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View Full Version : That little voice is you Gardian Angle



Old Hat
07-22-2014, 09:15 AM
I've seen that some of the "non-professionals" here get into some serious machining. :cool:
What I don't know is; how frequently and/or how much work in the shop
does one have to do before one developes that RED~FLAG voice from within
that can save a project, a machine or even a limb.

I can't realy account for the hundreds of times it's saved me, by saying it's purely
mind-related. Infact I' on several very serious occasions, got that message to . . . .
turn around, or hit the red mushroom, or whatever, just in time to avoid dissaters
that I'm convinced I had no mental or sencory perception of.

On many occasions, I'm convinced that my mental band~width of stored data
that imediatly preceeded a bad event has built up a secondary awareness
that rides shot~gun with (the far more focussed and intence primary train of thought).

Regardless countless 10 hour a day metal workers will back me up when I say . . . .

ALWAYS GIVE HEED to that little voice, that sudden apprehention,
that unexplained hesitation, that wants you to STOP! in as few milliseconds as you can
only to find that another second more would have been bad to catastrophic.

Benta
07-22-2014, 09:21 AM
Gardian Angles are so acute!

browne92
07-22-2014, 09:31 AM
I don't know that I've developed that sense just yet. But I have learned two things:

1. Always listen to your gut. If it gives you a bad gut, it's probably going to be trouble.

2. I HAVE learned when I'm tired enough. Even if it is not a good stopping point in the project, I know a certain level of fatigue that tells me it's time to shut it down and walk away. Any further, and it'll cost me money/time/labor in fixing what I'm about to screw up.

TGTool
07-22-2014, 09:36 AM
I don't think it's related to machining experience so much as gut experience. Developing a way to be open to the intuition, if you will. I think it gets better if you exercise it more. Intuitional strength training perhaps.

Black Forest
07-22-2014, 09:46 AM
One of my mentors in regards to training horses always said, " You've got to notice the thing that happens just before the thing you don't want to have happen happens."

KiddZimaHater
07-22-2014, 09:56 AM
I've had to train myself to stop and listen to my 'inner voice'.
If I'm second-guessing something, I'll double check it.
On more than one occasion I've scrapped parts because I've changed offsets, not checked tools, ran a tap too long, mis-measured, etc.
All the while my little voice was screaming, "Check it!" and my ego was saying, "NAH...It's fine!"
OOPS! :(

Highpower
07-22-2014, 10:31 AM
One of my mentors in regards to training horses always said, " You've got to notice the thing that happens just before the thing you don't want to have happen happens."

The wife and I took a drive one morning to a distant restaurant to have brunch. We finished our meal and we were driving North back towards the highway to head home. As we rode along the sky went dark and it started to rain. Hard. As we approached the next intersection something in my gut told me "It's decision time". I turned off the main road and headed East toward home. The wife asked where we were going, and I told her with all this rain the highway will be at a standstill, so I'm taking the back roads home. Had we continued on toward the highway, we would have been smack dab in the middle of this at the exact time it happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipCzdcQu-FQ

krutch
07-22-2014, 10:31 AM
My inner voice usually talks to me afterwards, damn it. Guardian Angel is too busy keeping me alive 'cause the voice was sleeping when I needed it most.

Old Hat
07-22-2014, 11:27 AM
I've had to train myself to stop and listen to my 'inner voice'.
If I'm second-guessing something, I'll double check it.
On more than one occasion I've scrapped parts because I've changed offsets, not checked tools, ran a tap too long, mis-measured, etc.
All the while my little voice was screaming, "Check it!" and my ego was saying, "NAH...It's fine!"
OOPS! :(

I'm on board with most of the rest of these posts. Especially regarding intuition.

You . . . . are a study indeed. A whole different mental approach seems worth considering.

For instance . . . why would you change an offset without a concrete line of reasoning
in the first place to do so? Or tap depths. In tool-making there is a saying ;
>>>> That which you do not vallidate, you weld . . . or toss in the scrap hopper!<<<<

I can't picture working from estimates or hunches.
Maybe I don't understand. Not being crittical, as much as curious.

davidwdyer
07-22-2014, 11:36 AM
Gardian Angles are so acute!

You had me laughing there.

But seriously, I think we could all listen more.

A.K. Boomer
07-22-2014, 11:37 AM
If you don't mind me asking -- how long has this been going on? the voices that your hearing, does it just have to do with these safety type things you mention or do they talk to you elsewhere? like maybe the supermarket or while driving and such?

were you ever abandoned as a small child?

Old Hat
07-22-2014, 11:52 AM
You had me laughing there.

But seriously, I think we could all listen more.

