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hwingo
11-16-2013, 11:32 PM
Good Evening Y'all,

I am seriously considering the purchase of a new Chi-Com Universal Cutter Sharpener. Naturally, I would LOVE to own even a used Deckel but that is out of my league. Thus, I will need to confine my considerations to "knock-offs".

I really have no need to sharpen mill cutters, straight flute reamers, or even drill bits but I am always needing to shape lathe cutters (HSS and Cobalt special need lathe bits from blanks) and even the occasional preexisting cutters that are tired and dull.

WT and Northern Tool have new Universal Cutter Sharpeners for sale that won't break the bank.

Have any of you had experience with these machines from either company? Eight to 10 years ago I entertained a purchase but read several comments of personal experiences that were less than "satisfactory". Again, I realize "knock-offs" are inferior to even well used sought-after Deckels but ............

Since I live in Alaska, no company will ship free as they do in the Lower 48. If something is wrong with the machine on arrival (which some have experienced), I will be paying freight both ways. I need to avoid this if at all possible.

Experiences, suggestions, advise, and cautions are welcome.

Harold :)

JEZX
11-17-2013, 06:59 AM
i have one from Northern , i love it , it takes a lil bit to figure out how to do all types of cutters but you can do a realy good job . i shapen lots of hss and carbide endmills and make lots of special cutters for milling and lathe .
buy a diamond wheel for it as well , they are $25-40 but you will love it ... and you need it for carbide anyway .

firbikrhd1
11-17-2013, 09:02 AM
I just watched the video of the Northern Unit and while the unit itself looks good, the wheel they have on it is awful. It appears to wobble all over the place. If I were trying to sell these things I'd sure demonstrate one that had a round wheel or dress the one that came with it before I shot the video.
http://bcove.me/113kc7qz

deltaenterprizes
11-17-2013, 09:14 AM
The first one I got from NT had problems with the attachments, the second one had a
220 volt bulb on a 120 volt machine and sometimes needs a little help to get the wheel spinning.
I could not return the attachments for replacement, I had to return the whole machine.

JCHannum
11-17-2013, 09:50 AM
The Northern Tool customer reviews are pretty devastating. ""If you don't expect much, you won't be disappointed...";

http://reviews.northerntool.com/0394/426245/free-shipping-universal-cutter-grinder-reviews/reviews.htm

If your only need is to sharpen lathe cutters, I would suggest either getting a good double end tool grinder or fabbing adjustable tool rests for your bench grinder. Either will do a better job than the NT machine.

loose nut
11-17-2013, 10:29 AM
I have a friend with one from Wholesale that is OK.

I bought one from there and the attachment for grinding the flutes of endmills was a sloppy fit, barrel to housing, so I made a new barrel (the inside of the housing was parallel and round) , lapped it in so it is a nice sliding fit and now it is OK. Everyone that has bought one from WT, that I know, including myself, has said that the wheel nut wrench is the wrong size, easy enough too make a new one so I wouldn't worry about that. My grinder is heavy, probably well over a hundred pounds, maybe less because I'm old and weak but runs vibration free. All the angle and degree markings are quite nicely done, not like the usual stick on tape or vibrator etchings that you frequently find on low end equipment. Over all fit and finish was good, all the locking handles are a good design and work very well and once the swivel heads are set they lock up tight. These machines, with the attachments, are doing work that is way beyond what the original design was intended for. Good enough for a home shop that can't afford the real deal and once "tuned up" will do the job, not so much for a working shop that can't afford to mess around.

The Wholesale version comes with all the attachments that are usually sold separately and is or was the cheapest one around. Read into that what you want. If you want to grind the ends of endmills it would be better to get a dish type wheel so that the tips of the teeth (4 flute have a problem with this more so then 2 or 3 flute) don't foul the side of the wheel.

Just remember that it's not a Deckel and may need a bit of work.

Blackadder
11-17-2013, 11:17 AM
don't waste your money

they are dekel copies , look at what the same dekel will do its a single point engraving tool maker/sharpener its useless for end mill flutes evan with the attachment ( you meed a air bearing for that job )
it will not reverse
its no more than a single ended bench grinder for lathe tools

I do know I had one got rid and made myself a Quorn even that needs a air bearing to do flutes
with end mills if they are big enough to be sharpened send them off to be done and think how many you could get done for the price of that grinder

a good two headed bench girder will do all you need for HSS tools

Stuart

DR
11-17-2013, 11:22 AM
............

Since I live in Alaska, no company will ship free as they do in the Lower 48. If something is wrong with the machine on arrival (which some have experienced), I will be paying freight both ways. I need to avoid this if at all possible.

