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JoeFin
01-06-2014, 10:24 AM
Hi - sorry I haven't been posting for a long time.

1 Big Problem with Home Shops is the space for the shop. Not all of us have 5 or 10 acre Ranchetts we can plop a 40'x25' metal building down on. In fact for some of us a full sized 2 car garage would be an improvement. In my case it was more like a 1 1/2 car garage I had to share with the Washing machine, Dryer, and Freezer.

Of course every time some one wanted to bring some thing in from the elements they brought it in and plopped it down in the middle of my shop space. This led to HUGE pent up resentments and basically was discouraging me from doing any thing in my shop.

Who wants to spend a couple hours cleaning up everyone else's crap in order to not have to trip over peoples crap when working with my toys. It just sucks !!

You might remember when I posted this picture of my wife helping set the steel for a pad I was going to erect a small barn on

You might remember this picture in a thread I tittled "Do you think she is a keeper"


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/New-Shop/foundation006.jpg

Hell Ya she is a keeper - there she is out there helping me tie steel for the pad for my little barn

Well sure enough right about the time I was just finishing up putting a coat of paint on the building the County Building Inspector shows up and I ain't got no permit. He cited me for any thing and every thing he could find on my property - what a Dick

Eventually I pulled a permit $950 with penalties which I guess ain't so bad. But then the economy tanked and I had to hit the road for 2 years to keep working and ultimately not loose my home. 2 yrs later we revised the plans to attach the addition on to the existing garage and pay another $250 in permit fees.

But after 2 weeks they issued a permit for the revised plans - boy was the Building Department Manager pissed. He asked me why I was attaching it to the existing structure and I tell him "Well - It was your guy's idea"

JoeFin
01-06-2014, 11:01 AM
Well the Biggest Gig was the barn was too close to the property line and the attached structure would have to be 5' off the property line. So here is my son helping me saw cut and hammer out the footing walls from the existing pad we had poured

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/NewShop-7-1-13003_zps843bee52.jpg

Ya - I know - wearing tennis shoes while operating a Jack Hammer is not the best way to go about it. But he is no stranger to excavation and heavy equipment.

I then had the footing wall dug out and set the forms for a Stem Wall 6" above the slab

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/New-Shop/NewShop016_zps06fc2178.jpg

and them commenced to framing my 15'x24' addition

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/New-Shop/NewShop9-22-13007_zps64fbc649.jpg

Being in my 50s my eye sight ain't what it used to be. In fact I've become real picky about the lighting in my shop. Ain't nothing I hate worse then taking a measurement on a part chucked up in the lathe and having to walk over towards the tool bench so I can read the mics.

So in the new addition I boxed in 3ea 4 tube 8' fluorescent fixtures. The idea is to give me about 80 ftc of direct light and limit the amount of indirect (reflected) light from outside of the work envelope. That and to eliminate the glare on my glasses too


Here is a pic showing the light casting down from the lights in the shop

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/New-Shop/IMG_1571_zps9fddb28c.jpg

Don't know if you can make it out - but on the right side of the pic you can see the air lines I plumbed in with 1/2" black pipe. Eventually I'll be placing the air compressor outside in a dog house to cut down on the noise.

Between the air compressor, the CNC cutting parts, and the RPC whirling round, some times I would come out of my shop with my ears ringing. Hopefully I'll be able to cut down on a lot of that noise level

JoeFin
01-06-2014, 11:27 AM
Well anyway - while I'm at it I thought a general Up Grade to the existing garage electrical would be in order. Never did like the idea of pulling the circuits for the shop All the Way across the living space and then into the shop. Besides the Large In-Rush from motor loads against the V drop from long runs all the way across the living space. It just wasn't worth risking the safety of my family.

So I piped 1 1/2" EMT Conduit to the 200 amp Meter Main and set a new 100 amp sub panel feed with #2 Copper in the existing garage

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/New-Shop/IMG_1508_zpse59aef94.jpg


Pulled all the existing garage circuits I had run off the Meter Main and landed them in the new sub panel as well. So far I'm not getting the Voltage Sags (dimming) I was before.

Ultimately the goal is to place all the Machine Tools along the outside wall and put all my tooling/work benches along the other side to achieve an unimpeded clear path from one end to the other. Which well be 40' long once the Demo on the back wall is complete

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/NewShop9-22-13013_zpsdc7f1ccf.jpg

Kind of hard to make it out - but you can see the new framing just outside the back door to the right

Well that's it - what do you guys think

Toolguy
01-06-2014, 12:32 PM
Joe Fin-

I am happy for you and wish you all the best in your new space! You have certainly earned it!
Great looking shop too.

Gary Paine
01-06-2014, 12:53 PM
It appears you've done some careful planning, got a great start, and have able helpers. You're lucky. Will your big machines have to go in and out of the new space through the back door?
On the idea of benches and tooling across from the machines, I find that situation to cause a lot of accumulation of improperly protected tooling at the machines. It seems I am more interested in going on to the next tool than in returning the last one to it's proper place. I don't have that problem when it's place is within reach of my work.

J Tiers
01-06-2014, 12:55 PM
On the idea of benches and tooling across from the machines, I find that situation to cause a lot of accumulation of improperly protected tooling at the machines. It seems I am more interested in going on to the next tool than in returning the last one to it's proper place. I don't have that problem when it's place is within reach of my work.

ROLL AROUND TOOLBOX!

Or roll-around tooling table, at least.

doctor demo
01-06-2014, 12:59 PM
I think it is almost criminal that You made your grandfather do the footing work while You took the picture......oh wait ,that is You:D. I guess it is true what they say about the camera adding 10 years, or have I got that wrong:confused:


Steve:cool:

dian
01-06-2014, 01:08 PM
100 amp, 200 amp, you guys are crazy. whats the current price of copper? (we get 40 amp max, 3-phase though.)

JoeFin
01-06-2014, 01:16 PM
I think it is almost criminal that You made your grandfather do the footing work while You took the picture......oh wait ,that is You:D. I guess it is true what they say about the camera adding 10 years, or have I got that wrong:confused:


Steve:cool:


Hey Dude - Lay off the Geritol - your getting too giddy again

Doozer
01-06-2014, 01:24 PM
Why did you let the building inspector on your property??
Let him see what he can see while parked in the street.
Letting him come on your property is your fault.
If he asks what you are working on, say it was built before
you bought the house. Unless he has a court order, no need
to let him on your peoperty.

--Doozer

JoeFin
01-06-2014, 01:26 PM
On the idea of benches and tooling across from the machines, I find that situation to cause a lot of accumulation of improperly protected tooling at the machines. It seems I am more interested in going on to the next tool than in returning the last one to it's proper place. I don't have that problem when it's place is within reach of my work.

Good point - and I have been holding off on planning my work benches out too much before I have all the machines in their final resting place

Right now the plan is to move the CNC mill that takes up the bulk of the existing garage space to the new addition and swing the lathe that is up against the garage door to the wall where the CNC is now. Also the surface grinder that is where the opening to the new addition will be is also moving to the new addition.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/NewShop9-22-13013_zpsdc7f1ccf.jpg



This well give me enough space in the center of the garage to pull in a car or motorcycle should I need to

The Tooling bench which is to the left of the garage is on wheels but is intended to stay where it is.

I'll see if the wifey will autocad up the floor plan with contents and post it up here. I think I would like to get your guys input on the entire layout with work benches, cabinets, and shelving before I go any further. Nothing like the voice of experience in making an informed decision

JoeFin
01-06-2014, 01:32 PM
Why did you let the building inspector on your property??
Let him see what he can see while parked in the street.
Letting him come on your property is your fault.
If he asks what you are working on, say it was built before
you bought the house. Unless he has a court order, no need
to let him on your peoperty.

