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A.K. Boomer
11-01-2014, 10:21 PM
there's been allot of talk about ethanol and the effects on all the little two strokes we run from weed eaters to chain saws and such - well today I scored a great deal on a little 18" poulan chain saw for 25 bucks, the guy said he didn't know what was wrong with it - I pulled it to check comprendo and that was good so thought Id take a chance - long story short I got home and it took off on second pull on sour gas to boot, didn't even have to adjust the idle.

so I went to home depot to pick up some new oil for a fresh mix and some bar oil and to my surprise found this on the shelf - http://b3cfuel.com/products/ethanol-shield-2-cycle-oil

supposedly much of the new products within the last 5 years you don't have to worry about as much as they have up-graded materials that are not affected by the ethanol but my saw is just after 2000,

this stuff is supposed to help with the ethanol problemo's were all experiencing from time to time, so - for what it's worth I mixed up a batch and cut some wood up and it didn't lock up the saw, it's supposed to be high quality synthetics with some special additives...

I almost did not buy it due to the bottle not stating it was synthetic but the web site does for what it's worth - good luck out there.

Willy
11-02-2014, 12:07 AM
Good tip AK, I hadn't heard of that particular product before but it does sound as though it has merit. There's definitely a market for it. Good first choice for the guy who doesn't have access to ethanol free fuel and only puts a few gallons of fuel through one or two small 2 strokes.
Personally since all of my fleet of engines, 2 stroke/4 stroke, cars, bikes, trucks, etc. is all pre ethanol-ready, I just avoid that stuff like a bad cold. Maybe a bit more up front cost but zero fuel system issues.

oldtiffie
11-02-2014, 02:51 AM
None of my 2-stroke engines - some about a year old, others up to 10 years old - have any marking to say that that they are ethanol-compatible - so on that count ethanol gasoline is not used in them - plus I avoid ethanol gas like the plague - the cost
"benefit" differential is only that ethanol fuel is a few cents less.

I have a new Mazda3 SP25 (Sports Pack 2.5 litre) and while it is able to use ethanol-based fuel it never will while its in my hands. Standard grade lead-free gas does the job there as well - no higher octane either as the damn thing just wants to "run" - just as well I've got a "heads-up" speed display as it has saved my licence a couple of times.

macona
11-02-2014, 03:38 AM
Go to a local air strip and buy a few gallons of av gas. Will not go bad nearly as fast as typical gas.

projectnut
11-02-2014, 07:18 AM
The ethanol in the gas generally hardens the fuel lines as well as gums up the carburetors. I switched to non ethanol gas for all the lawn and garden equipment about 3 years ago. Before I switched I was changing fuel lines on 2 - 5 pieces of equipment a year. It got so bad I had to buy fuel line by the 50 foot spool. Even the newest piece of equipment I purchased last year (Echo leaf blower/vacuum) cautions not to use ethanol gas mixture. Since the switch I haven't had to change a single fuel line. Also all the equipment starts easier and runs smoother.

In our area non-ethanol gas is available in the premium grade only at Quick Trip. It's sold as "recreational" gasoline and marketed for use in ATV's and outboard motors. I'm sure I don't need the premium grade, but it's a lot less hassle and expense to pay a few cents more for fuel than to be changing fuel lines on a regular basis. I just purchased 6 gallons yesterday @ $3.69 per gallon. For reference the ethanol mix regular grade gas was selling for $3.09 per gallon

alanganes
11-02-2014, 07:45 AM
Interesting stuff, I had not seen that before. It'd be nice if it does what it says.

I'm pretty much stuck with ethanol in gas mere in MA, gas stations are not allowed to sell fuel without it. I am generally only running chainsaws these days, and not that frequently, and have not had huge issues. I did have to replace the fuel lines in my Stihl saw last year, but it IS 20+ years old. So I'm not sure I can blame that on the ethanol.

I've been making a point to add stabilizer and the stuff sold for boats (sea-foam, maybe? I forget right now...) that is supposed to deal with the ethanol as soon as I buy the fuel. Between that, rotating my fuel stores, and draining my saws when I'm not running them I have avoided any real issues so far.

If this stuff does what it says, it'd be pretty convenient. I'll have to pick some up and give it a try.

QSIMDO
11-02-2014, 07:56 AM
If you're not a professional and running through gallons+ of gas in your usage there are cans of 50-1 pre-mix non-ethanol at most all equipment suppliers and big boxes.
Don't know about other ratios as all my tools are 50-1.
I've had the same fuel in a brush cutter for a year now and it fired 2 pull the other day.
I actually wasn't thrilled because then I had to use it but you get the picture.

alanganes
11-02-2014, 08:13 AM
I have seen that premix stuff for sale here. I'm not a pro, but during parts of the year go through enough fuel that the cost of this stuff looked pretty high to me. It could be I was looking in the wrong place, too as I first saw it in a local hardware store that is noted for convenience but not great pricing. It may be less expensive elsewhere, so I maybe should revisit that.

