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plunger
11-03-2014, 05:34 PM
With the talk of generators on another thread It was mentioned that the States is fairly stable in its power supply. S Africa runs on max when it comes to power supply and the government keeps asking you on tv adverts to use power sparingly. Well its gonna get worse as one thing we excel in is incompetency. Yesterday a coal carrying 10000 metric ton silo collapsed at one of the power plants so we are in for rolling blackouts which started yesterday. I would like to get a generator but with a difference. In the spirit of homeshop style thinking I would like to use my
bakkie(VAN,UTE) to actually run the generator. Being electrickery challenged I would not know what size is needed for an average size house.At harbor freight (which we do not have )is a tractor pto driven generator of 16000watts.It operates at 580 rpm.I would like to be able to rig up something that I can drive my vehicle up to the generator and use my tyre to run the generator.Maybe a wheel on a wheel. The idea is that I would think it would be much cheaper to run as you are idling along with a 2.2l diesel at 700rpm and the cost of buying the generator would be less.I dont know if it is possible to maybe use the same concept of a rotary phase converter to do the same thing.WE dont have harbor freights in S Africa. It could be alot of fun making something like this as well.

CarlByrns
11-03-2014, 05:55 PM
In a nutshell, it's a bad idea. Engines- especially diesels- do not perform well at or near idle- they will have lubrication and carbon build-up problems leading to a very short engine life.

The tractor-driven generator is a good idea, but you have to drive it with a tractor! The PTO speed (usually 540 rpm) is developed when the engine is running right in the butter zone for power, somewhere between 1500 to 2200 rpm. The tractor has a governor that will hold the engine speed nice and steady, which is critical for AC power.

velocette
11-03-2014, 06:09 PM
In a nutshell, it's a bad idea. Engines- especially diesels- do not perform well at or near idle- they will have lubrication and carbon build-up problems leading to a very short engine life.

The tractor-driven generator is a good idea, but you have to drive it with a tractor! The PTO speed (usually 540 rpm) is developed when the engine is running right in the butter zone for power, somewhere between 1500 to 2200 rpm. The tractor has a governor that will hold the engine speed nice and steady, which is critical for AC power.

In my limited experience with tractor driven generators they step up the generator speed with a vee belt drive or a gearbox.

If your vehicle has limited slip differential them you are in BIG trouble.
Also the two units needs to be securely anchored down.
Calculate the Kilowatts needed in an emergency situation and match that to a suitable generator.
What about solar power? South Africa has loads of sunshine.
Be very aware that a mobile generator can be as lethal as the mains supply.


Eric

PStechPaul
11-03-2014, 06:25 PM
For most households, about 2000 watts is enough for lighting, electronic devices (computers, TV, etc,), and small appliances. Refrigerators, microwaves, coffee pots, washing machines, gas dryers, and toasters can run on 2000 watts but not all at the same time. Room air conditioners and small heaters are also less than 2000 watts. A 4000 or 5000 watt generator will be enough for anything except whole house electric heat or A/C, and might even be enough for electric hot water heaters and electric ranges. Most machine tools are less than 2 HP and only consume that much when fully loaded. Harbor Freight has a $300 10,000 watt generator head that can be connected with a belt drive to a gas or diesel (or steam) powered motor, such as a car or tractor.

You may also consider running a separate 12 VDC system through the house and using it with 12V appliances such as those made for campers. You can also get inverters good for 1000 watts or more which can be used for things that don't come in 12V versions.

You can get some idea of what can be done from this guy who is living off-grid quite comfortably:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpDt57935s0

loose nut
11-03-2014, 06:55 PM
WE dont have harbor freights in S Africa.

Lucky bastards.

lakeside53
11-03-2014, 07:24 PM
Lucky bastards.

Yep...

Around here houses have 5kva generators for light use, 9-10kva for larger home with more then one large refrigerator, a 1.5 to 2hp septic pump etc (motor starts) and 18-25Kva for "whole house".

If you are going that way don't go "small" - much better to run them at partial load than flat out, and smaller (or larger but cheaper) generators are lousy for motor starting. They also have really poor waveform, much closer to a "stepped square wave" than sine. And... as a rough guide, a 10-12kva generator will need about 18-20hp at full load.

The important thing is to maintain the speed accurately independent of load (i.e. you need a governor). While your diesel may idle when the generator is at zero load, it will need to provide more power as the generator load increases and there's not much "constant" about household use.

jdunmyer
11-03-2014, 07:37 PM
Plunger,
Here's a pic of my home-brew genset, using a VW Diesel engine from a 1984 Rabbit:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/jdunmyer/genset/sep13_07.jpg

The entire story is here: http://www.oldengine.org/members/jdunmyer/genset/

This outfit works great, but I (thankfully) don't get much chance to use it, especially for any extensive time. We've had one 21-hour outage since its installation, and only a few outages of a couple hours or so. That's in about 15 years.

Some years ago, a fella near here ran a drainage pump with a VW Diesel Rabbit; he would remove the right front wheel, bolt on his adaptor, connect the shaft to the pump, and let 'er run, blocking the speed control arm on the injection pump to get the appropriate RPM. Of course, the Rabbit didn't have a limited-slip differential, and the pump presented a constant load, so no governor was required. I was told that it would run for over 20 hours on the 10 1/2-gallon fuel tank. (My genset used about 3/4 gallon per hour, loaded to about 7000 watts during our tests.)

Generally speaking, a cruise control will not substitute for a real governor, it reacts too slowly. The best setup is to drive your generator with an engine that already has a governor.

Rosco-P
11-03-2014, 08:14 PM
Your yellow-orange fuel tank is from what? Was originally using a 20 gallon boat fuel tank for my generator, pain in the arse to fill.

garyhlucas
11-03-2014, 08:20 PM
I'm a former electrical contractor and a sailor (sailboats) A few years ago one of the sailing magazines presented a article on offshore power for long term cruising. they considered solar, wind, diesel generators, charging the batteries off the main engine, and using an inverter, and finally a Honda portable inverter generator. When all the various power sources were converted to $ per kw hour of generated power for all the expenses including generator cost and lifespan the cheapest thing next to plugging your boat into the utility power at the dock was the Honda!