Proof that it superseeds intellect is found in heavy machining.
Shift changes are fertile ground for the seeds of catastrophy.

I work nights. Once I had the day man on a large floormill tell me the
job was rigged and ready to pull. Our crane man wasn't there yet
so I had time to realy give it all a good walk-around. I felt uneasy
but mostly figured it was due to less confidence in my day man and their crane-man.

My guy showed up and got his remote harness on and walked around the part as I did.
Then he just stood there a bit. I never ever questioned this fellow he was the best.
He asked me to climb on top and look inside a region of the weldment we
couldn't see from outside. I was the one who mounted this part the day before.

I knew there was nothing in there, no reason to clamp anything in there.
I also knew never to disrespect a Master and offered no hesitation or complaint.
Son of a gun the imbasile on days had two more straps added with 1" tablebolts!

And worse, he had forgotten them, and told me it was ready to pull.
A 65 ton overhead with a 28 ton part on the hooks won't be kind to a few table-bolts.

So! The crane~man had a tip-off that falls in the Gut cattagory.
It's good he Listened.

Old Hat
07-22-2014, 11:57 AM
If you don't mind me asking -- how long has this been going on? the voices that your hearing, does it just have to do with these safety type things you mention or do they talk to you elsewhere? like maybe the supermarket or while driving and such?

were you ever abandoned as a small child?

I was never a small child.
My little voice is saying something right now . . .
. . . Can you here it? ;~7

A.K. Boomer
07-22-2014, 12:05 PM
That's pretty good, no need to ask you about spankings now as I think you just answered that already :p

Old Hat
07-22-2014, 12:17 PM
It's a beautiful day in the neihborhood . . . ;)

A.K. Boomer
07-22-2014, 12:31 PM
Seriously, the "red flag" thing you bring up is pretty much the way my metal shop and wood shop teachers described it and it stuck, I guess I don't see red flags but i think it helps to somehow have something like that subconsciously...

I have caught myself on the verge of making a huge mistake many a time and can only hope I hang on to that ability,,,

another thing im grateful for is having "cat like" reflexes during a Mt. bike crash,,, I somehow always seem to go into instant damage control in mid flight, it's another thing I hope I can hang onto for along time ---- almost one of those "hope the force is with me" type deals,,, never to be cocky about it - just hope it's there when you need it...

Old Hat
07-22-2014, 12:49 PM
I kinda have to keep myself outta situations that require cat like reflexes involving anything further up than my wrists.
Those days are gone (for me) Maybe You'll fair better.

PS;
My son had a very successfull paintball team several years ago, made it to national finals a few times.
I luv watching those guys hyperattenuated fly~ing while spinning while shooting while reloading.

I could never have done extreme sports.

A.K. Boomer
07-22-2014, 01:13 PM
I feel like a total slug when I watch things like the "red bull rampage"

those kids are incredible, almost seems like they are more comfortable in the air than on the ground,,

Im more of a steep technical rider - but generally have to have my steed planted on the terra firma

I watch some of those vids and end up feeling about useless - till I realize I could probably pedal their bikes back up what they just went down better than oh maybe 90% of them,,, and being well over a half century mark I guess I should not complain,,,

back to the crashes,,, there really is something strange that happens, there is no doubt that time slows down, it's like everything is happening in slow motion except you have the time re react within it... most of the time anyways,
but just about a month and a half ago I had to call upon these special powers - and had not had to do that for quite sometime, I was able to avoid even touching down with my body in a situation that was at first glance looking pretty grim. remember thinking immediately after that "wow, I still got it" and then analyzing it further there was not doubt that everything slowed down, or my brain was going into some kinda of hyperdrive that kicked in and made it all seem that way... I don't want to jinx it by talking about as if I will always have it - just hope it continues...

Daveb
07-22-2014, 01:33 PM
A.K. BOOMER, Yes, it seems that time slows down but it's the brain going into panic mode, it's very useful indeed and it's served me well on several occasions, I still have both legs because of it. Takes a long time to hit the ground though!

Rosco-P
07-22-2014, 02:22 PM
A 65 ton overhead with a 28 ton part on the hooks won't be kind to a few table-bolts.

So! The crane~man had a tip-off that falls in the Gut cattagory.
It's good he Listened.

Common sense comes from experience. Imagine how foolish he woulld have felt if he just ripped the part free from the steel floor plate, even though you gave him the go ahead. Experience (maybe a bad experience) told him to have you double check.

Sadly common sense is the most un-common of abilities in humans.

If you listen to an old dog bark, you might see them holes before you fall.