--Doozer

Wish that was the case

Kalifornia in all its infinite wisdom places quite a bit of power in these little Code Nazi's hands. He showed up while I was at work and flashed a badge on my wife. He was already writing out the citation based on what he saw from the street and "Goggle Earth" when she let him in the back yard. That's when he cited the pool deck and the gates for not having automatic closing devices to keep little children from the pool

Water under the bridge at this point as now should I go to sell the place nothing would be listed as non-code compliant

Doozer
01-06-2014, 01:39 PM
I hear ya.
I just hate government butting their nose
into people's personal buissiness.
Nice shop.


--Doozer

Guido
01-06-2014, 01:52 PM
Here' hoping ALL your neighbors are on your GOOD side.

--G

wierdscience
01-06-2014, 02:51 PM
Good to see somebody is making progress,building looks good.+1 on the clipboard nazis.

Stern
01-06-2014, 03:52 PM
Why did you let the building inspector on your property??
Let him see what he can see while parked in the street.
Letting him come on your property is your fault.
If he asks what you are working on, say it was built before
you bought the house. Unless he has a court order, no need
to let him on your peoperty.

--Doozer

Guess it depends on the area. If you do it here, he will leave, return 30 min later with a crew and cops, come as he pleases and inspect what he wants, and then FORCE you to fix anything he didnt like, REGARDLESS if it was there before.
You dont mess with the Building department of Fire marshals office here, turns out about as well as sticking your tongue on a downed life hydro line

boslab
01-06-2014, 03:55 PM
I really dont know much about what you in the US call code, its all mysterious to me!, we have a different system, i think, first we have to apply for whats called planning permission, if granted we then either just build it with whats called a building notice, or submit full plans to the building department, if a building notice or full plans then the inspector will call at each key point of the building, you basicaly ring them and tell them your ready to pour concrete or whatever, he calls, checks the depths etc and signs it off, fairly easy, i have found these guys very helpfull, when your building they call in regularly for a cupppa, make suggestions etc, tell you what the law requires, providing your not a complete arse they help!
Im building a house at the moment so i get a lot of contact, its brick and the weathers not nice to lay 30,000 bricks, and 3000 blocks, pissing down!
I liked the rebar job, the stuff they specify over here is about 3 times thicker, cutting and tieing a nightmare, also it has to be on concrete stands!
A nice looking shop, mines a pigsty!
Mark

sasquatch
01-06-2014, 04:38 PM
Nice bunch of pics joe and an interesting story that happens all too often with regulators.

Doozer
01-06-2014, 05:11 PM
I don't know about Canada,
but in the US we have freedoms.
The government still tries to take them away
unless we are fight to preserve them.
Being passive with athorities and letting them
do whatever they want? That is a police state.
Know your rights and have some backbone
to stand up for yourself.

--Doozer

cameron
01-06-2014, 05:19 PM
Yeah, really hard to understand some of the code requirements. If the neighbor kids fall in your pool and drown, it's their own fault, right?

kendall
01-06-2014, 05:24 PM
Guess it depends on the area. If you do it here, he will leave, return 30 min later with a crew and cops, come as he pleases and inspect what he wants, and then FORCE you to fix anything he didnt like, REGARDLESS if it was there before.
You dont mess with the Building department of Fire marshals office here, turns out about as well as sticking your tongue on a downed life hydro line

Here in Michigan, call yourself a farm and say it was for farm equipment storage.

What is real strange here.
Sometimes a house or garage is too close to the property line, or on a lot is to small by current codes to tear down and rebuild new in the same spot. So you have to get a rebuild permit, which lets you tear down everything but one wall. After you rebuild the other three sides and get inspected, you can knock down and rebuild the 4th side for a completely new house or garage.

mattthemuppet
01-06-2014, 05:28 PM
Yeah, really hard to understand some of the code requirements. If the neighbor kids fall in your pool and drown, it's their own fault, right?

not to get further off topic (nice shop Joe!), but I'm guessing that's a joke and a poor one at that? No matter who's fault it is, once that child is dead, that's it. No future, grieving parents and guilty homeowner. For the price of some fencing and child proof locks, why wouldn't you want to prevent that?

No building codes is what lead to a fertilizer factory and a school being 100s of yards from each other in Texas and we all know how great an idea that was.

Boucher
01-06-2014, 05:44 PM
Around here the permits are next weeks to-do list for the tax appraiser.

jhe.1973
01-06-2014, 06:21 PM
Good point - and I have been holding off on planning my work benches out too much before I have all the machines in their final resting place.......................................I think I would like to get your guys input on the entire layout with work benches, cabinets, and shelving before I go any further. Nothing like the voice of experience in making an informed decision

I have found making scale cutouts of each machine/shelving/cabinets etc. to be handier than using a CAD program (have 2 of them). I can move the cutouts around much quicker than typing commands and they require no electricity.

For each of the 8 buildings across 4 states that I have had my equipment in, all I have had to do is make a new floor outline.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g327/jhe-1973/Shop%20tricks/Floorplan2_zps72e0f622.jpg (http://s1096.photobucket.com/user/jhe-1973/media/Shop%20tricks/Floorplan2_zps72e0f622.jpg.html)

Anyway, several shops I have worked in were set up to have the raw material come in whatever door made the most loading sense. The cutting, welding, fab area was next. Then the grinding and the machining areas followed. This was to keep the material flowing in a more or less straight path from beginning to the end where the bench work was. This also helps keep the dirtiest work away from the more precision stuff.

I tried to follow this general idea in my planning. In the example above, the material comes in at the welding/fab area on the right just above the center of the building. The grinding area is to the left.

In the bottom section of the floor plan the bench work is at lowest right corner as far away from the grinding/fab work as possible.

You can see my more recent machinery finds 'cuz the cutouts are newer. :D Some of the older ones have been around over 40 years.

This is all at 1/2 inch to the foot on a piece of standard poster board (22 X 28 inches).

P.S. I thought I'd show something else I found helpful from a book about laying out offices:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g327/jhe-1973/Shop%20tricks/Floorplandetail_zps7966c88d.jpg (http://s1096.photobucket.com/user/jhe-1973/media/Shop%20tricks/Floorplandetail_zps7966c88d.jpg.html)

These were the minimum recommended dimensions.

cameron
01-06-2014, 06:32 PM
not to get further off topic (nice shop Joe!), but I'm guessing that's a joke and a poor one at that? No matter who's fault it is, once that child is dead, that's it. No future, grieving parents and guilty homeowner. For the price of some fencing and child proof locks, why wouldn't you want to prevent that?

No building codes is what lead to a fertilizer factory and a school being 100s of yards from each other in Texas and we all know how great an idea that was.

Not a joke. Sorry, I forgot to add the necessary disclaimer
for internet postings:

"CAUTION, THE FOREGOING POSTING MAY CONTAIN SARCASM"

We've had several pool drownings of small children in this area in the last year or so, at least one of them was due to the child wandering onto a neighbor's property.

loose nut
01-06-2014, 06:35 PM
but in the US we have freedoms.


Apparently you haven't been paying attention the last few years. "Dubya" took care of that.

tdkkart
01-06-2014, 06:53 PM
Why did you let the building inspector on your property??
Let him see what he can see while parked in the street.
Letting him come on your property is your fault.
If he asks what you are working on, say it was built before
you bought the house. Unless he has a court order, no need
to let him on your peoperty.--Doozer

Good luck with that.
This has been argued on almost every forum I've been on.
In most states the courts have given building inspectors the rights of some sort of gods to do whatever
the hell they want, including coming on your property without permission, and getting court orders to enter your property if you resist.

Calling yourself a farm doesn't work anymore either.
Here it used to be owning 35 acres made you a farm by default and you coudl do as you pleased.
Not any more, in order to call yourself a farm in the code department's eyes you have to derive a major portion of your income
from farming operations on your 35 acres of property. That one's been to court too.

doctor demo
01-06-2014, 07:11 PM
Yeah, really hard to understand some of the code requirements. If the neighbor kids fall in your pool and drown, it's their own fault, right?
It is a tough time for family and friends whenever or wherever someone drowns no matter "who's fault it is" child or adult , having said that the laws around here concerning pool safety are over the top crazy.
With all of the laws in place there are quite a few drownings every year any way, a half dozen or so by teens or young adults mostly in the rivers near by.
I guess the solution would be to fence off all the rivers and lakes and.........
People that have kids need to be responsible for their kids education and supervision and not blame/sue the neighbor when something happens.

