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Black Forest
01-09-2014, 01:18 PM
So as not to piss in Brian's sandbox I started a new thread regarding different engines.

I really like the Hütlin's Kugelmotor. It is fascinating in its concept. The company that developed the engine is only about 10km away from me. The motor can be made into a very quiet air compressor. The main goal was to extend the range of electric cars. It actually is a generator that charges the batteries of electric cars.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/huttlin-spherical-engine2.htm

dp
01-09-2014, 01:37 PM
The cam/follower idea looks to be the weakest link (the equivalent function of crank/rods in a conventional engine). That is a lot of swept area. Any wear is going to change the timing of everything.

CCWKen
01-09-2014, 01:57 PM
LOL ... It wasn't until the end that author helped me figured out it wasn't some kind of kitchen appliance. I couldn't figure out what casserole had to do with it and it confused me all the way through. :)

Sounds too much like another perpetual engine.

MrSleepy
01-09-2014, 02:19 PM
The cam/follower idea looks to be the weakest link (the equivalent function of crank/rods in a conventional engine). That is a lot of swept area. Any wear is going to change the timing of everything.

Koenigsegg (the Swedish supercar manufacturer) have been running a camless solenoid/actuator development engine for a few years now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Bch5B23_pu0

Rob

PStechPaul
01-09-2014, 03:23 PM
There are other ICE designs that promise much higher efficiencies, but most are diesel:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/10/piston-free-engines-versus-high.html
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/28890yy.pdf (free piston engine research)

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1085403_volkswagen-golf-bluemotion-high-mpg-diesel-is-forbidden-fruit-for-us (65 MPG)
http://jalopnik.com/5742891/volkswagens-260-mpg-diesel-hybrid-coupe (260 MPG Hybrid)
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42460541/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/t/new-engine-sends-shock-waves-through-auto-industry/#.Us8ABJ0o7IU

mattthemuppet
01-09-2014, 03:31 PM
so the kugels (?!) slide on a bearing inside a piston that slides on a bearing in opposition to a rotor that turns the case. I think the answer to the "Got that?" question would be a no.

saltmine
01-09-2014, 03:57 PM
Interesting. I wonder if anybody knows that Preston Tucker(builder of the Tucker automobile) had an 8 cylinder, air cooled engine that didn't use a camshaft to open & close the valves. He utilized an "oil distributor" that used engine oil to open each valve when needed. Problems appeared when the engine was run at high speed and bubbles in the oil disrupted the valve timing. Running out of time before the first production Tuckers were to be introduced, Tucker was forced to substitute an "Air Cooled Motors" helicopter engine for the prototype engines.

HSM had an article on the construction of a solenoid actuated two-cylinder gas engine a while back.

dp
01-09-2014, 04:03 PM
Here is a link to the OP's engine including a video of the internals in motion.

http://www.gizmag.com/huttlin-kugelmotor/19923/

CarlByrns
01-09-2014, 05:00 PM
So as not to piss in Brian's sandbox I started a new thread regarding different engines.

I really like the Hütlin's Kugelmotor. It is fascinating in its concept. The company that developed the engine is only about 10km away from me. The motor can be made into a very quiet air compressor. The main goal was to extend the range of electric cars. It actually is a generator that charges the batteries of electric cars.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/huttlin-spherical-engine2.htm

Nothing new under the sun. Variations of this engine existed in the early 1960's and a similar engine made the cover of Popular Science magazine. The piston engine ain't going away- nothing else is as cheap to manufacture or as easy to control the exhaust emissions.

PStechPaul
01-09-2014, 05:26 PM
This is fascinating and the versatility is a major "selling point". In many cases, the ideal form factors for machines seems to be spheres, toroids, and sinusoidal or parabolic shapes. But I think the article is mistaken in their assertion that EVs are not yet viable or practical for the everyday driver. They do require a change of thinking, and battery technology will need to advance a bit more, but the ICE is destined to obsolescence as more serious research and innovation develop more efficient electric motors and energy storage and transfer technology. Fossil fuels should instead be considered fossil chemical resources and used for the manufacture of plastics and pharmaceuticals. Burning stuff should be reserved for heating, where it is nearly 100% efficient, and even for that there are other technologies such as passive solar and geothermal that are much more sustainable and cleaner.

John Stevenson
01-09-2014, 06:14 PM
I'd like to get back to Brian's engine that got the interest going in the Rootes TS3 which as we have seen is a remarkable engine.
This engine has also been a test bed engine for engineers who recognised that there was untapped power there.

In 1971 the Institute of mechanical Engineers in the Uk held a half day discussion on "Some Unusual Engines old and new" with some very renown guest speakers.
Also present was the late L.J.K. Setright who took notes and published these proceedings in a book called just "Some Unusual Engines"
Long out of print they do crop up from time to time but at a high cost, usually around £100 or $160

Below is a snippet from the book describing work done at Bath to increase the power of the TS3 from 120bhp to 420 bhp by compounding.