Experiences, suggestions, advise, and cautions are welcome.

Harold :)

I've shipped items to Alaska so I know what you mean about the cost...expensive.

If you buy with a credit card and the item shows up defective can you dispute the charge so the seller would have to deal with the shipping expenses both ways?

DR
11-17-2013, 12:46 PM
don't waste your money

they are dekel copies , look at what the same dekel will do its a single point engraving tool maker/sharpener its useless for end mill flutes evan with the attachment ( you meed a air bearing for that job )
it will not reverse
its no more than a single ended bench grinder for lathe tools

I do know I had one got rid and made myself a Quorn even that needs a air bearing to do flutes
with end mills if they are big enough to be sharpened send them off to be done and think how many you could get done for the price of that grinder

a good two headed bench girder will do all you need for HSS tools

Stuart


Your opinion is like others I've read on this forum, I believe John Stevenson is of the same opinion.

It's totally contrary to my experience and others I know who have Deckel's. Yes, I agree it won't do the OD of an end mill, it will do the ends though. Drills, reamers, lathe bit and a whole lot more.

When I see Deckel grinders come up for sale they typically go for far more than is expected. That could mean lots of confused buyers or knowledgeable buyers wanting a useful tool.

Bob Fisher
11-17-2013, 01:00 PM
If your only need is sharpening lathe bits, a good grinder with a pair of good wheels is all you need. Modifying the tool supports can go a long way for accurate angles. An 8in grinder is also a good investment. Bob.

Blackadder
11-17-2013, 01:02 PM
Yes but these are not Dekals they are nowhere near the quality they are very poor and I will standby my comments they are only single lip cutter ginders like the Dekel SO

they are also clones of these the instruction manual is here showing what the proper one can do


http://www.uphill.org.uk/pages/engineering/machinery/alexander/handbook/front.htm

John Stevenson
11-17-2013, 01:19 PM
Your opinion is like others I've read on this forum, I believe John Stevenson is of the same opinion.

It's totally contrary to my experience and others I know who have Deckel's. Yes, I agree it won't do the OD of an end mill, it will do the ends though. Drills, reamers, lathe bit and a whole lot more.



It will only do the ends of small cutters, once you get into the larger sizes you can't get the head tilted down enough.

It's not sour grapes, I have one and use it all the while but in all fairness mine is just used as a free hand grinding spindle for licking up carbide cutters and tips.

It really needs some pictures to show the pitfalls, I have been meaning to take some but never seem to get round to it.

If one of the swivels was redesigned left hand instead of right hand [ or reversed ] it would make it far more usable. Plus biggest draw back is that it needs to be longer to get longer cutter in, again pictures would show better the drawbacks.

Long short is it's a single lip cutter which doesn't have the problems of clearance onto the next tooth that a end mill has.

hwingo
11-17-2013, 01:43 PM
I've shipped items to Alaska so I know what you mean about the cost...expensive.

If you buy with a credit card and the item shows up defective can you dispute the charge so the seller would have to deal with the shipping expenses both ways?

DR,

That's a good very question. As soon as I actuate "post reply" I intend to ask my CC company that question. Thanks for your question. This definately merits investigation.

Harold

hwingo
11-17-2013, 03:52 PM
I've shipped items to Alaska so I know what you mean about the cost...expensive.

If you buy with a credit card and the item shows up defective can you dispute the charge so the seller would have to deal with the shipping expenses both ways?

DR, I called the CC company and explained the scenario regarding shipping cost. Their answer was succinct and to the point, "We have no dog in that fight. Shipping charges are between you and the merchant".

It took nearly 30 minutes of pressing buttons on the phone, and listening to nearly every automated service offered, before FINALLY being connected to a live human. It took nearly 14 seconds to hear their official position. There, you have it. My CC company will not get involved in that fight. Perhaps a different CC company might but this CC company will not support me regarding shipping cost.

Harold

John Stevenson
11-17-2013, 04:30 PM
OK been in the workshop and got some pictures, probably crap but need to download them.

Give me 1/2 hour, 3 coffee's and I'll start a new thread called Universal T&C grinder shortcomings

coldformer
11-17-2013, 05:03 PM
lathe tools in high speed bench grinder fine toon with a die grinder then hone with a stone why the overkill?

loose nut
11-17-2013, 07:18 PM
It will only do the ends of small cutters,

Long short is it's a single lip cutter .

Well not exactly, while it won't do the job like a air bearing grinder, people have sharpened the sides of endmills. Not up to CNC quality but this is for a home shop.

As far as it being a single lip only cutter grinder, if you go to the Deckel site and look at the info pamphlet they do sell some attachments so it can sharpen other things, like drills.

