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Old Hat
07-07-2014, 08:10 AM
There was a time when I thought I'd have the discretionary income and time
to follow up on a notion I know can be brought to life. It's unlikely it will ever happen
for me anyway, so here's the Idea. It would have been the next step in Planer evolution
accept that horizontal slotting mills led to flutted cutters run on the same arbors.
At the same time Shapers were being fitted with separate heads with quills and spindles,
and even grinding heads. Grinding heads were also being put on Planers, in place of the tool-heads
in the same fassion as with Shapers. Ever notice how a Bridgeport (knee-mill) looks like a Shaper
accept that a milling head is now on the ram instead the tool-head.
Horizontal Boring Bars were found to be able to use stub arbors with fluted cutters to acheive
surface cutting that only Planers used to do. Tool Grinding machinery now made it possible
to make cutters for dovetails that again only planers used to do.
The Planer's destiny now became that of the Planer-mill. Rockford took that concept to
the pinnacel in the US. Today the Bridge-Mill is it's high-tech decendant with a ram
that travels beyond the work envelope to accept a variaty of fitted spindle-heads from "the dog-house".
A Gantry mill is an inside out cousin of the Bridge-Mill but a decendant of the Planer too.

Back to the Idea. A planer evolved into a machine that cuts only on the forestroke.
The backstroke is wasted time, energy, and motion. This was only reasonable as
just about everything that cut metal to that time cut only on the forstroke. Files, hacksaws,
power Hacksaws, you name it. So by the time mechanizm refinement and application got to the point
where a planer could be fitted to cut in both directions, the whole build was set in stone,
and there was little point in going down that road when Milling macines were all the rage.

I watched a Linotype actually run as a child. My Grandpa was the guy who kept them going.
My destiny was set. I'm fascinated with what mechanizms can do, if conceived and built correctly.
I've seen injection molds that put one color plastic along side another and fill it in with rubber.
I've seen cam controlled machinery like wireform tooling that blows the mind.
I've built pnuematic actators that would amaze you. The designs for which amazed me.

I still would love to take a good solid high end Planer, and re-fit it to cut on both strokes.
One way uses a double faced bit that assumes a mirrored seat on the reverce stroke.
Another swaps out two separate bits, and would have to be more complex. BUT it could
be used to provide ruffing on one stroke and smoothing (finishing) on the other stroke,
that cutter being far more exagerated like as in the classic Smoothing tool grind geometry.
Naturally it would follow with some offsetting, and would require a more refined set-up.

Is it needed? NO! Would it proove anything? NO! But nobody needs to build Choo Choos.
Nobody needs to reinact the Cival War. Nobody needs build and shoot Blackpowder Rifels.
If nobody ever does this it won't matter, but I have looked at some impressive efforts
on this and other forums, that serve no usefull profittable purpose beyond . . . .
. . . Beyond the incredible enrichment of the Souls that cary out those efforts,
and the folks who walk up in awe at shows and exhibitions to see this stuff.

So why not suggest it?

ammcoman2
07-07-2014, 09:02 AM
Back in '66 I was doing a training stint in a large turbine/generator factory. The planers used to mill the turbine casings were huge - at least a 30' stroke. They had fitted a roughly 12" face mill to the machine in place of the regular cutter head. It cut on both the forward and reverse stroke.

As an aside I remember the operator of one of these machines telling me that he organised the job so that on a Monday morning he could just hit the start button. He could then nurse his hangover from the weekend and feed the shop cat that lived under the planer bed!

Geoff

vpt
07-07-2014, 09:29 AM
Back in '66 I was doing a training stint in a large turbine/generator factory. The planers used to mill the turbine casings were huge - at least a 30' stroke. They had fitted a roughly 12" face mill to the machine in place of the regular cutter head. It cut on both the forward and reverse stroke.

