PDA

View Full Version : motorized stop block for right angle head = cheap 5th axis?



doctordoctor
09-07-2014, 01:00 PM
I just got a great deal on a BT30 right angle head. (I'll be posting lots of pics of fun times with it as soon as my ER20 set gets here tomorrow).

Its a tantalizing idea to somehow modify it or add some kind of mechanism which allows the angle its rotated to to be computer controlled..that would essentially be some kind of 5th axis I believe (on a 3 axis machine). I'm not ambitious enough to attempt rotating it _during cutting_, I mean rotating it between cuts..for instance to allow holes to be drilled at equally spaced angles around an axis. So I guess that means this would be a 3.5th axis, not a 5th axis. (3.5 since it would not cut while it rotates..while a true 4th axis would)

The way it currently works is pretty simple. It has a pin that sticks out which is supposed to fit in a socket you mount on the spindle head.

That pin is solidly mounted to a clamp which fits around the body of the right angle head. You can loosen a few bolts on it and rotate it as you like, then tighten it to lock down the angle.

I'm thinking something could be rigged up to unclamp that clamp, then use the existing spindle orientation system to rotate the head to the desired angle, with encoder-feedback accuracy, then clamp it down.

The last pic shows its size relative to a BT30 tool with a 1/2" end mill. Its a really small RA head and its brand new. Kyoritsu KAH13.

Anyone ever done something like this?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140905_161933_zpspp6lxpxn.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140905_161933_zpspp6lxpxn.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140905_162134_zpsnpgvs7nv.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140905_162134_zpsnpgvs7nv.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140905_145729_zpshmbtwwnj.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140905_145729_zpshmbtwwnj.jpg.html)

Toolguy
09-07-2014, 01:59 PM
You could possibly adapt a small rotary table clamped to the spindle and crank it around between cuts or motorize it to be automatic. The r/t would have to be modified but would contain the basic mechanics. BTW - great score on the right angle head!

doctordoctor
09-07-2014, 02:46 PM
You could possibly adapt a small rotary table clamped to the spindle and crank it around between cuts or motorize it to be automatic. The r/t would have to be modified but would contain the basic mechanics. BTW - great score on the right angle head!

with a hole in the middle for the spindle? or maybe just the guts of it?

i know its an insane deal...sometimes ebay really lives up to the hype

doctordoctor
09-07-2014, 02:58 PM
i'm imagining something with encoder feedback and a simple drive system. its okay if its flimsy because it wont be used during cutting, and there will be a clamp of some kind to lock it in place, so that the drive system doesnt deal with any cutting forces

adatesman
09-07-2014, 03:09 PM
"So I guess that means this would be a 3.5th axis, not a 5th axis. (3.5 since it would not cut while it rotates..while a true 4th axis would)"

I think the term is 4 axis positioning, as opposed to full 4 axis. Best part of it would be the ability to do 5-sided machining.... Really cuts down on setups/operations when you're able to hit top + all four sides in one clamping.

Btw, what type of machine is it on?

doctordoctor
09-07-2014, 03:35 PM
"So I guess that means this would be a 3.5th axis, not a 5th axis. (3.5 since it would not cut while it rotates..while a true 4th axis would)"

I think the term is 4 axis positioning, as opposed to full 4 axis. Best part of it would be the ability to do 5-sided machining.... Really cuts down on setups/operations when you're able to hit top + all four sides in one clamping.

Btw, what type of machine is it on?

ahh that makes sense

Blagh this is so tempting...the spindle already has CNC controlled orientation, and that turning force is coupled to the RA head..if there was a mechanism to just switch from spindle torque going to the RA head output to the RA head rotation, with a clamp....all the ingredients are there ya know?

its a Dyna Mechtronics DM2900

adatesman
09-07-2014, 08:39 PM
Not to drift, but do you like the machine, doctordoctor? Their website is woefully inadequate, to the point of not even listing the machines they sell.

Regardless, I suspect something could be done with a solenoid-driven shot pin into an index plate run off a custom M code...