Just use some imagination and get on with it.

Arthur.Marks
11-17-2013, 08:36 PM
Well not exactly... people have sharpened the sides of endmills.
Can you point me to a reference? I realize the workhead can be rotated cylindrically, but I didn't think it could slide axially to follow a helical flute. I've also never seen a finger rest attachment (it could be made). The Quorn is a very similar machine in its basics, but the workhead has significant, functional differences in regard to end mills. I've never used one of these Deckel type grinders, but I have given them honest thought in the past.

loose nut
11-18-2013, 12:30 AM
I don't think the Deckels ever did that but the imports have extra attachments for that purpose. Look for one with a cylinder in the barrel housing (for the lack of a better term) that slides length wise and also rotates. You mount the end,I'll in a collet in the cylinder, set the machine up and the end mill runs back and forth while rotating against the wheel. Confused, you need to read a manual to get it (available on the web). This isn't a fancy air bearing type of grinder so don't expect those type of results but end mills were sharpened before there were air bearings. This machine is for home shops were we can't get or afford the fancy equipment that professional shops use. Your success may vary according to the effort you put into it, there is a learning curve.

Arthur.Marks
11-18-2013, 01:11 AM
Ah - thank you. I found it. The other places I had looked didn't offer it. http://www.grizzly.com/products/T21510

MichaelP
11-18-2013, 02:09 AM
Harold,

As it was said above, a simple grinder is all you really need for your lathe tools. However, if you want a much more precise and sophisticated machine (and a one that will be helpful for many other tasks), look into buying a surface grinder.

Mike

dp
11-18-2013, 02:11 AM
Ah - thank you. I found it. The other places I had looked didn't offer it. http://www.grizzly.com/products/T21510

I see they're careful to note it can sharpen the edges of an end mill but say noting about the ends of end mills. I've aways understood these machines are great for engravers and the occasional `D' bit drill. On youtube if you search for single lip grinder these are what shows up.

hwingo
11-18-2013, 02:44 AM
Harold,

As it was said above, a simple grinder is all you really need for your lathe tools. However, if you want a much more precise and sophisticated machine (and a one that will be helpful for many other tasks), look into buying a surface grinder.

Mike

Mike, I posted this statement in John's thread regrading "Short commings of the Universal Tool Grinder" so I will also post here to include a follow-up question.

"I realize that much of this can be done with a simple bench grinder for most individuals, BUT, some individuals may have physical disabilities and/or limitations that may easily diminish motor skills. Physical insults limit dexterity when fine eye-hand coordination is required, e.g., prosthetic arms, missing fingers, muscle destruction, arthritis, poor eye sight or partial blindness. This machine may be a blessing to those with physical limitations. Even the mundane task of shaping and sharpening blank lathe cutters for those having no disabilities can challenge the physically disadvantaged. For the time being, I am not even interested in working on end mills. I am interested in shaping and sharpening lathe bits".



Do you think this machine would improve "life in the Home Machine Shop" for those needing to shape and sharpen lathe cutters when having the above physical disabilities?


Harold

JCHannum
11-18-2013, 07:13 AM
I'm not Mike, but, in my opinion, this machine would make sharpening lathe bits more difficult and frustrating for those with the physical limitations described.

Probably the most difficult part of grinding a lathe bit in a double end or bench grinder is holding the bit. This can be overcome by making simple holders of mild steel with a milled groove to hold the bit. If desired, these can be made with the proper angles machined in them to further simplify the task. Such holders are often found in the tool boxes of machinists who used them when this was a usual part of their job.

Arthur.Marks
11-18-2013, 09:08 AM
My initial thought is: yes. The grinding action is held to a simple swing of the tool rest into the wheel. Depth of cut can be set simply and accurately with a dial. On a bench grinder or double end grinder, if fine motor skills are an issue holding the tool (or holder + tool) against the angle rest and keeping the fine advancement into the wheel might present an issue.

The issue of great importance with the "universal" cutter grinder presented in this thread is the handles. There are a great many handles -- and all presented at odd positions/angles in use. Much would depend on one's ability and ease in operating them. If that is a challenge, I would have to agree with Jim above.

One item to mention that might be helpful in resolving motor difficulties is this: http://alisam.com/page/14g9f/Metalworking.html (click "tool big grinding jig" on the left)
These jigs remove the handles and allow the setting of compound angles. They're used in conjunction with a simple bench grinder or belt/disc sander.