Geoff

This is what I thought of right away, put a power head in place of the stationary cutter. Then use an endmill or what have you in the head so then the material gets cut in every direction you move it.

vpt
07-07-2014, 09:30 AM
On another note, did you just happen to score a metal planer for say $90 lately Old Hat?

jlevie
07-07-2014, 09:31 AM
I can see a problem with a fixed cutter with fore/aft cutting faces. One face will always be dragging and that will wear off that edge. It would seem to me that a single cutting face mounted in a holder that can index 180deg and lock at the end of each stroke would be a better solution. That should not be all that tough to make.

I saw, years ago, something similar in a shop that specialized in rebuilding big machines. The planer could handle something about 40' long and was mostly home built. They had an indexable cutter for passes in both directions when hogging off waste, but the finish passes were uni-directional. Most of the machine was hydraulically powered with a fixed table and moving gantry. They claimed to hold less than 0.001" error in 40'. Though how they proved that was beyond me.

Old Hat
07-07-2014, 10:22 AM
I can see a problem with a fixed cutter with fore/aft cutting faces. One face will always be dragging and that will wear off that edge. It would seem to me that a single cutting face mounted in a holder that can index 180deg and lock at the end of each stroke would be a better solution. That should not be all that tough to make.
The double-faced bit would also have to assume a mirrored clearence angle or (back-off) like an insert which is flipped for 3-4 more indexes.
This would require a compound change over of position not just a rocking to the reverse orientation... You are correct, but's it's do-able!



They had an indexable cutter for passes in both directions when hogging off waste, but the finish passes were uni-directional. Most of the machine was hydraulically powered with a fixed table and moving gantry. They claimed to hold less than 0.001" error in 40'. Though how they proved that was beyond me.

How an accurate bed is created and used is basicly self-proving. Like lapping two surfaces plates to "truth."
I have no dout their claim was valid.

PS !
Thank You for the supportive evidence you contributed!!

Old Hat
07-07-2014, 10:36 AM
On another note, did you just happen to score a metal planer for say $90 lately Old Hat?

No, I would need a Planer over twice that size to make the effort worth do-ing.
I would want to actually do some real work on it and would need a bigger envelope.

A side Note:
Someone asked if a Planer was accurate enuff to do cylinder heads.
Most certainly as regards the planer's performance parameters.
HOW-EVER:
From the vids I've seen from owners of planers. Using most insertables is not going to work.
And a smoothing tool is something I have never seen ground correctly or applied correctly
in any vids I've found. Further the cutting edge is way to far foreward of the pivot in the clapper,
on all of these vids. This causes dig, leaving an entrance ridge at every opening on the part.

Planers and Shapers were intended to use gooseneck tooling to situate the cutting edge
just barely ahead of the pivot pin in the clapper box.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p92/swadge/PlanerBit_zps0378c829.png (http://s126.photobucket.com/user/swadge/media/PlanerBit_zps0378c829.png.html)

Old Hat
07-07-2014, 11:07 AM
I'm providing evidence of even insertable gooseneck tooling for your enlightenment.
It's on ebay, (not mine) I'm not linking to it to stay within guidelines here.

http://i.ebayimg.com/19/!CEvLLQ!!Wk~$(KGrHqYOKpkE0UrYTb2-BNSy2G)18Q~~_12.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/11/!CEvLR9Q!Wk~$(KGrHqQOKjwE0+sooBwMBNSy2b0rr!~~_12.J PG
http://i.ebayimg.com/14/!CEvLVu!Bmk~$(KGrHqEOKkME0UwvUZV3BNSy2oNGSQ~~_12.J PG

Sun God
07-07-2014, 11:08 AM
As I get older, my ideas get planer...

Old Hat
07-07-2014, 11:13 AM
I get sharper with age, but I'm prone to vibration and popping out of gear.:(

Another gooseneck.
http://i.ebayimg.com/02/!CEvLhgQBGk~$(KGrHqQOKo0E0flOvQubBNSy3Mb0C!~~_12.J PG
http://i.ebayimg.com/24/!CEvLqr!CGk~$(KGrHqIOKm8Ez36WsE)QBNSy3jYCnQ~~_12.J PG

Arthur.Marks
07-07-2014, 12:53 PM
Okay, I'll add to the pondering :)
So what if the clapper box had a limited range with a hard stop at either position? Say, 10 degrees or less swivel. Then one bit could have the normal front clearance ground in for either side. The clearance angles meet in an inverted "v" shape... like this: l∧l I am assuming this is a planer large enough to use at least a solid 3/8" or 1/2" HSS square tool bit. There would be no dragging with this tool design, right? The minor angle past 90 degrees for each stroke of the clapper could easily be corrected on the cutting tool during grinding the top face. For example, if the clapper goes 5 degrees past vertical, the HSS bit would be ground with a 5 degree positive rake. This would result in a neutral rake cutting action.