That said, it might get dicey if you try and move past 5-sided and into 4th positioning, as accuracy of coordinated motion of multiple axes comes into play. All too easy for witness marks/broken tooling if one axis lags...

doctordoctor
09-07-2014, 08:44 PM
Not to drift, but do you like the machine, doctordoctor? Their website is woefully inadequate, to the point of not even listing the machines they sell.

Regardless, I suspect something could be done with a solenoid-driven shot pin into an index plate run off a custom M code...

That said, it might get dicey if you try and move past 5-sided and into 4th positioning, as accuracy of coordinated motion of multiple axes comes into play. All too easy for witness marks/broken tooling if one axis lags...

yeah Dyna is hanging on by a thread I think..they have great technical support if you call or email them though. I couldn't be happier with this mill..2hp, 7000rpm (10,000 if you buy a pulley), single phase 220V, 6 tool ATC, BT30, 200ipm rapids...its really lacking nothing for its size..

wait I dont get it, 4th axis "positioning" is just rotating the RA head without cutting, and then once its locked into its new position, cutting. Right? why would the axes need to be synced for that?

thats why I was calling it 3.5 axis because not all 4 axes (4th being head rotation) would happen simultaneously

adatesman
09-07-2014, 09:24 PM
Say you're boring at a 45 degree angle.... X and Y need to be sync'd 1:1. Error in that sync will do bad things to the concentricity of the bore. Now consider 16.33 degrees.... Servos with scales, maybe. Steppers, unlikely. To do that sort of thing costs serious money, both in terms of hardware and control.

Which is to say I think it's a fantastic idea, and just wanting to warn you of some possible issues before you get too far down that road since there may be mechanical hurdles that aren't worth the trouble. But 4 stops at 90 degrees, parallel to the axes? Hell yes! :)

doctordoctor
09-07-2014, 09:38 PM
Say you're boring at a 45 degree angle.... X and Y need to be sync'd 1:1. Error in that sync will do bad things to the concentricity of the bore. Now consider 16.33 degrees.... Servos with scales, maybe. Steppers, unlikely. To do that sort of thing costs serious money, both in terms of hardware and control.

Which is to say I think it's a fantastic idea, and just wanting to warn you of some possible issues before you get too far down that road since there may be mechanical hurdles that aren't worth the trouble. But 4 stops at 90 degrees, parallel to the axes? Hell yes! :)

Oh okay I get it ..of course that makes sense. It shall be interesting to see what happens when I try that. The mill can do rigid tapping okay, I did a bunch of 4-40 in 303 SS as a test and it went okay, so I think its not too horrible at syncing its various axes (I'm calling the spindle an axis). But its going to be interesting for sure to chuck up a boring bar and do some worst case scenario stuff lol.

Another issue with using the head at all is that the drawbar on this machine only has about 300lbs of force. So plunging or heavy drilling is probably not going to be its strong suit.

Or, I suppose if I can think of a "rigidity enhancer" lol that connects the RA head to the spindle casting somehow that could be interesting.

doctordoctor
09-09-2014, 06:20 PM
not much room for a stop block..sheesh..and I would imagine the issue is the same on any BT30 spindle given the distance from taper to stop pin and the standard bt30 drive dogs..I dont seem to have any existing nearby screw holes on the head casting either..except maybe the cover that bolts on to the end of the spindle..which is where I see youtube videos showing stop blocks being mounted. so maybe I take that off, drill/tap it, and that becomes the mount point?



needs to push down the pin and also lock it in place with no play

the RA head came with a little "thing"..it appears to be precision ground and seems to fit on the stop pin, perhaps its an adapter from the stop pin conical shape to a more simple circular shape that makes making a custom stop block easier?

