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View Full Version : Radial Engine Destruction...What Caused This?



john hobdeclipe
07-15-2014, 08:39 PM
I came back from an auction last Saturday night with two cylinder / head assemblies from Pratt & Whitney R2800 radial engines. Both of the assemblies have major damage, but this one intrigues me. I know that something of this nature can happen if the prop is not pulled through enough to get the oil out of the lower cylinders, but what else may have caused this?

In the first pic you can see the whole assembly, with the chunk ripped out of the cylinder:

http://www.auldooly.com/imagehost/P7150438-14.jpg

And this pic shows in a bit more detail the broken cylinder:

http://www.auldooly.com/imagehost/P7150439-14.jpg

And this third pic shows the chunk that was ripped out of the cylinder, plus some of the stripped / bent / snapped studs that hold the cylinder onto the crank case.

http://www.auldooly.com/imagehost/P7150441-14.jpg

In doing a bit of research I found that the P&W R2800 was an eighteen cylinder, double row engine that was used on many different aircraft during its production run (1939 - 1960) including the Hellcat, Corsair, and B-26 Marauder during the 2nd World War.

I also found this link to a video of a cutaway engine in motion.

http://andersonaeromotive.net/pratt-whitney-r-2800-double-wasp-cutaway/

So...other than too much oil left in the lower cylinders upon start-up, what else could have caused this cylinder to blow out of the crank case?

CalM
07-15-2014, 09:40 PM
bent studs?

Think collision.

Gear up landing perhaps?

A tug backed ito the parked aircraft while it sat on some lonely ramp in the middle of nowhere??

A.K. Boomer
07-15-2014, 11:43 PM
what's the inside of the head look like?

tell you the truth that's one thin flange to mount a cylinder on, no matter how many bolts...

cast iron can be brittle as all hell, if a cylinder was running too lean and an exhaust valve dropped on one side of the head I could see it "popping the top off of the popper" so to speak...

koda2
07-16-2014, 12:12 AM
Improper torque of the cylinder bolts is one way to shuck an aircraft cylinder. The torque procedure is specialized and must be followed religiously.
Looks like the rest of the cylinder, i.e. the aluminum upper component is not damaged.
The bottom is probably not cast iron but more likely hi strength steel. That is how the standard recip engines are built. The cylinder head is aluminum and is screwed on and tightened with a 4 ft wrench immediately after the head comes out of the oven. It is a shrink fit. Amazing (to me anyway) to watch.

boslab
07-16-2014, 12:26 AM
I know its an outsider but sucking in water destroyed a local farmers land rover, cylynder looked like it was blown out the side
Mark

Paul Alciatore
07-16-2014, 03:04 AM
What could cause this? From below, "...during the 2nd World War". How about enemy machine gun fire?

I am genuinely curious, just why did you buy them? Some kind of collection? Scrap metal?




I came back from an auction last Saturday night with two cylinder / head assemblies from Pratt & Whitney R2800 radial engines. Both of the assemblies have major damage, but this one intrigues me. I know that something of this nature can happen if the prop is not pulled through enough to get the oil out of the lower cylinders, but what else may have caused this?

In the first pic you can see the whole assembly, with the chunk ripped out of the cylinder:

http://www.auldooly.com/imagehost/P7150438-14.jpg

And this pic shows in a bit more detail the broken cylinder:

http://www.auldooly.com/imagehost/P7150439-14.jpg

And this third pic shows the chunk that was ripped out of the cylinder, plus some of the stripped / bent / snapped studs that hold the cylinder onto the crank case.

http://www.auldooly.com/imagehost/P7150441-14.jpg

In doing a bit of research I found that the P&W R2800 was an eighteen cylinder, double row engine that was used on many different aircraft during its production run (1939 - 1960) including the Hellcat, Corsair, and B-26 Marauder during the 2nd World War.

