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View Full Version : Holding filler rod when TIG welding



boslab
07-23-2014, 04:43 AM
I had a brain fart, if you ran your rods between a couple of knurls fitted to a seam roller the rods would have a bit of grip, any thoughts, i think im developing a bit of arthritis as my hand aches esp upside down!, there are grippy things but this sounds feasable
Mark

Old Hat
07-23-2014, 09:02 AM
Home (shop) made filler cheater.
I was frowned on for making this instead of practicing my caterpiller.

There are also rolling actions that might feel better, but any method take practice.
Like while waiting for some-one, practice.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p92/swadge/I%20did%20it%20My%20way/cheater3.jpg (http://s126.photobucket.com/user/swadge/media/I%20did%20it%20My%20way/cheater3.jpg.html)
Made from oil-feed line from a 40's shaper.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p92/swadge/I%20did%20it%20My%20way/cheater4.jpg (http://s126.photobucket.com/user/swadge/media/I%20did%20it%20My%20way/cheater4.jpg.html)
I haven't used it in years now.

Toolguy
07-23-2014, 12:05 PM
There is a tool called a Tig Pen with a roller for that.

ahidley
07-23-2014, 12:08 PM
Try an ebay search for tig welding pen. There is a guy selling them but they are pricey. Come up with a design and we all can make one. They look pretty simple. Maybe a gnarled wheel that's thumb activated?

Old Hat
07-23-2014, 12:16 PM
I might add that I have to get filler in places on tooling that don't offer much space left,
for putting filler in just the right spot. I found that the cheater I made worked good for that.
And was about the only time I used it, after I got better at doing it in the few ways
I was shown by Pros.

They don't have much regard for cheaters and pens, and maintain . . . ."
"If you want to learn to tig weld, then learn it right!"
I offered no argument and still work on improving a few methods I like.

justanengineer
07-23-2014, 12:54 PM
JME, but Ive never known a good weldor to pinch tig rod between fingertips except in weird emergency cases. Your hand should stay open and you never touch the rod with finger tips. Not mine, but pic below.

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo273/kevinmorin_photo/TIG%20Welds/left_a.jpg

Old Hat
07-23-2014, 01:01 PM
Interesting, need to see some motion, can't picture much advance with that hold?

Old Hat
07-23-2014, 01:57 PM
Not mine, but pic below.

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo273/kevinmorin_photo/TIG%20Welds/left_a.jpg

I should hope not!
Who ever made that could have photograffed a real Man's or Woman's hand just as easilly.

I find virtual hands creepy and disturbing. Like it's attached to a gender neutural humanoid
that isn't sure whether to . . 'ahem . . or get . . 'ahemed.

BigMike782
07-23-2014, 02:01 PM
http://products.esab.com/Templates/T041.asp?id=93098

We are a creative bunch.....these will be flying out of home shops in no time:D

LKeithR
07-23-2014, 02:30 PM
JME, but Ive never known a good weldor to pinch tig rod between fingertips except in weird emergency cases. Your hand should stay open and you never touch the rod with finger tips...

That's assinine. When you're tig welding you hold the rod however you must to get the job done. In the picture you've got no control of the rod at all whereas grabbing it with your fingertips gives you the best control. But then, we've only been tig welding for 35-40 years...what the Hell do we know?

ahidley
07-23-2014, 05:12 PM
LOL Thats like eating with chop stix. I never figured out how to use them either.........

JoeLee
07-23-2014, 09:20 PM
That's assinine. When you're tig welding you hold the rod however you must to get the job done. In the picture you've got no control of the rod at all whereas grabbing it with your fingertips gives you the best control. But then, we've only been tig welding for 35-40 years...what the Hell do we know?I agree, it's just another gimmick.

JL................

justanengineer
07-23-2014, 09:33 PM
Interesting, need to see some motion, can't picture much advance with that hold?

You "wave" your thumb through its normal full range of back-forth motion, applying pressure on the downward stroke to push the rod through your fingers. Gripping the rod like that allows you to comfortably wear gloves and still have excellent control of the filler, often youll see guys pull their elbow into their side and stiffen that wrist for real precise movements just like stick welding.

Sorry for the creepy digi-hand, I couldnt find a better real pic.

