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View Full Version : Alternative Responce to the "Versus Thing".



Old Hat
05-27-2014, 01:48 AM
Instead of interfearing with others' threads I think I should quallify my viewpoints
by providing some background here.

I might point out that in the posessive sence, my viewpoints are more like 'battons'
in a relay race. They were handed to me by my Father and two Grandpas
before I ever entered the work-force. They were handed to me by other Men
I looked up to, almost revered, because I was so overcome by what they could do.

And to me, that is by far the most important measure of a mechanic or a metalworker
or an engineer, or a Boss! Infact it's about the only measure I use besides whether
one of these is honest or not. Cardholder? Degreed? American? Certified?
Well spoken of? Has dependency issues? on and on and on.
What he can do, period. Well no, also how does he mesh into the dynamic
of the crew around him.

ViewPoint #1
Existencial recognition. "It's what it is" not what I / You / They wish it was,
or what I / You / They are invested in hoping it would be.

ViewPoint #2
I'm open to reaching a point where I might find that ViewPoint #1 ,
might not actually be quite so solid now that more, or a different light
has shined on it, or I've been show it from a better advantage point.

ViewPoint #3
There exists an unseen dynamic among mankind, or the Easterners call it conflict or something,
that is never solved. To a point it provides ballance, but beyond that point creates drag, or impedance.
The airfoil thing "lift" +pressure under, or -pressure over the wing. Does the change in airspeed
create the pressure difference, or does the pressure difference create the change in airspeed?

Metalworking has hundreds of these that will never be solved. . . . SO!
What does this mean? It's simple once you see it. The VALUE ADDED to steal one of those
discusting new-age terms is: The question is where the Gold is, not the answer.
I was taught to be in a fluid state of questioning, linking the answers and the unanswers
together forming more questions. Naturally we work and get things done at the same time.
But failing to acknowledge the questions means they'll be there to be answered
once your work comes up short, or fails alltogether, or your machine has a much
shorter usefull life span, or you retire with less of your anatomy still attached.

ViewPoint #4
Pull is nearly allways better than push. A true Leader pulls, and by nature we are advanced.
Pulling reduces or absorbes or dissapates consrictive interferences and vibrations.
Pushing amplifies and compounds the effects of same. Pulling promotes movement
in staight lines despite obsticles. Pushing promotes change of direction when encoutering obsticles.
See a pattern here yet?

ViewPoint #5
Very often a smaller hammer is what you need, when popular oppinion would be the opposite.
And of course visa versa, my stamps and transfer punches are gorgeous decades later.
From using a heavy hammer moving slower, the force deforms the work not the end of the tool.
A vary fast blow of a very light hammer sends a shock-wave to the place where
trouble has decided it won't let go. The disturbance upsets the bond and trouble flees.

ViewPoint #6
"The count", the number defining the coordinates, the amount of feed per rev or per minute,
defining the temporature when a quench should occure, the bend allowance for a given gage
on a brakepress, the surface feet per minute. The number is a name for a value or a ratio
or a placement relative to a thing. One who has a love of numbers, do us all a favor
and become an accountant or an auditor, and stay out of the way.

The metal and the tooling and the machinery have a laguage that we can learn.
We can harmonise or sincronise with our metalic friends, comunicating in this language.
We realy only need the numbers to give definition to the dynamic for transfer or storage.

ViewPoint #7
Remove the numbers to this point. And keep going till yer back to the beginning. . .
If you can ever tell when you are back to the beginning.

Anyone want a 'Batton' ?

Mike Amick
05-27-2014, 02:18 AM
Did you get into the wine again ? :>

Old Hat
05-27-2014, 02:59 AM
I think you meant to post that in the "Noise and chatter" thread.
If not then my post is over your head. I'm not kidding around.

I can kid around, but not over this topic.