The guy who I have repair my small engine stuff swears by that stuff.

olf20
11-02-2014, 08:18 AM
I run a outdoor power equipment service center. I know ethanol is
not the ideal fuel, but I have about 6 motors on chain saws, lawn mowers
and so on, that I use for our home. To date (10 years) I have not had a
single failure from ethanol. The exception is the gas lines tend to get soft
sooner. Ethanol is actually a cleansing product. I'm not debating one way
or the other I'm just saying that proper care for any type of gas engine
is important.
Your results may vary.
olf20 / Bob

Jon Heron
11-02-2014, 08:35 AM
I know a guy that was flying his 2 stroke ultralight with strait ethanol that he made himself, he found the best oil to mix with the ethanol was castor bean oil, I guess the standard 2 stroke oil would not mix with the ethanol, go figure...
Cheers,
Jon

A.K. Boomer
11-02-2014, 09:57 AM
Im pretty much stuck with 10% ethanol fuel, Iv kept my eyes open around town and seriously do not know of a pump that does not have it, plus I just learned that even if not stated on the pump it can still have up to 10%...

and im not going out to the airport to get "inferior" av-gas, av-gas is extreme octane for protection IN ENGINES THAT ARE DESIGNED TO RUN IT! and while most think that's a good thing it directly corresponds to the burn rate of the fuel itself,

engines factory recommended octane ratings are specifically designed for a reason, you can add a little layer of protection by going the next grade up - but my experience is to not get too carried away or you can actually decrease the HP rating and also efficiency of the engine, but it does not stop there, you can also do serious damage to your engine by running the so called "good stuff"

People who run av gas in everything simply do not know how an IC piston engine operates even in the most elementary level, their spending ALLOT more money to not only decrease their HP rating while consuming even more product all while potentially creating damage to their engine...

http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10387611/octane-101-autogas-vs-avgas

"If your engine is designed to use low-octane fuel, the use of a higher-octane gasoline will not improve performance. Engine dynamics, timing and compression ratio are what determine which gasoline octane the engine manufacturer recommends. It is possible to burn the exhaust valves if you use a high-octane gasoline in an engine that is designed to use 82-octane gasoline. Retarded ignition timing and a slower fuel burn rate can increase exhaust temperature because the fuel charge is still burning at high pressure when the exhaust valve opens. Excessive heat and pressure will quickly erode the valves and seats."

and it does not stop there, two strokes can have their own set of problems including erosion around piston top's and rings on the exhaust side not to mention much louder exhausts and performance that is drastically effected due to so much of the two strokes power making capabilities relying on near perfect timing of the fuels burn rate for optimum crank angle and proper scavenging and intake charge...

Do not use avgas in engines other than aviation... period -------- unless your running extreme high performance and mods and have crunched allot of #'s


there is actually more available BTU's in the so called "cheap gas" and in fact I use the term "cheap gas" loosely as it goes through the same level of refinement of premium pump fuels the only thing cheap about it is the fact that it costs less, it's actually the premium fuels that are missing some of the "bang for your buck" ingredients that makes a fuel a fuel
(BTU's) and it's missing due to the fuel having to contain inert additives (that take up space)to reduce its burn rate and increase it's ignition temperature rating to keep it from going off prematurely,

anyways, getting back to the OP, this is home depots site about the ethanol shield 2 stroke oil, they also had synthetic homelite at a cost of about 60 cents less so this stuff is not priced bad for the added protection that it's "supposed" to give

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ethanol-Shield-2-6-oz-2-Cycle-Oil-AC99105/204751057

they also had just the ethanol shield as an additive for use in either four strokes or im guessing two strokes with whatever oil you prefer... I just think it's handy to have both the oil and the shield in one container and no worries about mixing yet another ingredient...

And now back to burn rates and efficiencies - I have an older brother I went on a trip with in his little HF honda CRX --- he was disappointed (and so was I because I was footing half the fuel bill) that the car was only in the high 40's MPG wise and we were hard pressed to break into the low 50's in a vehicle that's rated 56 mpg's, the conditions were not exactly ideal because we were pushing it some...
it's a de-tuned slug of an engine that only puts out something like 62hp's yet he was running premium and it's rated for low greade, I kept telling him he's not only not doing his engine any good by using a lesser fuel but he's costing us more doing it by passing up optimum crank angle with too slow a burn and lesser pressures,

finally convinced him to just try one tank of low grade, he was paranoid the engine was going to go super nova...

the next run we broke into the low 50's and did not change our driving habits at all - the rest of the trip back was low 50's also...

