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mike4
10-31-2014, 06:29 PM
The recent discussion on devices to convert single phase supply to three phase pompted me to ask why there is so much resistance to people who suggest the use of three phase diesel gen sets to ,
(a) supply three phase to premises at an affordable price when it is required
(b) provide a reliable backup for the mains supply 24/7

I have noticed that all of the same is rolled out eg diesel sets are dirty and noisy, that only true if they are not maintained properly .

They are expensive to run , that depends on several factors , I find that not having power is a bigger inconvenience than a few dollars worth of diesel .

The current attitude of the suppliers is also not conducive to total reliance on their poorly designed system (no redundancy)

The people who choose to use other means of providing their power can do so with no concerns from me, however to constantly dismiss gensets as a reliable alternative baffles me.

It is a choice which solves two problems to me, whereas the alternatives dont give any form of supply backup.

Also the other forms of fuel are more of a risk to property than the diesel is , it doesnt always get a chance to have bacteria grow if you use it regularly , as I have seem people put forward with the gasolene/petrol offerings which have to be drained and cleaned or the fuel systems are gunked up .

I also would like to know why people constantly assume that we all have the same approach and attitude towards the methods of finding solutions to problems like this.

Let the fun begin.

Michael

darryl
10-31-2014, 08:09 PM
Ok, I'll start the fun- to my mind, if you use logic and reason, the solution that is appropriate for you will come out. For example, if you're in a crowded residential area, the noise and smell from a diesel genset may not be appropro, but if you are on a farm it might make the most sense. Figuring out how much backup power you would need and for how long and how often would be a sensible place to start.

If you are in the 'sunshine belt', and could or would ramp up a solar system to supply your needs, then your 'backup' might become no more than adding some extra batteries to the system so you can run longer without sun.

I personally see backup power as being little more than what's needed to keep the fridge running and the furnace motor and controls running. Probably the computer too, and minimal lights. I can do without the computer if the power is out temporarily- some people can't. All that's really important for me is to keep the furnace running- if it's cold enough outside that I need the furnace, it's probably cold enough to keep a few fridge things cool. Usually when it's cold- that's when the power might be out for more than an hour or so. I don't keep much in the freezer, so I wouldn't have to worry about that.

It's just me here though- if you have a family, and particularly the old folks at home, you will want to keep a fair bit of power going. Something like a 5kw genset might not cut it- then you would want a more powerful and permanent type of generator.

The type of fuel- for a small and seldom used genset, I think I would prefer propane. For reasons already mentioned, I would prefer to stay away from gasoline, though that is probably the most common fuel used. I don't like diesel exhaust, so unless it was something I was going to use a lot and needed significant power levels, I personally would avoid diesel. But if I was already using it to run a fleet of machines, etc, then that would sway my decision.

lakeside53
10-31-2014, 08:17 PM
I suspect most have no idea that you have an unreliable grid (are you even on a "gridded' system?) supply, or one at least more unreliable than you can deal with..

In the USA most of the population is served by a grid that is "sufficiently reliable for use"... and very redundant. And... most here are HOME SHOP machinists. I know of a dozen or so medium to large commercial machine shops locally. None have genset for backup or feel they have the need to use one provide 3 phase where it's not available. Why not? For "backup" it's simply a cost verses benefit equation, and the costs vastly outweigh the potential losses from short term business disruption. Get a flood, hurricane or tornado, and you have far more problems to deal with than loss of power. If you want to "discuss" this with pro machine shops, post on PM.


At home I have a single phase 10kw genset and a Phase Perfect (shop) NOT connected to the genset. Why a genset? I'm very rural, on the end of a single feeder surrounded by 175 foot trees; not "redundant grid", but.. it's a residential area. When the power is out (several times a year) , I could care less about machining other than to run a chainsaw sharpener.

I design and build data centers, places where power is critical for thousands to 10's of millions of users. On a recent 500kw genset/ups system in downtown Seattle (small system), in 3 years it's had one case where the genset was actually needed to bridge the ups/hvac and that was a programed outage where the utility needed to replace an underground feeder. We could have rented a genset for that use. Sure.. many power "hits", but most last a few seconds when breakers were reset or feeders switched in. Ok... one day we'll need it (because the business can't be "off-line" even for a few minutes), but it is a rare occurrence.