Jaakko Fagerlund
05-27-2014, 04:03 AM
Yes, truly alternative :) Would you mind to give the same time and dedication that you put in to this opening to point out some issues/problems/wrong-doings in those "other threads" (I assume we are talking about the grinding topics), as you seem to know but remind of my co-worker who speaks much but doesn't provide any backing to the stories. I'm not implying you are such as he is, because we can aall learn much more than we now know :)

Mike Amick
05-27-2014, 05:27 AM
I think you meant to post that in the "Noise and chatter" thread.
If not then my post is over your head. I'm not kidding around.

I can kid around, but not over this topic.

umm .. Ok Ok .. I did just feel it skim the top of my head.

No offense because It seems that you were realllllly intent on making a point
and for the life of me, I don't know what it is.

Maybe "I" shouldn't have had that wine.

Mike A

Black Forest
05-27-2014, 06:39 AM
The term mental masturbation comes to mind! :) What makes you think any of us are interested in your viewpoint. (note no question mark)

I'm with Jakko on this. All though it is wonderful that you have so much respect for your father and his father it is totally irrelevant in context here. I didn't read any further than that in the OP.

Weston Bye
05-27-2014, 07:06 AM
Zen?

boslab
05-27-2014, 07:46 AM
Well we have philosophy, mine and yours, yours is yours, zen, bernaullis theroem and a few other things all intertwined, perhaps a more simple approach to making your point would be in order?
Mark

vpt
05-27-2014, 08:04 AM
Bigger hammer!

MrFluffy
05-27-2014, 08:32 AM
When you post something wooly, and expect people to read between the lines to derive the conclusion, its often the case they use their own lines, and arrive at their own conclusions.
Its easier to just spit it out, cleaner, causes less confusion, and doesn't involve some bystander to some spat getting the wrong idea about what is trying to be achieved.

J Tiers
05-27-2014, 08:34 AM
I'm not sure whether the OP here (a new member)

a) is suggesting an attitude

b) is trying to FORCE an attitude by a "you should think like this or leave" post

c) is trying to re-phrase the ten commandments

d) did in fact get into the wine (possibly at the same time as watching an old Bogart movie)

e) has forgotten that this is not PM and so has hobbyists of widely varying interest and talents

f)??????????????

Abner
05-27-2014, 09:01 AM
Here is what I got using my best filter.

In working with metals and people;

Is he/she honest?

Does he/she understand the situation?

Does he/she know what is 'good enough' is?

Beyond that.....:rolleyes:

MrSleepy
05-27-2014, 09:14 AM
I miss Airsmith 282 ...at least his rants had aliens.

Rob

Old Hat
05-27-2014, 09:36 AM
Nothing original yet?
Zen. . . kinda I spose.
This is just as much fun as politics.
Loads of folks wanting others to find their answers for them.
Should have expected that I guess.
I'll steal another line from the Progressives then.

"If only one person got something out of my effort then it was all worth it!"
Wow it works . . . I feel real good now.:o

Yer in good hands now, maybe miss Airsmith will return.

JCHannum
05-27-2014, 10:06 AM
Perhaps the message to be gained here is to beware of anyone who's screen name is Old (something). Are we soon to be treated to colored pencil sketches, posed photos of unused tooling and lectures on binning?

Just sayin'.

KIMFAB
05-27-2014, 10:22 AM
I believe I see the problem here.

The OP is on a mission to disseminate the inner secrets if our world and its place in the present space-time continuum.
However he has not yet figured out that he has stumbled onto a machinist forum.
I think most of us here are cognizant of the space-time thing, we are just looking to shave off that last couple thou without going too far.

Show us a couple of your dies, then we'll break out the jug and get back to this esoteric stuff.

Old Hat
05-27-2014, 10:32 AM
I'm not sure whether the OP here (a new member)

e) has forgotten that this is not PM and so has hobbyists of widely varying interest and talents

f)??????????????