Jaakko Fagerlund
07-22-2014, 04:09 PM
I'm just wondering how on earth do people get in those situations that bad things will happen? Seems to me that something hasn't been checked, made sure and verified before doing something to it or with it.

I understand situations when tools or equipment breaks and gives you a good reason to wipe your pants afterwards, but I'm talking about non-accidental situations, as in the ones that could have been avoided in the first place.

cameron
07-22-2014, 04:17 PM
Probably, Jaakko, because the rest of us are not like you and are subject to human imperfection.

oil mac
07-22-2014, 06:12 PM
Somehow or other I tend to think that as the years have rolled on, with a" gotta have", & everybody in a big damned hurry, +could not give a damn for my fellow man, repetitive moronic jobs etc., etc., etc. The human animal has got itself further away from the earth &mother nature, which gave us a built in safety instinct which in many cases saved us from danger & miss-fortune, Nowadays arrogance by and large has negated this instinct, O.K. it did not always kick in, Maybe when it didn't & a fatality occurred it was/is your fate catching up with you, & your time is over.
In a few cases I have ignored my gut feeling which was warning me and things in those past occasions did not have a good outcome to say the least, One other occasion I had many years ago, I was working on a large mould for a big five ton iron casting, I was at the stage of turning the top part of the mould over, The total weight of the mould section & the moulding box was about 2& a half tons, this exercise required me to put heavy half length railway wooden sleepers down for the box edge to roll over on

That day, I felt something was amiss on a task I had done before with no difficulty, That day the moulding box split in half & the half side nearest me came off the sling chains & came down right where I would normally be standing directing the crane driver, If I had been steadying the mould at that point as normal & the inner voice not told me go to the other side I would have been gone

Is such a thing the voice of God or an instinct?

flylo
07-22-2014, 06:31 PM
It happens in the rest of life as well. I've learned to listen to "the little voice". It said get out of stocks when they hit 14,000 the 1st time & get back in at 6900. Boy was I glad I listened:cool:

KiddZimaHater
07-22-2014, 06:40 PM
why would you change an offset without a concrete line of reasoning
in the first place to do so? Or tap depths
No,No... You read me wrong.
I meant, for example, when I put in a new insert, and my voice says "Better back that offset up .005 to check it.", and my ego overrides it by saying, "Nah.,.. it's fine!" Sure enough, the new insert cuts too deep.
Or when my inner voice says, "You should probably change that tap. It's already tapped 100 holes, it's ready to break.", and again my ego says, "Nahhh... one more part!" ...SNAP!!!!

flylo
07-22-2014, 06:48 PM
I think the header should be guardian angel, not angle? LOL!

PStechPaul
07-22-2014, 07:05 PM
I don't think there is a supernatural "being" watching over us and warning us or protecting us, but it does sometimes seem that way. There have been many times when I feel that I've been lucky that something worse didn't happen. I think many "accidents" are fully preventable, particularly those that seem to occur with increased frequency on the roads. They probably should not be called "accidents", but "stupidities", as most are caused by aggressive, distracted, and impaired driving. In some cases I think the enhanced safety features on newer vehicles cause complacency and encourage the taking of chances. Also the concepts of "no fault" and "accident forgiveness" reduce personal responsibility.

This may also be true to a lesser extent with machine tools. A hundred years ago there were few guards or interlocks and protective clothing was mostly optional. There may have been more accidents, and they were probably more severe, but thinking that safeguards are in place and effective can give rise to recklessness and shortcuts.

Another factor is that, for most jobs, there are tried and true methods and tooling that virtually guarantee success and safety. But when you are doing things that are truly unique, you must rely on past experience with similar projects as well as a solid, and perhaps intuitive, knowledge of the machines and how things should look, sound, and smell. These are all clues, sometimes quite subtle, that may even trigger subconscious activity and premonition.

becksmachine
07-22-2014, 08:11 PM
Any further, and it'll cost me money/time/labor in fixing what I'm about to screw up.

I would add skin and blood to that list.

Dave

boslab
07-22-2014, 09:33 PM
The day you don't listen to the voice is the day you check out, i have witnessed some horrific things in industry, usually resulting in death, i remember a guy one day unloading a coil of steel, it landed on a chock and started to tip, what did he do, step out of the way, oh no instinct took over and he planted his hands against it and tried to push it back, 16 tons of steel flattened him up to the chest, i guess he wasn't listening to the voice, i think i have seen more fatal accidents than i really want to remember, every one is in some part due to a stupid action at some point, or not listening to the voice as be it
Sad
Mark

J Tiers
07-23-2014, 12:07 AM
A lot of that stuff is seeing something that doesn't look right. Not that there is anything obvious, but it just doesn't look right....

