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kendall
11-07-2014, 07:31 PM
When discussing automotive engines, far too many times I have to argue with people that claim "electronic ignition means a stretched timing chain doesn't matter'
when do you stop trying to prove that it does?

ironmonger
11-07-2014, 07:42 PM
I would just wait for the mechanical Darwinian moment and walk away smiling to myself... quietly thinking of the words of A. Einstein:
“The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.”

paul

mattthemuppet
11-07-2014, 07:53 PM
life's too short to argue with people who are unwilling to consider an different opinion. Otherwise it simply becomes who can shout the loudest!

darryl
11-07-2014, 08:24 PM
when do you stop trying to prove that it does? As soon as you realize that your words are in vain. When you realize the argument isn't going to result in an improvement in someones knowledge base, you can stop- knowing that you tried. If you carry on, it's your choice to do so, and you accept your reactions to it all from that point on.

Black_Moons
11-07-2014, 08:35 PM
When discussing automotive engines, far too many times I have to argue with people that claim "electronic ignition means a stretched timing chain doesn't matter'
when do you stop trying to prove that it does?

When it snaps, leaving the exhaust/intake valves in the way of the quickly rising piston, turning the job from $50 in parts to $1500.

Black Forest
11-07-2014, 09:17 PM
I learned a long time ago with horse owners that it is useless to try to convince them of anything. Now I just tell them what I think is going to happen and stop. Remembering the old saying," You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink it." When they get hurt by the horse or the horse gets hurt they mostly still don't believe what I said. Making all kinds of excuses for their behavior or the horses.

lakeside53
11-07-2014, 09:18 PM
Same with owners of dogs.

And wives.... lol..

CCWKen
11-07-2014, 10:29 PM
When discussing automotive engines, far too many times I have to argue with people that claim "electronic ignition means a stretched timing chain doesn't matter'
when do you stop trying to prove that it does?

As soon as YOU realize that it doesn't matter to you. :)

Is it your car? Fagetaboutit.

CarlByrns
11-07-2014, 10:47 PM
Audiophiles take this to a whole nother level: they refuse to believe the results of A/B testing if it means the cheaper amplifier sounded better. Very easy to separate from their money :)

I give up on an argument when the other side stops listening.

justanengineer
11-07-2014, 11:11 PM
I design recip engines for a living so I usually stay FAR away from most engine discussions bc of it. After growing up on the farm and most of a decade wrenching professionally I thought I knew a thing or three about engines, then I started my current career and realized how much more there was to learn.

In the OP's case, I'd suggest giving up quickly bc you're pissing into a strong wind.

KJ1I
11-07-2014, 11:19 PM
When it snaps, leaving the exhaust/intake valves in the way of the quickly rising piston, turning the job from $50 in parts to $1500.

What world do you live in? I just had to pay $3800 to have the timing belts in my wife's GMC replaced. Just the parts were over $1200.

Bummer :(

PS: the car's 1323 miles out of warranty

J. Randall
11-07-2014, 11:33 PM
When discussing automotive engines, far too many times I have to argue with people that claim "electronic ignition means a stretched timing chain doesn't matter'
when do you stop trying to prove that it does?
Just agree with them that it doesn't matter as long the subject is ignition timing. Tell them that cam timing is a whole nother subject.
James

Rich Carlstedt
11-07-2014, 11:41 PM
" I refuse to have a battle of wits, with an unarmed man "

Famous quote by ?
Rich

gcude
11-08-2014, 12:59 AM
Sometimes it's better to know how people work, rather than being more knowledgeable about how engines (or anything else) work.

Old Hat
11-08-2014, 01:29 AM
when do you stop trying to prove that it does?

Depends on the dufuss, and the day, and the mood.
Sometimes let it go.
Sometimes drag it out, and see how many other dufusses come to resue the original dufuss.
........ they feel empowered in numbers......... It's fun to watch as it never fails.

oldtiffie
11-08-2014, 02:27 AM
When discussing automotive engines, far too many times I have to argue with people that claim "electronic ignition means a stretched timing chain doesn't matter'
when do you stop trying to prove that it does?

I know sweet FA about things automotive - and a lot else too - so they soon realise that I am a dick-had and that I am agreeing with them they give up - unless they think I am stroking their ego (which they are wrong about) and my something else ) which they are very much right about - no arguments there - from either of us.

QED

danlb
11-08-2014, 02:31 AM
Just agree with them that it doesn't matter as long the subject is ignition timing. Tell them that cam timing is a whole nother subject.
James

That is the best answer so far. Agree and then clarify. That disarms them and then educates them.


If the subject is anything else, it's just not worth wasting your breath some times. The problem is that the other person often continues to argue long after I've capitulated.

Maybe I need to explain what capitulated means?

Dan

boslab
11-08-2014, 02:58 AM
I suppose that a stretched timing chain can be compensated for by electronic ignition so the engine will run, am I correct?, however the engine will not run when the catastrophic failure of said component occurs, I'm guessing that there may be two different arguments here, a stretched chain being compensated for along with chain failure imminent, you could add in chain tensioner worn and about to drop the chain too, i would imagine in an interference engine valve/piston collision would be imminent,
You could tell them it doesn't matter, but will when the chain snapped or came off the sprockets, then the engine will need rebuilding with camshaft, timing gear, valves,pistons, rebore or sleeve, x amount of hours work, however the electronic ignition pack is working fine
The good thing about the check engine light being lit is you know it's working
Aren't people fun
Mark

J Harp
11-08-2014, 07:46 AM
Rich Carlsteadt.