RussZHC
07-23-2014, 10:06 PM
I have never TIGged so maybe should not be making comment but/still...


You "wave" your thumb through its normal full range of back-forth motion, applying pressure on the downward stroke to push the rod through your fingers. Gripping the rod like that allows you to comfortably wear gloves and still have excellent control of the filler, often youll see guys pull their elbow into their side and stiffen that wrist for real precise movements just like stick welding

I believe I understand the action and the first thing that springs to mind is this will need to be done in most cases with the left hand (given TIG is a two handed action, right?) as percentage wise there are more right hand dominant than left hand dominant, and personally anyway, I am not sure I could coordinate without a ton of practice.
The second thing coming to mind is this action of pushing the thumb down while moving it sideways (more or less) through its range of motion...I think I could debate that it is not a good biomechanical action of the thumb, perhaps more so as one ages since either some degree of carpal tunnel will happen or as many do, the thumb is often the first hit with arthritis or similar.
Sorry, I would need more convincing such an action is a great improvement on a pinch between and movement at the wrist. I am making an assumption that the action of the rod when brazing is fairly similar to TIG (and brazing I have done a reasonable amount of)

If you put the elbow at the side and stiffen the wrist, you could also just pivot at the elbow though not as fine an action and I don't think that range of motion would be large enough to go more than a few inches at a time, would that be enough in most cases?

alanganes
07-23-2014, 10:52 PM
Here is another take on that for the "welding tips and tricks" guy, no creepy cyber-hands involved:

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/how-to-tig-weld-feeding-rod.html

Old Hat
07-24-2014, 02:23 AM
Welding rarely takes up my whole day, but I did have to weld for a shift and a half once.
At the end I understood the >>Law<<

There are countless ways to do just about all of it.
If you're gonna turn out anything worth keeping, you'd better be doing it all
from an advantage, that being methods that provide stabillity for the weld
and as much skelatal comfort and flexibillity as possible, or fatigue will kill you.

Outside of that is the wrong stuff.

RussZHC
07-24-2014, 07:15 AM
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/how-to-tig-weld-feeding-rod.html

that action is very different than the thumb moving down and sliding...answers my other thought as well, about having control with typical welding gloves

some how I missed this video (thought I had been pretty careful viewing them all...thanks for the link)

Royldean
07-24-2014, 07:52 AM
I agree, it's just another gimmick.


Yep, this is just like the BMWCCA guys telling me I'm shifting gears wrong. Pure BS.

RichR
07-24-2014, 10:28 AM
Rather than trying to get people to become proficient at finger acrobatics, you'd think someone would have devised a second handle with a variable speed
trigger to feed the wire. Kind of like MIG uses.

Royldean
07-24-2014, 11:01 AM
Rather than trying to get people to become proficient at finger acrobatics, you'd think someone would have devised a second handle with a variable speed
trigger to feed the wire. Kind of like MIG uses.

They exist, in both industrial and light use format. But, WHY? I don't see how moving the filler with your hand is any more difficult than any other option. But hey, that's me....

KJ1I
07-24-2014, 02:04 PM
I don't TIG, but I do occasionally use filler rod with the torch. I tried to visualize how I actually hold the filler, but ended up going into the shop to grab a piece and actually hold it. I do very similar to the second method in the video: I hold the rod between my middle and ring fingers and "stroke" it with my thumb. That's the way I was taught 30 years ago and it works for me, but them I'm not earning a living welding 8 to 12 hours a day. I can see why the OP asked about knurling the surface to aid advancing the filler, but I've never had a problem moving the rod. I do wear a light weight glove with roughed leather on the surface of the thumb and fingers.

Old Hat
07-25-2014, 03:37 AM
Rather than trying to get people to become proficient at finger acrobatics, .

If you're adverce to dexterous use of your digits, why bother with metal working?
I don't get it.

Jaakko Fagerlund
07-25-2014, 04:06 AM
If you're adverce to dexterous use of your digits, why bother with metal working?
I don't get it.
That is because you missed the point in his post, of which you only quoted half.

Old Hat
07-25-2014, 04:13 AM
I addressed the point that matters.
Add a contraption to tig and you get half~assed mig.

Why not stick a rowing excersizer in a liferaft,
or just buy a rowboat.