I did some research and found a guy who built a house a long distance from utility power. They wanted like $60K to bring him power! So he decided to use portable generators and a battery bank for the night time. He found that no matter how well he cared for them he couldn't get over about 1000 hrs of life. After his fifth generator he decide to try the Honda inverter generator. What he found was that it was WAY quieter, used way less fuel, and was still going strong after 5000 hrs! Despite the fact it cost 3 times what the other cost it turned out to be way cheaper and better in every respect.

Inverter generators change the whole energy in vs energy out equation. It requires a motor that can be throttled down without ill effects, and that pretty much rules out diesels at the moment. Currently it appears they top out at about 5kw, however I expect bigger ones will start showing up soon.

My experience. After a hurricane a buddy found a Champion 2000 watt inverter generator at Tractor Supply and bought one for each of us for $300. I stuck mine in the shed without ever starting it and listened to my wife bitch about he money I wasted on it for 3 years. Then along came hurricane Sandy. We were without power for 5 days. I had mostly converted my house over to LEDs and I finsished the job then. Each morning I went out and filled the tank and started the generator. We had lights, the refrigerator, the freezer, the satellite dish, the FIOS, the big screen TV and the heater. Around 8 hours of run time it would stop, my wife refilled it and it ran again until 11pm, we were in bed and it ran out of gas. Total fuel use for five days 10 gallons! Life was good.

The bad news was my inlaws with an 8 KW generator that I had to supply gas for because they don't drive any more. 10 gallons a day at almost $4.00 a gallon and their power was out for 7 days!

jdunmyer
11-03-2014, 08:49 PM
Rosco-P,
I've changed the tank since that picture, it's now a 12-gallon job that I picked up at the Portland engine show swap barn. That's another whole story, the tank looked to be brand-new, but it leaked. Hadda resolder the seam on the one end, then used RedKote on the inside. It's mounted high enough that it feeds the pump by gravity, which does make it a bit of a PITA to fill. There's no real reason it couldn't be lower, but I'd have to do some manipulation to prime the pump after changing the filter. Not real difficult, I use a siphon blow gun on the filter outlet to such the fuel from the tank.

The tank was for a boat, I think. I added fittings to the top for the return line, etc. My method is to soft-solder the fitting to the tank, and THEN drill through the fitting into the tank. If I'm being extra-careful, I'll purge the tank with the argon/CO2 mix from my MIG welding tank all the time I'm soldering.

darryl
11-03-2014, 08:49 PM
After reading this and thinking it over, it does seem that an inverter/generator would be a pretty efficient way to produce 'conditioned' power. The motor wouldn't have to run at some fixed speed in order to maintain 50 or 60 hz, and with lighter loads it could probably run at not much more than idle. With a modest battery bank you could probably get away with a smaller capacity unit, and still have motor starting power for fridges, etc. With a battery bank you could start adding solar panels. You would probably start with a single panel to reduce the cash outlay, and that panel would serve to maintain the battery bank- though you could also maintain it with mains power.

I will have to learn more about inverter/generators. The performance that Gary has told about doesn't surprise me- it makes sense to me that it would be more efficient.

flylo
11-03-2014, 08:49 PM
I bought a reefer trailer diesel 4 cyl 40+ HP that the trailer was in a wreck in the rear with no damage to the engine with very little time. Also a new 15K gen head made in Italy & plan to mate the two. I have an Onan diesel genset from a fire truck but wanted more power.

J Tiers
11-03-2014, 09:13 PM
I'm a former electrical contractor and a sailor (sailboats) A few years ago one of the sailing magazines presented a article on offshore power for long term cruising. they considered solar, wind, diesel generators, charging the batteries off the main engine, and using an inverter, and finally a Honda portable inverter generator. When all the various power sources were converted to $ per kw hour of generated power for all the expenses including generator cost and lifespan the cheapest thing next to plugging your boat into the utility power at the dock was the Honda!


A genset has advantages, and good uses. It can be the right choice, depending on the situation.

But I've seen similar reports, and in many, many cases, the results appeared to be based on unrealistic assumptions. The most usual was to assume a very limited lifetime for solar or wind equipment. 2 years for batteries, 5 years for solar panels, that sort of thing.

And usually very limited daily usage, and short overall usage time, assuming the system might need to last only a limited number of years, usually just enough to make the engine generator reach end-of-life. In some cases, it appeared the analysis was essentially rigged to produce the desired result.

But, a few were realistic, and with those, the usual result was to show that the systems equaled each other in a few years, with the solar pulling ahead as total fuel costs added up year after year.

It is also notable that the generator must be "on" in order to be ready, meaning running and sucking fuel on the off-chance that power may be needed. An inverter on idle draws virtually nothing. In the old days, the genset was set up to start when it sensed a load. I have not seen one like that in modern times.

And the genset is usually noisy, which is not "sailboat like", plus exhaust stinks. The need to be running, and th noise/smell are generally not factored in.

Glug
11-03-2014, 09:26 PM
And the genset is usually noisy, which is not "sailboat like", plus exhaust stinks. The need to be running, and th noise/smell are generally not factored in.

Generators are often much more quiet and smooth running than sailboat engines. I'm talking about you, 3 cylinder Isuzu diesel.

J Tiers
11-03-2014, 09:40 PM
sailboat engines.

Now, why does this seem just WRONG?

CarlByrns
11-03-2014, 10:02 PM
In my limited experience with tractor driven generators they step up the generator speed with a vee belt drive or a gearbox.


That's right- the generator (in the USA) has to turn 3600 or 1800 rpm (depending on the internal configuration) but most tractor PTOs are 540 rpm. So, yeah- the tractor engine turns 1500-2000 rpm, the PTO turns 540 rpm and the generator turns 1800 or 3600 rpm.

plunger
11-04-2014, 02:18 AM
Damn thats a nice generator build. Could one not bypass the pto if revs are similer.. I think the governer will throw a spanner in the works.I doubt they are available in my town

flylo
11-04-2014, 07:16 AM
I bet theyre available, they come up here all time as people buy them & most don't use them much if ever so there are some deals as the big farms are buying the small ones as the owners retire.

ironmonger
11-04-2014, 08:13 AM
Regardless of what type of power unit you select, I would think that the same advice that solar power gurus give to people considering conservation would apply. Before you measure your loads for lighting, it is recommended that you replace your lighting with compact fluorescents or Led lamps. Solar conversions will also benefit from higher efficiency appliances. Don't know why that would be a bad idea for genset applications...

