane and the usual weight range is between 2-8 tons and nothing happens to the wood.

Don't really know about the cap, the vertex made vises have that sort of cap too that is spring loaded, so that it pushes the tightening socket/key out a little. It helps in turning the handle several rotations, as the socket in the handle has a round portion first before the hex and that way you can rotate it in place and just push a little to get the hexagon to take grab again.

hwingo
10-31-2013, 01:59 AM
Machine Shop Practice, Vol.1 & 2[/U] by K.H.Moltrecht. The following is an excerpt:

After the workpiece has been positioned in the approximate center of the vise, the vise is clamped tight. To seat the workpiece on the parallels give it a "dead" blow with a lead hammer. A "dead" blow is one in which the hammer is not allowed to bounce away from the workpiece. If a lead hammer is not available, a regular ball pean hammer can be used by striking a "dead" blow against a piece of soft copper or aluminum placed over the work. In either case the hammer chosen must have enough weight to seat the workpiece... Special no-bounce hammers are available for such work as seating the workpiece in the vise.
The rough workpiece is seated when at least one of the parallels is tight. Because the rough surfaces are probably not square or parallel with each other, it is generally not possible to seat the work on both parallels. The vise should not be tightened further after the workpiece has been seated as this may cause it to become unseated. Vol.2, p.22

Pages 20-21 outline simple procedures for checking and quantifying the milling vise for square and parallel using a precision-steel square (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machinist_square). * An example of this type of special hammer is the Stanley one I mention above. It is filled with small steel shot. It lands "dead" similar to a dropped bag of sand.

Arthur,

I have vol 1 but not vol 2. Since you have quoted Vol 2, I can see a purchase is in order.:cool:

Harold:)

krutch
10-31-2013, 01:01 PM
hwingo,
I have not read all these posts here so don't know if this has been said already.
I've used Kurt and other vises and all have some "rise" to them. The Kurt's are better tools. It is rare to find one that won't need to be hammered to get equal parallel contact at some point with some work. I use a dead blow hammer and, if the surface is already finished, some kind of sacrificial shim between hammer and work. Nylon flat stock works well.

dian
10-31-2013, 01:43 PM
if you have a peice that is not square, it will lift on the side having the larger angle on the bottom (parallelogram). to prevent this, you place a round rod against the other jaw. but thats not it, you have to find the right vertical position for the rod. my vise has horizontal groves in the jaws which makes it repeatable. it also helps o put a thin piece of rubber on the sie that lits.

btw, if i clamp a 123 block in the vice, its on the side of the fixed jaw, where i can move the parallel.

hwingo
10-31-2013, 03:58 PM
if you have a peice that is not square, it will lift on the side having the larger angle on the bottom (parallelogram). to prevent this, you place a round rod against the other jaw. but thats not it, you have to find the right vertical position for the rod. my vise has horizontal groves in the jaws which makes it repeatable. it also helps o put a thin piece of rubber on the sie that lits.

btw, if i clamp a 123 block in the vice, its on the side of the fixed jaw, where i can move the parallel.

Dian,

Regarding the 123 block, one individual, posting to this thread, had stated if a 123 block is used and there is "lifting" then it's a fault with the vise and I *think* he might have been saying that the jaws of the vise are not parallel.

Harold

Wie gehts in der Schweiz?

Forestgnome
11-01-2013, 09:38 AM
Dian,

Regarding the 123 block, one individual, posting to this thread, had stated if a 123 block is used and there is "lifting" then it's a fault with the vise and I *think* he might have been saying that the jaws of the vise are not parallel.

Harold

Wie gehts in der Schweiz?

That's a good check. My thought is, that since it is an angle-lock style vise, maybe it's the fixed jaw that's deflecting. I would pull the fixed jaw, check for flatness, squareness, and burrs, and reinstall after fixing any problems found.

dian
11-01-2013, 01:58 PM
well, any vice will deflect. i was just saying how to deal with it.

michigan doug
11-01-2013, 03:04 PM
I own a fair amount of imported asian tools. Not the vise though. I saved up and got a kurt. No regrets.

I think I would rather shop for a used kurt than a new chicom imported vise. The drill press has a chinese vise. It's fine for that.

doug