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J Tiers
01-04-2014, 09:24 PM
It's going to be reasonably cold here for a few days, we may have a high of -1F, and lows at -10 or so, which is rare for us.

So a neighbor called me to find out what should be done to deal with outside faucets. The non-"frost proof" type, and of course her shutoff valves do not work (when do they ever when you need them?).

She had been to the big box store, and was told to put pipe insulation around the pipes INSIDE THE HOUSE, so she bought some. Now, this is crazy, of course..... it might reduce the heating bill, but it may result in freezing the faucets. It's the heat from inside the house that will protect the faucets, and insulation prevents that from getting into the pipes.

The odd thing is that the store SELLS the insulated covers you put over the faucet on the outside, AND THEY ARE RIGHT NEXT TO THE PIPE INSULATION.

I wonder how many folks will have frozen pipes from this idiocy?

Lest you should believe it is not gonna happen, I already had to cap a pipe for another neighbor who had the faucet freeze right off the house, so there was a half inch stream of water pissing out of the side of the house this morning. We had to call the neighbor on cell phone (not at home) to come home so it could be dealt with. of course that shutoff valve didn't work either, so I had to cap it inside.

Should have taken a picture, but didn't.

vpt
01-04-2014, 09:33 PM
The way to stop any faucet from freezing is let it run.

J Tiers
01-04-2014, 09:47 PM
The way to stop any faucet from freezing is let it run.

And man will THAT make a big mess..... down the driveway, and down the hill, freezing everyone's tires to the road..... not to mention the ice buildup at the faucet.... Yowza.. Don't GO there.....

kendall
01-04-2014, 11:05 PM
And man will THAT make a big mess..... down the driveway, and down the hill, freezing everyone's tires to the road..... not to mention the ice buildup at the faucet.... Yowza.. Don't GO there.....

Once had an emergency call to fix a pipe. The owner had taken vacation while it was still halfway warm and apparently ran out of propane in the middle of a real bad freeze. Water pipes had broken directly above the water heater and frozen in some amazing formations, looked like a frozen fountain.

It was the prettiest 'disaster' I have ever seen in my life.

Paul Alciatore
01-04-2014, 11:55 PM
The "let it run" thing is only used in the deep South for the once every two or three year freezes and with houses that are built above the ground, on piers. It would take a lot of insulation and heat tape (the insulation would not be enough by itself) to protect all the exposed pipes in a house with that kind of construction. And even if you did do it, it would likely need to be repaired for just about every freeze. The freezes down here are usually short term and any ice that forms is usually melted by noon the next day so it is not a problem. A novelty, really. I did say the DEEP South.

I am in south Texas, near the Gulf Coast and I have the insulated covers for my outdoor spigots. They are all that is needed here.

Before you talk about my ignorance, I lived in a travel trailer in Iowa for over 15 years, 16 winters. I do know how to keep the water running in sub zero temperatures, even when it comes across the lawn in a hose. In fact, I am somewhat of an expert at it.

EddyCurr
01-05-2014, 12:19 AM
Are insulated covers alone sufficient?

Something that is used in this region for pipes in danger is water pipe
heating cable. Like an extension cord that is to be spiral wrapped along
a pipe. Comes in different lengths and has a thermo sensor intended
to regulate temperature (if applied correctly.) Might not help on the
small exposed portion of a faucet, but if there is access underneath
to the pipe running to the faucet ...

Battery warming blankets are another device that might be better
suited for the faucet head. These come in at least two outputs,
50W and 80W.

.

dp
01-05-2014, 12:21 AM
Run an extension cord out to the faucet and put an incandescent lamp in a block of foam fitted to the faucet. Oh - wait. Use a CFL or LED ;)

lakeside53
01-05-2014, 12:31 AM
Insulated covers alone are not sufficient. They are R2 at best IF they fit tightly.

EddyCurr
01-05-2014, 12:39 AM
So they work based on the home insulation being sufficiently
ineffective to leak heat that the cap captures if it seals well
enough.

An iffy premise for around here, but I suppose it can work in
more temperate areas that have a brief dip.

Edit: Oh - now I see the 'NOT'

.

PStechPaul
01-05-2014, 01:08 AM
We've been flirting with 0F here in the Baltimore area over the last week or so and this coming week is more of the same. I've had problems with pipes freezing for quite a while. When I bought the house in 1989 it had only minimal indoor plumbing to the kitchen sink, and had an outdoor privy. I had a septic system installed and my brother and his plumber buddies completely plumbed the drain and supply lines. It passed rough-in inspection, but I ran out of money to complete the renovations and I was living at my mother's house so I suspended my work there until 1999 when I moved in permanently, although it was still unfinished. When I turned on the main valve to pressurize the system (which had been drained), I found several broken pipes where the water was "trapped", especially under the floor where the kitchen sink was supposed to be. It looped into an unheated crawl space.

I rerouted some of the plumbing so that it could be drained properly, and I installed heat tape on most of the incoming lines, which mostly worked pretty well. But sometimes when there was a stretch of cold weather, it would freeze up overnight, and on one very cold day one of the main 3/4" inlet lines developed a crack. I have two main shut-off valves inside, on both sides of the pressure reducer valve, and I found that one of them did not work. There is also a main valve outside down below frost line in an old well pump pit, and that one works as well, but is difficult to access. I bought a plumbing repair kit at Home Depot with some sort of stretch-activated tape and tried to use it, but the pipe was in a difficult place and it didn't work. I returned it for a refund and bought a couple of "Shark-Bite" couplings and I cut out the bad section and replaced it.

Thereafter I added some more insulation and also used a heater and heat lamp to keep that portion from freezing, and it worked OK. Then I had a contractor come in to do some major renovations, and I told him that I had problems with the pipes freezing and gave him a couple of heat tapes to finish the job. But he just wrapped one of the heat tapes over top of the previously heat-taped cold water pipes, and ran the other along another portion of the cold water, but he did not put anything on the hot water line which was next to the cold line for the sink. He also installed the sink and it was now difficult to access the plumbing, but he thought it should be OK.