As with many of your posts you see yourself as a victim of "big business"; in this case, YOUR power utility. Maybe where YOU choose to live, but around here... the power utility workers are heros... they go way above and beyond to get OUR power back.

J Tiers
10-31-2014, 09:32 PM
To be fair, MANY powercos have cut way back on maintenance, no tree clearing, etc. Predictably, there have been problems, such as across the street from us.

For years the 3 phase feeder behind the houses across the street has been "out" at least once and many times twice per year. Once it was out for 3 days in July, and a week in December. Both times our power was OK....

Once a tree fall dropped the 4160V feeder into the house lines for a house on the next block. Blew the breakers in the panel out the front of the panel, destroyed every scrap of electrical wiring in the house, and I have no idea why there was no fire.

By now, the stock of problem trees is getting low, and the powerco finally figured out that it was cheaper to maintain the line. This is NOT out in the sticks, it is right in town.

But, if your particular outage is small, you are going to be last in line for the limited number of available line workers, and it could be as long as two weeks to get power back. It was for some folks in the two longer outages

alanganes
10-31-2014, 09:41 PM
I live in a pretty densely populated area. We lose power maybe once or twice per year for a few hours.
I have a gasoline generator for anything longer but have needed it maybe 3 times in 10 years. If I did not have it, I would not have missed out on much.

I think a diesel genset is a great idea, but for most in my situation it is just a costly solution to a problem they don't have. If outages were frequent where I lived, I'd likely have one.

ironmonger
10-31-2014, 10:07 PM
I have no problem with alternate power supplies, but I wonder if the better fuel might be propane in areas where it is not prohibitively expensive. If you loose power as often as Mike seems to, the diesel is better than gasoline, The high occurrence of outages would guarantee a quick turn over of fuel.

Propane will last for longer than I can guess, and unlike diesel it wont go 'bad' in storage... don't even think about storing gasoline that long without treatment. Everyone with ethanol fuel knows about short storage times. I use low ethanol fuel with Stabil and Isoheat for storage times around 5 to 6 months without a problem.

In our area natural gas is available, and many of the standby systems can use either natural gas or propane without a problem, and can auto-switch to propane if the natural gas is interrupted.

I heard about some Australians that were experimenting with liquid propane injection systems for automotive engines. The story was that the same injectors could be used with adjustments to the fuel map. Propane is comfortable with around 14:1 compression ratios. With the common gasoline we can get now even 10:1 is nuts. An added advantage would be very low temps once the liquid propane was injected into the intake port... nice dense air mix and I don't think you would have to worry about fuel vaporization like gasoline. I doubt you could keep the propane liquefied.

If I had a Lister CS it would be fun to see if they could run on propane in place of the diesel. I don't know if liquid propane has any lubricating properties. It would need them to be fed with the standard diesel injector pump. Odds are I wont find a Lister to putz with... and if I did it would be years getting to it :>)

paul

justanengineer
10-31-2014, 10:09 PM
I grew up out in the sticks and have since lived in some rather remote areas. Even where my folks live now in one of the deepest snow areas in the country, power is ridiculously reliable. I can only remember one time in 31 years where the power was out more than a few hours, once when it was out for about 10 days ~20 years ago in a very unique situation. Even then, making do without power in January was such a minor inconvenience that we never hooked one up, and we had a shop full of them (Dad was a dealer for many years). I just dont see "need" for power.

JMHO, but if I wanted the luxury I'd be connecting a natural gas genset to limit fuel concerns, no need to ever handle any nor worry about its availability locally.

As to using a genset for 3 phase power, with the low cost of VFDs and phase converters I dont see much need. Granted, used industrial gensets are fairly cheap but so are phase-perfects on the used market, with basically no maintenance.

oldtiffie
10-31-2014, 10:24 PM
Our power goes "out" about three times a year - at least once for "maintenance" and others due to tree falls or incompetent drivers of vehicles slamming into power poles.

We are on a 2-phase 230v 50~ 60 amps per phase power supply.

I have two "Honda" single phase gen sets and I also use them around the property (1.5 acres ~ 0.6hectares) when I want to use power tools away from the house and shed/shop - so I have the use of all my powered toolas and don't have to rely (or buy) battered powered portable tools - and certainly not air-powered tools.