I spoke with Kyoritsu and they told me most likely this RA head has a torque limit of 9 in lbs (1nm) and 6000 rpm..but they mentioned they are all custom units..but since it weighs 1.3kg that seems to line up with those specs..besides that they dont seem to have much info

I have my ER20 collet set and I'd really like to play with this thing! But I dont want to do this work twice so I have to make a quality stop block and mount it in a way that makes sense. And I'm just talking about a normal, fixed one...the motorized one is still a pipe dream lol

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_151158_zpskg9h0nkk.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_151158_zpskg9h0nkk.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_151205_zpswohl8fyj.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_151205_zpswohl8fyj.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_070025_zpsflutihpf.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_070025_zpsflutihpf.jpg.html)

doctordoctor
09-09-2014, 06:22 PM
something like this?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/untitled_zpsfc867eef.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/untitled_zpsfc867eef.jpg.html)

doctordoctor
09-09-2014, 06:45 PM
I was hoping I could take off the end plate and drill it on the bench..but it wont come off. Looking at the drawing it appears it grabs a collar which is behind the spindle ledge and cant be removed with out taking the whole spindle out, which I'd like to avoid.

Peeking into the crack that it does move with the screws out, I can confirm the end plate is about 1/2" thick and solid, and there is solid steel above it.

So if I can drill and tap threads into by hand then I think I have a mounting point.

DING. Thats the sound of all the required geometry now being defined..I think I have everything needed to draw this up in SW and design the part to fit perfectly. And I can use the part itself as a template to drill and tap the holes in the plate.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_154053_zpsgnbn8fwr.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_154053_zpsgnbn8fwr.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_154101_zpsra0r7dyn.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_154101_zpsra0r7dyn.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_154107_zpscg6gsqxr.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_154107_zpscg6gsqxr.jpg.html)

doctordoctor
09-09-2014, 08:29 PM
the spindle and RA head stop pin (compressed) modeled in space..now all I have to do is draw the stop block around them

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/assy_zpsf5a9c05c.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/assy_zpsf5a9c05c.jpg.html)

doctordoctor
09-09-2014, 10:37 PM
I wanted to make it easier to hold the stop block in place and use it as a template for drilling the holes in the spindle end plate so I added a curved pocket on the top which slides flush with the spindle diameter.

The idea here is that two bolts go through the block and thread into the spindle end plate.

I had to 3 axis the angled 10 degree chamfers on the slot because I dont have any sort of cutter with that angle.

And this part should obviously not be made out of aluminum, but I think if all goes well and the right angle head becomes a tool I'm actually going to keep, I'll do it again in steel or maybe do a hard anodizing of an aluminum one or something. But for now I just want to see if this RA head is even practical on my machine.

I wanted some gap left between the block and the spindle, and also to compress the stop pin enough to clear the stop ring but not over compress under any situations. Solidworks makes that easy since I already drew up the relevant parts, I just draw the stop block around them and offset it from their geometry.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/stopblock_zps2cc2a6db.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/stopblock_zps2cc2a6db.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_193029_zpsazgmx1a8.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_193029_zpsazgmx1a8.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_193015_zpsjnymxut7.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_193015_zpsjnymxut7.jpg.html)

doctordoctor
09-09-2014, 10:38 PM
And tada, it seems to fit perfectly. Its a little late so I'm going to crack one open and tap/thread the holes tomorrow I suppose...

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_192607_zps76hfosyv.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_192607_zps76hfosyv.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_192625_zpsjqrehcn6.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_192625_zpsjqrehcn6.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_192639_zpsrlgxqrq4.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_192639_zpsrlgxqrq4.jpg.html)

doctordoctor
09-10-2014, 12:18 AM
well I changed my mind and did it tonight!!

I was going to post up pics of it in usage..but something went horribly wrong

First off, it makes a lot of noise while running..noise that isnt continuous. a little bit RATTLY

and it got too hot to touch after about 60 seconds of usage!!

it really does look new..I believe the guy that sold it to me that said it was new, and that it was a sales demo

The taper has no markings on it at all except shelf corrosion

But its not easy to turn it..you cant spin it like a top and have it go round for a bit..it needs you to turn it by hand continuously

I popped open the back and it looks like there is grease on the bearing thats visible but who knows what the rest is

Could it be normal for it to get that hot with essentially no load? WTF?

Should I take the whole thing apart and check the bearings? but why would they be bad??