********

It was in1963 that Professor Wallace first developed the concept of the
differential compound engine, in a theoretical paper based on earlier studies
of the potential performance of opposed-piston two-stroke diesel engines
subjected to very high boost pressures. These studies have indicated that an
engine of this type, which gave 120bhp when naturally aspirated, might after
modification with variable-compression-ratio pistons achieve ratings of
320bhp a a boost pressure ratio of 3,rising to as much as 420bhp at a
pressure ratio of 5.Such power in such modest bulk (it represented 29 to 37
bhp/ft cubed )
represented a worthwhile advance even over the best results achieved
in the high-output four-stroke diesels introduced by such American firms as
Continental and Caterpillar in the 1960s; and it was judged worthwhile to
embark on the appropriate research at Bath University of Technology
(Bristol) ,using as a basis the well known Rootes TS3 compression-ignition
engine.
The differential compound engine is one in which three basic constituents
(engine,compressor and turbine ) are connected through differential gearing.
The exhaust gases from the engine are fed to a turbine , the output shaft of
which is geared to the output shaft of the engine by way of the spider carrying
the planetary pinions of a differential gear in which the annulus is on the
engine output shaft and the sun wheel drives the superchargers.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/rootes%20ts3%20differential%20engine.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-09-2014, 08:11 PM
My sandbox appreciates your consideration!!:D:D

MrSleepy
01-10-2014, 06:49 AM
I've always wondered what a Spitfire would have sounded like if RR had perfected the 2 stroke 1800bhp Crecy engine in time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Crecy

Rob

willmac
01-10-2014, 07:32 AM
You might have heard the engine once and once only, for probably a very short period of time before permanent deafness set in. The Crecy apparently raised the limits of what was meant by exhaust noise to an entirely new level. Legend has it that when it was tested at Derby, the noise was clearly heard in Nottingham (about 15 miles away) and set the air raid sirens off.

vpt
01-10-2014, 08:12 AM
I like 2 cycle engines.

I have an idea in my head on how to build a 2 cycle engine which would still have the conventional 4 cycle type oiling system but still the 2 cycle part of no valves and fires on every stroke.

Basically instead of using the crank case as the air pump, using forced induction and leave the crank case sealed to use an oil system.

mattthemuppet
01-10-2014, 09:24 AM
thanks for the link dp, makes a lot more sense now. Certainly looks really cool and good to see that people are still thinking outside the box. Especially for range extenders/ generators where you can design the engine to fairly narrow operating parameters. Then again, Wankel engines were lauded as paragons of power/ volume, but practical experience showed that they were thirsty, torque-less oil sumps (however cool). Given the decades of intensive research into conventional IC engines, I'd still put my money on them being around for a while yet.

Willy
01-10-2014, 09:56 AM
I like 2 cycle engines.

I have an idea in my head on how to build a 2 cycle engine which would still have the conventional 4 cycle type oiling system but still the 2 cycle part of no valves and fires on every stroke.

Basically instead of using the crank case as the air pump, using forced induction and leave the crank case sealed to use an oil system.


Andy, albeit with a few changes, it sounds like you have reinvented the 2 stroke Detroit Diesel 53-71-92-149 series of engines, the number signifies the cubic in displacement per cylinder. Very reliable engines that were in service for a loong time.
Having put at least a million miles on the 8v71 and 8v92 series engines I have a lot of respect for them.
But their time has come and gone as they simply could not be competitive against the 4 strokes in terms of fuel efficiency and emissions requirements.

A.K. Boomer
01-10-2014, 10:33 AM
I cannot believe the lengths that some people will go through to design an engine with no real added benefits yet with a ton of pitfalls...

the machining complexity is just a nightmare, the rebuild technology is non-existent as are any real bennies,,,

This guy deserves and A+++ for effort, unfortunately someone should have slapped him directly in the face and shouted "pull your head out of your arss man" before the project even got started...
there are some very very intelligent people in this world - who are also really really stupid...

You will never ever see an abortion like this make it to major production and actually be successful.

tylernt
01-10-2014, 11:03 AM
Basically instead of using the crank case as the air pump, using forced induction and leave the crank case sealed to use an oil system.

Check out the DeltaHawk Diesel aircraft engine.

mattthemuppet
01-10-2014, 11:09 AM
Don't be afraid to tell us how you really feel A.K. :D

Black Forest
01-10-2014, 12:02 PM
I cannot believe the lengths that some people will go through to design an engine with no real added benefits yet with a ton of pitfalls...

the machining complexity is just a nightmare, the rebuild technology is non-existent as are any real bennies,,,

This guy deserves and A+++ for effort, unfortunately someone should have slapped him directly in the face and shouted "pull your head out of your arss man" before the project even got started...
there are some very very intelligent people in this world - who are also really really stupid...