Old Hat
07-07-2014, 01:01 PM
You have it right.
I kinda did a broad brush on the main post.
In fact many bright minds have allready played with various pull-back inovations
for cutters like club foot cutters for T-slots.

That's Cool! What I call Dynamic Mental Modeling on your part Arthur !!!

Obviously planing to a wall needs consideration but
it allready does with conventional Planer set-up.

Arthur.Marks
07-07-2014, 01:12 PM
Ah, you replied while I was sketching ;) I realized in drawing it out that the clapper could not have the standard 'lantern toolpost.' It would have to be a broached solid if any hope of rigidity was to be retained. Have a look:
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/clapper2_zps2a1928f0.jpg (http://s771.photobucket.com/user/Arrak_Thumrs/media/Widgets/clapper2_zps2a1928f0.jpg.html)

Old Hat
07-07-2014, 01:41 PM
Bravo Arthur ! I can use EDM to chew out anything in the way.... of course that wouldn't be a 'Purist effort' mind you.:o

justanengineer
07-07-2014, 02:32 PM
I could be mistaken, but I believe someone already did this on one of the reversible push/pull cutting shapers....Klopp maybe?

Baz
07-07-2014, 05:54 PM
The reason shapers and planers work so well is that by only working in one direction all the slop is taken up consistently each time.

Old Hat
07-08-2014, 02:44 AM
Thinking about all the differing versions of Boring Bars, and what is inherently better
about each for differing work. Well planers and shapers edge in that direction too.

On a floor Bar the work is stationary, and the cariage, head, quil and ram,moves.
On a semi floor Bar or (traveling table Bar) the table 'X' moves with the part on it.

On a Planer the table moves with the part on it, the cutter does not.
A Shaper the cutter moves the part does not.
And with boring bars about 5 other variations.

I mention this because there was a very specialised machine
I'll call a Radial Rail Planer... Only because I don't know
what it's real name is.
Some-one did get it put on the interwebs, can't remember if it
was a set of still shots, or footage.

It had a large round table like that of a Vertical Boring Mill.
A ship's screw, (propeller) was mounted hub down.
On a bridge much like that over a Vertical Boring Mill
was a rail mounted planer head.
On this rail a tool head (with bit) shaped the blades of the propeller
from the outer edge to the hub working down helically.

I bet a Planer could have had a rail-mounted cutter working a stationary part,
instead of a table needing a bed twice it's lenght and carying the full combined
weight of the table and the part.

This along those lines but not nearly as big. Still cool though.
http://books.google.com/books?id=k3IfAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA242&lpg=PA242&dq=ship+propeller+cut+on+a+planer&source=bl&ots=Bap8oiPMEF&sig=XxqluQgLUR6FXqNo9PLOEkns_44&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GpS7U7vlH8ufyATZ4YCACQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA

thistle
07-08-2014, 05:05 PM
Good old Mr Whitworth had this figured out in 1842 or there abouts.
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/i022/10284862.aspx

As has been said there are practical reasons why planers and shapers cut in one direction, and the fact that since 1842 the trend has been to cut in one direction should tell something.

oil mac
07-08-2014, 06:26 PM
Old Hat,
In the U.K. From about 1890 up until the 1960 period, in Birmingham, the late firm of Kendal & Gent produced an enormous range of "Plano Milling Machines", many of these machines being of a very large size, The configuration of these machines was that of a double column planer with a milling head on the cross rail, Also these machines had milling heads also which could traverse up the guides on the side cheeks This gave a machine which could machine the sides of a casting or forging, plus the top faces , all at the same time , As can be imagined the speed of traverse of the table was that of a typical feed rate that one would find on any other conventional machine tool.