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140909_211403_zpstofnprnt.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140909_211403_zpstofnprnt.jpg.html)

adatesman
09-10-2014, 11:27 AM
Loving this! (Except for the last bit where it seems to not be working correctly... :( )

doctordoctor
09-10-2014, 11:35 AM
Loving this! (Except for the last bit where it seems to not be working correctly... :( )

me too its still fun even though at the moment I'm out $260 and its taking up a bunch of time lol..I'm still hopeful that worst case I can just buy $50 of bearings off ebay and fix it..or there is that sliver of a chance that its just something dumb that needs no parts to be replaced

BTW Kyoritsu told me this about its MSRP:

"according to current exchange rate, it is about 1980-2970USD " YIKES...so its at least worth TRYING to fix right?

Toolguy
09-10-2014, 11:39 AM
It should never get too hot to touch. Something is wrong. I don't think it will spin freely either, as it has 90 degeree bevel gears to go round the corner. One thing to check for is the bearings should only be 30% filled with grease. Too much grease will cause overheating. It is most likely something else though.

Dan Dubeau
09-10-2014, 11:40 AM
Our universal heads at work all run pretty hot. They're also speed limited, so check that your not over speeding it (and they also reverse direction). Forgive me if those seem obvious, but we had a shop borrow ours one time, and the guy brought it back saying it made alot of noise, and ruined his drill. He tried to run around 7500 rpm (ours are limited to 4000) and used M03.....They work awesome when used properly.

I've made stop blocks for both our haas mills to accept both styles of universal heads we have. One is an 18mm straight shank, and the other is a tapered shank that is adjustable up/down for a snug fit. I ground both adapters in so that the tapered pin fits both machines snugly without adjusting. Check its not binding that way and putting excess sideways pressure on the taper. That causes noise too.

doctordoctor
09-10-2014, 12:30 PM
Our universal heads at work all run pretty hot. They're also speed limited, so check that your not over speeding it (and they also reverse direction). Forgive me if those seem obvious, but we had a shop borrow ours one time, and the guy brought it back saying it made alot of noise, and ruined his drill. He tried to run around 7500 rpm (ours are limited to 4000) and used M03.....They work awesome when used properly.

I've made stop blocks for both our haas mills to accept both styles of universal heads we have. One is an 18mm straight shank, and the other is a tapered shank that is adjustable up/down for a snug fit. I ground both adapters in so that the tapered pin fits both machines snugly without adjusting. Check its not binding that way and putting excess sideways pressure on the taper. That causes noise too.

just for fun, got any pics of any of that? your stop blocks or RA heads? would be awesome to see!! BTW what material did you make the stop block out of? If/when I make a proper one I'd like it to interface with the stop pin without getting dented. I dont have anyway to grind or harden anything though.

Are you sure it cant be run in reverse? Why would the gear-train care? Wouldnt it be needed to do rigid tapping with it (reverse to back out?)

I made a video showing it in use, with the noises. I tried to listen for the noise with a stethoscope but it sounds the same everywhere on the housing. I cant feel what part gets hotter first because the housing spreads the heat out. So I guess I'll just have to take it apart.

The video shows it being run backwards, but the noise is the same in either direction.

This vid.me website can take a second for the video to start but it works..

When it shows up, click on the big picture of the video to start it then wait several seconds.
https://vid.me/4kP

Dan Dubeau
09-10-2014, 01:00 PM
just for fun, got any pics of any of that? your stop blocks or RA heads? would be awesome to see!! BTW what material did you make the stop block out of? If/when I make a proper one I'd like it to interface with the stop pin without getting dented. I dont have anyway to grind or harden anything though.

Are you sure it cant be run in reverse? Why would the gear-train care? Wouldnt it be needed to do rigid tapping with it (reverse to back out?)

I made a video showing it in use, with the noises. I tried to listen for the noise with a stethoscope but it sounds the same everywhere on the housing. I cant feel what part gets hotter first because the housing spreads the heat out. So I guess I'll just have to take it apart.

The video shows it being run backwards, but the noise is the same in either direction.

This vid.me website can take a second for the video to start but it works..

When it shows up, click on the big picture of the video to start it then wait several seconds.
https://vid.me/4kP

You can run it in reverse no problem, and I do it all the time running scribing programs. But it doesn't drill very well.....:) What I was trying to say, was that it reverses the direction of the input. A fact missed by the guy who borrowed ours.