Black Forest
07-25-2014, 05:27 AM
I addressed the point that matters.
Add a contraption to tig and you get half~assed mig.

Why not stick a rowing excersizer in a liferaft,
or just buy a rowboat.

Some people are not very dexterous with their fingers. They have a hard time to do the movements with their hand to feed the rod, keep it positioned in the right place and watch what the puddle is doing and move the torch correctly. You are saying then they shouldn't be welding. That is unfair to them. Maybe they can't do it the traditional way but if they can use a device that allows them to get the job done and make a correct weld I sure don't see anything wrong with them doing it at all. Not everyone has a great talent to do lots of the things that they enjoy doing or even need to do but that is no reason they shouldn't try or keep plugging away. Who appointed you as God to say that if you don't have the great ability that I have you should not be even attempting to do anything.

I am sure there are people on here that have a great many talents to do a lot of things. It has been proven many times. You are definitely "old school" and there is nothing wrong with that except the attitude most "old schoolers" have regarding anything that doesn't follow the same road as how they had to learn is not valid. The attitude of if you don't pay your dues you are not worthy is very common in us old farts! There is so much information available in this era that was not available back in our day that it speeds up the learning process greatly.

So take a chill pill and try to help and encourage rather than come across in the manner of if you don't do it the way I learned you have no right to even try any other methods. Definitely and old mans problem for sure. Thank God not all old men are like you!

You seem quite knowledgeable and if you would get down off your high horse you could actually help people here instead of just putting down most everything everyone has to say if they are not up to your standards.

Have a nice day!


OK Alistair bring it on! I am ready for my spanking.;)

Old Hat
07-25-2014, 08:19 AM
You couldn't have me more wrong.
I don't limit others, and don't set any limits on how they learn, attempt, or acheive anything.
If gagets help, cool. I remarked on the odd disposition of a statement.
That's all.

And fair, you gotta be kidding, FAIR?
I would have dearly loved to play hockey, even more to accell in martial arts.
I've tryed both and failed misserably. End of story. No-one needs to invent
anything to help level the field for me. It just aint gonna happen.

And I've had help. And I help many in my trade to see
if they can overcome obstickels. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't.

As for high horses, true. I'm good with horses. Good with guns.
Suck at cooking, and have little patience with those who feel
they were put on earth to "reinvent" everything.
I have a passion for following in the footsteps of those
who pioneered before me. I try to pick up on their creativity.
I have no need to try and twist their accomplishments
into something new and take credit fot it.

Cheers.

justanengineer
07-25-2014, 08:41 AM
They exist, in both industrial and light use format. But, WHY?

For production its one of the fastest ways of welding, even faster than MIG bc you dont have to stop to adjust the machine when the material thickness/properties change nor do you ever have to worry about running out of filler. Several of the shops I deal with will jig up a monster of an assembly and what would normally take 5-6 different adjustments is welded continuous.

loose nut
07-25-2014, 08:50 AM
I would have dearly loved to play hockey, even more to excell in martial arts.


Most hockey games, that I have watched, have devolved into a bad kung foo movie so you could have done both at the same time.:D;):rolleyes:

There are a dozen ways to do anything INCLUDING feeding tig wire. There is no such thing as "the right way". Do what is best for your self and the hell with what other say.

vpt
07-25-2014, 09:03 AM
I want this kind of feeder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvi8nyXEsCU

Royldean
07-25-2014, 09:09 AM
For production its one of the fastest ways of welding, even faster than MIG bc you dont have to stop to adjust the machine when the material thickness/properties change nor do you ever have to worry about running out of filler. Several of the shops I deal with will jig up a monster of an assembly and what would normally take 5-6 different adjustments is welded continuous.

I guess I should've elaborated that my "but why" was strictly for the "light use" category... but I have yet to see any professional TIG welders use an autofeeder, and I've seen A LOT. The only use of autofeeding that I've personally witnessed was part TIG welding robot.

Old Hat
07-25-2014, 09:27 AM
Most hockey games, that I have watched, have devolved into a bad kung foo movie so you could have done both at the same time.:D;):rolleyes:

There are a dozen ways to do anything INCLUDING feeding tig wire. There is no such thing as "the right way". Do what is best for your self and the hell with what other say.

Pretty Much!