JCHannum
11-18-2013, 10:09 AM
Thanks Arthur, I had forgotten about these. They are a copy of the original South Bend grinding fixture and probably the simplest of adjustable fixtures available. One of these and a bench grinder combo disc-belt grinder/sander is all you need to accurately grind HSS lathe bits. One would not be terribly difficult for the HSM to shop fab.

http://alisam.com/page/14g9f/Metalworking.html

MichaelP
11-18-2013, 12:42 PM
Do you think this machine would improve "life in the Home Machine Shop" for those needing to shape and sharpen lathe cutters when having the above physical disabilities?


Harold, I don't. In fact, I agree with Jim.

loose nut
11-18-2013, 02:20 PM
The issue of great importance with the "universal" cutter grinder presented in this thread is the handles. There are a great many handles -- and all presented at odd positions/angles in use. Much would depend on one's ability and ease in operating them.

There are a lot of handles but they are the type that you can pull them out and move them without loosening them off to get them out of the way so they don't interfere with each other or the tool it self.

As to how a handicapped person would be able to use them would come down to each individual person. They are not hard to tighten or loosen but that is relative to each individual and their ability or lack of it.

hwingo
11-18-2013, 03:08 PM
My initial thought is: yes. The grinding action is held to a simple swing of the tool rest into the wheel. Depth of cut can be set simply and accurately with a dial. On a bench grinder or double end grinder, if fine motor skills are an issue holding the tool (or holder + tool) against the angle rest and keeping the fine advancement into the wheel might present an issue.

The issue of great importance with the "universal" cutter grinder presented in this thread is the handles. There are a great many handles -- and all presented at odd positions/angles in use. Much would depend on one's ability and ease in operating them. If that is a challenge, I would have to agree with Jim above.

One item to mention that might be helpful in resolving motor difficulties is this: http://alisam.com/page/14g9f/Metalworking.html (click "tool big grinding jig" on the left)
These jigs remove the handles and allow the setting of compound angles. They're used in conjunction with a simple bench grinder or belt/disc sander.

Good Morning Guys,

I have taken a look at Tool Bit Grinding Jig. Very appealing. I see that compound angles can be easily obtained. I assume that once the desired compound angle is set, the device is then hand fed into the grinding wheel. Is that correct?

Is there a provision on the bottom (or side) of the fixture that would keep you "on track" with your intended/needed feed-path thus preventing accidental feeding at an unintended angle?

Harold

hwingo
11-18-2013, 04:22 PM
Well Guys,

I've taken the plunge and ordered the Alisam grinding jig and all components. Cost is far less than the Universal Cutter Grinder. It's worth a try. I may have to do some modification for the purpose of accommodation but I think that will be easy.

In passing, the gentleman with whom I spoke, told me about this company http://www.arwarnerco.com/ and they sell indexable inserts made from various grades of HSS. They also do custom grinding on HSS blanks of various sizes. So if you need a special lathe cutter, e.g., 60 DEG 13 TPI buttress threading tool, they can grind that for you. Just thought I would pass that along for those who may be interested. It might be nice to have HSS inserts and not worry about point or side breakage as we do with carbide. Who knows, even surface finish may be improved with HSS inserts.;)

Harold:D

JCHannum
11-18-2013, 04:24 PM
Harold, if used in conjunction with either a belt/disc grinder or a double end tool grinder, you would use the protractor they are equipped with to control the position of the tool bit. If using a common bench grinder, there is no such provision, so you would use the tool rest to guide it. That takes a bit of practice, but is not difficult to master.

I have a Jet double end grinder and did not get too much use out of it, it is headed to Craig's list shortly. I have replaced it with a bench grinder with shop fabbed tables that incorporate a protractor, that is the fourth option.

JCHannum
11-18-2013, 04:32 PM
Harold, the fixture provides no means for control. It is best used with a belt-disc sander/grinder or a double end tool grinder as both of these are equipped with a work table with a protractor head.

Adjustable tables can be shop fabricated for use with a common bench grinder. That is what I have done. I had a JET double end grinder, but was not getting much use out of it. It is headed for Craig's List as I recently replaced it with a bench grinder with tables of my own creation.

hwingo
11-18-2013, 04:36 PM
Harold, the fixture provides no means for control. It is best used with a belt-disc sander/grinder or a double end tool grinder as both of these are equipped with a work table with a protractor head.

Adjustable tables can be shop fabricated for use with a common bench grinder. That is what I have done. I had a JET double end grinder, but was not getting much use out of it. It is headed for Craig's List as I recently replaced it with a bench grinder with tables of my own creation.

JC,

Do you have any pictures of the one you have that sports the protractor, or are there any that are commercially made?

Harold

John Stevenson
11-18-2013, 04:58 PM
Well got a minute today and decided to grind a short 10mm cutter, one that will fit the machine easily.