We are quite comfortable in the event of mains power going out - one gen set for the house and the other for the shed/shop for limited power tools and lighting.

We do have LPG (aka propane) lighting as well.

The gen sets also power the several UPS's that we have in the house as well.

There are many older people around here who need a guaranteed/very reliable power supply for vital medical equipment such as oxygen supply and even re-charging powered wheel-chairs or "scooters" etc.

If and/or when I need 3-phase (for the shed/shop) I would get it by a gen set so avoiding reducing my available single phase supply. I would go for the 3-phase gen-set - probably gasoline-powered for the comfort of others - with diesel as a fall-back/alternative.

Any help here?

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=3+phase+generator&biw=1920&bih=845&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=5UlUVJHGIIf88QWuiICYDg&sqi=2&ved=0CFgQsAQ

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=3+phase+generator

mike4
11-01-2014, 12:00 AM
I really dont care if the power only goes off once or twice a year , but I pay for the power that I use and is only getting more expensive .

I have worked at sites which are totally powered by diesel gensets for months , on all of these petrol /gas is prohibited for safety reasons including vehicles.

The humm of the gensets is not annoying , there is very little smell if any and some of these are several kva , in fact there is often enough capacity to run an average town.

They possibly use 2-800 litres a day for the big ones the little 10 kva unit only seem to use 50 litres .

No fuel is sitting long enough to go stale or have the bacteria grow in filters etc.

That sort of situation is what I mean to also have at my shop I expect 24/7/365 power availability when I want to do anything .

The attitude of the management of the supply companies is to me one of arrogance and indifference .

None would last a day with me as their "its only a short outage , and we may restore it in a day or so" mentality,.

I do realize that if a line is down ,poles damaged or a major transformer is damaged it may take some time to restore but to not really care if people cant work is something I will never tolerate.

As for flooding and other disasters we deal with that as it comes and from what I have seem we will have to be more self sufficient as all levels of government are doing less for the community unless you know how to suck up big time.

Sporting events seem to be more important than any thing else , as are the churches and other so called important groups.

Businesses are less important than homes which are way down the list of priorities , I couldnt care less if streetlights didnt work or the traffic lights were out at some of the minor intersections.

Also a lot of people wont work past 12 hours or on weekends , there seem to be more restrictions being put on those who are prepared to push the limits to get every thing back to normal asap , we dont need planning we need people who will get off their butts and clear streets of debris after checking that it is electrically safe to do so .

All countries seem to have adopted all of these authorities who do stuff all and also stop individuals who have the capability to get back to normal themselves from doing anything.

As I said the electronic methods are good for some and work quite well but you need power to run them . go figure when the lights are out and the little gas powered unit has been wet .

The so called noisy diesel will start as long as the fuel is ok and a quick check of the alternator to be sure it has no water in it , then fire it up and go back to normal life .

I received some good sensible replies , but some came across as though the poster had not fully read the post nor took the time to understand what was meant .

I dont like sitting in the dark for hours at home twiddling my thumbs , when for $2-5000 , I could be ok as the units I speak of would be trailer mounted with fuel tank bases , carry sufficient fuel for nearly a weeks operation and myself I would ensure that I had sufficient for more .

This applies to HOME as well as BUSINESS and unless asked by G Bullis I will continue to post on this forum.

Michael

lakeside53
11-01-2014, 12:14 AM
Again.. you are expressing your own local situation and believe it applies to the rest of us. Sorry... but mostly it doesn't. Maybe you should just move.

mike4
11-01-2014, 12:24 AM
Again you didntget the point , I will put it another way then, if I have two diesel gensets say 50kva each with a syncronising panel I can then have 100 kva .

With my own gear and sufficient fuel I am able to continue 24/7 without interuption of any kind , see the two would allow one to be shut down for oil and filter changes with the occasional 12 monthly coolant change while the other continues to supply power .

My kind of UPS , a guaranteed 24/7 supply something the power utilities cant give.

Comprende !!!!!

Michael

lakeside53
11-01-2014, 12:37 AM
Your assumption is that we all need 99.999% up time - but that as a solution to the vast majority of this forum members needs has little to no relevance.