I also found this link to a video of a cutaway engine in motion.

http://andersonaeromotive.net/pratt-whitney-r-2800-double-wasp-cutaway/

So...other than too much oil left in the lower cylinders upon start-up, what else could have caused this cylinder to blow out of the crank case?

dian
07-16-2014, 03:25 AM
does the top of the piston get below the damaged area? in that case it might be water, although you usually bend a rod.

Weston Bye
07-16-2014, 07:01 AM
Apparently, this sort of thing can just "happen". The flying club I was in while in the Navy had a T-34 with a horizontally opposed engine. One of the guys was taxiing out for a takeoff when the engine began ticking. He shut it down and had it towed back to the hangar. Subsequent inspection revealed a developing condition similar to that reported in the OP.

Tony Ennis
07-16-2014, 07:32 AM
The engine is also known as the 'double wasp'. I am curious why you bought them. Or rather, carried them home.

A.K. Boomer
07-16-2014, 09:57 AM
The bottom is probably not cast iron but more likely hi strength steel.

Iv never seen steel break like that unless it was hit with liquid nitrogen first...

and just something about the way it's rusting looks cast to me too. could be wrong though...


To the OP, Did you know the cylinders position on the block? was it a lower one?

the engines were dry sump but if they sat they could bleed oil down into the lowest cylinder past the rings and when someone went to fire it up it could hydrostatic lock,,, ?

krutch
07-16-2014, 11:00 AM
One of those engines is at the Antique Airfield Museum outside of Blakesburg, Iowa in cut away condition. Very complicated machine. What caused the damage, I can't say for sure. Metal fatigue? The cylinders are on the engine body in offset position from the next one and the engine is about three or four feet long not in line as most radial engines like the Stearman engines. The engine used in the Japanese Zero had two banks of cylinders, one bank behind and offset for air flow cooling. The PW R2800 cylinders were set in a spiral configuration. Not sure how a gear up landing would get a cylinder. But Stranger things happen.
Extent of my knowledge on this.

CarlByrns
07-16-2014, 12:03 PM
the engines were dry sump but if they sat they could bleed oil down into the lowest cylinder past the rings and when someone went to fire it up it could hydrostatic lock,,, ?

Standard radial engine start up includes pulling the engine through two complete revolutions by hand to check for hydrostatic lock. Not the most fun thing in the world.

johnnyd
07-16-2014, 12:34 PM
Just a wag, (wild ass guess) but I think that someone didn't follow the correct torque sequence. They may have gone back & re-tightened those bolts at a later date if they were in an easy spot to get to.

John

Dieseldoctor
07-16-2014, 12:35 PM
From looking at the few bolts/studs that are there, my guess is all the bolts/studs but the five holding that part of the flange down, either broke or loosened or both and that caused that part of the flange to break off. The picture of the bolts/studs is not real clear but it appears the cylinder had been moving on the bolts/studs for some time before the final failure. Now on an engine like that, "some time" could have been just a few minutes depending on RPM's and load.

Rich Carlstedt
07-16-2014, 02:54 PM
Several interesting facts here, in a quick analysis.
The fact that the studs broke ( as seen) means the fasteners exceeded their tensile strength
That means the jug was being pulled off the crankcase in some way.
Fact, the sleeve ( CI ?) shows fractures that mimic the fasteners location says ( to me ) that the sleeve was under tensile strain as well and failed , but held nearer the fasteners ( note the crowns , or castle like failure lines showing the major stress points.
The fact that the brerak is clean , with no bending /warping of the flange ends means Cast Iron, as steel would have bent ends near the break.

Rich

My thoughts are hydro lock as pointed out earlier, or a rod going through the crankcase, adjacent to the jugs

topct
07-16-2014, 04:33 PM
I wonder about some kind of previous accident. A sudden stoppage?, the prop hitting the ground, even just slightly. Not enough to cause concern at the time but should have. And then after repairs to the visual damage to the aircraft if any, and even normal rotations before starting, nothing makes itself evident, then, BANG!

