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View Full Version : Decisions Decisions!!!



David Powell
09-20-2014, 08:47 AM
I am just heading towards my 65 th birthday. I am ready to close my business and become a hobbyist again. The city has grown towards us, our tiny bungalow on a big lot is now rapidly becoming surrounded by monster homes, hence we could cash out, move to a small town and have some dollars in our pockets. My tools are in the basement, the machines are perhaps more of a liability than an asset, to get them out would be a lot of work. Aside from all the usual stuff( New doctors, new friends, new supermarkets etc etc) associated with such a move what suggestion would the gang offer---- get movers in and take the lot, sell the machines for what I could get,keep one mill and lathe sell the rest, or??? I am really not strong nor healthy enough to move them myself in a short time. There are other factors which may affect our decisions--- we might just stay, but we want to thoroughly examine all our options before making any binding decisions. Looking for advice from all who have made such moves. Regards David Powell.

Wayne Sippola
09-20-2014, 09:01 AM
I've moved my shop many times, but only the last 4 or so had any significant machine tools. Unless you're moving the machines yourself, you'll probably lose less money by selling them and buying replacements after you move. You're in a machine rich area, you can wait for the right machine at the right price. And who doesn't like buying more machines!

Keep most of the tooling and measuring stuff, get rid of the heavy stuff. Depending on just how hard it will be to move them, you'll have to price accordingly to sell machines when you can't load. It adds a significant PIA factor to the buyer, and there's lots of machines to be had that are easy to load.

Rosco-P
09-20-2014, 09:16 AM
Other Canadians have led me to believe that no part of Canada was a "machine rich area". The heavy stuff, is probably going to be the hardest to replace. If you can transport them yourself, consider using a rigger just to get them out of the basement. Unless the tooling is very unique special purpose, that would be the easiest to replace. Find/build a ground level shop at you next location.

J Tiers
09-20-2014, 09:42 AM
My thought on moving machines is to first look at what I have.... if you sell and re-buy, you lose all the knowledge of what your particular machines are/do/have as quirks. The new ones will be different. Maybe you will be amazed at how much nicer they are, or maybe you will wish you had the old ones, don't know.

Also makes a difference if you have adapted the machines to what you want... you have all that to do over if you sell and re-buy.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON I know who has got sucked into the 'sell it all and buy again at the new place" lie has lost significant money on the deal. Stuff does not sell at any sensible amount compared to re-buying new, figure the best you do is 30% of new price, and that is on the best stuff.

Re-buying used will probably take you as long as it did to get the stuff in the first place. Not a good retirement prospect.

Machines are one thing, but all the other tools are another. NO WAY you will ever get the same setup going... especially in a small town.

And most have noticed that what they re-bought wasn't as nice. Of course, much of that was household goods and furniture, etc, but.......... the point remains. Sell a nice back geared lathe, buy a new chinese without back gears and with a slowest speed 6x faster. Sell Indestro and Vlchek , buy Chang Yau.

Your choice.

goose
09-20-2014, 09:55 AM
What about your business ? Does it have any value ? Intellectual property, list of clients, trademarks, etc all can be considered assets. You could sell your business and all or part of your machines as a package deal, to either someone starting out or an existing business to augment their income.

justanengineer
09-20-2014, 10:05 AM
JMO, but no way I would retire and make the move simultaneous, thats one of the killers that Ive seen of retirement funds. Several of my parents' (retired almost 20 years) friends retired and moved elsewhere only to find they were spending more to live life in a cheaper town or overbudget in others bc they werent from there, couldnt get the same deals/cut costs as they did previously, or simply ran into unexpected costs on other things (ie. living in small town, BFE is cheaper, but you need more gas to go anywhere other than small town, BFE).

I would try retirement for a few years to see how much you really are spending, and if youre not significantly beneath your budget I'd stay where you are. Otherwise, buy the new house first and simply fill the new shop accordingly. At least when Ive moved, Ive always had quite a bit of valuable junk that didnt work/fit/other with the new house.