Your original point was "why few thought you had a valid solution to a perceived problem". Problem is... it's your problem you are solving, not ours. The $$ don't justify the benefit, except maybe to you.

justanengineer
11-01-2014, 01:28 AM
Your assumption is that we all need 99.999% up time


Just to add, depending on where we live, we might enjoy that or more. JME living on east coast and midwest USA, but power outage per year the past decade or so has usually been measured in minutes/year, not hours. Usually the only way I notice is bc of the microwave/other clocks flashing and the computers being off, never really have any interrupted work tho.

My brother's a lineman (power utility line repair for the fellas down-under) and much as I like to tease him about the union, the intelligence level of his coworkers, the often ridiculous consumer power rates, and suggest the crews are seriously overpaid.....at the end of every day theyve done a dam fine job and busted their butts to do the customer good. We had a tornado come through this time last year which tore hell throughout quite a few towns locally, LOTS of folks lost everything and we had a big spruce land on our house where the power line comes in. The emergency response was great tho, as we shouldve been we were a fairly low priority bc we'd only lost half our power (1 of 2 110V legs coming into the house was ripped down) and easily made-do otherwise (20 mins in the breaker panel actually gave us every circuit but 220V). The power crew that fixed our issue at 1 am ~1.5 days later was up from Missouri, and the insurance inspector that came out the next day flew in from Colorado. My only complaint was the linemen working on my house re-attaching the line (not actually their responsibility btw) showed up and commenced work outside our bedroom window unannounced at 1 am, scared the bejeezus out of SWMBO and they about caught lead for it.

lakeside53
11-01-2014, 01:36 AM
Yep.. I've (and many others) tossed coffee, pizza and boxes of cookies into the utility trucks. After big storms, some of the guys don't sleep for days, rules or not. Even though my place is one of the last to get fixed, it's not about me. Around here power is restored based on affected consumer numbers. Grids get fixed before spurs, then individual lines. 20 miles from me (Seattle downtown), power outages are almost unheard of.

oldtiffie
11-01-2014, 02:10 AM
First of all if the "HSMer" is a smallish - or larger - shop that he uses for himself without doing paid work in it for anyone else then there may be minimal if any cost if power is lost at all and from that no cost-benefit at all for buying a genset.

I, as I suspect are many others here are in that category and buying a genset is only a personal choice matter where convenience is the issue and cost is a personal matter as well.

I am pretty well supportive of Mike4 for the reasons given and I don't have to explain or justify those actions of mine if I don't feel like it and certainly not to some who seem to think it is their prerogative to demand that explanation of/from me as its more then likely that they won't get it unless they stop unduly pushing the issue.

mike4
11-01-2014, 04:36 AM
Well put by oldtiffie,
I am finding that a lot of what I find important , eg having power available when its needed, having PC's that work how I want not how some supplier thinks it should ,are not something that is to be discussed here .

A lot of the waffle that is posted at times on other subjects by others is trivial to me , eg scraping a machine , not something I have any desire to do, or working to aerospace tolerances on models , good if thats what you want to do , but not always necessary.

I like to work to customers requirements for their work and my rules for anything for myself , thats how it will stay , I am not someone to do something the same way as others do because that's the way everyone else does it , I will do what suits me and if that gets up the noses of some , so be it .

What is so wrong with thinking for yourself and not always running with the flock?

Michael

oldtiffie
11-01-2014, 07:45 AM
Thanks Mike.

I too am an individual and very much an individualist and very often a non-conformist as well in how I go about things.

My aim in the shop is to do just enough to satisfy the functional requirements of what I am making or what I am making it for. I am not really interested in more then that. But I do make sure I know what the functional requirements are and as is often the case there are several options that need to be addressed and ranked in order of what I can do best with what I have to do it with.

Often I will start to make a part to see how it works or if it needs to be better or not and once I've got to that stage I may have my answers and I may stop there and re-assess where I'm at and where I need to get to and how I need to get there.

If that's all I need to do then quite often I will "bin" or scrap it from there - or not.

I am rarely chasing "thous" or "tenths" or finish more then I need to and certainly not for "show" or to give myself a "pat on the back".

If I am satisfied that is sufficient in itself for me.

I sense that you are much the same in many ways.

J Tiers
11-01-2014, 11:08 AM
What is so wrong with thinking for yourself and not always running with the flock?