Hope it wasn't in the air when it happened.

bobm4360
07-16-2014, 06:17 PM
The cylinder barrels are heat-treated 4140. This was a known failure mechanism with all P&W radials, and was addressed by the FAA in 1956 in Airworthiness Directive 56-06-02, and by Pratt & Whitney in Service Bulletin 1000. If the cylinder was a rear cylinder, the initial stud failure could have gone undetected until the cylinder failed. With this failure, especially on a 2800, the engine could have kept running and the failure was noticed by a mech because of the excessive oil on the inside of the cowling (or on the hangar floor).
Regards,
Bob (Round engine mech)

A.K. Boomer
07-16-2014, 06:31 PM
The cylinder barrels are heat-treated 4140.
Regards,
Bob (Round engine mech)

Very heat treated to break the way they did, but sounds like you and koda are in the know,,,

that's some hard 4140 to look like cast iron when it breaks because cast i. almost looks like stone when split... very grainy

john hobdeclipe
07-16-2014, 10:59 PM
Thanks for the thoughts on this.

The inside of the cylinder & head looks OK except for some streaks of abrasion up and down part of the cylinder wall...not sure if I can get a decent pic of that. The valves are intact.

Why did i buy them? Because they were there. Stuff like this always piques my curiosity. Eventually they will end up as some sort of decoration...perhaps topping the posts on either side of the driveway gate...who knows. Whenever the Collings Foundation shows up with their vintage aircraft I typically spend quite a bit of time at the display asking all kinds of questions about all kinds of stuff.

*********


The cylinder barrels are heat-treated 4140. This was a known failure mechanism with all P&W radials, and was addressed by the FAA in 1956 in Airworthiness Directive 56-06-02, and by Pratt & Whitney in Service Bulletin 1000. If the cylinder was a rear cylinder, the initial stud failure could have gone undetected until the cylinder failed. With this failure, especially on a 2800, the engine could have kept running and the failure was noticed by a mech because of the excessive oil on the inside of the cowling (or on the hangar floor).
Regards,
Bob (Round engine mech)

Fascinating...that's kind of what I wanted to learn about.

There are some numbers stamped into the side of one of the rocker boxes. Can anything be determined from them as far as date of manufacture?

**********

I had wondered about the possibility of a failed exhaust valve pushrod. That would probably either push the cylinder out of the crankcase or tear up a connecting rod or both, I think.

kbertoson
07-16-2014, 11:06 PM
That may well be the cause of failure per bobm4360. I did read the AD and if the cylinder hold down nuts were loose it required studs to be replaced in the affected area. This is a link to the AD http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/FE83F7221B9305528625684F005C4868?OpenDocument&Highlight=r-2800. The R-2800 was also used on the Martin 404, Convair 240, DC-6 and various military aircraft. It had a very long and successful life. When I worked for Florida Airlines { Martin 404's} in the late 1970's we had a pile of scrap cylinders. The mode of failure was cracking across exhaust valve port. Easy to find from oil leaks or power loss. We did get good life out of the engines. As bobm is very well aware cylinder changes on radial engines kept a lot of mechanics employed.

kbertoson
07-16-2014, 11:15 PM
John, the push rods are made of aluminum with steel end caps. The valve clearance is adjusted by removing one of the caps and putting in shim washers. The piston is at TDC on compression stroke. The engine is also cold. It has been 30 years since I did this.

TGTool
07-16-2014, 11:23 PM
My sole piece of lore is second hand. I had an uncle who was a test pilot for Boeing in the 1940's, and later in life flew missions for the MAF in Africa. Some planes had P&W engines and he said you always knew the P&W engines because they were notorious oil leakers. Maybe same design philosophy as Jaguar engines in the early 50's with 16 qt oil sumps. A little more margin for the leakage.

kbertoson
07-16-2014, 11:38 PM
Yes radial engines leak and leak. When the stop leaking you are out of oil. The more hours on the engine the worse it is. The nature of the beast. It is possible to keep leaking to a minimum by washing the engine running it for leaks and replacing push rod tube seals, rocker box cover gaskets and intake seals. No matter now dry the engine is when doing a bottom rear cylinder change, the mechanic gets covered in black oil. I have limited experience on the Wright 1820 single row radial engine. Old timers said the first thing you did when bringing in an airplane with 1820's into the hanger is put the drip pans under the engines. They were notorious for leaking oil.