My wife has started on a campaign to replace all the 'yellow' lamps with daylight LED's. We are changing over at the rate of one or two lamps per month.

paul

plunger
11-04-2014, 08:14 AM
Flylo, I firstly dont have a whole hanger full of" stolen You Suck" goodies.I also dont have your ability to find them and then negotiate on them ,but the biggest drawback I have is that I live on a different continent than you.;)

jdunmyer
11-04-2014, 09:22 AM
Plunger,
I bought that governor from Saturn Surplus, but I've had others from various sources. Some older equipment was equipped with belt-driven governors: forklifts, air compressors, pumps, different farm equipment, etc. Shop the scrapyards or used parts places and you'll find one.

You COULD bypass the PTO "if the revs are similar", but they aren't. Tractor PTOs run at a nominal 540 RPM, and only very large generators spin at speeds that low. Today, most are either 3600 or 1800 RPM for 60 cycle, 3000 or 1500 RPM for 50. The good parts about a tractor-driven generator are: You already have the power unit, it runs often, so is always ready to go, it is an industrial unit, meant to operate for hours on end, and it has a governor.

In my own case, the gen head is rated at 3600 RPM and I actually step the speed from the engine UP from about 2400 RPM. The reason for that is the VW Diesel engine that I'm using has its best torque output at about that speed, or 45 MPH in high gear. With this setup, when the governor senses a load and calls for more torque, the engine can provide it. Of course, I could have driven the generator directly, but 3600 RPM is equivalent to about 70 MPH and the engine is screaming. Plus, I don't NEED the power that it develops at that speed, 20 HP is plenty. That engine was originally rated at 50-some HP.

If you are going to buy a genset outright, the Honda inverter-style is the way to go. Long-lived and very economical on fuel.

None of these is meant to be your base power provider, of course. If you are off-grid, then you need an entirely different setup that includes things like solar panels, wind turbines, batteries, inverters, etc. Base power and standby operation are 2 entirely different applications, and it is almost never cost-effective to "roll your own" if the grid is available, even if it's not the most reliable.

Some years ago, I was chatting with a fella who makes Bio-Diesel fuel, and he had a surplus. Seeing my genset, he thought it'd be a great idea to get a similar setup and have "free" power. I pointed out to him that he was overlooking a few things: initial purchase, oil changes & other maintenance, and depreciation, as it won't last forever. He seemed to loose interest.

flylo
11-04-2014, 10:01 AM
Flylo, I firstly dont have a whole hanger full of" stolen You Suck" goodies.I also dont have your ability to find them and then negotiate on them ,but the biggest drawback I have is that I live on a different continent than you.;)

Sorry, I just thought S Africa had to have refigerated trucks or trailers that might be a good source for a diesel power unit as these are made to run 40,000 hrs I'm told. Just trying to help.

A.K. Boomer
11-04-2014, 10:06 AM
this thread makes me wonder about something, If a guy lives within city limits and has city sewer, could you have some kind of methane concentrator - enough to run a hitNmiss engine to then run a generator? just a crazy thought but could work no?

kendall
11-04-2014, 10:29 AM
Big problem in the city would be space and storage. Many cities have a problem with keeping waste around.

A.K. Boomer
11-04-2014, 11:42 AM
Yeah but not talking any changes like that, just drawing in "sewer gas" from an existing poop line, and then milking the methane off of it and pumping the "filtered air" minus the methane back into the sewer system.

Paul Alciatore
11-04-2014, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Glug

sailboat engines.


Now, why does this seem just WRONG?

If you are sitting 10 miles from the shore and the wind dies it won't seem so wrong.
Plus, they make docking a lot easier.

Duffy
11-04-2014, 01:50 PM
I thought that the correct term for a sailboat engine was an "iron jib!":o

plunger
11-04-2014, 02:10 PM
Flylo I thought you were referring to me buying a governer from surplas.Are the refrigerators on trucks run from a small diesel engine? I wonder what size and type they are?I need all the help I can get.
Ak Boomer I can just see next weeks breaking news. Mad Plumber blows up entire city sewer infrastructure with science experiment gone wrong.:D
I wonder if one could capture enough methane. I think it would be too well vented in most cases.
At our local dump they have a turbine run off methane and it feeds back into the city grid. It has a chimney with a flame burning that you cant see, you can just see the shimmer of heat coming off it

aboard_epsilon
11-04-2014, 02:15 PM
May seam a daft answer ,
but you do have power off the grid most of the time

so why not charge a bank of batteries and have an inverter to convert to mains power when on them.

all the best.markj

dneufell
11-04-2014, 02:28 PM
loose nut........very,very funny :) Dean

Black_Moons
11-04-2014, 03:38 PM
Really bad idea in general. a 100HP car motor outputing 3HP (2000~ watts, average house usage) will be using *several times* more gasoline then a 7~12HP engine you'd find in a typical 5000~8000W generator. Hell it likely uses about as much to idle as a 7HP motor uses to run at half throttle.

Car engines really don't last that many hours for continuous use either, and they cost a LOT to repair. You'll also be losing another 20~35% power via your cars transmission/differential.

Only do it if you can find a stupidly small car engine, for free, and your willing to rip the engine outta the car and get a governor installed.

kendall
11-04-2014, 04:31 PM
Yeah but not talking any changes like that, just drawing in "sewer gas" from an existing poop line, and then milking the methane off of it and pumping the "filtered air" minus the methane back into the sewer system.

I'm not sure it would be producing enough usable gas anywhere the average homeowner could reach the lines. Most articles I've read state that there are several days (weeks?) before they start producing gas.

PStechPaul
11-04-2014, 04:39 PM
One advantage of an electric car is that it has typical 10-30 kWh of storage which corresponds to a range of 40-120 miles based on a typical usage of 250 Wh/mile. You can charge it at home on solar or wind, or the grid, and when the grid is "down" you may be able to find an unaffected charging station near enough to "fill up" and return home with, say 20 kWh for your home usage. It should be possible to conserve energy by frugal use of LED lamps and efficient refrigerators so that your average usage is about 500-1000 watts and you will have one or two days worth of power.

You can get deep cycle lead-acid batteries for about $70 for 1200 W-h so for about $2000 you could have 36 kW-h of home storage. If not used continuously, they can last 5-10 years, or about $300/year, and they can be recycled to get maybe $10-$20 back. You could run a generator powered from your car (or other gas/diesel engine) at full power and maximum efficiency to charge the home or vehicle battery bank quickly and safely.