Some of it is what someone wrote about "nah, it'll tap one more hole"..... you just get a feeling that it might not.

The first is something that comes not from experience machining, but from experience of many sorts.... you get to know what looks OK and what doesn't. Genuine "tool users" have it, others generally do not.

It's like someone said about airplanes.... good ones look "right"... they may be ugly, but they look right even so. You either see that stuff, or you do not. It can be learned, everyone who has it, learned it. But I don't think it can be "studied". Only learned.

As for the "little voice" ..... I don't know how to develop that.... but I have heard it many times.

Old Hat
07-23-2014, 02:12 AM
One other occasion I had many years ago, I was working on a large mould for a big five ton iron casting, I was at the stage of turning the top part of the mould over, The total weight of the mould section & the moulding box was about 2& a half tons, this exercise required me to put heavy half length railway wooden sleepers down for the box edge to roll over on

That day, I felt something was amiss on a task I had done before with no difficulty, That day the moulding box split in half & the half side nearest me came off the sling chains & came down right where I would normally be standing directing the crane driver, If I had been steadying the mould at that point as normal & the inner voice not told me go to the other side I would have been gone

Is such a thing the voice of God or an instinct?


The day you don't listen to the voice is the day you check out, i have witnessed some horrific things in industry, usually resulting in death, i remember a guy one day unloading a coil of steel, it landed on a chock and started to tip, what did he do, step out of the way, oh no instinct took over and he planted his hands against it and tried to push it back, 16 tons of steel flattened him up to the chest, i guess he wasn't listening to the voice, i think i have seen more fatal accidents than i really want to remember, every one is in some part due to a stupid action at some point, or not listening to the voice as be it
Sad
Mark

I have no problem attributing a degree of all this to God, especially in cases where an unexplained prompt
wells up in you, seemingly only to detour you from dissaster. I've had this even involving events totally people based.
No cables to snap etc etc. I took the prompt, refused the invite, even as troublesome as that was,
and I'm still here to annoy another day.;)

But I also think that the collective of our sensory inputs feeds not just the Main Monitor so to speak . . .
but I assert the mind developes it's own paths for keeping track of our perifferal environment and circumstances.
I maintain that these cases are the ones involving machinery, cranes and other dynamic activities,
where you get about a fifth of a second to retreat, or else.
Ever notice the millisecond your cardoor latches shut you know the keys are inside?
Well you're one millisecond in the red... cuz you were NOT listening.

thaiguzzi
07-23-2014, 09:51 AM
I'm just wondering how on earth do people get in those situations that bad things will happen? Seems to me that something hasn't been checked, made sure and verified before doing something to it or with it.

I understand situations when tools or equipment breaks and gives you a good reason to wipe your pants afterwards, but I'm talking about non-accidental situations, as in the ones that could have been avoided in the first place.

Smoking too much weed...

flylo
07-23-2014, 10:01 AM
Jaako or the other guy?:rolleyes:


Smoking too much weed...

Old Hat
07-23-2014, 12:24 PM
No,No... You read me wrong.
I meant, for example, when I put in a new insert, and my voice says "Better back that offset up .005 to check it.", and my ego overrides it by saying, "Nah.,.. it's fine!" Sure enough, the new insert cuts too deep.
Or when my inner voice says, "You should probably change that tap. It's already tapped 100 holes, it's ready to break.", and again my ego says, "Nahhh... one more part!" ...SNAP!!!!

Understood, my bad.:rolleyes:

thaiguzzi
07-24-2014, 11:46 AM
Jaako or the other guy?:rolleyes:

Which other guy?

Old Hat
07-24-2014, 01:20 PM
Which other guy?

Good thing yer not a Switchblade hey?

vincemulhollon
07-27-2014, 07:49 AM
A lot of talk about mysticism and creativity and animal spirits but its just creativity about bad things. Same brainwaves that let you design something outta nowhere sometimes "design" what the results would be if that bolt failed or that tap is getting kinda worn. Folks who are good at one are invariably good at the other even if they claim they aren't or haven't noticed they are good at it. It really is the same spark of imagination.

Old Hat
07-27-2014, 09:43 AM
A lot of talk about mysticism and creativity and animal spirits but its just creativity about bad things. Same brainwaves that let you design something outta nowhere sometimes "design" what the results would be if that bolt failed or that tap is getting kinda worn. Folks who are good at one are invariably good at the other even if they claim they aren't or haven't noticed they are good at it. It really is the same spark of imagination.

And all wars were started in the name Of God. . . . UH huh.
I think we've met.
I remember that feeling of emptyness and void afterwords.