Robin R
07-17-2014, 03:45 PM
It's a pity the assemblies weren't in better shape or you could have done something like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND4EA0dnAM8 It's worth looking at some of the guys other video's.

J Tiers
07-17-2014, 09:34 PM
It's a pity the assemblies weren't in better shape or you could have done something like this...................... It's worth looking at some of the guys other video's.

Dual SU? Really?

Point the exhaust at the gas can? Really?

A.K. Boomer
07-17-2014, 09:42 PM
hey don't knock it, way smoother than a POS Harley and without a flywheel to boot,,, even the carb sync by hand was better quality...

but is that beast really 5 liters? damn...

john hobdeclipe
07-17-2014, 10:35 PM
...The mode of failure was cracking across exhaust valve port...

Funny, the other assembly that I have has a large crack running through the exhaust port toward the valve seat.

**************

What about the Wright Cyclones? Did they have similar tendencies, or did they have a different means of attaching the cylinders?

CarlByrns
07-18-2014, 12:06 AM
Dual SU? Really?

Point the exhaust at the gas can? Really?

Dual SU carbs are ideal for this engine- there's no chance of mixture imbalance- each jug can be dialed in separately. The exhaust isn't aimed right at the fuel can, it just looks that way. The reverse angle shot shows there is a good offset between the stack and the can.

kbertoson
07-18-2014, 01:26 PM
The Wright used a different method. I have limited experience on the 1820 engine. I do know that they used drilled head bolts into the power case. Not studs like PWA. The original method of securing them was safety wire. I have no idea how long that took to complete that task? Later somebody came up with a curved strip of sheet metal with holes in it. As I recall it covered 5 or 6 bolt heads. Then it was driven down around the heads with a long slide hammer driver. Never did change a cylinder however. We did have the tool around. When they did have 1820's. The PWA safety method was proper torque then install Pal-nuts on each nut. A Pal-Nut is thin sheet metal nut. Both Continental and Lycoming dropped use of Pal-Nuts as a safety on there engines. Extensive testing showed that they did not do anything. Proper torque was more important.

kbertoson
07-18-2014, 01:52 PM
Concerning the head exhaust port cracking. There is no idea how many heat and cooling cycles these cylinders have gone through. Also overhaul and reinstall. I did read a column written by a mechanic in a pilot magazine. This was around 1979-1980. He had worked for Pan-Am in the early 1950's. This was the peak of the big piston era. 1820's, 1830's, 2800's 3350's and the 4360. He wrote that there SOP when the engine was shut down the exhaust stacks were capped to slow the cooling down of the engine. This may of helped make the engines last on the wing.

kbertoson
07-18-2014, 02:13 PM
Safety Note: If your cylinders have valves it is unlikely anybody will be removing them without the proper valve spring compressor. I wanted to let you know that the exhaust valves are sodium filled. This is to aid heat transfer. Do not do any welding, cutting or hammering on the exhaust valves.

Paul Alciatore
07-18-2014, 03:10 PM
In your photo I see more broken studs than there are mounting holes in the piece of flange. Sounds like the studs were breaking or loosening one by one and those five, in that segment of flange, were the last five holding it. They tried, but to no avail.

DICKEYBIRD
07-18-2014, 09:31 PM
A very good friend told me stories about his older brother that worked for PanAm in the late 40's & early 50's before starting his own business overhauling the big radials, then jets later on.