You can also get a complete 5 kVA steam-powered electrification plant for $6600 and 10 kVA for less than $10,000. You can burn dead trees, trash, or biomass, or possibly methane from sewage and composting. And in cold weather you can channel the excess heat into the home for heating,
http://www.tinytechindia.com/steampowerplan.htm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxW3a3eZFis

CarlByrns
11-04-2014, 06:22 PM
Here's a pic of my home-brew genset, using a VW Diesel engine from a 1984 Rabbit

Why did you add a belt-drive external governor when the engine already has an internal one?

garyhlucas
11-04-2014, 06:51 PM
this thread makes me wonder about something, If a guy lives within city limits and has city sewer, could you have some kind of methane concentrator - enough to run a hitNmiss engine to then run a generator? just a crazy thought but could work no?

About 30 years ago I visited the Owls Head Sewage Plant in lower Manhattan to look at some big diesel generators that were mostly powered by methane from the digesters. They captured the heat from the cooling water and the exhaust and used it to heat the digesters which speeded up the anaerobic digestion process and produced more gas. In order to use it in the generators though they had to also strip the hydrogen sulfide which is corrosive as hell. So it is not so simple.

Funny thing, in my third career on the 20/20/20 plan I actually design and build waste water treatment plants now!

ironmonger
11-04-2014, 07:34 PM
About 30 years ago I visited the Owls Head Sewage Plant in lower Manhattan to look at some big diesel generators that were mostly powered by methane from the digesters. They captured the heat from the cooling water and the exhaust and used it to heat the digesters which speeded up the anaerobic digestion process and produced more gas. In order to use it in the generators though they had to also strip the hydrogen sulfide which is corrosive as hell. So it is not so simple.

Funny thing, in my third career on the 20/20/20 plan I actually design and build waste water treatment plants now!

The part I don't understand with the methane digestion systems in poo plants is the lack of biomass feeders. I used to work for the JF AHERN Co. We did a lot of sewage plants, and none of them added biomass.

From what I read about methane digesterís, the balanced mix of human waste and grass/garbage/green stuff enhances the methane production. Plus you get a high quality fertilizer far superior to the product we have in Milwaukee called Milorganite, which is not bad, but it could be better.

The brain dead politicians in Milwaukee decided to build a pipeline to bring methane from a landfill some 20 miles to the methane burners/methane burning electrical power generators at the sewage plant... to get more electricity to run the plant. They could have diverted most of the plant generated methane to the digester heaters and brought in main power from the grid. Guess it would have been too simple to dump the power back into the mains at the point where the methane is generated, the land fill. Some body got their pockets lined on that deal...

paul

Doc Nickel
11-04-2014, 07:58 PM
In a nutshell, it's a bad idea. Engines- especially diesels- do not perform well at or near idle- they will have lubrication and carbon build-up problems leading to a very short engine life.

-Strongly disagree. Up on the North Slope of Alaska, it is typical to start a diesel truck in September, and leave it running through 'til April. There are months at a stretch where if you shut the vehicle off for more than five or ten minutes, you'll never get it started again until you tow it into a shop to warm up. It's not uncommon to see those vehicles sold at auction, with less than 60,000 miles on them, but 50,000 to 80,000 hours on the meter.

Doc.

Willy
11-04-2014, 08:36 PM
Why did you add a belt-drive external governor when the engine already has an internal one?

I would assume he added it as a more accurate and responsive engine speed control. When used in conjunction with a very speed sensitive load like a generator a very responsive speed control device is needed in order to maintain frequency control within several Hz. An engine governor simply does not have the capability to instantly respond to a sudden increase in load in order to maintain engine rpm within a narrow speed range.

The the engine's governor in it's original use and configuration is not intended to increase fuel delivery when ascending a steep hill while maintaining a steady throttle position.

epanzella
11-04-2014, 08:40 PM
Speaking of boats, I gravity feed my generator from my 75 gallon boat tank. I never needed it for more than a week but it would probably run a month.

CarlByrns
11-05-2014, 12:20 PM
I would assume he added it as a more accurate and responsive engine speed control. When used in conjunction with a very speed sensitive load like a generator a very responsive speed control device is needed in order to maintain frequency control within several Hz. An engine governor simply does not have the capability to instantly respond to a sudden increase in load in order to maintain engine rpm within a narrow speed range.

The the engine's governor in it's original use and configuration is not intended to increase fuel delivery when ascending a steep hill while maintaining a steady throttle position.

I would buy that if the belt-driven governor was better than the Bosch unit on the VW engine, but it looks just like one used on gasoline-powered turf equipment , which is good-but-not-great at holding speed.

Also, he still has to be using the original engine governor- the belt-driven governor is connected right to it so in the end, the Bosch is still doing all of the fuel control, the belt-driven one is just an elaborate and unnecessary speed-setting screw.

"The engine's governor in its original use and configuration is not intended to increase fuel delivery when ascending a steep hill while maintaining a steady throttle position" is wrong- that is exactly what the governor does- match fuel delivery to load.

CarlByrns
11-05-2014, 12:24 PM
-Strongly disagree. Up on the North Slope of Alaska, it is typical to start a diesel truck in September, and leave it running through 'til April. There are months at a stretch where if you shut the vehicle off for more than five or ten minutes, you'll never get it started again until you tow it into a shop to warm up. It's not uncommon to see those vehicles sold at auction, with less than 60,000 miles on them, but 50,000 to 80,000 hours on the meter.

Doc.

That doesn't add up: 80,000 = 3330 days= 9 years of continuous, never shut off running.

Willy
11-05-2014, 12:51 PM
"The engine's governor in its original use and configuration is not intended to increase fuel delivery when ascending a steep hill while maintaining a steady throttle position" is wrong- that is exactly what the governor does- match fuel delivery to load.

You have to realize that in diesel engines many different types of governors are in use for differing applications.
Automotive governors are of the limiting speed type. Which is why throttle position must be changed manually when ascending a hill on this type of governor. (try going up a hill in a diesel powered truck without manual input at a pre-fixed throttle position)

It will also try to maintain idle rpm under a slight load, it will also cut back fuel so as not to over-speed at the high idle or max speed setting, and it will maintain a preset rpm setting under no load. But it is not designed to maintain a constant speed setting under variable loads.

This is the function of a constant speed governor. Really good diesel generators use what is called an isochronous permanent speed droop governor. This type of governor has an adjustable speed droop function that allows adjustments from 0% speed droop to about 5 % speed droop to prevent governor "hunting".