Let's consider this interner thing as an "overlay".
One common thread I've found in the Men who nurtured me early on was . . . .
"There's lots of good ways and even more bad ways to do this" they would say.
"YOU do what I show you to start with, and when you can do what I can do,
we can talk about trying your way. If your way works better, that will become
the new best way untill "........

Now overlay this interweb thing. I prefer to find something to learn each time
I click HSM, the less I have been able to accomplish in an area, the more closely
I read and re-read a post when I can tell it was written by some~one who
has accomplishments in said area.

Old Hat
07-25-2014, 09:31 AM
I guess I should've elaborated that my "but why" was strictly for the "light use" category... but
I have yet to see any professional TIG welders use an autofeeder, and I've seen A LOT.
The only use of autofeeding that I've personally witnessed was part TIG welding robot.

I have yet to see any professional TIG welders use an autofeeder, and I've seen A LOT
Same here!

tjs
07-25-2014, 09:32 AM
That's assinine. When you're tig welding you hold the rod however you must to get the job done. In the picture you've got no control of the rod at all whereas grabbing it with your fingertips gives you the best control. But then, we've only been tig welding for 35-40 years...what the Hell do we know?

Bingo.

Black Forest
07-25-2014, 01:42 PM
I guess I should've elaborated that my "but why" was strictly for the "light use" category... but I have yet to see any professional TIG welders use an autofeeder, and I've seen A LOT. The only use of autofeeding that I've personally witnessed was part TIG welding robot.

What type of professional tig weldors have you seen? Meaning in what application. Just curious.

Old Hat
07-26-2014, 03:14 AM
What type of professional tig weldors have you seen? Meaning in what application. Just curious.

The highest tier there is among tig welders.
Tool & Die Welders!
I make this assertion excluding myself, considering myself at best a "para-tool & die welder".
I'm better than the average "he's the one that welds here" tool-welder,
but not even close to the Real Pro's.

And none of them I know use gadgets or pens.
Probably would be exhiled if caught with one.

Black Forest
07-26-2014, 03:29 AM
The highest tier there is among tig welders.
Tool & Die Welders!
I make this assertion excluding myself, considering myself at best a "para-tool & die welder".
I'm better than the average "he's the one that welds here" tool-welder,
but not even close to the Real Pro's.

And none of them I know use gadgets or pens.
Probably would be exhiled if caught with one.

Have you ever been in a Nuclear power plant when the weldor' were welding?

I am curious as to what type of horses you have been around? Horses have played a major role in my life both personally and professionally. Really just interested as it really interests me to explore the different personality types that are good or drawn to horses.

Old Hat
07-26-2014, 03:55 AM
Never, and the outfit I worked for that did, gave it up before I started there , due to insane requirements.
Our portable shop would be nearly dissmantled durring inspections.

I grew up around horses but never owned one.
My Uncle had a team and actually worked them till the late 40's.
He taught me things about horse's behavior and interaction with people.

I was able to handle difficult horses that challenged others.
He maintained that that was because of what was in me or not in me.
Horses respond to fear, apprehension, anger and such in humans.

He said one's internal stabillity lends to Horse handling.
And that unstable folks haven't much chance at all.
I dout I would know one breed from another.
Or much else for that matter. I remember I always was given
the horse at rentals that they were considering for the glue factory.

A neihbor had two underfed horses, I used to give the grass-clippings
from our first bagging lawn mower to those horses.
My mom had told me to be certain no metal was in the grass.
I would care for them when they went camping and deer-hunting.
My mom told me to feed them more, and not worry about it.

If anything came of it she would set them streight!

Black Forest
07-26-2014, 08:54 AM
Never, and the outfit I worked for that did, gave it up before I started there , due to insane requirements.
Our portable shop would be nearly dissmantled durring inspections.

I grew up around horses but never owned one.
My Uncle had a team and actually worked them till the late 40's.
He taught me things about horse's behavior and interaction with people.

I was able to handle difficult horses that challenged others.
He maintained that that was because of what was in me or not in me.
Horses respond to fear, apprehension, anger and such in humans.

He said one's internal stabillity lends to Horse handling.
And that unstable folks haven't much chance at all.
I dout I would know one breed from another.
Or much else for that matter. I remember I always was given
the horse at rentals that they were considering for the glue factory.