A.K. Boomer
11-02-2014, 10:32 AM
Note on older engines; there's two things that can change in an older engine that can directly effect what type of octane you should be using and that's carbon deposits that not only raise comprendo ratio but also can create hot spots, and also oil burning which can effectively reduce a fuels octane rating, use your ear, listen for spark knock esp. down low in the RPM's with high demand.

if you hear it then bump up to the next level, on great occasion I hear a little in my honda that has 210,000 miles on it,
and im already on mid grade as my engine is fairly high compression box stock, I however see no need to go to premium yet.

lakeside53
11-02-2014, 10:44 AM
I'm Stihl tech, worked for a dealer for a few years and still do occasionally. I don't see any major issues with ethanol gas around here, and run it in all my equipment. I run synthetic mix oil only. Some older equipment, especially the "cheap brands" will have hoses and carb component that are more affected, BUT... they are affected by all gas over time. My vehicles are 1990 and 1997... not "rated" for ethanol and neither have ever had a problem running the gas, neither has my generator (BS Vanguard motor). Here it has to be over 15 year on E10 now. Climate has a lot to do with gas stability and storage.

Rather than just "rotten hoses", a larger problem with E10 in 2 stoke applications is "phase separation" where the oil will separate in the presence of water. Again.. don't store your gas for long period in the OPE, and keep the rain out. Synthetic oil mixes are less of an issue.

There is of course the the type of guy that leaves gas in his OPE for a year in a hot climate and expects it to be in good shape.. lol... doesn't matter what type of gas it is except Avgas, but that has it's own issues with lead. 100LL has 7X the lead of the old leaded automobile gas... The premixed long life gasoline mandated in Sweden, recommend on many other EU countries, and now available here is limited locations ($$) are the same formulation (lower octane) as Avgas - very stable and lasts for years.


So.. what's so special about this new product? is it REALLY better, is it solving a real problem (if it is would you run E10 in your boat?) , or is it just a cute marketing trick? No idea.

A.K. Boomer
11-02-2014, 10:53 AM
the main issue and "epidemic" that Iv seen with ethanol is the breaking down of the little hoses and prime bulbs on the little two strokes --- like you say I really have not seen any problems on the vehicles I work on, now it may also dry out the little carb diaphragms in the little two strokes but that's nowhere near the problem as the lines,

it's created such problems that you can pick up items dirt cheap cuz people don't know whats wrong and don't want to spend the money to fix them and would rather just buy a new one,

in that respect i like ethanol :-) all the small stuff I own was either given to me or I bought it for a chant...

lakeside53
11-02-2014, 10:57 AM
lol.... yep.. good money with "dead" equipment".

Yep those old primer bulbs on 90's zama carbs like to punch though. Some of that has to do with UV (sunlight) also though. Early Stihl 029/290/310 has the same problem with their fuel hoses - always broke at the same place due to sunlight getting onto the hose under the air box cover.

Willy
11-02-2014, 01:17 PM
AK, whenever I see a writer put his name to an article I always like to find out who is addressing me. The article you linked to from (http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10387611/octane-101-autogas-vs-avgas) had some serous errors and omissions in it so I looked into the credentials of it's writer, a Mr. John Szymanski, to see if his line of expertise included previous aviation technical articles or perhaps even more important, a petrochemical engineering background. Nope!

Not surprisingly he is a sales executive for Zeltex Inc., a supplier of portable fuel, food, and grain analyzers. I say not surprisingly since at the end of the article it clearly states the source of the information, or should I say mis-information, is the Zeltex Inc.

I have personally distributed millions of gallons of fuel annually for over 25 years and have collected reams is fuel and lubricant technical articles from Exxon/Mobil, Shell, and Texaco. This information all refutes the statement that burn rate of premium, or high octane gasoline is slower and that BTU content is somehow related to octane number.
I can clearly state that the burn rate, BTU content, and octane number of a fuel are all completely independent characteristic properties of a fuel.