I made mine out of 1018 I think. Mystery metal. But for the amount of times ours get used 2-3 times a week, I've seen no need to make them out of anything tougher. They've held up just fine for 2-3 years now (can't remember when we got the new head). I'll get a picture next time I'm out on the floor.

Just watched the video, and man is that little thing cute. I wish we had one that small, but we're cat40. Sounds normal to me. all of ours sound like there's gravel in there. Even the new one we just bought a few years ago sounded like that out of the box. I think it was around $3500-4500 can't remember (I didn't pay for it). But that was the first thing we noticed when we ran it, was the sound, but apparently it's normal.

doctordoctor
09-10-2014, 01:18 PM
You can run it in reverse no problem, and I do it all the time running scribing programs. But it doesn't drill very well.....:) What I was trying to say, was that it reverses the direction of the input. A fact missed by the guy who borrowed ours.

I made mine out of 1018 I think. Mystery metal. But for the amount of times ours get used 2-3 times a week, I've seen no need to make them out of anything tougher. They've held up just fine for 2-3 years now (can't remember when we got the new head). I'll get a picture next time I'm out on the floor.

Just watched the video, and man is that little thing cute. I wish we had one that small, but we're cat40. Sounds normal to me. all of ours sound like there's gravel in there. Even the new one we just bought a few years ago sounded like that out of the box. I think it was around $3500-4500 can't remember (I didn't pay for it). But that was the first thing we noticed when we ran it, was the sound, but apparently it's normal.

I know isnt it just a darling?? It only weighs about 2 lbs and it will even fit in the tool changer once I pocket the change out just a teeny bit.

So you are saying it sounds normal?? Aghhh now I dont know what to think. I cant imagine it was supposed to get that hot though...

So I took it apart a little more..looks expensive..

The front bearing seems very smooth..the back one with the gear not so much..I can feel little "bumps" or something..hard to tell if its really bad or not though but Im leaning towards bad

Some very thin shims on the rear bearing..I guess that sets the preload along with the little disc that pinches it all together.

Still have the drive shaft bearings to check out..

I wonder what precision these bearings are..the rear one has "7003", "CM555", "JAPAN D NSK 7003C P5" printed on it.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140910_101042_zpseivhijyh.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140910_101042_zpseivhijyh.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140910_101048_zps7sxlmkg2.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140910_101048_zps7sxlmkg2.jpg.html)

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140910_101439_zpshlpq8p69.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140910_101439_zpshlpq8p69.jpg.html)
hmmmm....

doctordoctor
09-10-2014, 01:35 PM
okay I just did a test

with the output shaft removed, so that now only the input shaft spins on its bearings and there is no gear meshing at all, the head runs silent..I cant hear anything

I ran it at 6000 rpm for 10 minutes..it got up to 115F on the outside..probably higher if you take into account the error in the temperature gun from the shiny surface

It feels very warm...I could easily imagine if you add two more bearings how much hotter it would get.

So maybe this is normal? Do precision preloaded bearings heat up this much with no load at this rpm?

Glug
09-10-2014, 02:17 PM
I wonder if those gears could benefit from some break-in at lower speeds? If it was an automotive rear end, you'd check the tooth engagement with some titanium dioxide paste. And you would measure that there was approprite gear clearance, as verified by the amount of gear lash.

Could you run that bearing with the unit disassembled and see whether it gets hot? (I see that you've done this since I began my post)

doctordoctor
09-10-2014, 03:03 PM
I wonder if those gears could benefit from some break-in at lower speeds? If it was an automotive rear end, you'd check the tooth engagement with some titanium dioxide paste. And you would measure that there was approprite gear clearance, as verified by the amount of gear lash.

Could you run that bearing with the unit disassembled and see whether it gets hot? (I see that you've done this since I began my post)

I'm kinda wondering that too..but I bet they do all that at the factory..its gotta be good to go out of the box

Welp I think I hit a road block on further disassembly. The drive gear has about a dozen super thin shims under it, which bottom out on a nut. I think if I take that nut off, then I lose the precision shimming and I wont be able to duplicate it because I dont have a way to measure gear mesh.