Steve

cameron
01-06-2014, 07:20 PM
It is a tough time for family and friends whenever or wherever someone drowns no matter "who's fault it is" child or adult , having said that the laws around here concerning pool safety are over the top crazy.
With all of the laws in place there are quite a few drownings every year any way, a half dozen or so by teens or young adults mostly in the rivers near by.
I guess the solution would be to fence off all the rivers and lakes and.........
People that have kids need to be responsible for their kids education and supervision and not blame/sue the neighbor when something happens.

Steve

The solution to pool drownings is to fence off the rivers and lakes ?

John Stevenson
01-06-2014, 07:23 PM
You are lucky having a pool, we have to use the English Channel

JoeFin
01-06-2014, 07:44 PM
As far as the Code Nazis go - Lemons to Lemon Aid

We had locking hasp on our gates but the guy wasn't able to interpret the code very well. Its just a 4 ft Dough boy pool with a deck partially around it which I turned the back side of the deck into a 12' tall Grape Arbor. After going down to the county office and talking to some one more reasonable I found out I could just put a gate on the stairs going up to the pool.

I did have to Cross Brace the 4"x6" post cemented in 4' deep on 4' centers because the deck rose 4'6" above the ground - that I thought was ridiculous.

But it was also the guy at the counter who gave me the idea to attach the new shop to the existing garage - which makes the fees cheaper, and the electrical and plumbing easier.

It was also the guy at the counter who told me if my plans include knocking out the back wall they would want a separate permit with an engineer's stamp on it. He told me it was just better to include the shear wall supports in the original plans and knock it out after they final the addition


BTW - here is a pic of the doors I made for it

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/New-Shop/IMG_1565_zps85688afb.jpg

jep24601
01-06-2014, 08:05 PM
Around here the permits are next weeks to-do list for the tax appraiser.

Well yes, that's how it's supposed to be - you pay property taxes on property.

SteveF
01-06-2014, 11:59 PM
.........................
but in the US we have freedoms.
The government still tries to take them away
............................


Yeah, it really sucks. Used to be someone could build whatever he wanted. If that person turned out to be an idiot redneck whose isn't remotely as smart as he thought he is, after he sells the place and the building burns down and kills a couple of people because it wasn't wired right, or collapses under an 8 inch snow load, well they should have checked the place out better, right Doozer?

BTW If you think government officials can't come onto your property to investigate a violation of the law you are seriously misinformed about the concept of private property.

Steve

darryl
01-07-2014, 12:41 AM
It's of course prudent to supply a reasonable measure to help prevent accidents- fencing, gates, barricades- whatever makes sense. But to be a homeowner and responsible for someone who has to use their brain to get into your property where they might be hit by a wine bottle falling from the table- then they get to sue you- or somebody trips and falls into your bonfire, then sues you for their burns- this stuff goes on and on. Reasonable measures- fine. The rest of it is ludicrous. A guest could slip in your shower and bang their head on a support bar that some law said you have to have. But I'm not here to harp about all this-

Making cutouts for machines, benches, etc that take up shop space- great idea. Done that myself. It's a lot easier to move those around to both find out where they would fit best, and find out how much room you actually need in total. Make a wide one for the bandsaw, so you can see what it would take to cut into full-length pieces of stock, and where and how you can set up supports. In my shop, which is too small now, I had to consider how to get long stock into the shop and onto the saw without risking damaging the walls, equipment, and everything else.

I wish I was at a point where I could begin to build my 'dream shop'- but I'm not there yet.

Ironwoodsmith
01-07-2014, 01:32 AM
12 years ago my wife and I moved to San Juan islands in northern Wa state. I visited here on my boat and found some interesting building codes. The way it was told to me was the county had the first owner/builder code in the country. Still don't know if that is true but the sure worked for me.

For instance, we can build a 1000 sf shop or outbuilding with just a filing for an accessory bldg. Maybe a 20 dollar fee and go to work. I told them I wanted to build 6000 sf and they told to make 6 applications at once, which I did. They said to just show common walls and a shared roof. And then to cap it off, 6 months later they gave me an permit to build a 2400 sf house over the top. All of this was done as an owner/builder so the fees for the house were less than half contractor fees and they required no structural inspection what so ever. I swear, no structural at all. I even got to use my own lumber cut on site from the trees I removed on the home site. I did have standard electrical and what they refer to as "life/safety inspection". And I nearly forgot the plumbing and septic was inspected to US code.

So we put almost 10,000 sf under roof for about 100k cash money and a bunch of sweat equity. Wife and I did 98% of the work and took about 6 years to really make it comfortable. This is an early pic, I have since added 16' wide full sheds on both sides.


http://rs795.pbsrc.com/albums/yy232/Ironwoodsmith/Mobile%20Uploads/PICT0007.jpg~320x480

Black Forest
01-07-2014, 02:06 AM
Building codes.......don't get me started. Having moved to Germany from Texas I was shocked at the restrictions and regulations on trying to build anything on your property. No such thing as going down to the local and just filing a permit. It takes about two years to get through all the hoops you have to jump through. And because we are isolated from other homes and farms it is even more difficult to build anything new on our property. If I wanted to build a big indoor riding arena it would be easier if I lived in the middle of town than it is out in the country. No joke.

The regulations here regarding a private swimming pool got so bad we filled in our big concrete pool with dirt!

jhe.1973
01-07-2014, 02:13 AM
The way it was told to me was the county had the first owner/builder code in the country. Still don't know if that is true but the sure worked for me.

For instance, we can build a 1000 sf shop or outbuilding with just a filing for an accessory bldg. Maybe a 20 dollar fee and go to work. I told them I wanted to build 6000 sf and they told to make 6 applications at once, which I did. They said to just show common walls and a shared roof. And then to cap it off, 6 months later they gave me an permit to build a 2400 sf house over the top. All of this was done as an owner/builder so the fees for the house were less than half contractor fees and they required no structural inspection what so ever. I swear, no structural at all. I even got to use my own lumber cut on site from the trees I removed on the home site. I did have standard electrical and what they refer to as "life/safety inspection". And I nearly forgot the plumbing and septic was inspected to US code.



Really great looking building. I am glad to hear of your experience that building codes don't need to be a power play & that inspectors can actually be a help.

I heard of a building inspector who showed up at an owner/builder site in one of our counties in Arizona. He told the owner, "It's obvious you know what you are doing so I don't need to come back here". That was the last he saw of him.

I don't know if ours is that understanding but he seems to be pretty good. I just had the shop roof redone and he never said a word about an extension I added or a storage container that I probably should have had a permit for.

I am going to get a permit for it now that I know he isn't out to rule the world! :D

jhe.1973
01-07-2014, 02:25 AM
Building codes.......don't get me started. Having moved to Germany from Texas I was shocked at the restrictions and regulations on trying to build anything on your property. No such thing as going down to the local and just filing a permit. It takes about two years to get through all the hoops you have to jump through. And because we are isolated from other homes and farms it is even more difficult to build anything new on our property. If I wanted to build a big indoor riding arena it would be easier if I lived in the middle of town than it is out in the country. No joke.

The regulations here regarding a private swimming pool got so bad we filled in our big concrete pool with dirt!

I understand so well how you feel.

A big reason I left Wisconsin, where I was born, was 'cuz I finally had enough with the power plays of zoning boards & building inspectors.

I could not get a permit to use a barn built w/huge beams and plank floors 'cuz it was called a frame building. If I tore the barn down & used the basement (concrete floor & field stone walls) but left the posts & plank floors above as a roof I could put any dividing walls in w/regular 2X4s. So, I could make it a greater fire hazard with kindling for walls just 'cuz it would no longer be called a frame structure!!!!!!!!!