For a more informed look at gasoline fuel properties I suggest a look at the page below from the Whitfield Oil Company. They supply Sunoco racing fuel to Nascar and VP race gas to NHRA so I would tend to think they are a more reliable source of fuel characteristics than a sales exec.

http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs/171/vp-racing-fuel-/




There is a lot of misunderstanding about the relationship between flame speed, octane number, and horsepower. There are some connections between these items, but not as many as some people think.
FLAME (burn) SPEED:
THe speed at which the air fuel mixture in a combustion chamber is consumed becomes critical in a racing engine. At 6000 RPM, each spark plug fires 50 times per second. That's a lot of combustion processes happening in a very short time in the same combustion chamber. This is why racing gasoline need to be capable of burning fast. In your daily driver that may not see the top side of 3000 RPM, flame speed is not as critical. In a racing engine, everything is happening much faster, and in a bigger way because the throttle is wide open. The gasoline must burn as completely as possible to make the most possible horsepower. If the gasoline does not get burned in the time allowed, there will be unburned hydrocarbons coming out the exhaust pipe. Besides not making any horsepower for you, the unburned product contributed to air pollution. Flame speed is determined by the hydrocarbon components in the gasoline. It is critical to making max power, but not related to octane quality.
OCTANE NUMBER:
The octane number of a gasoline has little to do with how fast it burns or how much power the engine will make. Octane number is the resistance to detonation. If the octane number is high enough to prevent detonation, there is no need to use a higher octane gasoline since the engine will not make any additional power. Octane number is not related to flame (burn) speed either. Variations in octane quality are independent of flame speed. There are some high octane gasolines in the marketplace with fast flame speeds and some with slow flame speeds. It depends on how they are put together. We prefer fast flame speeds because we know that a properly tuned engine will make more power on this type of gasoline than one that has a slower flame speed.
POWER:
The ultimate goal in the racing gasoline business is to convert chemical energy from the gasoline hydrocarbons into mechanical energy or horsepower. The most efficient way to convert the gasoline into horsepower is to have the correct air-fuel ratio and the correct spark timing. A mixture that is too rich or too lean will not make maximum horsepower. The same is true of spark timing: to much or too little will compromise engine output.
OVERVIEW:
As indicated above, flame speed and octane number both impact the amount of power that an engine will develop, but they are independent of each other. To get maximum power from an engine, one must have a gasoline with adequate flame speed (faster is always better), and adequate octane quality to support the combustion process. Tied in with the optimized air-fuel ratio and the spark timing, we have a winner.

flylo
11-02-2014, 02:01 PM
!00LL AvGas(low lead) has 5 times the lead that 80LL had before they discontinued it. Some airports sell MOGas wich is pure no lead car gas which is the best choice or call the small local airports as some gas stations still sell gas with no ethanol & they will know who as many small planes are STCed to burn car gas but strictly no ethanol. I've posted this before but to test put water in a glass jar & mark the level with a sharpie, add gas shake wait a bit & if the fuel/water line is at the mark no ethanol. If the level moved above the mark it's because ethanol drews & blends with water.

lynnl
11-02-2014, 02:20 PM
Around this neck of the woods regular gas pumps are labeled 87 octane. I recently took a western trip that included Wyoming, Idaho, Montana and then back through South Dakota. At some point I started noticing the regular pumps were labeled 85 octane.

Why the difference? Is that related to the higher elevations? ...or some other reason? I wasn't paying close enough attention to notice for sure when it changed, either going or returning, but I think it was in Wyoming where I first noticed the 85..

Willy
11-02-2014, 02:42 PM
Around this neck of the woods regular gas pumps are labeled 87 octane. I recently took a western trip that included Wyoming, Idaho, Montana and then back through South Dakota. At some point I started noticing the regular pumps were labeled 85 octane.

Why the difference? Is that related to the higher elevations? ...or some other reason? I wasn't paying close enough attention to notice for sure when it changed, either going or returning, but I think it was in Wyoming where I first noticed the 85..



I would suspect that it's regional distribution and logistics issue. Also very high on the list are profit margins. Much cheaper to sell and produce millions of gallons of 85 octane vs 87 octane. Don't expect stellar performance with bottom tier fuels. The overall cost of the fuel is usually not directly related to it's initial purchase price. As in most products the overall cost of using a product is more a function of it's quality, not it's price.
No automobile manufacture in the US supports the use of 85 octane fuel that I'm aware of. I would steer clear of it myself.

More info here:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/05/29/bad-gasoline-low-octane-too-much-ethanol/2369579/

Lynnl I should have added that yes the oil companies are betting on the higher elevations to reduce the need for 87 octane. It usually does not work out quite that way. It all boils down to profits. Their proirty focuses on their stock holders not their customers.

J Tiers
11-02-2014, 03:40 PM
That USA today article is at the very least, "misleading" in some statements. "GM approves use of E15 only in 2012 and later model years", for instance.

I have a 2000 S10. It is RATED BY GM to use E-85. So their blanket statement that NO GM vehicle prior to 2012 is approved for E15 is at least misleading, if not flat wrong. It might cause doubt among consumers whose vehicles, like mine, are RATED FOR much higher mixes.