Has hobbyists of widely varying interest and talents.
YES, was what I hoped to find in the first place.
BUT.
You go first , str8 answer.
What's the thing here ?> 0201 2002 2603 1102 0404 0707 2402 7102 <
I've tryed to see it but can't.
Then I'll go.

boslab
05-27-2014, 01:00 PM
As all your evidence seems somewhat second hand, passed down as you say, how do you actually know it correct, im sorry to point out that just because your father or grandfather told you the world was flat and the lines on mars are cannals, does not make the information impirical fact, guess what, my father told me a lot of things that as it turns out are not correct, be sure your handing a batton and not a sausage, the one truth i did get from mine was that we dont know enough to know how little we do actually know.
As for lift relative motion is required between aerofoil and fluid, no motion no lift, wings etc do not function in a vacuum
A copy of Zen and the art of motocycle repair must be on your bookshelf
Mark

Old Hat
05-27-2014, 01:24 PM
I don't have a book shelf, but was lent that book in about '77' . . . hit & run read it.
Because I respected the man who wanted me to at least look at it.

But I digress; some at work bring me problems. I just fix it and give it back.
Or show how I do it and move along.
Others come with a problem and want to gain insight, that might expand
to the point, that next time they don't need help, or don't make it worse
before approaching one of the older guys. These fellows remind me of myself
a long time ago. I tryed to fix a thing or two. I fixed it all right! And a few times
I didn't have another one to use, having lost the first one.

What I remember most was not getting simple tinker-toy answers from my mentors.
They wanted to "install a constantly up-grading" software in my head.
Teach me not how-to's but how to evaluate, and discriminate.
It's the gift that keeps on giving, long after they are gone.

It appears I suck at giving this gift in this format.
I can only say, they insisted I cleared my head of pre-dispositions,
every time I face a new situation.

This kid is pointed in adout the same direction.
He and others like him, got me wanting more on math & physics and stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq-FOOQ1TpE

You guys keep swing'n, I'll check back now & then to see if you put up some new material.
Cool thing about forums is how many more viewers don't participate as members.
My take might take root in a spot or two.
In the mean time, unless I learn to use this format differently it's futile to proceed.
And I don't enjoy excersise in futillity.

Swing away fellas.:)

Highpower
05-27-2014, 02:06 PM
I miss Airsmith 282 ...at least his rants had aliens.

Rob


Perhaps the message to be gained here is to beware of anyone who's screen name is Old (something). Are we soon to be treated to colored pencil sketches, posed photos of unused tooling and lectures on binning?

Just sayin'.

It's beginning to sound like an offspring. Sigh.....

garagemark
05-27-2014, 02:18 PM
Don't see much reason to "swing away". You do your thing and I do mine. I don't have (or take) the time to figure out the meaning of life; I'm just too busy living it.

I too am getting old, and along with age comes a certain amount of inherent wisdom. But I learned a long time ago that I cannot impart my wisdom on others that do not wish to absorb it. I also do not attempt to do so in a place (this forum for example) where there is no useful reason to do so. There are many forums out there for deep thinkers. I think there are a few thinkers here, but by in large we seem to be deep doers (is that a real word?).

So, while I appreciate your attempt at greater wisdom, all of which may be undeniable; alas, it was wasted on me. It was simply too long and hard to read. I get more knowledge by one -liners and quickies. Things like "sticks and stones...". Now THAT, my friend, is true wisdom in a nutshell.

Peace

Mike Amick
05-27-2014, 02:32 PM
Yeah !! What Mark said !

Norman Bain
05-27-2014, 04:36 PM
Next time I have something that it tight and needs drifting out I am going to try to keep the smaller hammer approach in mind.

You know ... observe the effect ... add the observation to the knowledge base of what is mine moving forward.

Cheers,
Norman

macona
05-27-2014, 05:33 PM
I miss Airsmith 282 ...at least his rants had aliens.

Rob

Yes, he was fun to torment.

Not that I would EVER do something like that... Never... Not me... Nope...

CarlByrns
05-27-2014, 06:00 PM
Gunner...is that you?

For those of you who don't know what- or- who I'm referring to, the rec.crafts.metalworking newsgroup had a guy (still does, actually) famous for his wildly off-topic rants and over-the-top-brags. Old Hat seems to use Gunner's style of poor spelling, bad syntax, poor punctuation, and inappropriate Capitalization.