I wanted two driveways because we were on a 50 MPH 2 lane curve & didn't want to have semi trucks having to back out. Nope! Driveways too close for their precious rules. Never mind I was trying to make it safer.

There is more.................LOTS more!

P.S. ............................... So, has your wife let you back in the kitchen yet? :D


My wife just put locks on the kitchen door after seeing your video!

Doozer
01-07-2014, 08:15 AM
Yeah, it really sucks. Used to be someone could build whatever he wanted. If that person turned out to be an idiot redneck whose isn't remotely as smart as he thought he is, after he sells the place and the building burns down and kills a couple of people because it wasn't wired right, or collapses under an 8 inch snow load, well they should have checked the place out better, right Doozer?

BTW If you think government officials can't come onto your property to investigate a violation of the law you are seriously misinformed about the concept of private property.

Steve

Damn right they should have checked it out better.
Once I bought a house that was a total piece of shlt.
I knew it was, price was right, I fixed the problems,
all happy happy. Same goes for buying a car, ya know.
And who said there was a violation of the law?
If an inspector suspects a law has been broken,
let him get a warrent to come on the property.
Maybe it is you who is misinformed about your rights!?!?

-D

JoeFin
01-07-2014, 08:59 AM
I could not get a permit to use a barn built w/huge beams and plank floors 'cuz it was called a frame building. If I tore the barn down & used the basement (concrete floor & field stone walls) but left the posts & plank floors above as a roof I could put any dividing walls in w/regular 2X4s. So, I could make it a greater fire hazard with kindling for walls just 'cuz it would no longer be called a frame structure!!!!!!!!!

I wanted two driveways because we were on a 50 MPH 2 lane curve & didn't want to have semi trucks having to back out. Nope! Driveways too close for their precious rules. Never mind I was trying to make it safer.

The other BIG Improvement I got from working with the County Building Dept was the Rezoning of my property.

We are in a small unincorporated town that so far has voted twice to NOT incorporate into a township. We don't much care for Idiot Empire Building at the Tax Payers expense around here. The little Enclave of Nonconformist also successfully sued the county for issuing building permits to Corporate Home Builders who were encroaching (building out a "Premanufactured Town" next to us) on our rural lifestyle.

The settlement was we had to adopt a "Plan" - zoning plan for our area.

I am now Zoned "Commercial/Industrial Loft" as they had that designation 100' over on the next street and merely extended to encompass my property.

I can't make noise 24/7 but I am now allowed to conduct business out of the property.

As far as my neighbors go - on the side of the property where the shop is located I discussed my plans with them and even came to agreement as far as landscaping and no windows on that side of the building. They rather look at Grapevines and not hear the machines at 5 am.

A far cry from when this all started and the Code Enforcement Nazi said I couldn't have these machines on my property

ironmonger
01-07-2014, 09:09 AM
Inspectors... I went in to my plumbing inspectors office to get a permit. this sign was on the wall over his shoulder.

"Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in mud...
Sooner or later you come to realize the pig enjoys it."

[rant on]
Personally, I think that the greatest service inspectors do is to protect the next owners from what ever d****ss idea joe wrench had...

If your neighbors children get harmed on your property perhaps it's time we prosecute the parents along with the landowner with the 'attractive nuisance'. The operative concept here is 'your property'.

As long as whatever you do only harms you or your family, that's just evolution in action. Please confine it to your own property.

To quote Albert Einstein:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
[rant off]


paul

Stern
01-07-2014, 10:15 AM
I don't know about Canada,
but in the US we have freedoms.
The government still tries to take them away
unless we are fight to preserve them.
Being passive with athorities and letting them
do whatever they want? That is a police state.
Know your rights and have some backbone
to stand up for yourself.

--Doozer

Well, Im pretty sure almost every place has "freedoms", which sure ISNT the freedom to do what ever YOU want. We, like the US and other places, have RULES, regardless of weather you like them or not. Out inspectors (fire and building) run under a set of codes, and have granted to them a specific amount of authority.

So, maybe you think that all authority should be fought against, as they really only want to steel your freedoms, and I guess thats your opinion. Our inspectors were given their powers to make sure IDIOTS didnt build dangerous structures or create hazardous conditions that put OTHER PEOPLE in harms way, and i am all for that. Maybe you dont care if "Billy-Bob-Joe-Sue" built his big barn 4" from your house and uses it to make illegal fire works and moonshine, well at least I know I am safe :)

Doozer
01-07-2014, 10:42 AM
It is not building inspectors specifically that
I have a problem with.
It is the can of worms that opens when you get
a permit and involve a buuilding inspector.

Things like, I can only build a garage (shop)
so big...for example. Their rules don't seem to
consider that I might have 30 acres of land, and
a shop the size I want might actually be appropriate
for the size of my land. And them finding problems with
pre-existing buildings / pools, things not in the scope
of what the permit was for. Go pound salt.

For the record, I did build my shop and I got a permit
and had it inspected. On my final, the inspector told me
that my building was the most sturdy construction he had
ever seen for a garage. I was proud to hear that, but I
knew I built it right and strong to boot, so I expected
no problems.

-D

ironmonger
01-07-2014, 10:43 AM
Well, Im pretty sure almost every place has "freedoms", which sure ISNT the freedom to do what ever YOU want. We, like the US and other places, have RULES, regardless of weather you like them or not. Out inspectors (fire and building) run under a set of codes, and have granted to them a specific amount of authority.

So, maybe you think that all authority should be fought against, as they really only want to steel your freedoms, and I guess thats your opinion. Our inspectors were given their powers to make sure IDIOTS didnt build dangerous structures or create hazardous conditions that put OTHER PEOPLE in harms way, and i am all for that. Maybe you dont care if "Billy-Bob-Joe-Sue" built his big barn 4" from your house and uses it to make illegal fire works and moonshine, well at least I know I am safe :)

I refer you to Mike Holmes... evidently "Billy-Bob-Joe-Sue" is alive and well up 'nort'

paul

mattthemuppet
01-07-2014, 10:54 AM
Not a joke. Sorry, I forgot to add the necessary disclaimer
for internet postings:

"CAUTION, THE FOREGOING POSTING MAY CONTAIN SARCASM"

We've had several pool drownings of small children in this area in the last year or so, at least one of them was due to the child wandering onto a neighbor's property.

I'm sorry, I don't do so well picking up "sarcasm" when it pertains to children dying. Might be worth avoiding "sarcasm" when it comes to genocide, rape, murder and things like that too. You know, because they're kinda serious sucky things?

loose nut
01-07-2014, 11:24 AM
The solution to pool drownings is to fence off the rivers and lakes ?

Didn't they do that on the north side of the Rio Grande.

cameron
01-07-2014, 11:49 AM
I'm sorry, I don't do so well picking up "sarcasm" when it pertains to children dying. Might be worth avoiding "sarcasm" when it comes to genocide, rape, murder and things like that too. You know, because they're kinda serious sucky things?

I'm sorry you don't understand sarcasm. It's not always or even usually meant to be taken as humour or as making light of a serious matter. If you really don't get sarcasm it would be better if you never read Shakespeare, Dickens, Jonathan Swift, the New Testament, or pretty much any serious literature in English, or just about any other language. This is not meant as a personal attack on you. I read your posts with enjoyment, and the impression I have of you is that you are not only an interesting person, but, more importantly, a very decent one. If my postings cause you distress because of my manner of expression, it might be better if you simply ignore them.

Just for the record, I do not approve of "genocide, rape, murder, and things like that". However, I do reserve my right to use sarcasm, irony, metaphor, simile, hyperbole, or any other literary device I choose when discussing those or other topics. The world is full of jackasses and nasty people. If I'm taken for one of them because someone misinterprets what I write, that's just too bad.

kendall
01-07-2014, 12:36 PM
It is a tough time for family and friends whenever or wherever someone drowns no matter "who's fault it is" child or adult , having said that the laws around here concerning pool safety are over the top crazy.
Steve

I agree with the pool laws being crazy. My mother's town has a break point on fence requirements of 24 inches. 24 inch depth, no fence required, 24.5 inches and you need a 4ft tall fence around it.

cameron
01-07-2014, 01:10 PM
I agree with the pool laws being crazy. My mother's town has a break point on fence requirements of 24 inches. 24 inch depth, no fence required, 24.5 inches and you need a 4ft tall fence around it.