If it can use E85, and E-10, obviously E-15 is not a problem aside from the substantial hit on gas mileage, which is NOT ever compensated by lower cost for the diluted gas. The "supposedly green" E-85 is usually only fractionally less expensive, and may be higher priced, but you can expect to get 75% of the normal mileage, if not worse.

Probably worse, since the station owners can run the water hose into it to dilute the gas even further... the alcohol will "carry" the non-burnable water, and you may end up at 7 MPG "burning water". Had something similar happen once.... vehicle usually got 28-30 mpg... but once it got about 11 or 12 mpg for one tank. No power, foot to the floor to accelerate at all, very bad performance. After a fill-up, it went right back to 28 mpg.... with plenty of power. (No, that station didn't sell diesel or kerosene, but it went out of business soon afterwards).

I have never used E85 in the vehicle, but the stickers are prominent allowing it.

A.K. Boomer
11-02-2014, 03:48 PM
For a more informed look at gasoline fuel properties I suggest a look at the page below from the Whitfield Oil Company. They supply Sunoco racing fuel to Nascar and VP race gas to NHRA so I would tend to think they are a more reliable source of fuel characteristics than a sales exec.

http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs/171/vp-racing-fuel-/


Speaking of Sunoco http://www.racegas.com/article/10

and your right Willy Octane is not the key factor - actually specific gravity is, but they even state that it does hold some merit in typical street gas as the blends burn rates are matched to octane #'s

personally I have taken MPG hits with premium fuels in cars that are perfectly happier running on "low grade"

now some of this may be due to a more optimum burn rate, and very little might be due to slightly higher BTU value,

there is real science behind higher octane having less BTU's as the additives to raise octane are inert --- "IF" this wiki link is even close it's somewhere around 3 to 4% less in the radical example of comparing avgas to street gas as the avgas has 5,000 btu's less per us gallon...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline
it's also important to note that controlling burn rates can also effect the BTU value of the fuel as once again the ingredients to do so are inert,,, for what it's worth, but you are the gas man, and im listening :-)


I will also say this much about "Mr. John Szymanski" statement on how avgas could be detrimental to a regular engine, (even though im in full agreement with you Willy that it's not due to octane rating but more so burn rate)
if the burn rate of the fuel is substantially slower than what the engine in question requires YES it could damage the engine in the ways he described, it's not that far off of a comparison from running retarded ignition timing and yes that can do excessive heat damage as well,

I think it's important to realize that avgas is basically designed for large bore long stroke low compression slow lumbering "slugs" in general and they certainly don't want the fuel going off in a flash, so yes the possibility exists that it may not be the greatest thing to run in a high RPM car engine,
again specific engines require specific gas - direct injection gas is creating a little more flexibility in many a way as you do not have to worry about octane ratings as much and also even have some control over burn rates,

if you don't want any worries and have a stock engine then just look it up in the owners manual on what to run, and keep in mind this rating is "flexible" depending on what altitude you live at - it actually takes less octane the higher up you go and the pumps at these places distribute a lesser grade, the only real way your going to get in trouble is filling up at altitude and running down to sea level,,, but again not going to pump a rod through the block with your last 1/4 tank full,

and keep in mind you will be mostly coasting down hill the whole time so lugging at high load is very unlikely :-)

atty
11-02-2014, 10:43 PM
Not sure how this thread took a turn toward auto engines. I think the OP was started about 2-stroke engines on small devices like weed trimmers, etc. Since 2-stroke engines do not have the conventional 4-cycle valves that were mentioned about burning on Avgas........I guess I'm at a loss. I have happily run Avgas in my 2-strokers for years, and I am happy to report that I'm not having to replace gas lines, primer bulbs, carb diaphragms, etc., anymore. Plus, the damn things start for a change, even after sitting for months. Granted, I would probably opt for 89, or so octane, ethanol free if it was available, but now, that is about out of the question, so the easy choice is Avgas. Just give it the manuf's fuel/oil mix, synthetic preferred here, and go to it. Your engine won't burn up.

A.K. Boomer
11-03-2014, 09:30 AM
It's an interesting topic --- there's many types of avgas but im assuming your running the conventional "blue" 100 LL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas


What's particularly interesting to me is the fact that the leaded avgas has to keep the extremely high octane rating, 100, Yet when you look at one of the most widely used (and approved) UL avgas ratings its substantially lower, from 91 to 96,

I theorize this could be due to the long term "physical" effects of the lead itself - as an auto mechanic back in the day part of the job of engine rebuilding required scraping all the carbon deposits off and out of the combustion chamber, also the back sides of valves and such - it was nasty business to say the least, was by far the worst part of the job,
Nowadays it's almost non-existent unless an engine is and has been an oil burner for many a year...