Rec.crafts.metalworking is unmoderated and it shows: once it was the go-to for serious metalworkers, today it is a virtual wasteland of racist rants, political looney tunes ravings, and rarely an on-topic post. Some say Gunner killed RCM. I would agree with that.

PStechPaul
05-27-2014, 06:28 PM
Even I remember Gunner, although I only briefly lurked on that usenet newsgroup. He was like Phil Allison of sci.electronics.design, or Jerry Howe of rec.pets.dogs.behavior. There are still some good discussions in the electronics groups, but dogs, not so much. Probably a similar case for metalworking. There are also some "characters" on some of the computer groups for PHP, Perl, and HTML.

Highpower
05-27-2014, 08:15 PM
Yes, he was fun to torment.

Not that I would EVER do something like that... Never... Not me... Nope...

I stumbled upon some of his YouTube videos when doing a search for something else. Based on the comments sections the torment continues....

PStechPaul
05-27-2014, 09:11 PM
I don't think I've come across any of Airsmith's threads, so I had to search, and found this interesting archive:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-46305.html

Most of it was about spelling and grammar. I happen to be pretty good at those skills and I also have the ability to proofread. Plus I have the spellchecker installed (and sometimes I have to correct it and add to its dictionary). But I realize that there are many facets to the mind and everyone has a unique set of cerebral "wiring" that makes them who they are. And forums have members from many countries and their ESL is much better than I could hope for in their native tongue. It would be a dull world if everyone thought alike and did things the same way and never tried new things or made mistakes.

mattthemuppet
05-27-2014, 09:31 PM
A copy of Zen and the art of motocycle repair must be on your bookshelf
Mark

Hey I like that book, read it several times and I'm still not sure I understand it!

Anyway, why are we talking about The Offspring? Haven't listened to them in ages.

My father's lessons to me

1 don't hit something with a hammer that you can't fix, including your brother

2 don't piss off your mother

Worked out well for me

alanganes
05-27-2014, 10:02 PM
Gunner...is that you?

For those of you who don't know what- or- who I'm referring to, the rec.crafts.metalworking newsgroup had a guy (still does, actually) famous for his wildly off-topic rants and over-the-top-brags. Old Hat seems to use Gunner's style of poor spelling, bad syntax, poor punctuation, and inappropriate Capitalization.

Rec.crafts.metalworking is unmoderated and it shows: once it was the go-to for serious metalworkers, today it is a virtual wasteland of racist rants, political looney tunes ravings, and rarely an on-topic post. Some say Gunner killed RCM. I would agree with that.

That was one of the first places I found when I first got internet access. Huge pool of knowledge and great mix of personalities. I read that group daily for years until the slide into the sewer. It's where I first encountered our own Sir John. It was one of the best groups on usenet IMHO.
Gunner was certainly opinionated (to put it mildly...) and one to provoke lots of response, but at least he had some actual metalworking knowledge to share and was known to spontaneously help out the folks who hung out there. On several occasions he sent me parts and stuff I was looking for and asked nothing in return. There were plenty of others there that served no function but to stir the pot with stupid political rants, racist remarks and stuff intended to ruin the place. If you spent much time there, you must remember "Cliff H"...

A shame really. A few times per year I check in and still recognize a few of the people who make the odd useful post. The useful posts seem very few and far between though.

KJ1I
05-27-2014, 10:43 PM
My father's lessons to me

1 don't hit something with a hammer that you can't fix, including your brother

2 don't piss off your mother

My father's were:

1) Don't piss off your mother.

2) Hitting your brother will piss off your mother.

3) A table saw is perfectly able to cut off the end of your thumb, and here's the stub to prove it.

My gut still clenches every time I fire up the table saw. I was in the shop with him when thumb contacted blade.

J Tiers
05-27-2014, 11:18 PM
Has hobbyists of widely varying interest and talents.
YES, was what I hoped to find in the first place.
BUT.
You go first , str8 answer.
What's the thing here ?> 0201 2002 2603 1102 0404 0707 2402 7102 <
I've tryed to see it but can't.
Then I'll go.