Long short was it just doesn't feel comfortable using this machine. Got the impression you need 7 hands and everyone gets in the way.
Being tilted down also denies you a clear view of what you are doing.

Doesn't worry me as it will do engraving cutters very well [ it was designed for this after all ] and it;s still a free hand diamond licking wheel.

I still think that without a dedicated T&C grinder those jigs that fit a sticky plate on a surface grinder do a quick and serviceable job.

Joe Lee in post #19 in the Shortcomings thread posted a picture of the attachment.

JCHannum
11-18-2013, 05:06 PM
Here is the Veritas instruction sheet. For some reason they do not furnish a protractor, but it is nothing more than a smaller of the protractor used in a table saw.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/shopping/Instructions.aspx?p=43212

I built mine along the same lines. I just installed new photo software and don't quite have it sorted out yet. When I do, I will post photos.

Arthur.Marks
11-18-2013, 06:22 PM
I'm not a big proponent of the Veritas for the simple reason that the rest is still really small. Here is one with ample size and designed for sharpening lathe cutters: Grind-R-Table (http://www.grstools.com/tool-sharpening/grind-r-table/grind-r-table.html). The way it tilts, it retains centerline with the grinding wheel. The Veritas does not and due to the double joint construction makes changing angles double duty. i.e. you angle the top rest to what you want, but then the wheel edge has moved off center. So then you use the lower joint to lower it, but it also affects the angle again. I found it to be a PIA. Obviously, though, the AccuFinish table is really expensive for a basic rest. If you want to make one, there are excellent plans for a 'simple rest (http://www.homews.co.uk/page146.html)' in the book Tool and Cutter Sharpening by Harold Hall. There is also a more complex one (http://www.homews.co.uk/page145.html) outlined in Milling, A Complete Course.

hwingo
11-18-2013, 06:47 PM
I'm not a big proponent of the Veritas for the simple reason that the rest is still really small. Here is one with ample size and designed for sharpening lathe cutters: Grind-R-Table (http://www.grstools.com/tool-sharpening/grind-r-table/grind-r-table.html). The way it tilts, it retains centerline with the grinding wheel. The Veritas does not and due to the double joint construction makes changing angles double duty. i.e. you angle the top rest to what you want, but then the wheel edge has moved off center. So then you use the lower joint to lower it, but it also affects the angle again. I found it to be a PIA. Obviously, though, the AccuFinish table is really expensive for a basic rest. If you want to make one, there are excellent plans for a 'simple rest (http://www.homews.co.uk/page146.html)' in the book Tool and Cutter Sharpening by Harold Hall. There is also a more complex one (http://www.homews.co.uk/page145.html) outlined in Milling, A Complete Course.

Dang Arthur, where are you finding all these neat toys and projects? I'm gonna go broke reading your posts. We need to Knight you Sir Arthurpedia. :cool:

Harold

JCHannum
11-18-2013, 07:30 PM
OK, I got the photos sorted. This is mine, built from my box of odds & ends which included the 6" baldor grinder.

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn351/jchannum/P1110375_zps4b8b0c35.jpg (http://s320.photobucket.com/user/jchannum/media/P1110375_zps4b8b0c35.jpg.html)

The table is 4" wide X 3-1/4" deep which has proven adequate thus far. Had my scrap box yeilded larger material, I might have made it larger. I don't find the adjustments too cumbersome to handle, merely snug them in rough position and tighten after finalizing adjustments.

The protractor was made from a beater protractor, saving me the agony of indexing and numbering.

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn351/jchannum/P1110377_zps023b6113.jpg (http://s320.photobucket.com/user/jchannum/media/P1110377_zps023b6113.jpg.html)

Edwin Dirnbeck
11-19-2013, 03:08 PM
Try to get one with a 5C COLLET

I have used deckel type grinders for years and in many shops, but not how you think. Most people use them for a quick and easy SPIN GRINDER.They are very handy for making special size pins,step pins releiving the shanks of taps ,sharpening transfer punches,center punches and on and on. Also if you put a good dish diamond wheel on they are very nice for touching up and altering carbide cutters freehand. HOWEVER the deckel collets are too small [5/8 max] too long and too expensive and hard to find. So I have been lusting after a ''U3'' version of this grinder that uses 5C COLLETS.If you google u3 grinder there are many sellers ,but they all seem to be in china.This doesnt give much recorse if the deal goes bad . Does anyone know of a USA seller of the U3 5c grinder. Hope I didnt hijack your thread .Edwin

hwingo
11-19-2013, 03:48 PM
Try to get one with a 5C COLLET

I have used deckel type grinders for years and in many shops, but not how you think. Most people use them for a quick and easy SPIN GRINDER.They are very handy for making special size pins,step pins releiving the shanks of taps ,sharpening transfer punches,center punches and on and on. Also if you put a good dish diamond wheel on they are very nice for touching up and altering carbide cutters freehand. HOWEVER the deckel collets are too small [5/8 max] too long and too expensive and hard to find. So I have been lusting after a ''U3'' version of this grinder that uses 5C COLLETS.If you google u3 grinder there are many sellers ,but they all seem to be in china.This doesnt give much recorse if the deal goes bad . Does anyone know of a USA seller of the U3 5c grinder. Hope I didnt hijack your thread .Edwin