Jon Heron
09-20-2014, 10:22 AM
Congratulations David!
Sorry I dont have much advice for you but moving away from Toronto is certainly a good decision as far as I am concerned!
Consider looking around the Elora, Fergus area north of Guelph, its laid back and the property tax is affordable. And all of the amenity's of the big city are within a half hours drive without needing to fight traffic. We love it here.
How big are the machines that your considering moving/dealing with?
Cheers,
Jon

thaiguzzi
09-20-2014, 10:39 AM
My thought on moving machines is to first look at what I have.... if you sell and re-buy, you lose all the knowledge of what your particular machines are/do/have as quirks. The new ones will be different. Maybe you will be amazed at how much nicer they are, or maybe you will wish you had the old ones, don't know.

Also makes a difference if you have adapted the machines to what you want... you have all that to do over if you sell and re-buy.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON I know who has got sucked into the 'sell it all and buy again at the new place" lie has lost significant money on the deal. Stuff does not sell at any sensible amount compared to re-buying new, figure the best you do is 30% of new price, and that is on the best stuff.

Re-buying used will probably take you as long as it did to get the stuff in the first place. Not a good retirement prospect.

Machines are one thing, but all the other tools are another. NO WAY you will ever get the same setup going... especially in a small town.

And most have noticed that what they re-bought wasn't as nice. Of course, much of that was household goods and furniture, etc, but.......... the point remains. Sell a nice back geared lathe, buy a new chinese without back gears and with a slowest speed 6x faster. Sell Indestro and Vlchek , buy Chang Yau.

Your choice.

+1.
Very wise words from uncle Jerry. Some stuff is damn hard to replace.

Wayne Sippola
09-20-2014, 03:42 PM
There is no shortage of used milling machines and lathes within the Toronto area. The machines, assuming typical machines, will not be hard to replace. Especially if you take your time and wait for the machine with the features you want. I sold my larger mill and lathe before moving to the area, and had replacements before I finished building my shop, because the deals were too good to turn down on machines which had what I wanted. I've lived in areas without machine tools to be found - SE Ontario is not one of them!

That also means you won't get much for your machines when they're hard to load. But if you don't want to move them personally, your options are limited. I would expect the cost to move them out of your basement to wherever is going to push the value of the machines. I could be way off on this, but riggers don't work cheap. Transports not cheap. Riggers on the other end may or may not be needed. You haven't mentioned what size machinery, but I'm thinking along the lines of 1000 - 2000lb machines. Given they're in your basement, they may be significantly smaller, which does help your situation.

For me, the tooling would be far harder to replace than the most of my machines.

Alistair Hosie
09-20-2014, 04:09 PM
FUNNY MR SIPOLLA I HAD A FRIEND WHO WAS A PRIEST CALLED SICOLA HE NEVER MADE POPE THOUGH AS POPESICOLA SOUNDED TOO MUCH like the well known!!! what was it again?
Now seriously my dear friend I too would advise you to slow down and make no changes for a while when the day comes. Your propert surely won't deminish in price if you wait .I would like to see a man who has worked all his life get some enjoyment out of retirement.My FATHER and my UNCLES TWO off and my mother in law my older brother all died at age 61 or thereabouts and never saw retirement. So have a great time sincerest best wishes and also a wonderful time ahead . Alistair

Weston Bye
09-20-2014, 04:58 PM
...Consider looking around the Elora, Fergus area north of Guelph....
Jon

My great grandfather was from there before he emigrated to the States at the end of the 19th century and homesteaded in Montana. I believe that there are some Byes in the area that would be distant cousins. Can't say that makes the place a better or worse place to live...

mike4
09-20-2014, 10:17 PM
I would discuss the costs of moving the equipment out of the basement with a rigger/rigging company and as someone has mentioned building a ground level shop .
Once these costs have been established then consider you options for moving or otherwise .

I hope it all comes together for you .
Michael

darryl
09-20-2014, 11:09 PM
I would not want to sell and buy again- but I might buy more machines. JT made some good points, and I agree with Mike- ask about having someone or a company move the machines. It won't be cheap, but it might be cheaper than selling and buying again- and you'll need help installing the new machines also.

Frank Ford
09-21-2014, 02:07 AM
I agree with those guys ahead of me - get a quote from some good riggers to move your stuff. Then, consider what you might expect to lose or gain by selling it and buying other tools in your new location.

If you decide to make the move, TAKE THE RIGGER'S DEAL whatever the price.

Consider the difference between your best case scenario and the cost of the rigger to be insurance on the equipment, and your health & sanity. . .