0101 1501 0201 0102 1901 1499 2001 0401 1401 2201 2601 2033 2155 1901 1499

JRouche
05-28-2014, 02:39 AM
0101 1501 0201 0102 1901 1499 2001 0401 1401 2201 2601 2033 2155 1901 1499


Quote Originally Posted by Old Hat View Post
Has hobbyists of widely varying interest and talents.
YES, was what I hoped to find in the first place.
BUT.
You go first , str8 answer.
What's the thing here ?> 0201 2002 2603 1102 0404 0707 2402 7102 <
I've tryed to see it but can't.
Then I'll go.



Hahaha.. Old Hat? You didnt quote it correctly. You have WAY too many even numbers in there. JR

Highpower
05-28-2014, 05:36 AM
I don't think I've come across any of Airsmith's threads, so I had to search, and found this interesting archive:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-46305.html


You have no idea of what a Pandora's Box is contained in that archive Paul. Those were the days of legends. :p

mike4
05-28-2014, 06:13 AM
I can bull**** at times but occasionally its entertaining to listen to experts.

Or to put it another way its easy to criticise but not so easy to do the job in the first place.

Michael

Sparky_NY
05-28-2014, 08:00 AM
Has hobbyists of widely varying interest and talents.
YES, was what I hoped to find in the first place.
BUT.
You go first , str8 answer.
What's the thing here ?> 0201 2002 2603 1102 0404 0707 2402 7102 <
I've tryed to see it but can't.
Then I'll go.

To entangle and mutilate math for our kids goes beyond criminal.
http://news.yahoo.com/2-2-parents-ra...060635222.html





Yes, everyone has varying interests and talents BUT this is a machining forum ! You seem to have a big interest in math along with writing extremely long posts that few (if any) seem to have the slightest hint of what you are trying to say. I have no idea what you "hoped to find here in the first place" but its pretty obvious it wasn't machining related.

Or... its as simple as forgetting the Medications some days.

( I just can't wait to see Sir John's comment to this thread !! Now there is a man with talent ! )

boslab
05-28-2014, 08:28 AM
Sir john by proxy
Clumsy Bastard
At least thats my guess
Mark

dp
05-28-2014, 11:07 AM
The difference between Airsmith and his tormenters is Airsmith always did the best he could, cognition be damned. For those of us who recognized the source of his problems it was a difficult thing to watch the pile-ons. More characteristic of middle school than a forum for adults. Nobody has anything to be proud of from that chapter of HSM and it is appalling that people are still dancing in his ashes. My dog in the fight is I have a sister who suffered the same things for the same reason and she seldom ever heard a kind word in her life which was ended far too soon. I yield the soap box.

mattthemuppet
05-28-2014, 11:27 AM
My father's were:

1) Don't piss off your mother.

2) Hitting your brother will piss off your mother.

3) A table saw is perfectly able to cut off the end of your thumb, and here's the stub to prove it.

My gut still clenches every time I fire up the table saw. I was in the shop with him when thumb contacted blade.

ooh, that's spooky, if it weren't for the thumb thing I would have thought I found a new brother :)

DP - I'm sorry to hear that, no one deserves to be treated with anything less than kindness, no matter what their difficulties.

Rosco-P
05-28-2014, 11:44 AM
The difference between Airsmith and his tormenters is Airsmith always did the best he could, cognition be damned. For those of us who recognized the source of his problems it was a difficult thing to watch the pile-ons.
DP, truly sorry for the loss of your sister.

What was the source of his (Airsmith's) problems?

Were readers to post nothing as he stated how he polished the interior of small rings on the lathe with abrasive wrapped around his finger? That's just one example of his foolishness. You may want to consider that there are people who view every read on the Internet, especially items posted in a forum to be the gospel truth.