point being is this, lead does two potentially detrimental things inside an engine - 1 is that over time it can drastically raise compression ratio, and this of course requires more octane for better protection - 2 is that it can and does harbor "glow plugs" -------- red hot glowing carbon deposits - again this requires an octane rating that keeps pre-ignition and detonation at bay,,, and if you put the two together inside the same chamber you better even go for more overkill in the form of octane,

Now - that being said, and if that is indeed the case (which it does make sound sense)
I would also theorize that if you been running 100 LL avgas for the duration of an engines life then you might just want to stick with it, even though it's almost a guaranteed slow death, I think with aviation engines and the early mandatory tear down intervals it may keep this inevitable "slow death" from happening, but if youv built things up in a "normal engine" and then switched to a lesser octane grade you just might find that your engine will be in a world of hurt...

furthermore - and with the argument of it protecting valve seats being moot unless your engine is an antique - then at the very least lead needs to be looked at as a double edge sword, for it's very anti-knock properties that are designed to protect engines against damaging themselves also and over time contribute to this very same detrimental thing...

bottom line - lead sucks... and im sure glad I don't have to deal with it anymore...

George Bulliss
11-03-2014, 09:36 AM
bottom line - lead sucks... and im sure glad I don't have to deal with it anymore...

Back in my instruction days I spent a lot of time picking spark plugs clean of lead with dental picks during the 100 hour inspections of the college's 152s. The other planes didn't seem to build it up so fast. The buildup could be limited by leaning things a bit for taxing and idling, but most students didn't bother.

RandyZ
11-03-2014, 09:56 AM
Getting back to the problems with ethanol, this last summer I worked for a boat dealership. You wouldn't believe the problems we saw that was gasoline related. Owner complains that motor runs like crap. After checking the usual things like plugs and compression, we drain some fuel from the tank. Good fuel is clear with a bit of color. Bad gas comes out milky looking. I suspect that the ethanol has absorbed moisture from the air, turning into some crap that doesn't burn worth a damn. We would then connect our shop tank of fresh gas and the motors run like new.
Also to people that say that ethanol doesn't cause damage, I was having problems with my 51 ford pick up. Bad fuel pump. When I took it apart, the whole insides was just a mass of white corrosion. This caused the check valves from seating properly.

A.K. Boomer
11-03-2014, 09:58 AM
I can remember it building up so bad in the old VW beatles that it would take up all the "sqwish area" at the bottom of the combustion chamber (bottom meaning lower side of the chamber due to it laying on it's side due to it being a horizontally opposed 4 banger) - it would sound just like a rod knock and in fact was almost identical in some ways as rod bearings that gained excessive clearance would then allow the piston to come up and contact the head,

You would pull an engine and tear it down just to de-carbon it, luckily at least you did not have to go into the lower end :rolleyes:

I think the last thing i'll ever do is drive out to the airport to pay a premium to get myself some inferior fuel (at least inferior for my particular engine) Now the UL ave gas is a different story - long storage and lots of protection - nothing wrong about that, except the price and inconvenience...
even if my ethanol shield additive does not work id still rather just replace a hose once in awhile rather than have to tear my engine down and de-carbon it before it starts wanting to hand-grenade...

Willy
11-03-2014, 10:32 AM
Getting back to the problems with ethanol, this last summer I worked for a boat dealership. You wouldn't believe the problems we saw that was gasoline related. Owner complains that motor runs like crap. After checking the usual things like plugs and compression, we drain some fuel from the tank. Good fuel is clear with a bit of color. Bad gas comes out milky looking. I suspect that the ethanol has absorbed moisture from the air, turning into some crap that doesn't burn worth a damn. We would then connect our shop tank of fresh gas and the motors run like new.
Also to people that say that ethanol doesn't cause damage, I was having problems with my 51 ford pick up. Bad fuel pump. When I took it apart, the whole insides was just a mass of white corrosion. This caused the check valves from seating properly.


Another example of why I stopped buying that stuff years ago. I have eight gasoline engines that I use on a year round basis, probably another 4-6 that see intermittent service. Some of these engines have carburetors and some are EFI.

I just don't need to be baby sitting all of that stuff at what is always an inconvenient time so I just use Chevron 94 ethanol free gas and have not had a single fuel system related issue since.
Randy not sure if you are aware but in Ontario you have several choices for ethanol free gas at these fuel outlets.