Later that winter, the hot water line froze up, but I was able to thaw it out before damage was done. When I complained, the contractor told me that he didn't believe heat tapes worked and he wanted to charge me extra to come back and fix it, but he wouldn't guarantee it. I declined, and the last couple of winters were not very cold, so I only had a couple times when it froze up, and I was able to thaw it out again. I also found that leaving the faucet run at a fast drip kept it from freezing again. It is usually the hot water that freezes, and the cold water actually runs hot for a while because apparently the extra heat tape does not regulate the temperature. Now that we have this cold snap, letting the water run seems to work well enough, and I know I will eventually need to pull out the sink and do it right. But I'm not sure heat tape is totally reliable, either. When this latest snowstorm hit last week, there were two power outages, but fortunately only for a couple of hours.

I heat primarily with wood, but the stove only puts out good heat for a few hours before needing fresh fuel, and it often gets so cold at floor level that my dog's water bowl freezes. And the year before I had the house insulated, I actually got frostbite on a couple of toes. I also have some electric baseboard heat which helps keep my bedroom reasonably warm, and I have some kerosene heaters as well as a couple of propane units I have not yet hooked up. I've lived under fairly primitive conditions since I first bought the house next to this one in 1977, and at that time I was younger and more adventurous and I somewhat enjoyed the challenge. But now that I'm nearly 65 and not as much able to do the work that I once took for granted, I'll have to look into ways to make living here more comfortable and not an adventure in survival. But then again, I think I am well prepared by my experience for when the "collapse" happens.

jhe.1973
01-05-2014, 01:53 AM
Hi Everyone,

Just going to pass this on in case any of you aren't aware of it.

If you insulate heat tape w/fiberglass & the insulation gets damp/wet it can conduct electricity over its surface and start nearby wood on fire.

I had it happen.

We lived in a Victorian house built in the late 1850s and it had a freezing trouble spot in the basement washroom under the first floor bath. I installed heat tape & put fiberglass around the area which solved the problem for years.

I was taking a late night bath and smoke stared coming up thru the floor around the tub's pipes. I ran downstairs to find no smoke & ran back up to find the bathroom now filled w.smoke. Ran back down again - still no smoke.

:confused:

I ripped out the insulation and found the 8X8 sill smoldering & the insulation wet. Spraying water on the sill put it out, but in a 100 yr. old house it would have spread quickly if I hadn't been right there when it started.

Once the fire was out I finished my bath 'cuz I never got dressed for all the excitement! Plus, my heart was pounding & now my feet were dirty. :D

My very young son liked to splash in the tub & over time it had been running down around the outside of the drain pipe & was soaking the insulation.

We also had an electric water heater & the life cycle of any water heater is that it will eventually leak. When ours started leaking around the lower element I found the nice little red plastic shock guard melted.

Guess where the heat came from - wet insulation.

I have since questioned of the wisdom of putting fiberglass insulation around 220 volt terminals when the inevitable leaks occur.

But who am I to question the wisdom? ;)

C_lazy_F_Guns
01-05-2014, 02:32 AM
So they work based on the home insulation being sufficiently
ineffective to leak heat that the cap captures if it seals well
enough.

An iffy premise for around here, but I suppose it can work in
more temperate areas that have a brief dip.

Edit: Oh - now I see the 'NOT'

.

Alaska here, got to take slightly more drastic steps too. I use the caps over my frost free taps or the suckers freeze the brass pipe and ice up the valve 12” inside the house. Not a big deal and does no damage (other than condensate dripping off them inside the house) but I do use the things year round for a steam cleaner and they freeze shut. Putting the cap on, moving insulation away and drilling a ” hole to let some heat from the basement into the cap works to at least -30f.

dian
01-05-2014, 02:41 AM
what are "frost free taps"?

kendall
01-05-2014, 04:25 AM
what are "frost free taps"?

exterior faucets that self-drain. they have a long body that extends into the wall with the washer and seat located inside the house where it is warm.

C_lazy_F_Guns
01-05-2014, 07:24 AM
what are "frost free taps"?
You must have them there by some other name.


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Hose_Bib_Cross_Section_Woodford_023_DJF_Eds.jpg&imgrefurl=http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Faucets_Outdoor.php&h=480&w=640&sz=67&tbnid=qU1xaKwXf9gK6M:&tbnh=118&tbnw=157&zoom=1&usg=__XrN6_iHStWA-cekmpopHqYdEd24=&docid=ZfBf70-ZPb9JOM&sa=X&ei=XU7JUsz3JsP9oATJqICoAQ&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAg

dian
01-05-2014, 07:28 AM
i have never seen that, neither on new or old houses here. i wonder why, as it seems like a good solution.

GEP
01-05-2014, 08:11 AM
Heat tape is super low amperage impossible to start a fire. You must have covered the thermostat

johnl
01-05-2014, 08:49 AM
[QUOTE=J Tiers;895753]It's going to be reasonably cold here for a few days, we may have a high of -1F, and lows at -10 or so, which is rare for us.

So a neighbor called me to find out what should be done to deal with outside faucets. The non-"frost proof" type, and of course her shutoff valves do not work (when do they ever when you need them?).

Used to live in New Orleans. Water for house came out of the ground up about 18 inches and then right angled into the house. In rare weather, it would freeze. Being lazy, A cardboard box with a small v cut out at the bottom went over the pipe and fit against the house. Then I just hung my trouble light from the pipe, and that was that. Of course you will need one of those old type bulbs. " Maybe they need to repurpose light bulbs into chicken coop heaters that are easy to spot when they fail. No ban on them."

vpt
01-05-2014, 09:05 AM
Speaking of frost free taps, I see I forgot to take the hose off the tap in the front yard this year. Its already 0f degrees this morning and will be dropping all day, I guess we will be seeing -50f degrees monday night or something.

I guess if the tap didn't split in the -15f degrees we had already for a number of days I won't have to worry about it now.


I also forget many of you southerners don't have basements. Thats one of the things pretty much every house has up here and also keeps the pipes from freezing.

We have a couple rents that have outdoor cellar entrances to the "basements" which get below freezing and have plumbing in them. We coil one of those heat wires (extension cable things people already mentioned) around the pipes and then wrap towels or blankets around the pipe and wires.

But like I mentioned earlier if it gets real bad we let the faucets run. You don't let them run full blast, you just turn them on to where you barely get a stead tiny stream coming out of them.

We also have 10,000 gallon live bait tanks outside with water in them 365 days a year, same for them, some water running threw them and agitators to keep the water churning and never any trouble.

J Tiers
01-05-2014, 09:20 AM
So they work based on the home insulation being sufficiently
ineffective to leak heat that the cap captures if it seals well
enough.