Michael

Not one D##n thing. Been doing it for 60 years now and not intending to stop soon.

If you run with the flock, the good grass is already eaten, and the tasty critters have already been scared away. Neither you nor your horse is happy.

I like doing a good job of whatever I do, and that's generally what I say it is. Sometimes that may be "chasing a tenth", sometimes not.

michigan doug
11-01-2014, 12:07 PM
I'm not opposed to diesel generators, I own one.

In my previous house, we were at the tail end of a residential line and 3-7 day outages were a common annual occurrence.

A gennie makes that tolerable, if not fun.


Then I move to my rural place, and power outages of greater than five minutes have dropped to very rare.

My current diesel genset has less than 50 hours on it, 48 of which are from regular monthly exercise, not outages.

While I don't regret having it, or begrudge anyone else having one, I would completely understand my neighbor thinking I'm crazy or silly for having it.


My only real disagreement with the op would be a minor one. I studied the new and used diesel genset market for a long time before I bought mine. I think you have to be pretty lucky to find a good and substantial diesel genset for 2,000 bucks.

I think I pay 8 cents per kwh, maybe 9. Making electricity from diesel has to cost triple or quadruple that, depending on how you amortize the initial cost.

Again, I don't object if you want to do it, but I see why some people think it's crazy to spend that much on electricity.


finest regards,

doug

alanganes
11-01-2014, 12:51 PM
I don't think anyone here thinks it's crazy to own one. It mostly does not make economic sense for most people, so they simply don't do it. Owning a diesel generator just because you want one is fine, but it does not make anyone a maverick, rugged individualist, set them apart from "the flock," or whatever. It just means you own a diesel generator. Not much else.

plunger
11-01-2014, 01:11 PM
I have considered a diesel generator. In S Africa our grid is always at dangerous over use levels. We have rolling blackouts every now and then. The biggest problem is theft of power lines and then you have no power for two days or you just get 50 volts and all your globes burn out
I dont have three phase at home and was wondering if a three phase 380v generator could be run off a single phase motor to supply me with 380v and then if I have a power failure I use the generator to run my machines and house(would have to have a transformer to convert it to 240v single phase.It would be cheaper to use single phase to power the generator to produce 3 phase than diesel.Is this feasible?
It would be interesting to do a comparative expense of power per k watt /h of members on this forum
What does Australia spend on power compared to Europe or S Africa or America?

danlb
11-01-2014, 01:52 PM
What is so wrong with thinking for yourself and not always running with the flock?

Michael

Nothing wrong with that, but don't expect anyone else to agree with you. If they did, you'd be back in the flock again.

Seriously, the situation in rural Australia is not really representative of all other areas. We have great power here in central California except when the temperatures exceed 110F. That's when the transformers overheat.

I think that generators are a great thing to have. We had several extended outages during a heat wave 5 years ago. I bought a 7 kw generator and a whole house transfer switch. We have not have a serious outage since. My theory is that generators prevent outages.

Dan

alanganes
11-01-2014, 02:34 PM
I have considered a diesel generator. In S Africa our grid is always at dangerous over use levels. We have rolling blackouts every now and then. The biggest problem is theft of power lines and then you have no power for two days or you just get 50 volts and all your globes burn out
I dont have three phase at home and was wondering if a three phase 380v generator could be run off a single phase motor to supply me with 380v and then if I have a power failure I use the generator to run my machines and house(would have to have a transformer to convert it to 240v single phase.It would be cheaper to use single phase to power the generator to produce 3 phase than diesel.Is this feasible?
It would be interesting to do a comparative expense of power per k watt /h of members on this forum
What does Australia spend on power compared to Europe or S Africa or America?

There are lots of ways to do what you propose, and they can all work. What constitutes the "best' approach will be highly variable from region to region, between different countries and will also depend on what you want to spend and what is available where you are.

By way of a rough comparison, using the numbers quoted by the OP, assuming a 10 KVA genset that burns 50 L/day of diesel:

Let's see...50L ~ 13.2 US gallons. Around here diesel fuel is averaging $3.67/gallon this week. so that's $48.44/day for fuel cost, ignoring the initial cost of the gear and maintenance.