Edwin:

You did not hijack my thread. I too am on "the hunt" for any or all possibilities regarding a somewhat versatile instrument that might accommodate such things as you have described, to include lathe-tool-forming & sharpening abilities, but within price range of the average Home Shop Machinist. Such ideas are welcome in this thread.

Harold :)

hwingo
11-19-2013, 03:51 PM
JC,

Thank you for posting images of your setup. It looks simple yet comprehensive in function. I like your idea.

Harold

loose nut
11-19-2013, 06:25 PM
Most come with R8 collets??!!

hwingo
11-19-2013, 09:04 PM
Try to get one with a 5C COLLET

I have used deckel type grinders for years and in many shops, but not how you think. Most people use them for a quick and easy SPIN GRINDER.They are very handy for making special size pins,step pins releiving the shanks of taps ,sharpening transfer punches,center punches and on and on. ............. So I have been lusting after a ''U3'' version of this grinder that uses 5C COLLETS. .............. .Edwin

Out of curiosity, what is so special about the U3 that isn't favorable with others that are available in the US? Is it only the collet issue?

Harold

hwingo
11-20-2013, 01:02 PM
I was looking on Grizzly's site and found the following http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/Tool-and-Die-Grinder/G0687 which seemed identical to the one being sold by Wholesale Tool. The one sold by Grizzly is $1500.00 less any attachments whereas the one sold by WT is $700.00 which includes all attachments. Does the Grizzly machine have features above and beyond the unit sold by WT?:confused: Why the disparity?:eek:

Harold

loose nut
11-20-2013, 01:37 PM
No, they appear to be the same machine, mine is green but otherwise identical in appearance.

Why does it cost more?

1.Grizzly and others just charge more, prices on these machines vary considerably and some are lot more than what Grizzly charges.

2.May be better quality/quality control and maybe not, they do have customer service. You pays your nickel and takes your chance.

Edwin Dirnbeck
11-20-2013, 03:02 PM
Out of curiosity, what is so special about the U3 that isn't favorable with others that are available in the US? Is it only the collet issue?

Harold

Exactly, I allready have a complete set of 5c collets x 1/64 and every size square and hex 5c collets plus a few metric sizes.From what I can see,the u3 vesion appears to be the same as other versions ,except that the u3 uses 5c collets. Edwin

John Stevenson
11-20-2013, 06:03 PM
That one of mine in the other thread uses 5C's. I did have the choice at the factory of R8, 5C and some weird thing that I hadn't seen before.

I chose 5C as I have more of them

Edwin Dirnbeck
11-20-2013, 08:14 PM
That one of mine in the other thread uses 5C's. I did have the choice at the factory of R8, 5C and some weird thing that I hadn't seen before.

I chose 5C as I have more of them

John , could you tell me where you purchaced your grinder with the 5c collets and approxamate price.Thank you .Edwin

Blackadder
11-21-2013, 03:23 AM
here you go just click on the drop down for cutter grinder R8 /5C

http://www.warco.co.uk/universal-cutter-grinder/67-universal-cutter-grinder.html

Edwin Dirnbeck
11-21-2013, 09:22 AM
here you go just click on the drop down for cutter grinder R8 /5C

http://www.warco.co.uk/universal-cutter-grinder/67-universal-cutter-grinder.html
Blackadder,Thank you,I sent warco an email asking delivered price to St.louis Mo. 63129 USA. Edwin

EddyCurr
12-20-2013, 04:36 PM
Blackadder,Thank you,I sent warco an email asking delivered price to St.louis Mo. 63129 USA. EdwinIs the 240V version sold in the UK compatible with your local power?

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hwingo
12-20-2013, 04:50 PM
Not sure. If it were Germany then I think not. When I lived in Deutschland, standard was 240V 50 Hz. In the US they use standard 120V 60 Hz. So I don't know if the UK uses 50 Hz or 60Hz. US products did not fair well in Deutschland. Large transformers were in order to operate things like US sewing machines.