A neihbor had two underfed horses, I used to give the grass-clippings
from our first bagging lawn mower to those horses.
My mom had told me to be certain no metal was in the grass.
I would care for them when they went camping and deer-hunting.
My mom told me to feed them more, and not worry about it.

If anything came of it she would set them streight!

Teams are great! I really like working with them when I was young. My biggest memory of working with a team came when I was 15 and got a dump wagon stuck fully loaded. I tried everything I knew to get them to pull that wagon out. No chance. So I walked back and got the man and told him what happened. He walked back with me and climbed up on the wagon took the reins and clucked to the horses, said each ones name and out comes the wagon! He smiles and told me I had to learn to feel the horses mouths and support them with the reins. The next day I stuck the wagon on purpose in the same hole and with some experimenting I got them to pull it out. He laughed when I came back and told me I was learning. That opened up a whole new world for me.

loose nut
07-26-2014, 11:06 AM
The highest tier there is among tig welders.
Tool & Die Welders!


That is easy compared to a pipe welder (tig), in a boiler, where the joint to be welded is at arms length behind other pipes and half of it has to be welded with the use of a mirror because you can't get close enough to it to see the back side. Just to make it interesting it is Nickel alloy not steel. No it wasn't me but we have welders locally that do it all the time.

boslab
07-26-2014, 11:38 AM
I did quite a bit of welding on pipes years ago, some went into a nuclier reprocessing plant, it was all xrayed heat treated ultrasounded and any other test they could think of,the slightest inclusion or crack and it was rejected, i hope!, there was no other test other than thier weld test given to all welders at regular intervals, i was young then with good eyes though!
A question about horses, why is there a sign outside a couple of horse paddocks around me saying "do not feed hoses grass clippings", i always thought it was because of lawn feed or some chemical but does it upset them?
Loads of interesting stuff in this thread, thanks for taking the time to answer, at the moment i tend to hold the torch with my left and feed with my left or rightward weld but ive sort of switched to leftward where i can to avoid thumb wiggling on an arthritic hand, probably in part induced by feeding tons of filler!, it takes a lot of passes to tig a 3/4 inch thick pipe, Nickel alloy or nimonic was what we were doing for windscale reprocessing plant, welds like porridge, its actually quite forgiving once you get the knack, some of the pipes were copper, thay were cruel, the sheild gas was helium and the dam stuff would cook you they got so hot, there were preheating burners on while you welded so you had to wear a shiny suit and cover your headshield with chrome blanket like a monkey mask, horrible
Mark

Black Forest
07-26-2014, 02:08 PM
That is easy compared to a pipe welder (tig), in a boiler, where the joint to be welded is at arms length behind other pipes and half of it has to be welded with the use of a mirror because you can't get close enough to it to see the back side. Just to make it interesting it is Nickel alloy not steel. No it wasn't me but we have welders locally that do it all the time.


That is sort of what I was referring to when I asked if Old Hat had ever been around any nuclear pipe weldors. Reaching in through other pipes at arms length using a mirror a cold wire feeder makes a job that is close to impossible doable.

Black_Moons
07-26-2014, 02:54 PM
A question about horses, why is there a sign outside a couple of horse paddocks around me saying "do not feed hoses grass clippings", i always thought it was because of lawn feed or some chemical but does it upset them?
Mark

I would think its the same reason you shouldn't feed anyone elses animal. The owner has no idea its going on, and now is left wondering why the animals are not eating as much. Is there something wrong with them? Do they need to see the vet? (Who may spend a lot of money to figure out whats wrong, when there is nothing wrong)

And if one animal did happen to become sick from the grass, how would the owner know it was grass and not the feed if he does not know when grass clippings are being given?

It just creates a whole lot of problems for trying to track the animals health, even if its 100% fine for the animal.

Old Hat
07-26-2014, 04:26 PM
Excellant point!
The horses I was feeding were poorly cared for.
My mom was a farm-girl and cautioned me about **** that could have been bagged with the grass.
Beyond that, anything I did for those two animals was an improvement over the owner's treatment.
They realy had no buisness with horses.

In general though. Damn str8!
Don't feed or mess with someone elses animals unless they approve it!

Never heard a story quite like the stuck wagon story, very Cool.