An iffy premise for around here, but I suppose it can work in
more temperate areas that have a brief dip.

Edit: Oh - now I see the 'NOT'

.

Eh, I dunno about the poor house insulation idea..... that's not it. Mostly the situation is that the PIPE conducts enough heat from a warmer area to the cold area to prevent water in it from freezing solid.

Where I grew up, we had cold to -40 sometimes, and commonly no warmer than -10F as a high for the day. The house had an outside tap with no cover etc at any time, and it never caused a problem. The fact that it was near the boiler may have had something to do with that.

Down here in the tropics, where it rarely gets to zero, let alone to -20 or whatever, a cover is a decent plan. It's no use scientifically explaining how ineffective they are, they work anyhow, although I have never bothered to use one here in the past. But it is supposed to stay cold for a while, and the cover is cheap insurance.

However, my amazement was at the folks (who should have known better if they had any means of actually thinking) who considered that the best way to keep an OUTSIDE tap from freezing was to carefully insulate it ON THE INSIDE, so that it could therefore get colder with no help from interior heat.

The right way is to simply shut off the internal valve, and drain the outside tap. This is automatic with a "frost-free" tap. Water can't freeze if it isn't present.

I have had to repair or "deal with" frozen pipes at three neighbors. One was yesterday, another was pipes too near a basement window. That split the copper pipes.

The third was a basement pipe to a new addition which was not insulated well enough. It also was copper, and the freezing actually pushed apart a good soldered joint... It had full solder coverage on both sides, but the solder was sheared, with linear marks where it had been simply pushed apart.

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 09:51 AM
JT while im in general agreement with you - "insulating pipes" is a very broad term and depends allot upon interpretation, for instance - it IS proper procedure to insulate pipes from the inside if the crawl space is radically vented or you have a trailer with simple non-insulated skirting, you insulate the pipes up against the warm floor and this WILL keep them from freezing - you are effectively insulating from the INSIDE of the structure - but it's in a way that will retain heat not seal the pipes off from it... very common practice from where im from anyways...

it in fact can save them from freezing in short runs even if they are not insulated against the floor - water has great dissipation qualities and it it's being kept warm a foot or two away it will transfer this warmth down the line, but not if it's hanging out exposed under a trailer in 20F, although insulate it and it will most likely survive if its a short run...

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 10:13 AM
Alaska here, got to take slightly more drastic steps too. I use the caps over my frost free taps or the suckers freeze the brass pipe and ice up the valve 12” inside the house. Not a big deal and does no damage (other than condensate dripping off them inside the house) but I do use the things year round for a steam cleaner and they freeze shut. Putting the cap on, moving insulation away and drilling a ” hole to let some heat from the basement into the cap works to at least -30f.


Both of my frost free valves have now frozen and split, one about 5 years ago and the other just this year and in fact it's split open right now, there seems to be some kind of drainage problem with them - perhaps the vacuum vents get stuck, it's not that big of a deal because they crack "outside" of the pressure area,
and they are a piece of cake to fix, just unscrew - peen the copper shut again and solder,,, that area only sees pressure when the spigot is cracked open anyways...

I do have a double valve set up for each of the swamp coolers I use, but go through the proper drainage procedures every fall of shutting down the frost free and opening up the secondary lower valve,,,,,,

Hmmmmmmm - think I might have just answered my own question, in fact I know I did, the diaphragm is most likely sticking in my frost free valves, they are not designed to be loaded all summer long and then when the pressure is disconnected expected to return to open the venting to allow proper draining of the 1 ft section,,, the secondary valves that screw on lower for the swamp coolers do just this as they are what you use for on-off water supply during the spring summer and fall months... and even though you leave them open in the winter and shut down the frost free you have to break the vacuum or the frost free will never effectively drain...

a quick "rat-tat-tat" with the wrench handle will most likely solve the problem after I go through the proper procedures , then if I see extra water pour out I know I will have jossled the vacuum valve - if not hooking up a short garden hose and drawing on it will do the trick im sure...

The shoe does fit - the first FF valve that froze was the one used for the house swamper many years ago, never had trouble with the other one and that's due to it never having the lower valve on it - till this year when I installed my solar powered swamper in the garage... now this one has frozen due it's diaphragm being loaded in one direction for about 8 months and then sticking - and therefor not properly draining the 1 ft safety section.

vpt
01-05-2014, 10:17 AM
The frost free valves need a slight angle toward outside to be able to drain off the water when the valve is shut.

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 10:23 AM
Andy they really don't - that takes care of itself as there's enough angle just in a level pipe to allow proper drainage so there is no way any threatening amount of water could possibly expand enough, the remaining few drops will evaporate anyways...

but there's two things you cannot have - a positive angle back towards the house or a stuck vacuum breaker vent...

In regular use a FF valves vacuum breaker vent is in it's "open" position 99.9 % of the time - only get's closed when your watering the garden or washing your car, now add a swamp cooler and a second valve and it stays shut for about 75% of the time - and when it's supposed to return and open from the super light duty spring pressure - it don't want to...

mystery solved...

vpt
01-05-2014, 10:29 AM
Andy they really don't - that takes care of itself as there's enough angle just in a level pipe to allow proper drainage so there is no way any threatening amount of water could possibly expand enough, the remaining few drops will evaporate anyways...

but there's two things you cannot have - a positive angle back towards the house or a stuck vacuum breaker vent...

Measuring and making sure there is a sight angle outward will ensure NO angle inward. ;)

We don't have any vacuum breakers? What are those for?

MotorradMike
01-05-2014, 10:37 AM
And man will THAT make a big mess..... down the driveway, and down the hill, freezing everyone's tires to the road..... not to mention the ice buildup at the faucet.... Yowza.. Don't GO there.....

You just need to let the faucet drip.

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 10:38 AM
Look at post #15,

12 years of trouble free operation ensures I have a proper draining angle even if level - hook up the swamper and everything changes...

mikem
01-05-2014, 10:39 AM
Jerry:

You sound like a good neighbor!

Mike

vpt
01-05-2014, 10:51 AM
Look at post #15,

12 years of trouble free operation ensures I have a proper draining angle even if level - hook up the swamper and everything changes...


Maybe I did see those before. We have mostly just strait frost free valves with no vacuum breaker on them. Maybe because they are to old to have the fancy vacuum thingy on them.