Up until approx. 1970 in the West of Scotland, the late firm of Loudon & Co of Johnston in Renfrewshire were still manufacturing planning machines many of a particularly large size, With these machines one could order a set of milling heads for the cross rail & the side columns, Thus converting these fine machines into a big milling machine, ( I forgot to say a special gear was also supplied to slow down the rapid speed of the table traverse & thus convert it into a feed rate.

Where Europe was concerned, by and large for big milling machines which had a boring head fitted also, the German firm of Sharman were very prominent in this field in the 1960 era Also in this era, Butler of Halifax England made a very handy & strange milling machine of heavy proportion called an "Elga Mill" which was revolutionary in its concept

Old Hat
07-09-2014, 03:22 AM
Good old Mr Whitworth had this figured out in 1842 or there abouts.
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/i022/10284862.aspx

As has been said there are practical reasons why planers and shapers cut in one direction, and the fact that since 1842
the trend has been to cut in one direction should tell something.

A trend led most of the world to face the lathe tool-bit up lifting the spindle.
I had the good fortune of training under an imagrant from Germany who showed me how
faceing the tool down solves several issues. Infact there are steady-rests that have no top.

A trend put props on the front of aircraft.
Much is gained by putting it behind the plane.
I'm not one that pays much attention to trends.

Old Hat
07-09-2014, 03:26 AM
Thank You, I enjoyed that!

I'll hunt up those names you posted this week-end.
http://www.wotol.com/images/thumbs/800x800/566715_f48e9b3f823c848abd0684d42bd4ec33.jpg

ammcoman2
07-09-2014, 08:52 AM
The ones I observed working in my earlier reply were exactly as Oil Mac mentioned. And, similar to the photo you posted above - only much larger. The training stint I did was in Manchester, UK.

Geoff

thistle
07-09-2014, 02:37 PM
A trend put props on the front of aircraft.
Much is gained by putting it behind the plane.
I'm not one that pays much attention to trends.



You are bringing airplanes to planer /shaper fight?
How does the rear propellor work out for egress via parachute then?

Old Hat
07-09-2014, 02:39 PM
Puree' ?
Smoothie' ?

thistle
07-09-2014, 03:33 PM
chunks

oil mac
07-09-2014, 07:03 PM
Thanks for the photograph of the big Rockford old hat, It is a powerful looking machine, About thirty odd years ago, I wandered into the works of Hutson's at Kelvinhaugh Engine works in Glasgow, In that factory, they had an extremely large Loudon planer, which had been built originally for john Brown & co of Clydebank the famous shipbuilders, This machine was the biggest planer Loudon's ever built in Clyde Works Johnston, & was completed in the late 1930/s, It was a giant of a machine, Loudon's had built a much bigger machine also before the last war period, for The Red October Locomotive Works in Russia, This machine was so huge the build was sub contracted to the enormous engineering works of Sir William Beardmore & Co also in Glasgow Sadly all these old works are now gone!

Back to the big planer in Hutson's , When I visited the works the works manager was checking the alignment of the table for two tenths of a thousands of an inch error due to settlement in the foundation, over thirty feet stroke ! Planers can be extremely accurate machines, Even the little 20" stroke machine I own, is a accurate & wonderful little machine tool

Old Hat
07-10-2014, 02:22 AM
You are bringing airplanes to planer /shaper fight?
How does the rear propellor work out for egress via parachute then?

In 4 decades I did finally crash my Mitsubishi Bar about two years ago while training.
Machine got hurt, Cat 50 needed a regrind, but I faired OK
even without a parachute, I landed on my feet.

Badly bruised ego though.:(

Old Hat
07-10-2014, 02:28 AM
Planers can be extremely accurate machines, Even the little 20" stroke machine I own,
is a accurate & wonderful little machine tool

Planers are accurate by nature. Like a DeVieg boring bar, the bed is longer than the moving table.
The crossrail is longer than the moving sadle. Battle won before it starts.
That's why a knee-mill is the weakest design of all milling machines.