There are two bearings on the drive shaft..they are roller type (the output is ball).

They arent super easy to spin but arent hard to spin either. Maybe its okay.

I'm starting to wonder if there is nothing wrong at all with this thing..its just loud and gets hot. I think it was more like 10 min at 6000 rpm that I got it warmed up originally..and maybe thats normal.

But man it sure does sound rattly and it just seems odd to get that hot with no load..

Is there some way I can shoot grease into all the bearings without being able to get to them? And what can I use? I have a big tub of lithium grease, and also engine assembly lube. Either of those appropriate?

I think I'm going to have to put it back together..I'm outta ideas.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/20140910_105822_zpsiucap4r0.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/acannell/media/20140910_105822_zpsiucap4r0.jpg.html)

doctordoctor
09-10-2014, 03:27 PM
odd video on youtube appears to be a technician at Lyndex/Nikken testing a right angle head on some kind of spindle fixture and discussing the temperature it reaches after 10 minutes being 90F? someone in the background can be heard saying something like "the grease breaks down at 80C".

this RA head sounds way better than mine...HMM the mystery continues!

ive emailed Kyoritsu the video of mine and maybe they can thumb up/down the noise


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08PtPV_A1_k

Glug
09-10-2014, 03:44 PM
Is there some way I can shoot grease into all the bearings without being able to get to them? And what can I use? I have a big tub of lithium grease, and also engine assembly lube. Either of those appropriate?


Grease is apparently a very complicated thing. Klubers is some very special stuff for spindle bearings. It has a dramatic impact on the "bearing speed factor". And too much grease is a bad thing. Beyond specialized greases, I'm not sure what would be best. Mobil 1 synthetic wheel bearing grease?

http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2010/04/27/klubers-magic-spindle-bearing-grease/

You have suggested it should have been broken in at the factory, but shouldn't it also have been properly greased? Greasing is easier than breaking in. I understand rebuilt spindles need a break in procedure. Part of it involves the distribution of grease. Of course you don't just have bearings, but gears too. Will grease trap wear metals in the gear teeth?

I would expect those small gears to build heat, and you do not have an oil bath to carry it away. So what is the duty cycle on this thing? I wonder if it would be worth epoxying, or otherwise attaching, a temp sender to the unit? Then you could accurately record temp vs. time.

Btw, have you tried to measure whether there is any lash in the gear set? Lock one shaft, and see how much play is in the other. It might be something to measure and then re-check in the future.

Break-in example:

http://www.spsspindle.com/Spindle-Run-in-Procedure

doctordoctor
09-10-2014, 05:24 PM
Grease is apparently a very complicated thing. Klubers is some very special stuff for spindle bearings. It has a dramatic impact on the "bearing speed factor". And too much grease is a bad thing. Beyond specialized greases, I'm not sure what would be best. Mobil 1 synthetic wheel bearing grease?

http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2010/04/27/klubers-magic-spindle-bearing-grease/

You have suggested it should have been broken in at the factory, but shouldn't it also have been properly greased? Greasing is easier than breaking in. I understand rebuilt spindles need a break in procedure. Part of it involves the distribution of grease. Of course you don't just have bearings, but gears too. Will grease trap wear metals in the gear teeth?

I would expect those small gears to build heat, and you do not have an oil bath to carry it away. So what is the duty cycle on this thing? I wonder if it would be worth epoxying, or otherwise attaching, a temp sender to the unit? Then you could accurately record temp vs. time.

Btw, have you tried to measure whether there is any lash in the gear set? Lock one shaft, and see how much play is in the other. It might be something to measure and then re-check in the future.

Break-in example:

http://www.spsspindle.com/Spindle-Run-in-Procedure

OKAY NEWS FLASH!!

I reassembled it and ran it literally just for a few seconds.

The FRONT FACE of the output shaft gets very very hot almost immediately!!

The rubber lip seal on the output side seals against the machined surface of the ER20 collet receptacle...how is this supposed to stay lubed?? I tried greasing it but no change. Is there supposed to be a reservoir of oil somewhere??

macona
09-11-2014, 02:20 AM
How fast are you running it?