My electric bill here is about $220/month (8 people in the house/shop/blah, blah, blah...) or about $7.33/day. (note that this includes initial equipment costs and maintenance)

Unlike where the OP lives where the power companies are run by evil uncaring beasts, the utility company that supplies our power here is run by loving, kind, angelic types that see to it that my power is on nearly 100% of the time. The few hours per year when it goes out, I simply take a nap, as I have to sleep some time anyhow. In the few hours that it takes to get my power back, I can get some rest so that I can then supply my customers with even better products and services than those sheep who do not rest because they are messing with their gensets. This also allows me to pass my huge power cost saving on to them, making my business more competitive and saving them money, too.

It's a win, win, win deal.

darryl
11-01-2014, 02:57 PM
And there you go. Logic and reason has been applied- individual needs have been met in appropriate fashion, and many relevant factors have been brought to light for consideration and educational purposes. Great!

So right now I'm glad my power is on, as I can see what I'm doing and can take a break and play on the computer. Life is good!

flylo
11-01-2014, 03:37 PM
I love diesel power & have 3 diesel trucks & a diesel genset but it's not 3 phase but I'm keeping a eye out for one. I have 3 phase running 10' from my shop then drops underground for 300' for the airstrip. I close to use a RPC because I didn't want a 2nd bill as 1/2 or more of our electric bill is for the add ons. The add ons cost more than the power does.
I've set up a few hunting camps with deep cycles batteries, charger, inverter, solar & generator & you can't tell your off the grid. I think that's the right combo. Use solar for lights & light loads & crank the genset when you use machinery. 2 systems had auto voltage switches that started the genset when that batteries hit a low point, fully automatic.
Also in NW Indiana the are making & selling solar panels for 80-90 cents a watt not far from me.

oldtiffie
11-01-2014, 07:03 PM
A lot of this seems to pre-suppose a long(er)-term need or want or ability to stay in the shop - as does the shop itself I suppose.

It may not be either as unforeseen stuff that might happen can soon change the equation for us in spite of us.

So all that and perhaps purchase of a gen set may be a pretty big trust in hope and if it is wrong the whole shop may be brought to a long(er)-term grinding halt.

Having to use a wheel chair or having to under-go tri-weekly dialysis (due to renal failure) could be but two of many to varying degrees.

Some of these "unfore-seens" tend to have a likely-hood of happening more frequently as we get older.

I am going on 78 and have had a few "gypsies warnings" about such matters and I've learned the hard way to address them sooner than later - or not at all - and any or some of them can impact the use of the shop and the need and cost of a gen-set at least.

So it all comes down to individual choices and circumstances - shop and gen-sets and all.

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=dialysis

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=gypsies+warning

mike4
11-01-2014, 07:34 PM
alanganes, as flylo stated there is no messing with a genset if it is set up for automatic start , what I am setting up is two gensets for maintenance and security purposes , ups's for all critical devices.

The initial purchase cost of the equipment is never factored into my costs as I look at it as a necessary purchase , better than any insurance , the only ongoing costs are fuel , filters and oils , coolant etc which is nothing compared to the alternative which costs over $100 / hour plus .

If the power utilities had a severe change of attitude I may be more friendly , by that each and every customer is equally important , not the big users first and the individuals last .

I an someone who prefers to be self sufficient in the area of power , I could possibly extend the solar system ,but under the current rules that would mean taking the shop fully off grid as "the safety of electrical supply authorities workforce is at risk", all that means is we want to dictate how your system works .

The morons cant see that it is a simple matter to install a mechanically interlocked switching system that will isolate the mains supply until I am told that mains supply is fully restored and then you simply go and manually switch back to the grid.

I have one sitting here but I am not allowed to install it because the people cant understand how it is possible to have a system which drops the mains supply and cannot be physically switched until mains is stable and has been on for at least 15 minutes.

The cost of not having the ability to work when ever I choose to is far greater than any short break in supply is to others .

I have chosen to be on call 24/7 as a lifestyle and as such like to keep the lights on so to speak , while this may not suit a lot of people I like it and as there are no suitable alternatives due to the myriad of rules and other such junk , I will continue as is until either I choose to stop or as oldtiffie said something happens to stop me healthwise.

I dont mind what everyone else want or likes to do but dont expect me to join in , and I have not assumed this is how others have to live or are living .

I still dont get how people assume that we are all alike and are happy with what is served up , some of us will stand up for what we believe in even if it means treading on toes or ruffling someones feathers.