Unfortunately, my friend has now passed away so I can't get all the details refreshed but as best I can recall, his brother was the one that came up with the processes to salvage the cyl. heads from trashed 2800 & 3350 jugs. When built new, the heads were heated, then threaded onto the jug & indexed. Supposedly there was no way to remove the heads in the aftermarket & fit them onto a new cylinder during overhauls. He came up with a process where the cylinder was precisely cooled by a water spray head/deflector and the head heated carefully in a controlled manner (not sure but it had to be a clamp-on oven of some kind) and a hydraulic torque wrench/fixture of some sort to unscrew it.

The other story he told was about the really bad ones that came in with the jug bases "bradded over" from in flight rod failure. The bradded jugs wouldn't come off after unbolting them from the trashed block so they removed one of the spark plugs, filled the cylinder with oxy-acetylene, screwed the plug back in & fired it off with a T-Model cracker box. The engine carcass had been first chained to a big steel beam on the back of the building and a 100 ft wire rope attached to the jug before firing off the gas mixture. The company was in Florida on the edge of a swamp so after the jug was blown off & had splashed down, they just hauled it back in and put in a box for later salvage of the valuable head.

J Tiers
07-18-2014, 11:45 PM
Dual SU carbs are ideal for this engine- there's no chance of mixture imbalance- each jug can be dialed in separately. .........

I had dual SUs on a straight 4.... each handling 2 cyl. Getting them balanced, and KEEPING them balanced was a pain, basically impossible. They were spec'd with ATF in the damper cylinders, but they liked to empty those.... then the balance went south in a hurry.

I decided that "SU", or "Skinner's Union", was wrong. They were invented by a union of British housewives. Designed specifically so that the housewives would KNOW where hubby was on the weekend.... He was trying to adjust the carburetors, not down at the pub.

jim davies
08-01-2014, 01:43 AM
>>I decided that "SU", or "Skinner's Union", was wrong. They were invented by a union of British housewives. Designed specifically so that the housewives would KNOW where hubby was on the weekend.... He was trying to adjust the carburetors, not down at the pub.

The Brits describe the SU design as "constant depression" which actually describes the mental state of anyone who routinely works on them.

The Artful Bodger
08-01-2014, 06:47 AM
I am surprised so many people seem to feel the care and maintenance of SU carbies is beyond them when really they are among the most elegant design of carburettor.

When it comes to balancing multiple SUs the first step is to disregard everything you have ever read on the subject and instead sit and think about it for a moment or two. You do not need stethoscopes, vacuum gauges or columns of mercury. All you need is an insulated screw driver and a tachometer you can read from the operating position. Many cars that were fitted with multiple SUs also had tachometers and these can be read readily enough by borrowing a good size mirror and placing that on the driver's seat.

Start the engine and get it warmed up, screw the throttle stop for faster than idle (1500 rpm or so). Short out each spark plug in turn and adjust the throttle balance between the carbs for even rev drop. Then re adjust idle speed before going down to the pub.

A.K. Boomer
08-01-2014, 08:04 AM
Boy that sounds like the long way home and inaccurate to boot since some cylinders will pull more than others due to header and intake manifold design and such,

iv used all kinds and have concluded nothings handier and faster than just using one of these, quick adjust to bring it within range and off you go...

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Edelbrock-4025-Uni-Syn-Carburetor-Synchronizing-Tool,267.html?utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=CSEGoogle&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&CAWELAID=1268485659&CAGPSPN=pla&gclid=CjwKEAjw9eyeBRCqxc_b-LD8kTESJADsBMxSgsoAor4JCPgsVvjJ321nD_ZHXcRWmbtxnEu VVH8PHxoC3Rjw_wcB


many problems with SU's are really from people not knowing much about them and either using the wrong oil and/or over filling/under filling and things like that, plus the fact that they used to need "topping off" from time to time did not help,,, one really should not have to "maintain" their carb's fluid levels after all... yet they had some real bennies for back in the day like doing away with the "accelerator pump" and things like that, and although touted as always being able to keep the mixture at an optimum ratio they seemed to be always set up way rich from the factory on just about every British car iv ever worked on but I am a mile high where im at so that most likely compounded the problem,,,

actually many cars ran very rich back then,

but when the Japanese perfected the CV diaphragm type carb it was all over for SU, really no comparison as the circuitry was more refined with more adjustments to further dial in these types of carbs throughout the entire range...