These are greased, no oil.

Dan Dubeau
09-11-2014, 06:19 AM
Sorry I got sidetracked yesterday. I took the pictures, but forgot to post them. Anyway...Here are they are. On the haas spindle face there are two 10-32 tapped holes. I just measured and drew up the important info for both heads, then rotated the 18mm about the spindle center line so that it would clear the tapered one, while leaving enough room to mount.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/danrdubeau/shop%20made%20tools/th_10613C62-8B2A-4752-BE32-7DB796417287_zpslfistox9.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/danrdubeau/media/shop%20made%20tools/10613C62-8B2A-4752-BE32-7DB796417287_zpslfistox9.jpg.html)http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/danrdubeau/shop%20made%20tools/th_415D8279-2178-4D53-8BF7-20B5880979E5_zpsjojdoewf.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/danrdubeau/media/shop%20made%20tools/415D8279-2178-4D53-8BF7-20B5880979E5_zpsjojdoewf.jpg.html)http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/danrdubeau/shop%20made%20tools/th_CB708FE3-11AD-4E5E-96F1-770FA5C952FA_zpsmbhtjxz1.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/danrdubeau/media/shop%20made%20tools/CB708FE3-11AD-4E5E-96F1-770FA5C952FA_zpsmbhtjxz1.jpg.html)

I made 2 of them to fit both the vf3, and vf6. When I mounted them I ground in the backside so that the tapered shank head can be left at the same setting when swapping between machines.

On a side note, the newest head we have (gs tooling, tapered shank one) has a "coolant through" provision built into the anti-rotation stud. The coolant is supposed to run into the stud, through the head, and out the face near the tool. I was going to make a provision for that, but time constraints (needed it asap) put it on hold. I just point a coolant nozzle at the head itself to keep it cool and it does fine. Both heads run hot if ran long at high rpm (3500) dry. I'm not sure what the max rpm of yours is, but If I ran mine at 6000 rpm I could probably cook my breakfast on it, if it held together long enough. I'm not familiar with the smaller ones, but I suspect your heat problems may be related to over speeding.

doctordoctor
09-11-2014, 09:45 AM
Sorry I got sidetracked yesterday. I took the pictures, but forgot to post them. Anyway...Here are they are. On the haas spindle face there are two 10-32 tapped holes. I just measured and drew up the important info for both heads, then rotated the 18mm about the spindle center line so that it would clear the tapered one, while leaving enough room to mount.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/danrdubeau/shop%20made%20tools/th_10613C62-8B2A-4752-BE32-7DB796417287_zpslfistox9.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/danrdubeau/media/shop%20made%20tools/10613C62-8B2A-4752-BE32-7DB796417287_zpslfistox9.jpg.html)http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/danrdubeau/shop%20made%20tools/th_415D8279-2178-4D53-8BF7-20B5880979E5_zpsjojdoewf.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/danrdubeau/media/shop%20made%20tools/415D8279-2178-4D53-8BF7-20B5880979E5_zpsjojdoewf.jpg.html)http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/danrdubeau/shop%20made%20tools/th_CB708FE3-11AD-4E5E-96F1-770FA5C952FA_zpsmbhtjxz1.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/danrdubeau/media/shop%20made%20tools/CB708FE3-11AD-4E5E-96F1-770FA5C952FA_zpsmbhtjxz1.jpg.html)

I made 2 of them to fit both the vf3, and vf6. When I mounted them I ground in the backside so that the tapered shank head can be left at the same setting when swapping between machines.

On a side note, the newest head we have (gs tooling, tapered shank one) has a "coolant through" provision built into the anti-rotation stud. The coolant is supposed to run into the stud, through the head, and out the face near the tool. I was going to make a provision for that, but time constraints (needed it asap) put it on hold. I just point a coolant nozzle at the head itself to keep it cool and it does fine. Both heads run hot if ran long at high rpm (3500) dry. I'm not sure what the max rpm of yours is, but If I ran mine at 6000 rpm I could probably cook my breakfast on it, if it held together long enough. I'm not familiar with the smaller ones, but I suspect your heat problems may be related to over speeding.