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 10:54 AM
I will have to see what kind I have for sure - too damn cold out there right now, but im thinking even though they don't have the external mount on top does not mean they don't have a internal valve and a hollow shaft like also shown in the diagram...

loose nut
01-05-2014, 11:04 AM
I am in south Texas, near the Gulf Coast and I have the insulated covers for my outdoor spigots.


What are they for, do they keep the heat out so the water doesn't boil off.:D

Willy
01-05-2014, 11:06 AM
Jerry:

You sound like a good neighbor!

Mike

Ditto!
Never fails, one goes to great lengths so as not to have issue with his own house only to find out he's running all over the neighborhood dealing with everyone else's lack of planning.:)

The only idiocy I see though is relying on the advice from a minimum wage sales clerk at a big box store as if this individual was a tradesman.
In my experience with the Home Depot, Lowes, etc. clerks is that they barely have a grasp of what's in the store, never mind how to actually use any of the products.

Well established mom & pop hardware stores are generally much better in this regard as their staff has usually been there for years, and don't get short shifted so that the employer doesn't have to pay for benefits and the like.
Like most things in life, you get what you pay for.

EddyCurr
01-05-2014, 11:13 AM
Back to mention using a trouble light as a fixture to hold an incandescent close to
a faucet, but I see that johnl already spoken about this in #18.

So I will just add to be conservative about the bulb wattage - remember that the
metal shield gets pretty hot with a 60W and really hot with a 100W. IMO, those
bulbs are beyond what's called for and have potential for earning a Darwin Award
nomination - an appliance bulb (fridge/stove) at 25W would work and there are
already several right there in use in your home to be borrowed temporarily.

Another location to be wary of pipe freezing is the partion wall separating an
attached garage from the home. It is common for the laundry to be just inside
the man door to the garage, so pipes can be in the p-wall. If for some reason,
an outside door to the garage is left open, temperature and insufficient insulation
in the partition wall have led to pipes freezing there.

Built in a time before the innovation of exterior faucets where the valve is recessed
well within the building interior, my home requires steps to be taken each autumn
to ensure that an interior valve to the faucets is turned off and the lines beyond
drained. Underground sprinkler systems need attention, too - lines are shut off
and then compressed air is applied through each of the distribution legs several
times. Blowing the system is recommended even if/when it hasn't been used in
season to ensure accumulations of rain and condensation do not cause damage.
(Plumbing in RV's and seasonal holiday homes need attention, likewise.)

jhe.1973, by chance was the heat tape you describe the kind where elements are
imbedded in a thin plastic film? The heat cable I wrote about has a fairly robust
and water-resistant insulation, the portion with the element has more than a passing
resemblance to the black two-conductor 'zip cord wire' used for the power cord of
an electric kettle. Although they are intended to be wrapped externally around pipe
I have, ahem, first-hand knowledge of them being inserted into downspouts of
eavestrough for the purpose of preventing freeze/bust when daytime melt would
freeze as evening came on. NOT an approved application, but these heat cables
have operated in such an environment for numerous seasons without apparent
trouble.

Regarding vpt's remark about if it didn't break initially upon freezing, there's no need
to worry. I recommend verifying this assumption. Localized, incomplete freezing
at the extremity might block flow without breaking components. More thorough
freezing when lower temperatures overcome radiated/conducted heat from within
the building threatens to do real damage.

About a hot water line being more susceptible to freezing than a cold line. I'll
propose that this may have something in common with the phenomenon of boiled
water freezing faster than room temp tap water when used for ice rink crack repair.
Currently refered to as the Mpemba Effect.

PSTechPaul. That there is a hardy lifestyle.

.

EddyCurr
01-05-2014, 11:38 AM
"... water has great dissipation qualities ..."If dissipation is used as a term for thermal conductivity, I will
offer that while water conducts thermally, it is not particularly
good at this.

Thermal Conductivity at 25C


Copper: ..... 401.00
Concrete: ..... 0.40 - 0.70 (medium)
Glass: .......... 1.05
Steel: ......... 54.00 (carbon)
Water: ....... 0.58

.

jhe.1973
01-05-2014, 11:44 AM
jhe.1973, by chance was the heat tape you describe the kind where elements are
imbedded in a thin plastic film? The heat cable I wrote about has a fairly robust
and water-resistant insulation, the portion with the element has more than a passing
resemblance to the black two-conductor 'zip cord wire' used for the power cord of
an electric kettle.

.

Its been 30+ years since the experience I described but what I remember is the heat tape was yellow & flat resembling the old time TV antenna wire in cross section. I think the yellow jacket was covered w/a thin clear plastic film.

I always thought that the electricity (110V) leaked across the moisture present around the heat tape plug and traveled across the surface of the wet insulation to the steel water pipe & ground. IIRC I mentioned this situation to either an electrician or plumber I knew at the time and was told of his similar experience.

In case the comment that the low amperage heat tape could never start a fire was an answer to my situation, electric arcing is around 11,000 degrees IIRC. The available amperage is what determines the BTU of the arc not the temperature. So any low amperage circuit has the potential to ignite flammable material in the right situation.

Internal combustion spark plugs are extremely low amperage devices but they ignite fuel/air under pressure pretty well.

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 11:53 AM
Good point - should not have used the word "great" and dissipation is a different way of looking at it (which I do allot of lol) and a poor choice of words also.

still - water does transfer heat ok - and depending on the layout there can be "thermal currents" inside the pipe itself that aid in this effect, then given the fact that in the types of situations were talking about it's either surrounded by copper or steel and there is the factor of one helping out the other, and if you actually have a plastic line leading all the way up to your outside spigot you probably have an entirely different set of problems along with the "more apt to freeze" one - like twisting the line off inside the house when you go to open or close your valve...

EddyCurr
01-05-2014, 12:03 PM
I always thought that the electricity (110V) leaked across the moisture
present around the heat tape plug and traveled across the surface of
the wet insulation to the steel water pipe & ground. IIRC I mentioned
this situation to either an electrician or plumber I knew at the time and
was told of his similar experience.Sounds plausible.

In such a case, I believe the full potential of the wall outlet is at play,
not just the reduced amperage output for the heat tape element. The
short to ground is occuring externally at the plug, not after whatever
resistance is built into the device for the element.

.