Costco 91 Canadian Tire 91; Esso 91; Ultramar 91 Shell V-Power 91

Fortunately in BC we also have Chevron 94 which is always dispensed from a dedicated pump and hose/nozzle so you aren't getting a half a gallon or more of ethanol/gas when first dispensing your own fuel. Not a big difference when filling a 130 L tank in your truck but in does count when filling a small tank.

ahidley
11-03-2014, 01:27 PM
This question is aimed at airplane guys, maybe flylow? How is octave calculated? I know. In usa for auto fuel the calculation formula is printed right on the octane sticker on the pump. In Europe it's calculated differently. Thus 92 octane in Europe is not 92 octane in the usa. HOW IS AVGAS OCTANE CALCULATED? Just trying to cover every possibility. I am a detailed analyzing SOB. LOL

Toolguy
11-03-2014, 01:36 PM
How is octave calculated?

It is 8 whole notes up or down the scale from the beginning note.:)

A.K. Boomer
11-03-2014, 01:48 PM
I do know If I had "real gas" in my immediate area I would not even bother with the ethanol - but I don't know if it's because i live too close to the corn belt or what but I can't find "real fuel"

all the gas is priced very close to the same here too - which is another indicator that it's all ethanol even if a pump does not have it marked,

you know that's probably why so many people complain that their MPG rating on their cars is rarely if ever achieved is because they test them with real fuel and then people have poor results after going out into the "real world".

ethanol sucks for all kinds of reasons but I think im stuck with it... at least in a practical sense as I don't know of any alternative that's handy... but it does not seem to hurt my car or cars I fix and all I really have is a chain saw and weed eater - speaking of which on the latter I need to empty the tank and fire it up and run it dry for the year...

garagemark
11-03-2014, 02:08 PM
I must be living a charmed life. I've never fussed over octane (other than the race car when I had it), nor ethanol in anything I own. I have never had a fuel related event in any of the following that I have now: cars (73 MGB, 10 Honda Accord, 97 Plymouth Breeze), truck (04 3/4 ton Chevy 4WD), motorcycle (03 HD Deuce), lawn mower (Cub Cadet), four wheeler (Honda 250), side by side (Yamaha Rhino), Snowblower (Craftsman 30"), 2 stroke weedeaters (3), chainsaws (2), jet skis (2 Kawasaki) and a bass boat (110 Johnson).

Now just as soon as I post this, all of them will explode... Or not.

lakeside53
11-03-2014, 04:39 PM
They won't. Ethanol in gas predictions are bit like the hype over Ebola...

Willy
11-03-2014, 07:23 PM
They won't. Ethanol in gas predictions are bit like the hype over Ebola...



https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en-CA&source=hp&q=ethanol+fuel+system+issues&gbv=2&oq=ethanol+fuel+system+issues&gs_l=heirloom-hp.12...4281.18625.0.20719.27.22.0.5.1.0.266.3297. 0j18j3.21.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..6.21.3204.n1d2o1DZLfU

Yeah, great stuff.:)

While not everyone is experiencing fuel system issues with ethanol/gasoline blends, the product's reliability history has been checkered at best.
All of the major players in the auto, small engine, and marine engine manufacturing and repair industry have approved use of E10 in last few model years, so at least those users can rest a little easier.
Though there are still additional maintenance and service procedures outlined by most for seasonal storage when using E10 and of course storage of the fuel itself encompases additional guidelines not present in the past .
However they don't even want to discuss the possibility of a proposed ethanol/gas ratio of E15. Just about every small engine and marine engine OEM claims that warranties will be void as engine damage will likely result. Even auto maufacuters are concerned about E15, at least for those vehicles that are not flex-fuel capable.
Another 5% and we're over the edge. For the most part, those in the various affected industries do not want E15, period!

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of the benefits that E10 gives us, I just do not think we should have to put up with all of it's shortcomings when better alternatives like isobutanol for example are available.
Isobutanol is also a bio-fuel so that should keep the tree huggers and the corn lobby happy, although it does not have to be made from food stocks, other bio-mass sources can also be used.
The fuel has 98% of the energy as gasoline, and it is not hygroscopic, which are probably two of ethanol's biggest issues. I'm sure there are other candidates suitable as ethanol alternatives, I just pointed out this one as an example.
I guess it will come down to economic viability and pressure from consumers and industry.
Look how long it took for us to get rid of the lead in gasoling, not there is any comparrison in the amount of damage caused between the two.

The FAA, always conservative does not even want to discuss the approval of ethanol. They are however doing field trails of new fuel candidates in order to eliminate lead from the airways in the near future. I'm all for that as lead is a toxin that has caused so much damage over the years that I'm glad to see it's days are numbered, good riddance, the sooner the better.

flylo
11-03-2014, 07:41 PM
I do know If I had "real gas" in my immediate area I would not even bother with the ethanol - but I don't know if it's because i live too close to the corn belt or what but I can't find "real fuel"

all the gas is priced very close to the same here too - which is another indicator that it's all ethanol even if a pump does not have it marked,

you know that's probably why so many people complain that their MPG rating on their cars is rarely if ever achieved is because they test them with real fuel and then people have poor results after going out into the "real world".

ethanol sucks for all kinds of reasons but I think im stuck with it... at least in a practical sense as I don't know of any alternative that's handy... but it does not seem to hurt my car or cars I fix and all I really have is a chain saw and weed eater - speaking of which on the latter I need to empty the tank and fire it up and run it dry for the year...