Doc Nickel
11-05-2014, 03:21 PM
That doesn't add up: 80,000 = 3330 days= 9 years of continuous, never shut off running.

-That's correct. Just because it's "summertime" up there doesn't mean they go back to starting and shutting off the truck like a normal person would. Typically a truck gets shut off twice a year- each time it's brought in for an oil change. Might be more likely to be shut off on occasion in the 'summer', but it's not unusual for some of their vehicles to have been running almost nonstop for literally years.

And due to the limited range in which they can be driven, it's tough to put a huge number of miles on 'em. So as long as the engine's still in good shape, they keep the rest of the truck around for years. Hell, it's usually the driver's door hinges and latch that wear out first. :D

Doc.

kendall
11-05-2014, 04:36 PM
- Hell, it's usually the driver's door hinges and latch that wear out first. :D

Doc.

And the fuel cap :)

CarlByrns
11-05-2014, 04:59 PM
-That's correct. Just because it's "summertime" up there doesn't mean they go back to starting and shutting off the truck like a normal person would. Typically a truck gets shut off twice a year- each time it's brought in for an oil change. Might be more likely to be shut off on occasion in the 'summer', but it's not unusual for some of their vehicles to have been running almost nonstop for literally years.

And due to the limited range in which they can be driven, it's tough to put a huge number of miles on 'em. So as long as the engine's still in good shape, they keep the rest of the truck around for years. Hell, it's usually the driver's door hinges and latch that wear out first. :D

Doc.

Sorry, Doc, I'm not buying it. Our commercial diesels are good for 6000-7000 hours and they are much more rugged than any light or medium duty truck engine.

8000 hours I'd believe. 80,000, no way. Show me a Hobbs with those numbers.

A.K. Boomer
11-05-2014, 05:28 PM
Carlb u know what the doc said about your blood pressure...

I too been watching this - and would have to say unless an extreme very unusual case somewhere in the middle lies the truth,

and Doc - how you going to wear out door hinges when a truck is just idling it's whole life? just curious...

CarlByrns
11-05-2014, 05:29 PM
You have to realize that in diesel engines many different types of governors are in use for differing applications.
Automotive governors are of the limiting speed type. Which is why throttle position must be changed manually when ascending a hill on this type of governor. (try going up a hill in a diesel powered truck without manual input at a pre-fixed throttle position)

It will also try to maintain idle rpm under a slight load, it will also cut back fuel so as not to over-speed at the high idle or max speed setting, and it will maintain a preset rpm setting under no load. But it is not designed to maintain a constant speed setting under variable loads.

This is the function of a constant speed governor. Really good diesel generators use what is called an isochronous permanent speed droop governor. This type of governor has an adjustable speed droop function that allows adjustments from 0% speed droop to about 5 % speed droop to prevent governor "hunting".

While some rental trucks have speed limiters(usually electronic), they're not the primary fuel control- the injection pump governor matches fuel to load, pure and simple.

Load does not equal speed! In the heavy truck on a hill example, the driver calls for more engine power because the truck is slowing down against gravity and gearing. The driver could (and will probably have to) drop a gear to keep the engine in its power band. Next time you pass a truck grinding up a steep hill, note that the engine will be at the maximum revolutions the fuel control (mechanical or electronic) allows. The fuel flow for an unloaded engine at 1800 rpm will be a lot less than the same engine at 1800 rpm pulling a loaded trailer up a steep hill. Same speed, different load.

Doc Nickel
11-05-2014, 05:51 PM
Sorry, Doc, I'm not buying it. Our commercial diesels are good for 6000-7000 hours and they are much more rugged than any light or medium duty truck engine.

8000 hours I'd believe. 80,000, no way. Show me a Hobbs with those numbers.

-Sorry, it's been years since I was on the Slope. But I can say that in my time there, if the vehicle was outside (-50F was not uncommon, with wind chills well below that) it simply wasn't shut off for most of the year. Keep in mind that, of course, the vast majority of that time was spent just idling.

Doc.

Jon Heron
11-05-2014, 05:58 PM
This is common practice in Northern Ontario, where I painfully served my apprenticeship. If the heavy equipment was shut down over night or ran out of fuel over the weekend etc, it would take propane tiger torches under the block and a tarp tent over the machine to thaw the things out and get them started again.
When is this fricken global warming coming anyways?? This post just brought back bad memories and a chill down my spine.. :p
Cheers,
Jon

Doc Nickel
11-05-2014, 06:01 PM
and Doc - how you going to wear out door hinges when a truck is just idling it's whole life? just curious...

-Work truck on small, isolated areas. Driller would leave break shack, get in truck, drive to control room. Might be 200 yards. Get out. Grab daily report, get back in truck. Drive to workshop, might be another 200 yards. Get out, talk to foreman for ten minutes. Get back in truck, drive back to break shack, grab cup of coffee. It's 60 degrees F below freezing with a 30-knot wind- but then again, most of those guys still drove the truck even in the summertime. Don't get a gut like that exercising. :D

10 or 20 people might use the truck over the course of a given day, and except for the occasional foray over to another pad, the furthest you could drive it, even if you wanted to, might be 300 yards. 50 or 60 short trips a day adds up to a lotta door-slammin'. :D

Doc.

A.K. Boomer
11-05-2014, 06:21 PM
-Sorry, it's been years since I was on the Slope. But I can say that in my time there, if the vehicle was outside (-50F was not uncommon, with wind chills well below that) it simply wasn't shut off for most of the year. Keep in mind that, of course, the vast majority of that time was spent just idling.

Doc.

hasn't anyone ever heard of block heaters? you know you can buy them on e-bay and some sellers even have free shipping,

even if your in no mans land without power and have to use a small genset to power the block heater would that not be allot cheaper to do than wearing out and fueling a big rig??? again Doc just curious...

CarlByrns
11-05-2014, 07:13 PM
-Sorry, it's been years since I was on the Slope. But I can say that in my time there, if the vehicle was outside (-50F was not uncommon, with wind chills well below that) it simply wasn't shut off for most of the year. Keep in mind that, of course, the vast majority of that time was spent just idling.

Doc.

Good thing wind chill doesn't affect machinery- we get -20F in January/February with high winds. The trucks still start, but the walk out to them will kill you.

BTW- we plug in everything from Ford to Freightliner anytime the temp drops below 32F.