Black Forest
05-28-2014, 11:54 AM
Actually Airsmith and Old Hat are a lot the same. They both expected just because they said something it must be so and accepted as such. When it was questioned then the insults started flying.

dp
05-28-2014, 12:03 PM
It would be inappropriate to discuss his personal life given he's no longer welcome here. I think we both know it is reasonable to suggest safe practices and many of us even know how to do it without ad hominem broadsides. The problem of what is perceived as truth on the internet is an entirely different problem that we with our best intentions are unable to reverse.

flylo
05-28-2014, 12:23 PM
My thoughts exactly but something is lost in all that wisdom by misspelling. No offense but I would think you could at least use spell check when writing the holy grail.


Don't see much reason to "swing away". You do your thing and I do mine. I don't have (or take) the time to figure out the meaning of life; I'm just too busy living it.

I too am getting old, and along with age comes a certain amount of inherent wisdom. But I learned a long time ago that I cannot impart my wisdom on others that do not wish to absorb it. I also do not attempt to do so in a place (this forum for example) where there is no useful reason to do so. There are many forums out there for deep thinkers. I think there are a few thinkers here, but by in large we seem to be deep doers (is that a real word?).

So, while I appreciate your attempt at greater wisdom, all of which may be undeniable; alas, it was wasted on me. It was simply too long and hard to read. I get more knowledge by one -liners and quickies. Things like "sticks and stones...". Now THAT, my friend, is true wisdom in a nutshell.

Peace

RichR
05-28-2014, 12:25 PM
I think we both know it is reasonable to suggest safe practices and many of us even know how to do it without ad hominem broadsides.
Agreed, it's not just what you say. How you say it is important too. You may not be able to change someone who insists on dangerous practices, but posting
a clear and rational warning to other readers as to why they should not follow those practices is always appropriate.

Rosco-P
05-28-2014, 12:43 PM
My thoughts exactly but something is lost in all that wisdom by misspelling. No offense but I would think you could at least use spell check when writing the holy grail.

Even that simple suggestion was ignored.

dp
05-28-2014, 12:46 PM
... but posting
a clear and rational warning to other readers as to why they should not follow those practices is always appropriate.

I have this problem with that. It presumes there are people here that are using dangerous machines that cannot sort this out for themselves, and that anything we might say will make a difference to them. These advisories tend to be heavy handed based on history. I'm seeing nothing but futility, unsolicited advice with all attendant controversies, and a hint of arrogance in that path when it is indistinguishable from browbeating.

I agree that mentoring is an excellent practice and nobody does it better I think, than Keith Fenner. His videos frequently contain passages of best practices that are given in-line, clearly sensible, non-confrontational, and presented in a "there are many ways to do this, here's what works for me" fashion and he leaves it at that. No knock-on debate/bickering.

chipmaker4130
05-28-2014, 01:20 PM
. . .I can only say, they insisted I cleared my head of pre-dispositions,
every time I face a new situation. . .

Near as I can tell, this is 90% of your original post. I agree with that much.

Paul Alciatore
05-28-2014, 01:36 PM
One thing that I love about this board is you guys can turn any subject into an interesting discussion.

lynnl
05-28-2014, 02:20 PM
The difference between Airsmith and his tormenters is Airsmith always did the best he could, cognition be damned. For those of us who recognized the source of his problems it was a difficult thing to watch the pile-ons. More characteristic of middle school than a forum for adults. Nobody has anything to be proud of from that chapter of HSM and it is appalling that people are still dancing in his ashes. My dog in the fight is I have a sister who suffered the same things for the same reason and she seldom ever heard a kind word in her life which was ended far too soon. I yield the soap box.

DP, you're a fine one to preach about piling on.
I recall a few years back, when YOD made what you deemed an unacceptable, politically incorrect comment; long after he apologized and the matter should have been left to rest, you kept beating your drums and demanding a pound of his flesh.

jep24601
05-28-2014, 02:54 PM
One thing that I love about this board is you guys can turn any subject into an interesting discussion.

You call this drivel interesting? Had to look to see what was of interest for 5 pages. Sheesh!