EddyCurr
01-05-2014, 12:14 PM
... and dissipation is a different way of looking at it ...Only confirmed the usage to be sure we were on the same page before mentioning
water's relative TC, sorry if this came across as being picky or pedantic.

.

vpt
01-05-2014, 12:16 PM
A guy could just drain all the pipes for the cold spell.

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 12:27 PM
Not at all Eddy and in fact I try to use this place to learn better ways of getting my point across as im a "self taught hillbilly" and it shows sometimes, :p thermal conductivity is a far better word choice and avoids confusion.

Dissipation is OK I guess since cold is the norm and heat travels in that direction, therefor the term is adequate I guess, but TC is a much better choice.

It's not the cold creeping in, it's the heat going out...

EddyCurr
01-05-2014, 12:31 PM
A guy could drain ...

That's a back-up plan I keep in mind in the event of a power outage.

If a freeze-up seems imminent, I will not hesitate to shut the main and
drain the house lines.

.

lakeside53
01-05-2014, 12:36 PM
In Western WA where I live it gets down to zero occasionally, 10F every year for a few days, and 20F often. Over the 25 years in this house; early I added frost-free for the external faucets and frost-free hydrants in some locations.

The runs that are in the non-insulated garage walls failed often... I replaced those with an underground feed and frost-free hydrant; same in the non-heated barn. Two exterior walls of the house are long runs and the pipe to the the frost-free faucets froze/broke twice. I added valves back in the crawl space - shut them of in the fall and open the faucets. They drain out. No problems for the last 15 years.

EddyCurr
01-05-2014, 12:42 PM
At this writing, it is the equivalent of -36F (-21F + 6 mph wind chill).
And the seasonal cold spell isn't due for another couple of weeks.

I'm ok with it. I just wish the dog would learn to use the indoor plumbing
instead of insisting on being walked 5 - 6 times daily.

.

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 12:46 PM
Dang that's cold - we only had about 5 or 10 above zero last night and I been whining about that,,,

What's the TC of brass? might come in handy when using the "witches tit in a brass bra" description ------ cuz that thar's what you got right now...

Optics Curmudgeon
01-05-2014, 12:57 PM
Good point - should not have used the word "great" and dissipation is a different way of looking at it (which I do allot of lol) and a poor choice of words also.

still - water does transfer heat ok - and depending on the layout there can be "thermal currents" inside the pipe itself that aid in this effect, then given the fact that in the types of situations were talking about it's either surrounded by copper or steel and there is the factor of one helping out the other, and if you actually have a plastic line leading all the way up to your outside spigot you probably have an entirely different set of problems along with the "more apt to freeze" one - like twisting the line off inside the house when you go to open or close your valve...

I think you might be thinking about "specific heat", the amount of heat it takes to raise the temperature of a substance one degree C. Water has a higher specific heat than metals.

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 01:05 PM
Hmmm - I would call that more of a "thermal mass" description - no actually more so "thermal density" as mass would indicate the entire area of the substance and not isolate the qualities of the substance itself --- ?

I think it would be easy to assume that Thermal density and Thermal conductivity go hand in hand due to many of the things we look at exhibiting this behavior - like styrofoam almost having neither -

and you would think due to its density that liquid mercury would also have great thermal conductivity - but it doesn't - it's actually lower than most metals.

vpt
01-05-2014, 01:11 PM
I also think I forgot to put antifreeze in the camper this year... This spring is gonna be a fun one!

PStechPaul
01-05-2014, 01:44 PM
A couple of points while logging on to the woodstove and enjoying the 40F thaw ahead of the next Big Chill:

Heat tapes should be protected by a GFCI, which will eliminate the problem of insulation breakdown and arcing and enough power to ignite nearby wood. Yeah, those 150 year old timbers are mighty dry!

I had a hot water heater in my first house and I moved out in 1984 supposedly on a temporary basis, to my mother's house, and wound up staying through my purchase of the second house, where I am now living, in 1989. Most of the plumbing had been drained, but when I moved back in 1999 I decided to get rid of the old HWH and I was surprised that it was so heavy. It was in fact still full of water and after 15 years or so it had still not been damaged by freezing.

The vacuum breaker seems to be a relatively recent code requirement, although I first heard of them around 1972 when I was a maintenance assistant at an educational institution called Koinonia. The houses I lived in before moving here were built in the 50s and 60s and did not have these. It seems rather unlikely that the house plumbing could create a vacuum that would suck water back from a hose, but it must happen enough to make the backflow preventers a code requirement. When I get frustrated with my plumbing system I yell, "You suck!", and perhaps that is accurate. :D

lakeside53
01-05-2014, 01:57 PM
Vac-breaking frost free.

Ever had to change one out because the vac breaker has failed? Good luck without some interior wall removal in many cases (length means they are often aligned with an adjacent wall). It should be illegal to install them if they or that part can't be replaced individually, and most here cannot. Many are threaded on the end but they can't be unthreaded without breaking the internal piping, and you are never sure if you have a good seal.

They have been code here for 10-12 years. PITA.. can even buy the others. But.. pop off the plastic part (if it hasn't already come off) , and solder on a brass disk.. back to the original design. has to do that for a neighbor with one in a brick wall...

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 02:14 PM
It seems rather unlikely that the house plumbing could create a vacuum that would suck water back from a hose, but it must happen enough to make the backflow preventers a code requirement. :D


I don't believe that's what the initial purpose is for - it does not suck water back in - it just prevents it from leaving,

it's basically to allow air into the far end so that the water can then drain out, without this effect you run the risk of the water just sitting there due to it forming a vacuum behind it - so it will not allow it to drain properly - that's with or without a hose connected to the spigot , but now that that point is brought up its never good practice to leave your hose connected in the winter, for the same reason except much more chance of the water never draining down from the house even though it's so much lower,,, forms a vacuum on the house side and it won't allow it to move down hill... now throw in 25 ft of hose that "locks" the air from getting in and your doomed for sure...


the same anti-drain principle can be seen in humming bird feeders or gerbil water jugs to where the water level is actually way way above the open drain yet it will stay there until the pet removes a few droplets at the bottom and allows air in to get to the top,,, that's water level that's many inches higher and not even a spigot but an open pipe,,, that's why I was telling Andy that you can freeze even with a radical negative angle if no air gets introduced into the system to relieve the suction behind the water...

Iv got one FF valve to fix come spring but im not going to let this happen again, going to make sure they drain... iv got ridged pipe in the basement and mine "should" unscrew no prob...