Because I dont kiss arse.

Michael

Rosco-P
11-01-2014, 08:12 PM
Unlike where the OP lives where the power companies are run by evil uncaring beasts, the utility company that supplies our power here is run by loving, kind, angelic types that see to it that my power is on nearly 100% of the time. The few hours per year when it goes out, I simply take a nap, as I have to sleep some time anyhow. In the few hours that it takes to get my power back, I can get some rest so that I can then supply my customers with even better products and services than those sheep who do not rest because they are messing with their gensets. This also allows me to pass my huge power cost saving on to them, making my business more competitive and saving them money, too.

It's a win, win, win deal.

Really? How about that snow storm a couple years back that blacked out everything from Boston down to the New York state line for days? Forgot about that?

alanganes
11-01-2014, 08:34 PM
Really? How about that snow storm a couple years back that blacked out everything from Boston down to the New York state line for days? Forgot about that?

Holy cow, the sense of humor around here is a tad thin these days I guess.

While I was being just a tad facetious, you sort of make my point. An anomalous storm that takes out power over a huge section of several states and it is all restored in a FEW DAYS. I lost power for about 14 hours. If that is the worst thing that happens to me in a year, I'm doing pretty well.

When power gets cut to customers, the power companies cannot sell power. Selling power is what they do. They are motivated to get customers back on line.

oldtiffie
11-01-2014, 10:57 PM
As a thought, do 3-phase gen-sets commonly have a local/domestic single-phase outlet as well as 3-phase?

justanengineer
11-01-2014, 11:40 PM
I dont have three phase at home and was wondering if a three phase 380v generator could be run off a single phase motor to supply me with 380v and then if I have a power failure I use the generator to run my machines and house(would have to have a transformer to convert it to 240v single phase.It would be cheaper to use single phase to power the generator to produce 3 phase than diesel.Is this feasible?


Here stateside we call similar systems "motor generators" and they were generally used in years past for power conversion before the advent of cheap electronics. Not sure how one would go about also having an engine in such a setup, you'd want at least the engine clutched so youre not motoring it causing unnecessary wear.


As a thought, do 3-phase gen-sets commonly have a local/domestic single-phase outlet as well as 3-phase?

Yes.

mike4
11-02-2014, 12:50 AM
Most of the replies make sense , and as everyone may have gathered I have no time for quasi government boofacrats who dont have the ability to look outside their insulated world.

I dont mind paying for the diesel to run the gensets , and I would have extra capacity if I coupled the two units as I described earlier , and the whole exercise is several thousand dollars cheaper than getting an upgrade from our supply people .

I was quoted some astronomical amount when I approached them initially , also they wanted to know in detail the current drawn , operating hours and how many machines something that I cant provide as one thing I like is extra capacity in reserve.

I work on the"over capacity is better than under sized" rule it does not cost me anything to have the extra capability to run a large machine for a few hours or a few months without having to wait for someone to "decide" if they will increase you supply rating .

When you work as I do there can be a short notice large job dumped in you lap and if you are flexible and as I do rent a machine for a the duration of the project you win as well as the customer.

Yes it costs money to hire gear and get it transported thousands of kilometers , but if it means completing work before others even get set up to start then thats how I will go.

If and when I decide to pull the plug on working for customers I will be setup to potter about as I want doing whatever I want and power wont be a problem as I will only have to run the big stuff for a few hours at a time .

And one set will be able to be taken home for either outages or high use periods , still cheaper to me than the current and anticipated electricity costs will be .

Michael

oldtiffie
11-02-2014, 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie

As a thought, do 3-phase gen-sets commonly have a local/domestic single-phase outlet as well as 3-phase?



Originally posted by just an engineer

Yes.



Many thanks.

plunger
11-02-2014, 02:32 AM
I wonder why they would complicate things here in S Africa and make single phase 240v and 3 phase 380v. If it was all 240v then I would think a genset that has the ability to do single phase and three phase would be a very useful backup tool to have even if it falls in the category of tools not often used.Three phase is expensive to install here and for some reason rotary phase converters dont work here so it would be nice to create 3 phase using a dual machine by just running the generator side with a single phase motor. And when the lights go out connect the motor to the generator side ,choose 240 single phase and then I am back in business watching my favourite tv programme.