Looks awesome!! Wow you must be able to basically machine anything. Do you ever use both heads, adjusted to different angles, on the same job? Any pics of the stuff you've made using them?

Kyoritsu seems to think that the RA head I have is okay to 6,000 rpm. The mystery part is how noisy and how hot they are supposed to get..and I simply don't know. Kyoritsu seems to think its getting too hot, but its all a bit subjective and there is some translation difficulties.

How much motion do you get at the end of the head? I.e. the spindle runout is really magnified at that distance I would imagine. I'm getting a few thou. Also, if you run yours at say 3500 rpm for 20 seconds, does the output near the lip seal get very hot right away?

Dan Dubeau
09-11-2014, 12:47 PM
Looks awesome!! Wow you must be able to basically machine anything. Do you ever use both heads, adjusted to different angles, on the same job? Any pics of the stuff you've made using them?
They come in handy for the work we do. We run into a lot of 3d ball cutting undercuts, so sometimes it's the only way (with a 3 axis VMC) to cut a surface. That said, we mostly use them for scribing lines, as they really aren't all that rigid when you start hanging a 4" long 1/2" ball out of the end. I don't have any current pics, as I just got a new phone, and there are really no interesting jobs on the floor that I can show. The green sowa one is too wore out to use, it's only used as a spare. Or the odd time, both of us each need one at the same time.


Kyoritsu seems to think that the RA head I have is okay to 6,000 rpm. The mystery part is how noisy and how hot they are supposed to get..and I simply don't know. Kyoritsu seems to think its getting too hot, but its all a bit subjective and there is some translation difficulties.

How much motion do you get at the end of the head? I.e. the spindle runout is really magnified at that distance I would imagine. I'm getting a few thou. Also, if you run yours at say 3500 rpm for 20 seconds, does the output near the lip seal get very hot right away?

We get a few thou wiggle/runout at the end of say, a 4" tool. It's a bit of an art setting them sometimes when trying to blend into existing surfaces. There are a few factors at play that you must pay attention to, or they will bite you. Heat is a big one, as it will grow, and on long programs with little or no coolant it will gouge more at the end, than at the beginning do to "growth". 3500 for 20 seconds would not cause enough heat to be alarming

doctordoctor
09-11-2014, 12:56 PM
They come in handy for the work we do. We run into a lot of 3d ball cutting undercuts, so sometimes it's the only way (with a 3 axis VMC) to cut a surface. That said, we mostly use them for scribing lines, as they really aren't all that rigid when you start hanging a 4" long 1/2" ball out of the end. I don't have any current pics, as I just got a new phone, and there are really no interesting jobs on the floor that I can show. The green sowa one is too wore out to use, it's only used as a spare. Or the odd time, both of us each need one at the same time.



We get a few thou wiggle/runout at the end of say, a 4" tool. It's a bit of an art setting them sometimes when trying to blend into existing surfaces. There are a few factors at play that you must pay attention to, or they will bite you. Heat is a big one, as it will grow, and on long programs with little or no coolant it will gouge more at the end, than at the beginning do to "growth". 3500 for 20 seconds would not cause enough heat to be alarming

I think I'll be modifying my stop block to have a dedicated coolant output for cooling just the head itself, and use my normal coolant system for the actual cut.

I meant the wiggle on the head itself, since its essentially a 6 to 8" long "tool" sticking out of the spindle. Does it move around noticeably?

Dan Dubeau
09-11-2014, 01:52 PM
I think I'll be modifying my stop block to have a dedicated coolant output for cooling just the head itself, and use my normal coolant system for the actual cut.

I meant the wiggle on the head itself, since its essentially a 6 to 8" long "tool" sticking out of the spindle. Does it move around noticeably?

there's a little wiggle out at the end but it's tough to feel where it's coming from, as it's a thou here, though there etc...

doctordoctor
09-11-2014, 02:06 PM
hmm one things for sure I'm learning more and more about bearings and lip seals...maybe the heat I'm feeling at the tip is normal..now all I need is to find data showing bearing temperature rise vs rpm and see if that jives too..

http://www.devriesintl.com/matsel/images/graphic_temp_chart_3.gif