Definitely crazy. Seems OK to drown a kid 23" tall, but 25" tall kids need protection.

wierdscience
01-07-2014, 01:53 PM
Well yes, that's how it's supposed to be - you pay property taxes on property.

Property taxes? You mean rent,because you don't really own anything as long as the local government can evict you off of it for non payment.

John Stevenson
01-07-2014, 02:44 PM
I'm sorry you don't understand sarcasm. It's not always or even usually meant to be taken as humour or as making light of a serious matter. If you really don't get sarcasm it would be better if you never read Shakespeare, Dickens, Jonathan Swift, the New Testament, or pretty much any serious literature in English, or just about any other language. This is not meant as a personal attack on you. I read your posts with enjoyment, and the impression I have of you is that you are not only an interesting person, but, more importantly, a very decent one. If my postings cause you distress because of my manner of expression, it might be better if you simply ignore them.

Just for the record, I do not approve of "genocide, rape, murder, and things like that". However, I do reserve my right to use sarcasm, irony, metaphor, simile, hyperbole, or any other literary device I choose when discussing those or other topics. The world is full of jackasses and nasty people. If I'm taken for one of them because someone misinterprets what I write, that's just too bad.


For anyone that doesn't understand irony it's the same as coppery and brassy

mattthemuppet
01-07-2014, 02:45 PM
I'm sorry you don't understand sarcasm. It's not always or even usually meant to be taken as humour or as making light of a serious matter. If you really don't get sarcasm it would be better if you never read Shakespeare, Dickens, Jonathan Swift, the New Testament, or pretty much any serious literature in English, or just about any other language. This is not meant as a personal attack on you. I read your posts with enjoyment, and the impression I have of you is that you are not only an interesting person, but, more importantly, a very decent one. If my postings cause you distress because of my manner of expression, it might be better if you simply ignore them.

Just for the record, I do not approve of "genocide, rape, murder, and things like that". However, I do reserve my right to use sarcasm, irony, metaphor, simile, hyperbole, or any other literary device I choose when discussing those or other topics. The world is full of jackasses and nasty people. If I'm taken for one of them because someone misinterprets what I write, that's just too bad.

hmm, fair enough. I do understand sarcasm, obviously, as I'm British, but internet posting sarcasm is easily misinterpreted or not interpreted at all. I'm also especially sensitive to postings, sarcastic or not, pertaining to children dying or being abused. Mea culpa.

Sadly this thread seems to have degenerated far from the original purpose of celebrating JoeFin's awesome new workshop, sorry about that Joe.

Alistair Hosie
01-07-2014, 02:56 PM
I feel for you and hope your new premises are much better t6han before I wish you a great deal of fun and happiness there. Alistair

PStechPaul
01-07-2014, 03:49 PM
This has been an interesting thread, although it has meandered rather far from the original topic. My "shop" is a total mess, although better than it was originally, before major renovations:

http://pauleschoen.com/photos/715_Shop_031.jpg

http://pauleschoen.com/photos/Renovations004_Outside.jpg

http://pauleschoen.com/photos/Renovations007_Inside.jpg

http://pauleschoen.com/photos/Renovations009_Inside.jpg

From that point, new plywood flooring was added as well as studs and drywall. But you can see why everything gets ruined quickly from dampness, rust, mold, and mildew. The back wall is below grade and leaks.

I'm thinking about getting a largish storage shed or prefab garage that I can use for some of my work projects, such as my electric tractor(s). But ultimately I would like to establish or become part of an intentional community with lots of land and zones so as to allow small individual dwellings (even campers and mobile homes), as well as central buildings which could be a commercial size kitchen, recreation room, metal shop, wood shop, electronics shop, automotive shop, and whatever else may benefit the community. I know that most of us take pride in having our own shops that we would be hesitant to share with others, but then again as we get older or rely on fixed income it becomes harder to maintain a fully equipped shop as well as a large house and property. So we may face the choice of moving to a retirement home where at best there may be a craft shop and sewing room, or we could pool together resources and incorporate other people into a living arrangement where many more options are possible. It may be difficult to get zoning for such an enterprise, but it would not be much different from a campground, and it could still be maintained as such (to some extent) as a source of income. This is getting a bit OT, but I think it is a good concept. I think I'll start another thread to discuss this idea more thoroughly.

Paul Alciatore
01-07-2014, 03:53 PM
There are reasons for the various provisions of the codes. Some good. Some really good. Some bad. Some ridiculous. And some that are impossible to categorize. Politics! Enough on that.

Given that those rules do exist, that inspector really did do you a favor. I mean, he would have been entirely justified to demand that you move or tear down your originally planned shop when it was later discovered that it was too close to the property line. He did you a BIG favor.

And as for not letting him on the property, with satellite imaging and perhaps a disgruntled neighbor, there would be no need for that when he can see all from above and from the neighbors' back and side yards.

I built a shop add-on in South Florida. I quickly discovered that the building inspectors were my friends if I just worked with them instead of against them. They provided many suggestions that prevented bad mistakes that I, not the next owner, would have regretted. I just followed the code and their advice and I had a great structure. And I was very careful of the property line restrictions as concrete and concrete block is hard to move or cut. I also did almost all of it, including the electrical. I did get some help with the concrete and concrete block and the flat roof. Sorry I didn't take any pictures.

cameron
01-07-2014, 06:05 PM
For anyone that doesn't understand irony it's the same as coppery and brassy

You're being silly again, John. Irony is magnetic.

loose nut
01-07-2014, 07:15 PM
http://pauleschoen.com/photos/715_Shop_031.jpg

http://pauleschoen.com/photos/Renovations004_Outside.jpg

http://pauleschoen.com/photos/Renovations007_Inside.jpg

http://pauleschoen.com/photos/Renovations009_Inside.jpg

.

Was anyone hurt in the explosion!!!

loose nut
01-07-2014, 07:16 PM
For anyone that doesn't understand irony it's the same as coppery and brassy

Irony I understand but what the 'ell is coppery and brassy.

PStechPaul
01-07-2014, 07:29 PM
It's all heavy metal. Think Led Zeppelin or Iron Butterfly or Uranium Mosquito...

mikem
01-07-2014, 08:31 PM
What era does the stone foundation indicate that the age of the house is? Would it be best to put in a drain field and then pour concrete on the floor?

PStechPaul
01-07-2014, 11:41 PM
The property deed records show a major subdivision in 1877, and I think that's when the houses were built. I've been struggling with all sorts of problems with the houses and it is probably not worth the effort now to correct them. I have 2.5 acres and the land (and location) are what I value more than anything else. The renovations I had done were not really all that great and to a large extent just covered over problems that are showing up again after a few years. I'm no longer able to do all the heavy work myself, and I can't trust (or afford) contractors. I have videos of some of the renovations I have done:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxKL2p8O3EM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlQgyPw4Seo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G1KrogqShQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wYWs4751Tw

mike4
01-08-2014, 02:41 AM
I am amazed at how the timber has survived as long as it has.
Here if I place a pine pallet in the yard for any longer than a week i have to turn it over to see if the timber is still structurally capable of supporting any weight as the termites "LOVE " to eat timber.

I only use steel for shop framing and when possible heavy steel as I want something that will last not something that has to be replaced in ten years .

That said the OP's shop looks great for its intended purpose and I hope that he has a lot of enjoyable time there.
Michael

darryl
01-08-2014, 03:00 AM
Yes, back to the OPs shop. Looks good.