Doc Nickel
11-05-2014, 07:17 PM
hasn't anyone ever heard of block heaters?

-The problem is it's not just the block. Diesel itself starts to gel- even "winter" blends start forming solids at -20 or -30F. And -50F with wind chills down to -100F are not uncommon. To start a cold truck, you need to warm the block, the battery (or batteries) the fuel (in the tank, in the filters, in the injectors) the oil pan and so on. One or even two block heaters can't do that at a hundred degrees below freezing. Even properly-mixed glycol antifreezes start "slushing" at -40F or so.

Then there's the problem that, even if block heaters worked, there's the issue of the operator plugging it in every single time he stopped. Which of course means also remembering to UNplug it each time he take it anywhere, or even just the issue of if it didn't get plugged in, then having to plug it in and wait several hours for everything to warm up again.

Basically, easiest thing to do is to keep 'em running. If one quits, easiest fix is to just tow it into one of the workshops and let 'er thaw. If it's too big or difficult to tow, as mentioned above, that's when you get out the tarps, salamanders and weed burners, and throw men, money and time at it 'til it starts.

The North Slope is well above the Arctic Circle. It's a whole 'nother ball game up there. :D

Doc.

jdunmyer
11-05-2014, 07:21 PM
Why did you add a belt-drive external governor when the engine already has an internal one?

Carl,
The governor in the injection pump basically is to hold the idle speed and prevent over-revving, it won't hold a constant speed in the middle of its range. At least not with any accuracy.



would buy that if the belt-driven governor was better than the Bosch unit on the VW engine, but it looks just like one used on gasoline-powered turf equipment , which is good-but-not-great at holding speed.

Also, he still has to be using the original engine governor- the belt-driven governor is connected right to it so in the end, the Bosch is still doing all of the fuel control, the belt-driven one is just an elaborate and unnecessary speed-setting screw.


My governor will hold the speed to about +/- 1, maybe 2 cycles. When a load hits the generator, the governor control arm definitely moves, I wouldn't call it unnecessary or redundant.

As far as fuel use, as I mentioned, it's maybe 1/2 gallon/hour under 'normal' load, which is < 2Kw. That's entirely acceptable to me, for my usage patterns. Again, as I mentioned earlier, our power is usually quite reliable, it's been literally over a year since I had to use the genset. I do try to run it monthly, more or less, for a couple of hours, and under a bit of a load.

Doc Nickel
11-05-2014, 07:26 PM
Good thing wind chill doesn't affect machinery.

-Technically it does. If the truck is already cold, then no. But if it's warm or you're trying to warm it up, then yes- the greater the wind speed, the faster any heat you generate is carried away.

Yeah, 'wind chill' is just a figurative number describing how cold it "feels" to a person, but the effect is the same to a warm machine- the moving air carries away heat faster. In this case, it'd be a question of how fast a truck would cool off to the point it could no longer be restarted, after it was shut off. And on the really cold and blustery days, I'm told that can be less than ten minutes.

Doc.

Ohio Mike
11-05-2014, 09:45 PM
My governor will hold the speed to about +/- 1, maybe 2 cycles. When a load hits the generator, the governor control arm definitely moves, I wouldn't call it unnecessary or redundant.

As far as fuel use, as I mentioned, it's maybe 1/2 gallon/hour under 'normal' load, which is < 2Kw. That's entirely acceptable to me, for my usage patterns. Again, as I mentioned earlier, our power is usually quite reliable, it's been literally over a year since I had to use the genset. I do try to run it monthly, more or less, for a couple of hours, and under a bit of a load.

Very interesting. I considered some sort of generator setup when I moved in here. Immediately the issues of speed control and fuel burn rate become a concern. Some time shortly after I snagged a portable generator on clearance. Not a Honda but powered by a Subaru Robin motor. Very nice outfit. Small enough it doesn't suck my wallet dry when running it but large enough to run everything I need to survive.

Power reliability doesn't always correspond to your proximity to "civilization". I live in an urban area and the power is 10+ times as likely to go out here as it did where I grew up and we were the second house from the end of the wire in rural Ohio.

J Tiers
11-05-2014, 11:47 PM
Got briefly involved with a genset project for far North oil areas, for a well known company. The diesel sets were not rated to start decently below about +5C, so the heater deal to get them running from ambient was insane... Oil heaters, of course. Coolant heaters... Air heaters.....

Then once started, you can't ventilate the enclosure and blow ambient air through the radiator, you'll freeze the thing again. There was a control system to let in just the right amount of ambient air to keep the diesel happy, for cooling plus intake air.

Gasoline engines start far better than diesels. Even so, I have not-so-fond memories of starting the carbureted cars when they were stone cold at -30 or so.... That was always good for a thrill, probably pulling a couple plugs and "bailing it out" with a plastic dropper, shooting ether into the carb, maybe hauling the battery in for a warm-up charge after a bit.... Cars were parked too far away to use block heaters. I didn't know at the time that it was 50+ deg colder than a diesel really likes for starting

Best idea was to use the "Dr Pepper" method. Get up and start/warm them up at 10, 2 and 4 so they would "go" at 6:30 AM. Just my idea of a good night's sleep. Get fricking up at 2or 4 AM, get dressed and out in the -30 night to start a &^%! car with seats that felt like -60, and sit there until you felt some warm air from the vents, then stagger back in undress and flop, knowing you will do it again in a couple hours.

Fuel injection seems to have removed a lot of the drama.

My idea of fun does not include doing that to a genset while everything else cools down, at negative whatever..... It was bad enough when I was young and stupid.

Doc Nickel
11-06-2014, 12:19 AM
Among the old pioneer tales from back in the early days of Alaska, when much of the state was only accessible by small plane or dogsled, was the common story about how the pilots would drain the oil out of the plane, and bring it inside for the night. Depending on who you talked to, some would even heat it up on the stove just before taking it out to put it back in the engine.

That one I can't vouch for directly, but it's a common enough story that somebody must have done it at some point. :D

Doc.

rowbare
11-06-2014, 08:53 AM
Gasoline engines start far better than diesels.

Seeing this triggered a really vague recollection (or something I imagined?) of a big diesel engine with a smaller gasoline engine mounted on top. You would start the gasoline engine and use it to crank the diesel. It might have been a backup generator installation.