J Tiers
01-05-2014, 02:15 PM
I have never seen an issue with the frost-free in terms of replacement.... but you have to leave an access hole to service them. I hate people who put in stuff like that which will need to be replaced, and do not provide any way to do it short of tearing out walls.

At the moment, we have white-out conditions, but it is still above 10F. Only about 6" on the ground so far, far less than the 24" we once got overnight in 1982.

I shoveled at 8AM, but now, at 1PM you can't tell I did it. City plowed our street at 7AM, so now they can say they did. There may have been as much as a half inch down when they plowed....

It's drifting, so some faucets may get insulated by snow.

vpt
01-05-2014, 02:33 PM
We HATE those backflow preventers... All they have done is cause problems for us and leaks... I flippin hate the things!

TRX
01-05-2014, 03:48 PM
A novelty, really. I did say the DEEP South.

I'm in Arkansas. It's supposed to be 10 tonight, high of 18 tomorrow, 9 tomorrow night.

Of course, in midsummer it will be 115+.

rickyb
01-05-2014, 08:18 PM
[QUOTE=J Tiers;895753]It's going to be reasonably cold here for a few days, we may have a high of -1F, and lows at -10 or so, which is rare for us.

So a neighbor called me to find out what should be done to deal with outside faucets. The non-"frost proof" type, and of course her shutoff valves do not work (when do they ever when you need them?).

She had been to the big box store, and was told to put pipe insulation around the pipes INSIDE THE HOUSE, so she bought some. Now, this is crazy, of course..... it might reduce the heating bill, but it may result in freezing the faucets. It's the heat from inside the house that will protect the faucets, and insulation prevents that from getting into the pipes.

Well, 6 pages of responses and no one seems to have a clue as to why pipes burst. First of all, ice does not break pipes, water pressure does. I live in michigan an never shutoff or insulate my outside faucets. My dad never did either going back to the 40s. It is not necessary. The faucet can freeze all it wants and nothing is going to happen.

Here is how it works. The faucet outside freezes as does the water in the pipe adjacent to it in the wall. The ice expands into the pipe pushing the water next to it back further into the house. Max pressure is the normal house water pressure of about 60 psi. No harm done.

Now as Boomer and others have experienced, if you do something to trap the water there is a problem. Shut off the interior valve and don't drain the faucet, the ice expands into the pipe as before but can't push the water back easily as the internal valve is blocking it. The ice will keep expanding and increasing the water pressure in that small section of pipe. The water pressure will keep increasing, expanding the pipe until equilibrium is reached or the pipe bursts.

So, it is water pressure not ice that actually does the damage. Any where there is trapped water and ice there is a problem. No trapped water, no problem.

vpt
01-05-2014, 08:20 PM
^ that a joke?

JoeLee
01-05-2014, 08:30 PM
You have to remember that the people that work in these big box stores have no where near the same level of intelligence that most of us have here on this forum. I went looking for a faucet seat reamer once and the guy said , Oh sure right here... he comes back with a long tapered pipe reamer with a T handle. He had no clue as to what I was referring to. The same thing happened when I went to the plumbing supply store. Now you would think they would know, the guy brings me the same thing. Todays plumbers are all PVC plumbers. They don't know how to fix anything, only how to glue things together.

JL................

rickyb
01-05-2014, 08:33 PM
Doesn't fit your paradym? Do some research, it is not a joke.

kendall
01-05-2014, 08:34 PM
^ that a joke?

Not sure, as long as the ice has somewhere to go it will 'push' along a pipe OK, but when it's enclosed and can't go anywhere I heard it's capable of producing 50,000 psi.
If your water water supply can hold that pressure, do not use the shower.

vpt
01-05-2014, 08:49 PM
Not sure, as long as the ice has somewhere to go it will 'push' along a pipe OK, but when it's enclosed and can't go anywhere I heard it's capable of producing 50,000 psi.
If your water water supply can hold that pressure, do not use the shower.



In water pipes ice always has someplace to go if that is the case. Either in towards the supply/house which would never build pressure because of a little ice in the pipe. Or out of the faucet to outside. The is nothing stopping it in either direction.

If also the case why when my outboard motor gas tank split from the ice inside of it did it continue to grow even though all the "water pressure" was released?

J Tiers
01-05-2014, 08:50 PM
[QUOTE=J Tiers;895753]..................
Well, 6 pages of responses and no one seems to have a clue as to why pipes burst. First of all, ice does not break pipes, water pressure does. I live in michigan an never shutoff or insulate my outside faucets. My dad never did either going back to the 40s. It is not necessary. The faucet can freeze all it wants and nothing is going to happen.
...............

Must be a joke....

I have SEEN the effect of ice...... water, schmatter

As water freezes, it expands. It also does not flow worth a hoot when frozen. freeze water in a plastic bottle... it will swell. Freeze it in a glass bottle and it will shatter the bottle.

So if you get ice inside of a complex shape like a faucet, it may be unable to expand anywhere as it freezes, and something will have to give. Freeze it in a section of pope between two elbows, and it can push a soldered joint apart....

Now, often the damage is done while there still is some unfrozen water present, since as soon as the water all freezes, the expansion is over with... If it didn't burst or push apart a joint already when the last bit freezes, it isn't going to.

But that is not quite the same thing as saying what you did about water pressure.... it is just saying that expansion is only going on while freezing is still going on. "Freezing" stops when everything is frozen.

A.K. Boomer
01-05-2014, 09:21 PM
[QUOTE=rickyb;895987]

Must be a joke....

I have SEEN the effect of ice...... water, schmatter

As water freezes, it expands. It also does not flow worth a hoot when frozen. freeze water in a plastic bottle... it will swell. Freeze it in a glass bottle and it will shatter the bottle.

So if you get ice inside of a complex shape like a faucet, it may be unable to expand anywhere as it freezes, and something will have to give. Freeze it in a section of pope between two elbows, and it can push a soldered joint apart....

Now, often the damage is done while there still is some unfrozen water present, since as soon as the water all freezes, the expansion is over with... If it didn't burst or push apart a joint already when the last bit freezes, it isn't going to.