Brassy and coppery? I prefer stainlessee steelee myself. And aluminyummy. Oh, the irony of it. Now if there were other materials, could it involve a woody? :)

JoeFin
01-08-2014, 09:27 AM
I have 2.5 acres and the land (and location) are what I value more than anything else. The renovations I had done were not really all that great and to a large extent just covered over problems that are showing up again after a few years. I'm no longer able to do all the heavy work myself, and I can't trust (or afford) contractors. I have videos of some of the renovations I have done:

My place is quite a bit smaller at just .3 of an acre an it was fairly run down through neglect.

So far every thing I.ve done by design should out live me and thats all I care about as I don't want to do it again.

My eldest son got married and had my first Grandson but was living in an apartment. I had him remove the Cedar Shakes from the exterior walls, install new insulation and 5/8" Dura-Board T-11 siding which is a commercial grade siding. In return I helped him with a down payment for the home he lives in now.

My next eldest son who works in aviation wanted a few toys for work like the Snap-On Digital Torque Wrenches and a Miller 304 Welder with the XMT "Push Pull" Wire Feeder. Well the roof needed repair and all the purlins under the rafters plus a few rafters themselves needed fixen. Additionally we had to re sheath the entire roof before laying down a good 40 year material

I'm going to help my boys regardless - this just keeps them honest and teaches them a good work ethic

loose nut
01-08-2014, 11:25 AM
could it involve a woody? :)

Metal you work with at any age but a woody, that depends on how old you are.

PStechPaul
01-08-2014, 12:33 PM
Old tools and their owner/operators may be slow, but IMHO the technique and the process are much more enjoyable than the end result. :cool:

As for the scale drawings and paper representations of machines and work areas, it does seem to work a little better than CAD, but I have become adept enough with TurboCAD to be able to make 3-d models and then I can actually do a walk-through to see what rooms will look like.

http://pauleschoen.com/photos/713-Down-FloorPlan-Iso-SE.jpg

http://pauleschoen.com/photos/713FloorPlanDownstairs-3D.jpg

Stern
01-08-2014, 12:58 PM
I refer you to Mike Holmes... evidently "Billy-Bob-Joe-Sue" is alivre and well up 'nort'

paul

Not really sure Im catching your point, sorry. Not insinuating we dont have issues here like everywhere else, just stating that is what the codes are "supposed" to prevent. As for Holmes ...... another example of a good concept (do it right) blown up and engulfed by the corporate money song (do it right, but only use my sponsored products ... oh and please ignore any stupid wrong things that I do on the show that the editors miss). May be a fun show to watch, but he is just another high priced contractor that "pretends" to know it all.

Anyway, back to my point, the codes are in place to help stop crap construction but the only way possible, "Legal legislation". Its hard to stop Mr home owner from making a change in his house without a permit (in case one would be required), but without the code, MR large corporate guy would be building big buildings out of cow crap and old car parts. You can NEVER stop "stupid from being and doing stupid", but at least you can empower officials who can come and say "hey stupid, tear that **** down NOW"

tylernt
01-08-2014, 04:01 PM
100 amp, 200 amp, you guys are crazy. whats the current price of copper? (we get 40 amp max, 3-phase though.)

Let's see, I'll assume you have 240V power there. 3 phase x 40A = 120A total, and 120A x 240V = 28.8kW.

I always get confused on US power because it comes in as 240V split into two 120V phases. But, I believe it's 100A of 240V = 24kW so pretty comparable to Switzerland.

Where I live, natural gas is widely used for space heating and water heating (cheaper than electricity), so 100A service is plenty for most homes and that's usually what I see here. (A few old homes have only 60A, but that's getting rare).

200A is going into a lot of new homes now just because it's a bigger number and homeowners have more money (er, credit) than sense. That said, 200A is appropriate for areas with electric space heating (though I shudder to think of their power bills). Going to 200A doesn't use more copper though -- the service feeders are almost always aluminum; copper is usually reserved for branch circuits.

ironmonger
01-08-2014, 05:33 PM
@JoeFin
It was certainly a pain in the ass to have gone through all you have, but the end result should suit your needs well. Do they have a variance procedure in your area? I'm planning on applying for a variance for a shed here. I wonder how common the grant of variances and waivers is around the country?


<snip>
As for Holmes ...... another example of a good concept (do it right) blown up and engulfed by the corporate money song (do it right, but only use my sponsored products ... oh and please ignore any stupid wrong things that I do on the show that the editors miss). May be a fun show to watch, but he is just another high priced contractor that "pretends" to know it all."

If he says level one more time when he means plumb...



Anyway, back to my point, the codes are in place to help stop crap construction but the only way possible, "Legal legislation". Its hard to stop Mr home owner from making a change in his house without a permit (in case one would be required), but without the code,
I was a plumber for 42 years 35 of them as a master plumber. I get along with inspectors just fine.
Home owners here can 'get away with' anything until they try to sell their house. At that point the building inspector must perform an inspection before they will grant an occupancy permit to the new owners. That is when they discover all the 'un-permited' jobs that have occurred. If the work can't be seen, the walls need to be opened up, and then the permit fees are 4X the current rate. Thats life. So many of the contractor problems could be solved by a few more references and visits... folks don't want to take the time. It is one of the instances where architects can save you more than what you might have spent without one. Having been in the business all that time, I can only imagine what joe office worker can be put through having no knowledge of construction.

When we got calls from homeowners who wanted to be "general contractors' our prices were generally 35% to 50% higher for labor. I was our experience that the poor planning that someone who did not underatand construction resulted in extra trips and rework. We called it 'This Old House' syndrome...



MR large corporate guy would be building big buildings out of cow crap and old car parts. You can NEVER stop "stupid from being and doing stupid", but at least you can empower officials who can come and say "hey stupid, tear that **** down NOW"

Wow what happened to you?
I don't know what kind of Owners those contractors would have served, All I can tell you is that in those 42 years I only ran into one contractor (this is on a multi-million dollar Athletic center for a school) that exhibited true crapsmanship.... It's really fun to have antonymous informants point out to the client (owner) what had happened. I know that the corrections must have cost them over half a million. tough...


paul

JoeFin
01-08-2014, 06:36 PM
@JoeFin
It was certainly a pain in the ass to have gone through all you have, but the end result should suit your needs well. Do they have a variance procedure in your area? I'm planning on applying for a variance for a shed here. I wonder how common the grant of variances and waivers is around the country?

paul

Yes they do and they were willing to grant the variance on the detached barn/shed that was originally constructed without a permit. The kicker was I used a slab 6" above grade and they wouldn't accept that without a 6" stem wall/footing

Toyed around with the idea but the counter guy's advice was better. Once I attached it to the existing garage I didn't need a variance but I still had to put in a 6" stem wall. No big deal - I just pinned the existing slab on the sides and built the forms up to it. Besides - it made getting water, electric, and air run between the existing and new so much easier.

All told it is extremely well constructed and well certainly outlast me without issue

darryl
01-08-2014, 09:14 PM
After seeing those 12x50 surface plates for sale some time ago, I had visions of setting four of them together as a floor and building the shop on top of it. Might be a bit of a bitch moving them into place and getting them level, but with a few friends and some beer, anything can happen :)

tricklidz
01-08-2014, 09:54 PM
Hell, my shops about a third that size!!!
http://tricklidz.blogspot.com/2013/12/workshop-mancave.html?m=1

Stern
01-09-2014, 11:24 AM
@JoeFin
It was certainly a pain in the ass to have gone through all you have, but the end result should suit your needs well. Do they have a variance procedure in your area? I'm planning on applying for a variance for a shed here. I wonder how common the grant of variances and waivers is around the country?



If he says level one more time when he means plumb...


I was a plumber for 42 years 35 of them as a master plumber. I get along with inspectors just fine.
Home owners here can 'get away with' anything until they try to sell their house. At that point the building inspector must perform an inspection before they will grant an occupancy permit to the new owners. That is when they discover all the 'un-permited' jobs that have occurred. If the work can't be seen, the walls need to be opened up, and then the permit fees are 4X the current rate. Thats life. So many of the contractor problems could be solved by a few more references and visits... folks don't want to take the time. It is one of the instances where architects can save you more than what you might have spent without one. Having been in the business all that time, I can only imagine what joe office worker can be put through having no knowledge of construction.