Anyone else ever seen or heard of something like this? Like I say, a really vague recollection...

bob

A.K. Boomer
11-06-2014, 09:05 AM
That's actually fairly common, but now im thinking of something that was possibly imagined but thought I heard it on here at one time or another - A diesel that starts as a gas and then converts to diesel after running for a bit? did I imagine this?

jdunmyer
11-06-2014, 09:59 AM
Diesel engines with "pony" or cranking engines were very common years ago. John Deere had the Model 'R', then the 70, 720, 730, 80, 820, and 830 models. Caterpillar had many engines that used a gas cranking engine, some of those were started with a rope, just like an old lawn mower. My buddy had a Cat D4 that was like that. He was telling me, "I hadda replace the starter on the D4 the other day. Darned if I didn't have the hardware store cut the rope too short!".

The Diesels that started on gas, then switched to Diesel were made by International Harvester and used in crawlers and farm tractors in the early 50's. The had a small pre-combustion chamber with a spark plug; it connected to the main cylinder via a little poppet valve. A small carburator was fitted to the intake manifold and there was a conglomeration of butterflys, etc. to make the intake air go either through the carb or bypass it. To start these things, you'd pull the big switching lever to the rear, main throttle to the rear (fuel cutoff), pull the choke and crank 'er up, just like any other gas engine. Let 'er warm up for a bit, then push the switching lever forward along with the main throttle. You'd get a puff of black smoke and she'd settle into the typical Diesel rattle. When you shut it down, you'd switch it to gasoline operation for a short bit to make sure the plugs were clean, then shut if off. Put the lever ahead to seat the little valves to keep them from warping.

CarlByrns
11-06-2014, 10:35 AM
My governor will hold the speed to about +/- 1, maybe 2 cycles. When a load hits the generator, the governor control arm definitely moves, I wouldn't call it unnecessary or redundant.


Help me understand this set up better- does the external governor control the fuel rack directly, or does it just tug the demand lever on the internal governor?

My 4000 watt Briggs-powered Coleman posts similar numbers: +/- 2 hz, 1/2 gallon per hour @ 3000 watts. Frequency and loads measured with my trusty Kil-O-Watt meter.

I do like the diesel (long term fuel storage is easier) and the increased headroom your set up has.

CarlByrns
11-06-2014, 10:37 AM
The Diesels that started on gas, then switched to Diesel were made by International Harvester and used in crawlers and farm tractors in the early 50's. The had a small pre-combustion chamber with a spark plug; it connected to the main cylinder via a little poppet valve. A small carburator was fitted to the intake manifold and there was a conglomeration of butterflys, etc. to make the intake air go either through the carb or bypass it. To start these things, you'd pull the big switching lever to the rear, main throttle to the rear (fuel cutoff), pull the choke and crank 'er up, just like any other gas engine. Let 'er warm up for a bit, then push the switching lever forward along with the main throttle. You'd get a puff of black smoke and she'd settle into the typical Diesel rattle. When you shut it down, you'd switch it to gasoline operation for a short bit to make sure the plugs were clean, then shut if off. Put the lever ahead to seat the little valves to keep them from warping.

These are always fun to watch at antique tractor shows.

A.K. Boomer
11-06-2014, 10:49 AM
It's an interesting concept - all based off of the lower flashpoint of gasoline (which is much much lower than diesel) VS the autoignition temperature of diesel (which incidentally is lower than Gasoline)

I guess "flexfuel" engines have been out for quite sometime now :-)

Willy
11-06-2014, 11:29 AM
While some rental trucks have speed limiters(usually electronic), they're not the primary fuel control- the injection pump governor matches fuel to load, pure and simple.

Load does not equal speed! In the heavy truck on a hill example, the driver calls for more engine power because the truck is slowing down against gravity and gearing. The driver could (and will probably have to) drop a gear to keep the engine in its power band. Next time you pass a truck grinding up a steep hill, note that the engine will be at the maximum revolutions the fuel control (mechanical or electronic) allows. The fuel flow for an unloaded engine at 1800 rpm will be a lot less than the same engine at 1800 rpm pulling a loaded trailer up a steep hill. Same speed, different load.

Carl you are missing the concept of and use of the various types of governors in use on diesel engines. I very briefly touched on two or three different types in a previous post, there are many more. Your idea of what a governor does is very limited in scope.

When I spoke of speed limiting governors I meant engine speed limiting, not vehicle speed limiting. By the way, these are also sometimes refereed to as two speed governors since that is essentially all they do.
As I stated earlier, this type of governor limits and controls both low idle speed and high idle or maximum speed.
In between these two points there is no governor control to detect and maintain engine speed due to variations in load.

The driver in effect becomes the load sensing component in the equation. He is the one that determines how much throttle to apply, (and thus the amount of fuel delivered to the engine), on a hill in order to maintain a given engine speed.
Trust me the last thing you want is for the engine to try and do this for you! Think of it as a cruise control that will not disengage, not very pleasant! Think about it.

The concept of governor operation you have ingrained in your mind is what is refereed to as a variable speed governor such as those commonly used in a tractor for example.
This type of governor not only controls low idle and high idle engine speeds but also has the ability to maintain engine speed under various loads, such as when using a pto for example or maintaining a pre-set speed when using implements under varying soil conditions.

You asked the question of why Jdunmyer added the separate mechanical governor. This is why.
An automotive type of fuel injection pump simply does not have the ability to control a variable load at a fixed speed. The Bosch VE type of pump on his engine is also available in a variable speed governor version for this very reason. I have several of these types of pumps on hand in both configurations, albeit for six cylinder applications.
If you don't like the answer then perhaps you can tell us why since neither his nor my explanation suits your preconceived notion of the operation of a diesel fuel pump governor in an automotive application.

larry_g
11-06-2014, 12:22 PM
These are always fun to watch at antique tractor shows.

Just yesterday I was operating my old, 1953 TD6, crawler that is just what Jdunmyer describes. It has never been to a show, it is a working rig. It takes two feet and five hands to operate but it does get the job done.

lg
no neat sig line

Black Forest
11-06-2014, 02:02 PM
In a former life I had two big Link Belt machines. They both had pony engines. I remember telling a new guy that worked for me to go pull the starter on one. The rest of the guys looked at me kind of funny. When the fella went down to the pit we took bets on how long it would take him to find the starter.

jdunmyer
11-06-2014, 02:39 PM
Plunger,
Willy explained things very well as far as the governor operation.