The Artful Bodger
11-02-2014, 03:27 AM
240V single phase (phase to neutral, star connected) is very close to 380v individual phases.

philbur
11-02-2014, 04:53 AM
You asked:

The recent discussion on devices to convert single phase supply to three phase pompted me to ask why there is so much resistance to people who suggest the use of three phase diesel gen sets to ,
(a) supply three phase to premises at an affordable price when it is required
(b) provide a reliable backup for the mains supply 24/7

Then you get annoyed with members who explain that these issues are not relevant for them.

If it's the correct solution for you then go with it.

Phil:)

mike4
11-02-2014, 07:25 AM
What is so wrong with putting forward a solution which may suit members who are outside the larger metro areas or in other countries with a less than perfect system as some here claim to have .

Also why should I not want to become a little more less reliant on the current electricity supply .

If my replies are not friendly then I am sorry but that is the way I am , I have to deal with dumbed down systems and people on a daily basis and after a few years it becomes the norm to be ready to stick it to some who cant see past their front door .

Michael

cameron
11-02-2014, 08:25 AM
Nothing wrong with putting forward a solution, your problem is expecting everyone to eagerly adopt your solution.

Rosco-P
11-02-2014, 09:29 AM
What is so wrong with putting forward a solution which may suit members who are outside the larger metro areas or in other countries with a less than perfect system as some here claim to have .

Also why should I not want to become a little more less reliant on the current electricity supply .

If my replies are not friendly then I am sorry but that is the way I am , I have to deal with dumbed down systems and people on a daily basis and after a few years it becomes the norm to be ready to stick it to some who cant see past their front door .

Michael

Mike, I'm in agreement with you. My 3ph generator not only provides my neighbors and myself power during outages, but makes me money as well as a part of a rental package. If some people want to adopt an Ostrich, head in the sand approach you can't help them.

Alistair Hosie
11-02-2014, 01:15 PM
In my opinion in my situation it would be impossible due to NOISE polution.My neighbours (Quite rightly) would probably object profusely ,unless I used it very sparingly.Also here in the UK diesel is not cheap.I think having three phase piped in would be less expensive.After I paid about a thousand pounds just for my rotary convertor alone,not counting all the others.a static and three or four invertors, I was quoted a bit less to have it brought into my workshop.It was too late and I am happy with what I have. Alistair

J Tiers
11-02-2014, 02:12 PM
Mike:

If you can't install a solar setup with a cut-over switch, how the dickens do you work with a genset? It's EXACTLY the SAME THING, other than how the electricity is made.

If you can set up a genset for outages, then you can set up a solar system for outages. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

If I understand your post, you cannot even set up the solar stuff on a completely separate electrical system, apparently because the "officials" consider that you "might be able to" cross-connect them and thus electrocute a lineman.

Of course you COULD, but you could also run them over with your car, or whatever... Cars don't seem to be banned yet. Clearly the "lineman protection act" must be passed to ban these dangerous cars for the protection of linemen.....

Now, if that is the case with solar, (and I suspect you are misinformed about that), then a backup generator system must be even worse.... Should be immediately banned, of course... But since you can run the genset, something here seems fishy.

Our state legislature believes wind and solar to be complete hoaxes, but even they have not repealed the "net metering" laws here. I can't suppose that Aus is even stupider than a legislator here in "The Independent Principality of Sinquefieldia" (formerly the state of Missouri in the USA)

mike4
11-02-2014, 04:53 PM
JT ,yrs they are just as stupid , because our solar system which is grid connected shuts down the minute that the grid does , because the idiots cant see that modern electronics is capable of auto switching .

I have even offered to have a mechanically interlocked changeover system installed at my cost but still no , someone may switch it back to grid and feed back into the system posing a risk .


Yet I can install the same switching system as soon as the gensets are here , no worries thats ok .

If I ask for an explanation , all I get is " thats the rules"

These people who write the rules should be made get their heads out of their fundamental orifice and move into the present century.

Michael

mike4
11-02-2014, 04:56 PM
My answer to anyone who would cry foul about noise pollution would be to have their next party shut down due to noise pollution .

These people who want to sit in the quiet peaceful night need to get a life and realise that we dont all like to sit staring at the stars.

Michael