When we got calls from homeowners who wanted to be "general contractors' our prices were generally 35% to 50% higher for labor. I was our experience that the poor planning that someone who did not underatand construction resulted in extra trips and rework. We called it 'This Old House' syndrome...



Wow what happened to you?
I don't know what kind of Owners those contractors would have served, All I can tell you is that in those 42 years I only ran into one contractor (this is on a multi-million dollar Athletic center for a school) that exhibited true crapsmanship.... It's really fun to have antonymous informants point out to the client (owner) what had happened. I know that the corrections must have cost them over half a million. tough...


paul

Nothing ?? Maybe my post bit there was misunderstood. I work every day with inspectors and all forms of contractors, as everything I do is code driven. My point was (referred back to the post that basically stated people should be able to do what they want on their property and screw the inspectors/system/govn .... or whatever lol) that codes are in place to make sure things are done right. If there were no codes, we all KNOW contractors and builders would do things their way, usually the cheapest way, and always "money before sense". People may debate that, but Im sorry, facts are facts, and when "work" becomes "revenue generating" as opposed to a "hobby", the statement "our main goal is safety/service.quality/etc is total BULL****, anyone who thinks otherwise is a total idiot. When you perform "work" to generate "revenue", BOTTOM LINE is the primary driving force, as if its not you will fail.
So, how do we keep "revenue generating work" (business/corp/etc) to a certain standard ..... CODES. These are not guidelines, these are "YOU WILL OR ELSE" statements. This makes sure when a building goes up its done as safe as can be expected (and not like some Taiwan supermarket whose roof caved in due to crap cement being used because it was cheaper).

So, I am all for "freedoms", but seems people are very "quick" to scream "they are taking our freedoms" every time they are told they cant do something THEY want to do. Maybe people should re read the nice little document that details the "freedom of the people" ..... note the "people" ... doesnt just say "Bill" or "bob" ... probably because they were smart enough to know that not all people were smart enough to know what a "freedom" really was, as opposed to "something I wanna do, that might burn down the city, but I want it"

So, hope it makes my point a bit clearer lol

Stu Miller
01-09-2014, 11:49 AM
Stern,

I find your logic interesting because of what it omits. Let me illustrate with an example. My wife and I live in a house that was built in 1911 in a rural area. Plumbing and electricity were added at some later date when electricity became available in the area. We bought it about 1973. The building department showed no interest in code compliance in a building of that age and had no legal reason to do so. We had an architect draw up plans for an add-on to provide room for two boys a few years later. At that time we suggested upgrading the knob and tube wiring in the house, but were discouraged from this by the architect, the building department and three electricians who bid on the work because the wiring was perfectly safe and, in the eyes of some, better than the current standards. So we left it and added new circuits to new code for the added rooms. Now, times have changed and a pre-sale inspection must be made. Knob and tube wiring does not pass that inspection by definition and must be replaced prior to sale. So, we hired an architect, a building contractor, and various subcontractors, had all required inspections, met all codes, and now have a house which cannot be sold without major rewiring because the building department has since changed its "mind." I think the major problem with government at all levels is that reasonableness and thought is mostly absent by design.

skunkworks
01-09-2014, 12:16 PM
So pre-sale inspection showed asbestos? Radon? Termites? Would you be upset that those 'rules' have changed? Around here you would have a heck of a time getting home owners insurance with knob and tube. Isn't the pre-sale inspection done on behalf/by the buyer and not the 'government'? and if the buyer wanted it - he could waive the wiring anyway? (I agree with Stern.)



Stern,

I find your logic interesting because of what it omits. Let me illustrate with an example. My wife and I live in a house that was built in 1911 in a rural area. Plumbing and electricity were added at some later date when electricity became available in the area. We bought it about 1973. The building department showed no interest in code compliance in a building of that age and had no legal reason to do so. We had an architect draw up plans for an add-on to provide room for two boys a few years later. At that time we suggested upgrading the knob and tube wiring in the house, but were discouraged from this by the architect, the building department and three electricians who bid on the work because the wiring was perfectly safe and, in the eyes of some, better than the current standards. So we left it and added new circuits to new code for the added rooms. Now, times have changed and a pre-sale inspection must be made. Knob and tube wiring does not pass that inspection by definition and must be replaced prior to sale. So, we hired an architect, a building contractor, and various subcontractors, had all required inspections, met all codes, and now have a house which cannot be sold without major rewiring because the building department has since changed its "mind." I think the major problem with government at all levels is that reasonableness and thought is mostly absent by design.

Doozer
01-09-2014, 01:09 PM
Stern-
You are buying into the propaganda of the state.
I am all for commercial builders and trades needing permits.
It just makes sense. Your part about profit motives is well taken.
But what you fail to see is that a person on their private property
should be able to build whatever they want, how ever they want.
That is a freedom. If someone wants to buy the house or property
at a later time, then buyer beware. Same as buying a used car.
Why do you believe a land owner must build a structure to suit the
next guy who could buy the property? For commercial builders
who construct homes to sell in the general market, yes it makes
sense to have codes. But that should not apply to a private citizen
on his own private property. If you see things differently, that is
your freedom to believe what ever suits you.

--Doozer

JoeFin
01-09-2014, 02:18 PM
But what you fail to see is that a person on their private property
should be able to build whatever they want, how ever they want.
That is a freedom. If someone wants to buy the house or property
at a later time, then buyer beware.

--Doozer

I think we are already at the point of "Buyer Beware"

I bought this house cheap because it was originally constructed very well in the mid 1950s but had not had many of the typical upgrades you see people performing that are "Flipping Houses"

And that was INTENTIONAL on my part

I see no reason to pay "Full Boat" for any home with a "Home Depot" remodel on it. The materials are subpar and the majority of work performed is cosmetic designed to hide a wealth of structural problems.

Believe me - we looked at a ton of them - and thumbed our noses at all of them. Finally we ditched the agent trying to sell homes for his "Flipper Buddies" and found a home suitable for our intentions.

Sure we had to replace the siding from Cedar Shake - but we used a commercial grade 5/8 siding and added what California call OSHPOSH (State Architect's Office Approved for School and Hospital use) standard insulation which has a sound deadening barrier included. My Dip Sh#$ neighbor can fire up his motorcycle at 10 pm now and I'll never know it.

Sure we had to replace the roof - but instead of just using the 1"x4" lath sheathing we checked the county engineer's office and added a layer of 3/8" CDX over that. Together with 45 lb felt under a 40 year roofing material I know I never will have to worry about it again

And none of these materials came from Home Dippo - we have a hardware around the corner that the old man who owns it used to run a Builder's Supply out of it - every thing he gets for me is "Top Quality" - only thing is I have to order it

Last thing I want is a house "All Dolled Up" that will need to be completely taken down to the frame to undo all the cheap filler products sold by Home Dippo


BTW: the Inspector just signed off all my rough inspections - I'm closing walls now

Whoop whoop - there it is :D:cool:

skunkworks
01-09-2014, 02:34 PM
Congrats!!




BTW: the Inspector just signed off all my rough inspections - I'm closing walls now

Whoop whoop - there it is :D:cool:

loose nut
01-09-2014, 09:38 PM
But what you fail to see is that a person on their private property
should be able to build whatever they want, how ever they want.
That is a freedom.

Your confusing what was and what is.

You used to be free to build however you wanted to, good or bad but you are no longer (legally) free to this. The "Freedoms" that people think they have are an illusion, most no longer exist, at least in areas with heavy populations. This will apply to everything not just building codes. Maybe out in the boondocks you could get away with more things, you wouldn't have eyes on you as much.

Stern
01-10-2014, 09:28 AM
Stern-
You are buying into the propaganda of the state.
I am all for commercial builders and trades needing permits.
It just makes sense. Your part about profit motives is well taken.
But what you fail to see is that a person on their private property
should be able to build whatever they want, how ever they want.
That is a freedom. If someone wants to buy the house or property
at a later time, then buyer beware. Same as buying a used car.
Why do you believe a land owner must build a structure to suit the
next guy who could buy the property? For commercial builders
who construct homes to sell in the general market, yes it makes
sense to have codes. But that should not apply to a private citizen
on his own private property. If you see things differently, that is
your freedom to believe what ever suits you.