But that is not quite the same thing as saying what you did about water pressure.... it is just saying that expansion is only going on while freezing is still going on. "Freezing" stops when everything is frozen.


there is some truth to what he's saying - but you better have a pretty good understanding of how it works, he's incorrect in saying it's the equivalent of water pressure - it's not, non-flowing water pressure is not biased to things like "pipe barnacles" or like JT just stated "boxed in elbows" and such,
pipe freezing is - and it will use this to grip and get grid locked onto in the process - then guess where your so called "water pressure" goes? either to the pipes walls that have to except 10 fold or to disconnecting the pipe at a joint from the "popsicle effect" due to lateral expansion and the design not allowing for it,,,

not all freezing pipes have the fortunate ability to be basically designed like a concave plastic ice tray with an "easy way out" every time...

If you don't have frost free and live in michigan and do not have internal shut offs and drain your pipes every year and still never have any water pipes breaking it's not the "method" that your using as much as who your plumber was and maybe even your house designer that allowed him to plumb the way he did...

vpt
01-05-2014, 09:46 PM
Fill a pail with water and leave it outside, even though the top is open it can split the sides when it freezes.

kendall
01-05-2014, 09:51 PM
In water pipes ice always has someplace to go if that is the case. Either in towards the supply/house which would never build pressure because of a little ice in the pipe. Or out of the faucet to outside. The is nothing stopping it in either direction.

If also the case why when my outboard motor gas tank split from the ice inside of it did it continue to grow even though all the "water pressure" was released?

exactly

Ice seldom does what you 'know' it will do, I have seen bottles of pop freeze solid and do nothing more than push the cap off and lift it on 'pop towers', other bottles in the same case that were shattered, and nothing more than a mosaic held together by ice. I've had open pipes split wide open, while the one beside it just extruded a column of ice, same thing in the driveway of my old house, I had two sections of 4 inch PVC so I could hook an awning over the the garage door, place posts in the pvc holes and have shade while working in the driveway, sometimes they'd split, other times they'd just be raised ice bumps, and sometimes the whole sleeve would ride up.
I have also picked up a bottle of water, been surprised it wasn't frozen solid, shake it and have it almost instantly turn to ice.

You just do not know what water will do on it's way to becoming ice.

Personal theory is that everything depends on how fast it freezes and the conditions around it. A slow freeze likely means no damage because expansion is slow enough it can push water, fast freeze, ice forms faster than water can move, so pipes split

Edited because I hit send by accident.

PStechPaul
01-05-2014, 10:32 PM
Water has an interesting phase diagram, and there are many types of ice. At a sufficiently high pressure, water remains liquid to as low as -15C. I found that when my pipes froze, I turned on the faucet and a lot of water came out, but then stopped as the water pressure dropped and the remaining water turned to solid ice. Then a small trickle started, and finally it opened up and flowed again. 1 Atmosphere is 14.7 PSI and the point of liquid water at -15C is about 2 kbar or 29,000 PSI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_(unit) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_(unit))

Here is information on burst pressure for pipes. A 3/4" OD pipe with 0.06" wall thickness and 30,000 PSI yield strength has a bursting pressure of about 4800 PSI (but the website is for stainless steel):
http://www.rathgibson.com/technical_info/pressure_data/burst_pressure.aspx

http://icestructure.com/2011/ice-water-phase-diagram/

http://icestructure.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Ice_water_phase_diagram.png

J Tiers
01-05-2014, 10:55 PM
Part of the issue is what "order" things freeze in.

if an immovable plug of ice develops in one part of the vessel, then the rest of the freezing will have it's "push" based on that as it expands. It is certainly possible that the ultimate breakage point may be at a point where there is still liquid water. If the "plug" prevents water from flowing away from the pressure, the break may be at the water.

But for the case of the pop bottle freezing that lifts off the cap, there are no "icicles". So the exiting material is definitely ice.

If the thin part of the bottle freezes first, and the glass is smooth and either straight or widening slightly, it may just push up the frozen bit and relieve the pressure by pushing off the cap and extruding. If the ice in the thin part "catches" on something and becomes immovable, maybe it breaks the bottle.

Then also, the ice does not form all at once.... as it freezes in toward the center, it may conform to the shape and "flow" slightly before all the crystals interlock into one solid piece.

Optics Curmudgeon
01-05-2014, 11:14 PM
Unfortunately for those that crave order and predictability, there are too many different situations involved to make a single conclusion on cause, other than to say pipes freeze, then burst. And that the salesperson was completely wrong and would likely have led the poor customer to disaster. I don't talk to employees at these places, I know what I need, go straight for it and get out. Seeing the display table saw with the blade in backward tells me all I need to know about who works there.

Guido
01-05-2014, 11:53 PM
Always heard that only ice exhibited instantaneous melting when loaded/compressed. Reason ice skates work so well?

Doozer
01-06-2014, 08:48 AM
It is not the ice that breaks the pipes,
it is the fact that ice attracts cosmic radiation
which gets through the ozone layer, and is all
around us. This cosmic radiation is generally
lighter than air. But it is attracted to ice because
of the polar nature of the ice molecule structure.
Cosmic radiation tends to corode copper and steel,
this is why pipes freeze and crack. Look what the
cosmic radiation does to cars when ice freezes on
them. We get lots of cosmic radiation here in
Buffalo in the winter time. That is why we have
to buy new cars every 5 years. The cars rust from
the cosmic radiation, and our cars soon have holes
in them, the frames crack to. Years ago they used
to use lead pipes, which are immune to cosmic
radiation. They new more about this stuff back them.
Too bad this knowledge gets lost over the generations.

--Doozer

WhatTheFlux!
01-06-2014, 08:54 AM
It is not the ice that breaks the pipes,
it is the fact that ice attracts cosmic radiation
which gets through the ozone layer, and is all
around us. This cosmic radiation is generally
lighter than air. But it is attracted to ice because
of the polar nature of the ice molecule structure.
Cosmic radiation tends to corode copper and steel,
this is why pipes freeze and crack. Look what the
cosmic radiation does to cars when ice freezes on
them. We get lots of cosmic radiation here in
Buffalo in the winter time. That is why we have
to buy new cars every 5 years. The cars rust from
the cosmic radiation, and our cars soon have holes
in them, the frames crack to. Years ago they used
to use lead pipes, which are immune to cosmic
radiation. They new more about this stuff back them.
Too bad this knowledge gets lost over the generations.