You will never ever see an abortion like this make it to major production and actually be successful.

I think that is nearly word for word what someone must have said to the Wright Brothers! Flying, get a life. Birds fly men walk.

A.K. Boomer
01-10-2014, 12:13 PM
Stay away from that Wheel Barrow Zirus - "Cuz you ain't mechanical"

Doozer
01-10-2014, 02:41 PM
Andy, albeit with a few changes, it sounds like you have reinvented the 2 stroke Detroit Diesel 53-71-92-149 series of engines, the number signifies the cubic in displacement per cylinder. Very reliable engines that were in service for a loong time.
Having put at least a million miles on the 8v71 and 8v92 series engines I have a lot of respect for them.
But their time has come and gone as they simply could not be competitive against the 4 strokes in terms of fuel efficiency and emissions requirements.


Amen to all of that.
I have a 3-53 Detroit, gunna buy a 4-53 also.
Plan on putting it in my '53 IHC truck with a 6 speed ZF.
Thoose are screaming little motors!

--Doozer

CarlByrns
01-10-2014, 07:09 PM
I cannot believe the lengths that some people will go through to design an engine with no real added benefits yet with a ton of pitfalls...

the machining complexity is just a nightmare, the rebuild technology is non-existent as are any real bennies,,,

This guy deserves and A+++ for effort, unfortunately someone should have slapped him directly in the face and shouted "pull your head out of your arss man" before the project even got started...
there are some very very intelligent people in this world - who are also really really stupid...

You will never ever see an abortion like this make it to major production and actually be successful.

Amen to that. I used to collect Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines and in the 1950's to 1960's every other issue featured some Larry Lightbulb engine that ignored the realities of mass production, cost per unit, or had odd maintenance requirements.

Hell, the Mazda rotary engine was almost sunk because it injected a metered amount of motor oil into the intake to lube the rotor seals. A built-in oil leak. Everyone says they check their engine oil, but in reality very few actually do. Which was fatal for an early Mazda.

Lew Hartswick
01-11-2014, 09:38 AM
Hell, the Mazda rotary engine was almost sunk because it injected a metered amount of motor oil into the intake to lube the rotor seals. A built-in oil leak. Everyone says they check their engine oil, but in reality very few actually do. Which was fatal for an early Mazda.
My SAAB 850 GT used that same "oiling" technique and it worked fine. People that don't fill the oil tank
when the fill the gas tank shouldn't be driving any such machine. :-)
...lew...

Rustybolt
01-11-2014, 10:07 AM
Wankel engines were lauded as paragons of power/ volume, but practical experience showed that they were thirsty, torque-less oil sumps (however cool). Given the decades of intensive research into conventional IC engines, I'd still put my money on them being around for a while yet.

Iread a book on the Wankle many years ago. If I recall correctly the design was never intended to be an ICE. It's original concept was for it to be used as an air compressor for piston driven aircraft.

Black Forest
01-14-2014, 07:49 AM
I cannot believe the lengths that some people will go through to design an engine with no real added benefits yet with a ton of pitfalls...

the machining complexity is just a nightmare, the rebuild technology is non-existent as are any real bennies,,,

This guy deserves and A+++ for effort, unfortunately someone should have slapped him directly in the face and shouted "pull your head out of your arss man" before the project even got started...
there are some very very intelligent people in this world - who are also really really stupid...

You will never ever see an abortion like this make it to major production and actually be successful.

There are a lot of benefits this motor for an electric car. The motor is actually a generator. In the application of an electric vehicle it would really shine as it has no mechanical connection to the drivetrain. A car could actually run directly from the motor via electricity. Not charging the batteries but supplying the electricity to the electric motor(s) that drive the wheels. Of course through the proper circuitry and such. This is different from the now available hybrids that use a mechanical connection from the IC engine to the drivetrain. This would reduce the number of overall parts in the auto. The stator on the kugel engine generates electricity and is used as the starter on the motor. If you supply electricity to the motor with some simplifying modifications it becomes a compressor. And a very quiet compressor.

The fewer moving parts becomes a big plus I would think. I for one do not think it is a lame brained idea at all. Maybe not the end all be all but definitely worth pursuing.

I have seen the engine and met the inventor and had a complete tour of the facility. There are over two million euros cost of patents applying only to this motor.

The whole motor only weighs 74kilograms to output 104hp. The weight savings in an automobile alone make it a big plus.

Rustybolt
01-14-2014, 08:05 AM
I gotta go with AK on this.
A nifty idea but how are you going to machine, say, just the cylinder, let alone finish it? I can see a lot more manufacturing pitfalls.