Before this outfit, I had an old Continental Y-69, 4-cylinder gas engine from an I-H combine, probably early 40's vintage, that I had coupled to an equally old Miller welder/generator. That generator called for 1800 RPM for making power, 3000 RPM for welding. As the engine had cast-iron pistons, it vibrated like the dickens at 3000 RPM, but ran smooth as silk at 1800. The generator was rated at 5000 watts and worked pretty well, except for running my Internet computers. The UPSs weren't real happy with the power, so would keep switching back and forth between 'battery' and 'line'. That's why I built this rig, it has enough extra that the computers and UPSs would operate correctly. About a year later, I sold the Internet business, but still have the generator. In the last few years, the power company installed a new substation just down the road, so our power is even more reliable than before. Well, except our longest outage, at 21 hours, was AFTER the new substation came online. Go figure.

LG,
I had a TD-6 for a while, also a J-D Model 'R'. Starting either was a real treat, and a total mystery to the uninitiated. :-) A few years ago, a fella at the Portland, IN engine show had a restored I-H stationary power unit that used an engine from a TD-24. Watching him start that thing was a thrill for me. When I was a kid, my Granddad had a woods cleared, and the guy had a TD-24. I watched him start it one morning and was just amazed. It's been about 60 years ago, and I'll never forget it.

Now, I get in my VW Passat TDI, wait 2 or 3 seconds, twist the key, and she's running. No hesitation, no white smoke, no cranking period, just a couple of pistons through compression and it's going. Even the old VW Diesels made you wait for 30 seconds, so there was at least SOME mystique involved.

It'd be neat to have a TDI engine on my genset, but I wouldn't want to attempt to interface with all the electronics. Even my 2000 Jetta was drive by wire, no physical connection between the pedal and the pump. The nice thing about the TDI is the torque curve is lower, it pulls quite well at only 1800 RPM.

Doc Nickel
11-06-2014, 03:23 PM
Seeing this triggered a really vague recollection (or something I imagined?) of a big diesel engine with a smaller gasoline engine mounted on top. You would start the gasoline engine and use it to crank the diesel. It might have been a backup generator installation.

-Earlier this summer I took a trip upstate. There's a place called Delta Junction where the main in-state highway meets the Alcan- the Alaska/Canada highway that eventually leads to the states. There at Delta, one of the local establishments had some heavy equipment parked- the remains of the old equipment that had been used to build the original Alcan back in the 40s, and/or used to upgrade it in the later years.

Among them was this old cable Cat.

http://docsmachine.com/2014/dozer1.jpg

It appeared surprisingly complete, right down to the carburetor on the little 2-cylinder gasoline pony motor:

http://docsmachine.com/2014/dozer2.jpg

As I understand it, yes, that's the "starter". As for starting the starter, I think that rusty rod to the left connects to a crank for starting. Somebody with more familiarity with this model should be able to let us know, though.

Doc.

jdunmyer
11-06-2014, 04:30 PM
Doc,
You're exactly correct. A local fella restored a Cat D6 (I think that's the model) and it has an identical setup. I've also seen configurations where the pony motor's crank sticks up vertically through the hood, also some have an electric starter on the pony motor.

Weston Bye
11-06-2014, 05:09 PM
One summer as a teenager, I spent a lot of hours on a Cat D-4. Started it every morning and noon with the gas pony motor.

My brother did the same, and when he was drafted into the Army they assigned him to a construction battalion. While in training he proved to be more proficient with the Cats than the instructors. He stayed at Fort Benning for his whole tour of duty. I was happy enough for that - I went to Viet Nam, rather than him, but was I in a relatively safe place on an aircraft carrier.

Black_Moons
11-06-2014, 05:33 PM
Doc,
You're exactly correct. A local fella restored a Cat D6 (I think that's the model) and it has an identical setup. I've also seen configurations where the pony motor's crank sticks up vertically through the hood, also some have an electric starter on the pony motor.

Today I am picturing a cargo container ship. Little electric start 12HP engine with recoil backup... Used to start a 200HP tractor engine.. used to start a 5000HP powerplant.. used to start a 200000hp cargo container ship engine :)

jdunmyer
11-06-2014, 06:12 PM
Sometimes, you just hand-crank the thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROnb5ouBjNc

It's actually a gasoline/petrol engine, but of 700 Hp size. The crank is winding up an inertia starter. Interestingly, all the guys around the machine seem to be speaking in British accents.

boslab
11-06-2014, 06:31 PM
Sometimes, you just hand-crank the thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROnb5ouBjNc

It's actually a gasoline/petrol engine, but of 700 Hp size. The crank is winding up an inertia starter. Interestingly, all the guys around the machine seem to be speaking in British accents.
It this lot, I've seen the tank in question
http://www.tankmuseum.org/
Good day out
Mark

J Tiers
11-07-2014, 10:10 PM
Among the old pioneer tales from back in the early days of Alaska, when much of the state was only accessible by small plane or dogsled, was the common story about how the pilots would drain the oil out of the plane, and bring it inside for the night. Depending on who you talked to, some would even heat it up on the stove just before taking it out to put it back in the engine.

That one I can't vouch for directly, but it's a common enough story that somebody must have done it at some point. :D

Doc.

The manual I have for a 14 cyl radial engine gives instructions for using the oil dilution valve. In cold weather, avgas is mixed in the oil to thin it. Of course it is driven off in use fairly quickly.

A.K. Boomer
11-08-2014, 07:30 AM
That inertia starter was very interesting to watch - did not know they made such a thing, interesting to hear it winding up and there's definitely some RPM's going on there...

jdunmyer
11-08-2014, 09:47 AM
The manual I have for a 14 cyl radial engine gives instructions for using the oil dilution valve. In cold weather, avgas is mixed in the oil to thin it. Of course it is driven off in use fairly quickly.


I read a book about WWII in the Aluetian Islands (Alaska), and it described draining the oil and keeping it warm overnight, pouring it into the engine before starting. This was from the warbirds, attacking the Japanese on one or 2 of the islands.

J Tiers
11-08-2014, 10:48 AM
I read a book about WWII in the Aluetian Islands (Alaska), and it described draining the oil and keeping it warm overnight, pouring it into the engine before starting. This was from the warbirds, attacking the Japanese on one or 2 of the islands.

That works, if you have a big can, and a warm place, etc. And time to get it poured back in....

The engine in question (I can check which make/model it is) had a dilution valve built in, so it must have been pretty standard as a technique for cold weather.