the slides were also coated with teflon and/or anodized and because they used no archaic fluids eliminated the "gummy - sticky - problematic - erratic" behavior of the typical SU style carbs --- It also gave a much faster response which was a well needed feature due to SU's earning the nick-name "slugs" on just about anything they were bolted on too, they quickly became antiquated encrusted remnants of a tattered dream... better to be talked about in their country of origin, over a warm pint of ale from people who actually like dredging up the past and like drinking warm pints of ale...

an idea that has long been surpassed but none the less you have to give credit where credit is due for the original idea and for back in the day, and now even the superior Japanese carbs take a major back seat to refined fuel injection,,,

yet still very practical for certain applications.

willmac
08-01-2014, 10:44 AM
the slides were also coated with teflon and/or anodized and because they used no archaic fluids eliminated the "gummy - sticky - problematic - erratic" behavior of the typical SU style carbs --- It also gave a much faster response which was a well needed feature due to SU's earning the nick-name "slugs" on just about anything they were bolted on too, they quickly became antiquated encrusted remnants of a tattered dream... better to be talked about in their country of origin, over a warm pint of ale from people who actually like dredging up the past and like drinking warm pints of ale...


I had to go to the SU factory on business years back. I got a tour around and it was very interesting. But back to your point... they were capable of making carbs with faster responses and with much higher tech materials and designs. One I saw was for a Rolls Royce car engine. This was gas flowed, polished and had a linear ball race arrangement for the piston. This guaranteed a stick/slip free performance. SU were owned by Morris then BL Cars, Austin Rover etc. This meant that the greatest part of their sales were to an owning company that demanded low cost, not sophistication. It also tied their future to a doomed giant.

A.K. Boomer
08-01-2014, 11:47 AM
That is interesting and does sound very refined, but better not get too responsive or someone could spill their "grey poupon":p

although im thinking responsiveness is just an illusion when you attach it to 3 tons of crap... lol

Just the same you can't blame the carb company for that...

The Artful Bodger
08-01-2014, 04:06 PM
Boy that sounds like the long way home and inaccurate to boot since some cylinders will pull more than others due to header and intake manifold design and such.

Not the long way at all... unlike other methods the rev drop scheme gets right to the issue at hand and that is having each cylinder pulling the same regardless of variations in inlet tract, exhaust path, valve timing, air filter restriction etc etc.


Your gadget also required any air filter to be removed (which changes the test environment) and of course it is a lot more expensive than an insulated screw driver.

Your gadget is only suitable for downdraft carbs which precludes most SU installations anyway.

JCHannum
08-01-2014, 04:38 PM
I don't remember pulling plug wires, but do remember something to do with watching the tach while synchronizing SU's.

I had an MGA first and then an Austin Healey with three SU's and do recall doing something with one end of a piece of fuel line stuck in my ear and the other in the carb throat while lifting the piston though I don't recall the entire procedure as it has been 40 years or more now.

J Tiers
08-01-2014, 04:58 PM
I am surprised so many people seem to feel the care and maintenance of SU carbies is beyond them when really they are among the most elegant design of carburettor.



Your method works great....

For the 10 minutes during which the damper fluid is at the right fill level, and so forth.... it is fine After 20 min run time, the fluid is at some other lower level, and the carbs are happily doing whatever they please..... normally not together, and nothing at all like what you expected....

The method workls since both must be reasonably synched if they each run their part of the engine at the same conditions. Possible to fool that maybe, but normally it should be as good as you need to get.

Over-teching lets perfect be the enemy of good.

The Artful Bodger
08-01-2014, 05:05 PM
Radishes! If you are loosing damper fluid you should fix that fault first.