GT1
09-21-2014, 08:09 AM
My guess is that the machines will have to be moved no matter what, if you leave. That being the case, if someone buys them, they will consider the price of riggers in determining the final price they are willing to pay; that will certainly lower the price you will get. Worse yet is that they don't use riggers, they try and move them on their own and get hurt. Lastly, if you buy new machines (to you) at your new location, you still will user riggers if you have any doubts about moving them yourself. After having a mill, lathe,..., I can't imagine not having them, particularly if I was retired with a lot of time on my hands. I also find selling equipment like that by a particular date if a move is involved, may force you into a fire sale. Take your mechanical friends with you.

Peter.
09-21-2014, 08:28 AM
Why not factor-in moving your plant as part of the property sale? If the area is under development and mansions being built they would probably look at tearing down the bungalow. A property developer might be willing to shift your gear for free if it sweeten's the deal to their benefit, and you play it cute enough.

brian Rupnow
09-21-2014, 08:40 AM
Jon Heron is right. He lives in a beautiful part of Ontario, and real estate is a bit cheaper there. I live in Barrie, which, although it is a truly beautiful part of Ontario is within commuting distance of Toronto. That fact keeps our real estate ridiculously high here, although cheaper than Toronto. Ontario is relatively tool rich with the qualifier --IF YOU LIVE IN OR NEAR THE TORONTO/MISSISSAUGA/OAKVILLE/KITCHENER/GUELPH area. You won't get much money for your machine tools if you sell them. We have still not recovered from the great recession which began in 2008, and the used machinery dealers have literally tons of equipment from bankrupt machine shops that they can't get rid of. I am in total agreement with you that the pace of life is a bit slower and more pleasant in the smaller rural areas, but I wouldn't even consider selling your machines and buying new ones after you move. You will lose money doing that. Get a quote from a rigger to move your existing machinery. Riggers too are still hurting from the 2008 crash, and you might be surprised how little it costs to move what you have.---Brian

sasquatch
09-21-2014, 01:41 PM
X2, i'm with Brian on this.

loose nut
09-21-2014, 04:52 PM
There are lots of really nice places in Ontario, without going to a remote area, that you could buy a new house for about 1/3 or less than what you sell your current one for. Just get out of the Greater Toronto area, also known as the center of the known universe by the people that live there and a good nuclear strike target by the rest of Canada.

mikem
09-22-2014, 09:31 AM
If you like your machines, move them with you--I would not want to sell mine and buy someone else's machines. Who knows how they have been treated?

If yours have quirks that annoy you, dump them!

Moving is expensive in general. You'll lose your connections with your doctor, friends and suppliers....where to get a piece of steel at 9 o'clock on a Saturday night! Best of luck!

mygrizzly1022
09-23-2014, 10:48 AM
Hi David

Having just gone through this process I can certainly relate to your dilemma.
You need to ask yourself some tough questions. What do you see yourself realistically doing once settled in your new surroundings? Is your current inventory of machines overkill, or would down sizing make sense?

Finding a new property with an adequate work shop space can be a challenge. My wife and I looked at a great number of retirement appropriate properties and finding a place with a decent space for a shop that met our other important criteria was a challenge.

My advice would be to scope out the real-estate opportunities in you chosen community before you make any decisions regarding moving your treasures. One good way to do that is cruise the reality open houses in the area and get a feel for what is out there that would suit your needs. The answer to what to do with stuff becomes much clearer once you now what kind of space you have to work with!

Bert

garagemark
09-23-2014, 01:22 PM
The tools are likely a liability in any scenario. It will be nothing short of a miracle that you will find a home buyer who wants a mass of tools in their basementÖ or would pay extra for them. On the other hand, if a potential buyer is only looking for property to improve, the tools could be destroyed anyway while having the land prepared for his new McMansion. Machine tools are probably just not his interest.

So, if you go, I suggest that your tools tag along with you if possible, unless you will not be using them once retired. Around here riggers are reasonable (I wonít call them cheap). Most rigging /movers will come out to survey the job for free. Itíll at least give you an idea of what you could be up against.

I had my entire shop moved last year from West Virginia to Northern Indiana (many heavy cast iron tools for both metal and woodworking). Unfortunately for reference, I didnít pay for it; my new employer did. I had two stuffed to the doors 53 foot trailers and a 26 foot box truck. Neither the company nor movers would tell me what it all cost. I probably would have had a stroke, and I suspect they did!