--Doozer

I am calling you out as a teller of lies an a fraud. Buffalo only installed running water LAST YEAR, it's been bucket brigade and hand-drawn wells since 1537. As for cars, ain't no one around her afford no cars, this is strictly walkn' bussn' town. We gots the BEST public transit system in the world here. Our subway goes both NORTH and SOUTH. Only the rich people over on Elmwood and Delaware own cars and they ain't seen outside of their habitat.

A.K. Boomer
01-06-2014, 09:35 AM
Unfortunately for those that crave order and predictability, there are too many different situations involved to make a single conclusion on cause, other than to say pipes freeze, then burst. And that the salesperson was completely wrong and would likely have led the poor customer to disaster.

I agree without knowing the situation it's difficult to come to the proper conclusion - with that being said the salesperson could very well have been correct if the person was living in a trailer with un-insulated skirting,,,


I don't talk to employees at these places, I know what I need, go straight for it and get out. Seeing the display table saw with the blade in backward tells me all I need to know about who works there.


and for all we know employee's are required to put blades on backwards in case anybody gets ahold of a loose battery pack - or power cord - could not only be "store policy" but if it's not maybe it should be as it would be a pretty wise move...

also - installing a standard blade on backwards is a good way to cut vinyl siding or other brittle plastics if you don't have the proper blade and are out in the field 30 miles from a hardware store :p

ironmonger
01-06-2014, 09:49 AM
It's going to be reasonably cold here for a few days, we may have a high of -1F, and lows at -10 or so, which is rare for us.

So a neighbor called me to find out what should be done to deal with outside faucets. The non-"frost proof" type, and of course her shutoff valves do not work (when do they ever when you need them?).
.

If the pipe has frozen and broken, you will need a plumber or someone with the equivalent skills.

As far as the valves working 'when you need them'... valves are mechanical, they need to be operated on a regular basis. This applies to globe valves, gate valves or ball valves. Occasionally the packings need to be lubricated or replaced, new washers need to be installed or sometimes the entire valve needs to be replaced. The replacing part is why I always recommend 3 piece ball valves... they can be replaced in minutes with nothing more than a small box wrench.

There is a method that needs to be used when turning off a neglected valve to prevent damage to the valve. You need to establish flow though the valve and loosen the packing nut to make what follow easier, and them turn the valve to close it. When you feel a crunchy point, stop and reverse the travel turning till full open and then attempt to close it again. It make take a number of tries, but NEVER apply a wrench to the handle, you will then need my professional services. This repeated opening and closing loosens the crud that built up on the valve seat and flushes it out. Thats why it's best to have the water flowing. It also goes without saying that this falls into the area of preventive maintenance... much easier to do when it's warm out in the case of the hose bibb.

As a plumber, I'm surprised at how seldom things actually fail, our basic systems are reliable, but personally I gave up telling folks what they need to do to prevent problems with the plumbing systems. To often it was viewed as 'They just want to sell me something'. I'm telling them what I know to be true, but if you ignore my freely given and honest advise thats not my problem. You then need to find a plumber you can trust. In our case that trust would have been justified with one visit. There are really honest contractors in the world. If you can't do the work yourself, I truly hope that you find one in your area. A plumbing company could not possibly survive on little bites taken out of consumers residential projects, and stay away form yellow page ads, ask friends...

In my past life I was a plumbing field superintendent, and as such spent my mornings in the office. I would field calls from customers and offer not only free advise, but tell them how to repair anything they cared to undertake.... if they called us to repair their attempt, there was never any question about the bill... Our feeling was that since plumbing repairs by a professional are expensive, a little helping hand for the small projects was an investment in future relationships for bigger projects.

I told folks what they need to do to prevent damage and to have a trouble free relationship with the mechanical systems in their home. If they choose to ignore advise thinking I'm tying to make money off them so be it.

All the insulation and heat tracing can't make up for a bad installation.

If the valve doesn't work you need to fix it. An installation with an internal stop and waste valve needs to have the pipe sloped to the inside where you can drain it if you remember in time. The hose bibb penetration needs to be sealed to prevent air infiltration around the pipe.

If the line has frozen you better have a plan in place to deal with it when it thaws. If it is copper, go the the 'big box store' and buy a shark bite cap of the correct size. If you have steel pipe buy a plug and cap, cut the pipe near a fitting and seal the supply line. Never did much work with PEX, but I've been told it can withstand freezing more often than not... still not a good idea to test this ability...

If all this is located in a crawl space, see line one...

If you didn't shut the water off yet refer to line one...


paul

cameron
01-06-2014, 11:00 AM
All kinds of people work in big box stores.

Some have experience and know what they're talking about.
Some have experience and don't know what they're talking about.
Some don't have experience and know what they're talking about.
Some don't have experience and don't know what they're talking about.

Same as this forum.

J Tiers
01-06-2014, 11:19 AM
IronM...

Good advice.

It's s little less good when, as with another neighbor, the valve is visible, as a ball of blue-green corrosion. Then it's best to replace it. Probably the gland hasn't a good stem surface to seal against.

As for the original neighbor, it's irritating that the valve doesn't close, since I personally installed it many years ago, and it worked fine then.... probably has never been moved since. She had some yokel try to fix the outside faucet, and he broke it off, which was no more than I expected. I put in the shut-off then.

For some reason, plumbers, or at least builders, don't ever want to put in shutoffs. If they do put one in, they put in the cheapest type, the kind that don't work well even when new.

The push-on caps I don't particularly like, but if the line is copper, and you can't stop the water flow completely for some reason, they would be better than trying to solder a cap on... that's not likely to work....

I went out and got a new supply of caps, plugs, and short nipples just in case I have to do any more of that quick fix stuff. Boss doesn't want anyone to come in today, so I guess I'm on call for that sort of stuff locally.

krutch
01-09-2014, 01:41 PM
Hardware store!??? I don't think there are any of those left. Just "if we don't have it, you don't need it" stores now.
Those big stores won't pay enough to keep any one with knowledge around. Mostly blank stares to questions asked about many items not popularly sold.
The inventory is maintained by computer and if a product does not sell it is dropped.
It is usually a waste of for me to visit one of these "stores" as whatever I am looking for won't be stocked or will be the opposite "hand" of what I need.
The last real hardware store I remember was 14th street in Pekin Ill. In it you could find almost any item ever wanted. They had real anvils, raw metals, bulk bolts etc., even a ships' bell! Last time I was in Pekin even the building was gone!
Progress, someone says.