The most pernickety car we ever had was one of these..

http://www.carjam.co.nz/p/100/800/0/810655.jpg

358 cc three cylinder two stroke with three tiny carbs. The engine was so small that turning on the headlights while idling would have the alternator load stall the engine. But it could run 120kph all day and go around corners without hesitation.

The rev drop method worked well and gave a silky smooth idle on the Suzuki.


But my introduction to SUs was one of these..
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4112/5062750862_5f4375d9a6_z.jpg

...the rev drop method worked well on the Riley too.

topct
08-01-2014, 05:07 PM
Most problems I've had ever had with them were usually solved by returning them to factory settings. (Besides the oil thing.) They were not the perfect carburetor no matter what you did. There is no such thing. Too many adjustments, to easy to do, so easy to foul up.

A.K. Boomer
08-01-2014, 05:31 PM
Not the long way at all... unlike other methods the rev drop scheme gets right to the issue at hand and that is having each cylinder pulling the same regardless of variations in inlet tract, exhaust path, valve timing, air filter restriction etc etc.


including weak cylinders that are low on compression and already burning oil? "come on --- chop chop no time to waste -- whaaappp (sound of a whip cracking on the weakest ponies arss bringing it too its knee's":p

and in fact by the time you already get around to "tuning" the others your first ones are already dragging arss due to running the rings in diluted oil full of gas,,, so RPM drops on the later ones might be a little more drastic when pulling the plug wires on them just from the extra friction of the previous cylinders,,, just saying,,, it hardly is some kind of "fine tune compensating method" when your creating critical unequal situations in the chambers themselves...

diluting ones cylinder bores with raw fuel should never be part of a regular carb sync. method, at least not the way we generally do things over here in the states...

not knocking it if I was stranded out in the middle of nowhere and didn't have any tools I guess...


Your gadget also required any air filter to be removed (which changes the test environment) and of course it is a lot more expensive than an insulated screw driver.

well yes but if your filter or filters actually restrict the flow of air at idle more on some cylinders than others then you got far bigger fish to fry than just trying to come up with a method to sync your carbs so it's all equal at idle --- because as soon as you get off idle it wont be --- so fix the filtration problem so that you get proper flow throughout the range and you won't have to worry about the flow at idle with or without the filters... yes proper tools cost a little money, just part of doing business...




Your gadget is only suitable for downdraft carbs which precludes most SU installations anyway.

You are aware that the air float tower tilts aren't you? click on the other pic and you will see, the gadget does both downdraft and sidedraft and even up-draft - elbow drafts and slinky drafts along with sponge draft and open draft --- even works on oil bath filters after you remove them to get to the carb throat... :)

J Tiers
08-01-2014, 07:41 PM
Radishes! If you are loosing damper fluid you should fix that fault first.



Eh... do yer think I didn't get right on that first thing? Wotcher think I am?

Every time I checked and tried to see them lose fluid, all was perfect. They also had no leaks. When watched, they were always good.

If I just drove the thing, and checked in a day or two, they would be nearly dry, every time. I NEVER was able to see any fluid getting away, and I STILL have zero idea where it may have gone, but I assume it went down the hatch and into the engine. The specified fluid was a form of ATF..... Ford ATF, IIRC.

As for AK, just ignore him... he's off on a long convoluted set of assumptions again..... which he will now begin to defend...

The *&^%$#@! SU carbs were not in any way WORTH the cost even of renting a fancy tool.. Worst. Idea. Ever. Can't be fixed by more tools, just set it up on RPM, on manifold pressure, or whatever the manual says, or your pleasure is.

More than that is serious turd polishing.

A.K. Boomer
08-01-2014, 08:06 PM
That's a good point JT. I forgot what we were working on :p


it's not like it really matters,,, not anything I would do with something I actually cared about and wanted right though...

The Artful Bodger
08-01-2014, 11:15 PM
Ha ha, that NIH syndrome is a very strong force!;)