--Doozer

Well, I am probably the last person on the planet to buy into "govn. propaganda", but thats a whole other story.
I can see your point even though I dont agree with it, and here is why. Lets say you want to build a barn on your 28 acres, why should you need to follow codes. Yea ok, if it burns down or fall down on you then its YOUR problem .... this does make sense when looked at in this narrow example. OK, now you want to build a garage onto your house on your lot .... only you dont have 28 acres, you have 2.7 feet between you and the neighbors house. In this case if YOUR crappy construction screw up fails (falls, burns etc) it takes the neighbors place with it.
We are no longer (at least here) in the "wild west" where you have land for miles, we live in a time where land is measured not in acres, but sq inches and feet. What you do on your property usually DOES effect others.
Anyway, I am glad we have codes in place as it sure allows me to sleep better at night

justanengineer
01-10-2014, 10:30 AM
Why did you let the building inspector on your property??
Let him see what he can see while parked in the street.
Letting him come on your property is your fault.
If he asks what you are working on, say it was built before
you bought the house. Unless he has a court order, no need
to let him on your peoperty.


Two quick stories that I find funny...

My parents designed and built a 40x100 barn on an existing foundation on their property in the NYC suburbs in the 90s. Despite being 300 feet off the road and heavily screened by nonstop woods, the building inspector came skulking around one day loaded with threats and trying to issue citations. My then 50-something mother tried explaining they were just renovating an existing building (existing foundation actually), told him outright to leave, that he was trespassing, then proceeded to call the police. They escorted him off the property and IIRC their lawyer sent the city a letter about it. When all was said and done they got a permit completely free and the inspector was never seen on the property again.

When I bought a stinky foreclosure and completely renovated it two years ago, the city here in IN gave me a written warning the day after the closing for the grass being too long. I figured after that Id better get permits before renovating, so I hauled my checkbook down the the city engineer's office and was questioned as to what renovations specifically I was planning. New electric service and rewire before the power gets turned on, new plumbing before the water gets turned back on, new furnace and water heater before the gas, new roof, all new windows, all new kitchen appliances, complete repaint inside and out, re-tile.....everything except moving walls (but I would be gutting several). Not sure if they got tired of listening to me ramble, if they liked my plan, or if it was the fact that I was planning to do everything but the roof myself.....but the inspector listening to me finally told me outright - "sounds like you know what youre doing and you mentioned you dont have a lot of extra money to waste. No permits necessary, youre just "maintaining" your home. Put a sign in the window saying such w/my name on it." Luckily SWMBO pulled me out of the office before I **** myself. A neighbor down the street from us treated his wife to new kitchen appliances in an existing kitchen this summer, yup, $150 in permits.

JoeFin
01-10-2014, 10:32 AM
Stern-
You are buying into the propaganda of the state.
I am all for commercial builders and trades needing permits.
It just makes sense. Your part about profit motives is well taken.
But what you fail to see is that a person on their private property
should be able to build whatever they want, how ever they want.
That is a freedom. If someone wants to buy the house or property
at a later time, then buyer beware. Same as buying a used car.
Why do you believe a land owner must build a structure to suit the
next guy who could buy the property? For commercial builders
who construct homes to sell in the general market, yes it makes
sense to have codes. But that should not apply to a private citizen
on his own private property. If you see things differently, that is
your freedom to believe what ever suits you.

--Doozer


Doozer

Where I think you run-amuk with this logic is the Codes/Laws have to apply equally to everyone. And Yes building Codes are laws - just look up the "Health and Safety Codes" of your state

Would you want the many house flippers applying these same standards to the unsuspecting buyers? Would you think this approach acceptable in "High Density" residential neighborhoods where fires can jump home to home? Would you feel comfortable living next to Johnny Dumbarse's Fire Trap ready to set fire to your property?

If they allow you to "Do as you please" construct a "Tumble-Down-Shack of a Fire Trap" on your property then under the "Equal Protection under the Law" they then can be pressed into allowing anyone or everyone to do so too.

metalmagpie
01-10-2014, 12:26 PM
Lose the golf clubs!

Rosco-P
01-11-2014, 10:31 AM
Why did you let the building inspector on your property??
Let him see what he can see while parked in the street.
Letting him come on your property is your fault.
If he asks what you are working on, say it was built before
you bought the house. Unless he has a court order, no need
to let him on your peoperty.

--Doozer

Hate to revisit this, but in many places the zoning "Police" have the right to inspect your property 24/7, locked gates or not. Try and make it difficult.....and they will be accompanied by the "real" Police as well.

darryl
01-11-2014, 02:34 PM
Permit fees for changing kitchen appliances? Only thing I can see there is to make sure a licensed gas fitter does the re and re.

mike4
01-11-2014, 08:15 PM
Local authorities sometimes dont employ people who can picture what you are trying to do ,they can only read the rule book and blingly follow it.
I have found that some still have common sense (very rare these days) , and can be helpful in the early stages with practical suggestions which can save time and money in the long run.
However I have had the moronic ones who are unable to beleive that its possible to over engineer a building so that items like overhead cranes and other items can be added when they can be afforded .

The current attitude of builders seems to be the same everywhere , do it on the cheap and still charge high.
I get blank stares when I ask for a rolled stud frame to be replaced with UB and heavy material to withstand strong wind etc.
Some one the code/rules dont make sense , it seems that the rule makers think that because they cant do something , everyone else cant do it either , same crap is being applied to a lot of the "nanny state " garbage .
Michael

Doozer
01-11-2014, 09:50 PM
Hate to revisit this, but in many places the zoning "Police" have the right to inspect your property 24/7, locked gates or not. Try and make it difficult.....and they will be accompanied by the "real" Police as well.

Unless you live is Russia, you are dead ass wrong.
Don't you have any freakin clue what your rights are?

--Doozer

PStechPaul
01-11-2014, 11:48 PM
I'm not sure about building inspectors, but if someone tells the "authorities" that they think you have a stash of drugs or kiddie porn or weapons, you may be visited by the "Bad Boys" in full armor, and if they don't like you, they may find what they're looking for and your life will be hell from then on.

darryl
01-12-2014, 01:11 AM
Speaking of shop space, I'm nearly finished building a 'power tool tower'- it's just a set of shelves about two feet wide, just over a foot deep, and about four feet high. It's on casters, and the plan is to keep the circular saw, jig saw, drills, belt sander, routers, etc, stored on it in a vertical fashion. The bottom shelf has a back to it, but the rest are open all around except for the pair of 2x3s that are the uprights.

Many of them I use all the time, so I don't put them away- and I ran out of drawer room to keep them all anyway. I figured this rolling tower can be placed where there's room, and moved when needed. Takes up about two sq ft of floor space, and gives about ten sq ft of storage area on five shelves.

JoeFin
01-12-2014, 07:00 AM
Speaking of shop space, I'm nearly finished building a 'power tool tower'- it's just a set of shelves about two feet wide, just over a foot deep, and about four feet high. It's on casters, and the plan is to keep the circular saw, jig saw, drills, belt sander, routers, etc, stored on it in a vertical fashion. The bottom shelf has a back to it, but the rest are open all around except for the pair of 2x3s that are the uprights.

Many of them I use all the time, so I don't put them away- and I ran out of drawer room to keep them all anyway. I figured this rolling tower can be placed where there's room, and moved when needed. Takes up about two sq ft of floor space, and gives about ten sq ft of storage area on five shelves.

Good idea !!

I haven't gotten to the work bench/shelving stage yet but I certainly would like to see pictures. Being able to roll things around is certainly a PLUS. My main tooling bench is built on rollers mainly because it resides under the loft ladder to the attic.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/Lathe/Shop006.jpg

I really need to finish off the last top draws on that thing