The station that doesn't use ethanol sells for the same price as the several others in town & is always busy, price is not the way to tell.

ahidley
11-04-2014, 01:16 AM
Well nobody answered my question thus I'll post the answer:
"Automotive gasoline[edit]

An EAA Cessna 150 used for American STC certification of auto fuel
Automotive gasoline — known as mogas or autogas among aviators — that does not contain ethanol may be used in certified aircraft that have a Supplemental Type Certificate for automotive gasoline as well as in experimental aircraft and ultralight aircraft. Some oxygenates other than ethanol are approved. Most of these applicable aircraft have low-compression engines which were originally certified to run on 80/87 avgas and require only "regular" 87 anti-knock index automotive gasoline. Examples include the popular Cessna 172 Skyhawk or Piper Cherokee with the 150 hp (110 kW) variant of the Lycoming O-320.[citation needed]
Some aircraft engines were originally certified using a 91/96 avgas and have STCs available to run "premium" 91 anti-knock index (AKI) automotive gasoline. Examples include some Cherokees with the 160 hp (120 kW) Lycoming O-320 or 180 hp (130 kW) O-360, or the Cessna 152 with the O-235. The AKI rating of typical automotive fuel does not directly correspond to the 91/96 avgas used to certify engines. Sensitivity is roughly 8-10 points meaning that a 91 AKI fuel might have a MON of as low as 86. The extensive testing process required to obtain an STC for the engine/airframe combination helps ensure that for those eligible aircraft, 91 AKI fuel provides sufficient detonation margin under normal conditions.[citation needed]"

This info is found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas

5 point differance in octane numbers for Avgas vs automotive gas.

Black_Moons
11-04-2014, 04:19 PM
For those who replace fuel lines, BUY POLYURTHANE FUEL LINE. Since I started buying the stuff I have not had to replace one single fuel line. Iv got 5 year old fuel line that feels as flexible as when I installed it, the only diff is after 5 years, the 2 stroke dyes have dyed the hose a little. (Its clear, so you can see air bubbles/fuel flow problems too!). Its really not any more expensive either. maybe $1/foot for 1/4" ID. Its also strong enough to fit on hose barbs *without leaking* for years without a hose clamp, Although id definitely clamp it on a truck or anything with a long run of hose, Lots of bikes and mowers iv put it on don't use clamps and its a pain to get off, so I don't worry about it falling off, I worry more about it ripping the plastic hose barb right outta the fuel tank when trying to get it off.

No clamps also make it a lot easier to drain the tank, check for flow, remove air bubbles out of the line, etc.

Mind you, I keep all my stuff indoors or in shelter, so I don't know how it does against continuous UV exposure (Bad for most plastics)
But then you shouldn't be leaving your weedwackers/etc outside in the sun/rain anyway.

ahidley
11-04-2014, 05:54 PM
In the usa it's called TYGON FUEL LINE .. it s slightly yellowish in color. It's designed for R/C engines. They run an alcohol plus intro plays castor oil. Ebay is the best source for it.

lakeside53
11-04-2014, 10:07 PM
You can buy that at our local hardware stores also. Good stuff. I just use the genuine Stihl fuel line - comes in long lengths for the dealers. The stuff from the last 10 years never rots out.

oldtiffie
11-04-2014, 11:11 PM
Is there a distinct and known advantage of ethanol-gasoline mix over straight gasoline?

If there isn't - why use it in preference to straight gasoline?

Or why use it at all?

lakeside53
11-04-2014, 11:43 PM
No. it was political measure to (in theory) reduce reliance on imported oil.

And why use it? because the nearest pump that doesn't have it is over 30 miles way... lol

Willy
11-04-2014, 11:49 PM
There are several reasons that ethanol is in wide spread use in gasoline.

It is seen as a petroleum fuel extender, meaning that for every gallon of ethanol used, conventional petroleum based fuel resources and supplies are able to last that much longer.

It is seen as a renewable resource. I won't even begin to get into all of the politics that this subject brings to mind.:)

It also is a very clean burning fuel and thus is used as a tool against the war on air pollution.

It is also a very cheap way to increase the octane rating of gasoline.

There's a whole lot more going on here that just the above, but that's a capsule view from my chair.