Harold

John Stevenson
12-20-2013, 05:04 PM
UK is 50 Hz.
UK gear will run in the US but a bit faster.

EddyCurr
12-20-2013, 05:09 PM
I believe 60Hz is common throughout NA. I wasn't sure, but suspected
that the UK runs on 50Hz and wanted to caution ED, albeit somewhat
belatedly.

Something that puzzles is why no one has suggested that hwingo
consider locating a Baldor Carbide Tool grinder or an import clone
of same, like this one at Grizzly?


Grizzly H7762 Tool Grinder (http://www.grizzly.com/products/H7762)

As discussed several times here, the clone will benefit from some
work to improve the table, true up the wheels, reinforce the motor
windings as well as from substitution of aluminum oxide wheels
(for HSS use) in place of the green silicon carbide wheels it comes
with (for carbide use). See the YT videos that two or more benefactors
have prepared.

A decent Baldor is harder to locate and more costly to acquire. Less
common is Rockwell's version, but nice, too.

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EddyCurr
12-20-2013, 05:30 PM
The 500 series Baldor machines come in two varients: the 500 (115V/60Hz) and
the 510 (208-230/460V) are for AO and SiC wheels; the 522 (115V) and the 532
(208-230/460V) are for diamond wheels. IIRC, the 522/532 run to tighter tolerance
to extend life of the diamond wheels.

The clones have been discussed extensively here under the Harbor Freight name
and appear on YT, likewise.

Rockwell's version is known as the 23-501 (115V).

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hwingo
12-21-2013, 01:34 PM
Something that puzzles is why no one has suggested that hwingo
consider locating a Baldor Carbide Tool grinder or an import clone
of same, like this one at Grizzly?


Grizzly H7762 Tool Grinder (http://www.grizzly.com/products/H7762)

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Hi Eddy,

Actually, the Grizzly was suggested but it was suggested off line. Another fellow and I have had lengthy emails about both the Grizzly Tool Grinder and the Grizzly Tool & Die Grinder. I have really been looking at the Grizzly Tool Grinder as well as the Grizzly Tool & Die Grinder. I just can't make up my mind. I *think* I would like to have the Tool & Die Grinder sold by Grizzly rather than ones sold by NT, WT, ST and other companies. I have several bench grinders but they are not worth a "hoot". Sure, they grind and do a good job on skin when you get into the wheel but one vibrates horribly, even though I have dress and re-dressed the wheels. It's just a cheap grinder. I really should get the other out of "moth balls" and give that grinder another chance. It's only a 6" grinder whereas the other is an 8" grinder.

Harold

GEP
12-21-2013, 04:21 PM
Herold
Grizzly discontinuedd the universal grinder. I called them for you and was told there was 1 left on there shelf that was a few weeks ago

hwingo
12-22-2013, 04:08 AM
Yes, you did and they found several more since then. Freight is a little over $400.00 to Alaska. Cost, with attachments, is over $2000.00 not counting freight.

Harold

GEP
12-22-2013, 08:19 AM
Landsman
If GRZZLY now fund several grinders and they have it listed as discontinued, they need to drop the price to be compatible with nothern the grinders are exactly the same made by the same China company so why waist money

hwingo
12-22-2013, 09:18 AM
What I would like to know is, how can you be absolutely *certain* it's the exact, same machine made by the exact, same company that produces NT's Tool & Die Grinder? They may look similar but how are you *certain* the machine is the same and quality equal? You just can't go by looks. The old style Volkswagen, once made in Deutschland, is now made in Mexico. You know as well as I that the Käfer ("Bug"), once made in Deutschland, was manufactured of the HIGHEST order by real Craftsmen who took pride in their work. Even today, German craftsmanship is celebrated world wide. The metal was superior and you can't beat SKF bearings that are still manufactured in my beloved Schweinfurt, DE. Just because the Käfer, now made in Mexico, looks identical to those once made in Deutschland, is in no way a convincing certainty that quality is equal to Deutsch craftsmanship. Grizzly advertises that side grinding (not just end grinding) can be carried out on mill cutters when using their machine. Owners of those bought at NT, ST, and WT have come straight out and stated, "The ends can be ground but there is not enough clearance built into their machine to sharpen the sides of mill cutters". Straight away, that speaks volumes. There are those on this forum and other forums having stated that the grinder bought elsewhere had to be rebuilt because of "slop" and poor tolerances. Why would I want to buy a "pig in a poke"? As of yet, not one single person on this forum has come forth and said, "I own a Grizzly Tool & Die Grinder" and I have found it to be good or bad (which ever). Some have stated they own one that "looks like the Grizzly" but they haven't said, "I own a Grizzly". Rather, it's those individuals having bought from NT or WT who have spoken out regarding their personal experiences with their Tool & Die Grinder. "People" saying, "Oh they are all made by the same company in China." is simply not the proof I need. In fact, that not proof at all. It's just people repeating what others have said. I can't afford to piss my money away on baseless hear-say.
Harold

loose nut
12-22-2013, 10:23 AM
Anyone of them, that are made in China and sold for about the same price are, even if they where not made in the same factory, about the same quality. Cheap. Grizzly quality isn't much or any better then other sellers, they may have a better customer service but other then a different colour it's all the same under the hood. If you want German quality then you have to buy made in Germany goods $$$$$, not made in China ¢¢¢¢.

That doesn't necessarily make them unusable but they are usually rough around the edges..

EddyCurr
12-22-2013, 01:46 PM
hwingo,

More than $2,000, plus frt equals a lot of money for a clone
of a machine that, while it may be capable of, is not primarily
designed for your intended application (lathe bit sharpening).

A question. Do the operator constraints mentioned in post #23
preclude or hinder the use of a tool grinder style of machine
like the Baldor 500 series?

I ask because Enco's catalog lists the Baldor 500 for $1,416
(Enco 160-2065) and the higher precision 522 for diamond wheels
at $1,592 (Enco 160-2120). (Wheels are extra for the 522 and
possibly the 500, too.) Plus, Enco is known to offer discounts
on equipment from time to time in the order of 15 - 25%. (Freight
costs might be somewhat lower than for the Universal Sharpener
because tool grinders weigh 110 lbs.)

The inference here is that for less money than mentioned above,
it is possible to acquire a brand new, brand name version of a
machine expressly designed for the intended application of bit
sharpening.

Further. It is not impossible that there might be equipment
dealers in your region that represent Baldor equipment and who
might include one of these grinders with a routine stock order,
for a further savings on freight costs to you.

Incidently, Baldor lists two AO wheels for these machines if you
are interested. The wheels have Norton product markings, but
when I briefly checked w/ Norton, the numbers did not come up.

Baldor #S46 wheel plate (46 grit - AO)
Norton
10281 2719 3/08
53A46 - K7 VBE
G9AP3004
Baldor #S61 wheel plate (60 grit - AO)
Norton
10281 2720 3/08
53A60 - N7 VBE
G9AP3005

Be aware that diamond wheels require a different fastener.
4pc - Hex Socket Countersunk Head Screws (for each wheel.)

Choosing a new Baldor might seem a pricy approach to some able
-bodied types here with knowledge, facilities, proximity and ect.
who favour buying used and/or making over a clone. For his own
reasons, hwingo may want/need to be able to unpack a box and
get to work.

FWIW, my Harbor Freight #46727-0VGA 1/2 HP 6" Tool Grinder
was purchased for something just over $100 after the discounts,
IIRC. (Not much more than the frt to get it here.) While the
machine exhibited characteristics of the breed already noted in
many places, it was usable out of the box for HSS bits, following
a change to alum ox wheels. A bargain - no matter what anyone
else tries to say. Subsequent remedial work has improved performance.
If chinese business culture included a meaningful feedback loop
geared to improving performance/quality of their products ...

Separate, but related: the suggestion earlier in the thread
about using a Belt/Disk sanding machine to shape/sharpen tool
bits deserves some further discussion. Belt/disk sanders have
a lot of utility, but come up short for bits for a few reasons.

An aluminum oxide wheel of the correct grade will cut HSS more
easily, with less heat and for much longer than a sticky-back
sanding disk. The 'friability' of the AO wheel - its characteristic
of breaking away as it wears continually exposes new cutting
edges to the bit, drawing heat away from the bit and self
-cleaning.

A silicon carbide wheel is appropriate for grinding carbide
tools and demonstrates friability, too. Perhaps there are
silicon carbide disks available for Belt/Disk sanders? If
so, the same limitations still apply.

Suitable dressing tools for cleaning/shaping wheels are
recommended - accessories or essentials, you be the
judge.

.

GEP
12-22-2013, 06:40 PM
Some say Grizzly has there own inspectors in the china factory's. Yea write, i don't believe it.
Grizzly is a big seller with facility's all over the us. I experienced first hand that there inventory count has a lot a lot to be desired.
In short i fully agree with Eddy. The cost of a Grizzly with all the attachments will also buy a Derex. I understand that Harold wants the most bang for his buck but its not Grizzly

EddyCurr
12-23-2013, 08:44 PM
Enco is known to offer discounts ...Coupon Code "MYGIFT" for an extra -15%. No minimums, no product exclusions

Good today 12/23 through Friday, 2013/12/27.

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