I think that quote is attributed to Mark Twain.

A.K. Boomer
11-08-2014, 08:42 AM
When discussing automotive engines, far too many times I have to argue with people that claim "electronic ignition means a stretched timing chain doesn't matter'
when do you stop trying to prove that it does?

I argue till im blue in the face - and then I don't give up - I beat it into peoples heads till they understand, it's just my nature.

If you understand theory of operation then you can pretty much do whatever you want that way, you can also "leapfrog" many of the engineers themselves that design "lesser systems"...

Just simple electronic ignition will not fully compensate as all it's capable of doing is taking care of the ignition timing aspect,
BUT if the car is equipped with VVT then that's an entirely different ball game - or one should at least realize "could be" with no more sensors than it already has, it would then just be a matter of programming.

in theory (and in practice for along time now on certain vehicles) here's how it works, ALL VVT vehicles have both a crank and a cam sensor, the computer just uses the crank as a constant for ignition timing as it's of course linked directly to the pistons, it's the cam that's the variable for valve timing but remember it's being "watched" and the computer knows exactly where it's at - VVT's are already compensating throughout the RPM and load range to find the optimum cam timing - and since there is a sensor on the cams position giving feedback then one can do whatever they want including taking up the slack of a stretched belt or chain, and remember it knows this due to the crank sensor being the constant in which everything is judged.
separating the ignition timing from this phase change on the cam and keeping it stable by going off the crank sensor will allow for the computer to figure out the perfect ignition timing for any given situation, including where the cam resides and it's effects,
so - bottom line is the end results know absolutely no difference IF the VVT is built with enough extra mechanical "swing" to handle the increased variations of the drive deviations (wear)...

and all is running just like brand new -------- till like someone stated a belt snaps,,, now your just as screwed as anyone else and possible more.

there are exceptions to this rule and that is that the system is either not designed to compensate or maybe it's a DOHC that only controls it's intake cam - (which many just do) then the exhaust will not be compensated. not as big of a deal since the intake is the dominant cam for all kinds of reasons - but still the engine will be off some on the exhaust timing no matter what you do...

When I designed and built my 4 stroke cylinder head that used ports instead of valves I created a VVT system to go along with it over 30 years ago, (well actually a VPT - variable port timing) however, it was far more simple than what they are doing today yet only used one hydraulic actuator to control both the individual intake and exhaust ports... same could be done with cams that operate valves and in fact im somewhat surprised I have not seen anything like it as it would outdo a single phaser on just an intake cam side, but would not be quite as accurate going up against a duel phase system.

keep in mind my system was not computer controlled or anything like that, it was simply RPM related so as to retard intake and advance exhaust as revolutions increased towards redline... still - way way ahead of it's time some 30+ years ago.

jep24601
11-08-2014, 09:34 AM
I don't argue. When the disussion ends it ends.

AD5MB
11-08-2014, 10:22 AM
some people argue just for the sake of argument
some people refuse to listen to any fact that disagrees with their preconceived notion
some people are looking for an excuse to call you a name, which in their mind makes them superior to you.

I don't argue. when an immature adult tries to argue with me I teach someone else who has the maturity to listen without interrupting. many times that is a grade school child.

DS_park
11-08-2014, 01:22 PM
Quote "...when do you stop trying to prove that it does?"

Usually the following applies better to domestic issues but I think it is pertinent here.

"Would you rather be right or happy?" or "Would you rather be happy or right?"

Unless its an imminent threat to life or health, I usually go with happy.

jep24601 gas a good point too.... "...don't argue. When the disussion ends it ends."

KJ1I
11-08-2014, 02:11 PM
some people refuse to listen to any fact that disagrees with their preconceived notion

Absolutely, totally correct.

Mike Nash
11-08-2014, 02:45 PM
I have been browsing some threads on a machining forum that allows political discussions - and trying to do it with an outsider's eye. Wow, I have to agree with the preconceived notion viewpoint. It seems that even people that think they are balanced in their views really aren't and everyone else is firmly stuck to one end of the magnet or the other. It really makes me rethink the need to reevaluate what I think I know.

And no, this wasn't about politics, that's just what I happened to be looking at when I noticed how irrational we can get.

A.K. Boomer
11-08-2014, 03:36 PM
Arguing brings out both the best and worst in people, in this case --- id have to say worst although funny lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MCtC_U4e2o


as far as those who refuse to ever, I cannot relate, I need to see more backbone in someone than what a bucket of kelp has to offer to at least know someone is in there and what they "might" be thinking, personally I would never be so rude to keep people in the dark like that, generally never a problem with me...

I could even argue about arguing, I think overall it's a good thing esp. if the opposite end of the spectrum is considered - IMO those are the people you have to watch, everything is normal for 40 or 50+ years and then the next thing you know there in the news for opening fire inside a chucky cheese or something... just because the rubber band got twisted a little too tight...

Seastar
11-08-2014, 04:11 PM
I grew up in a family that argued about everything.
I remember my grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles and dozens of cousins arguing every time we got got togrther on holidays or at any other gathering.
I learned a lot by listening and joining in.
Nothing wrong with a good argument if both parties also listen and think while it's going on.
My wife hated the family arguments when we were first married.
She has learned to hold her own with me in the last 62 years we have been married.
Bill

adatesman
11-08-2014, 04:23 PM
Depends if I have hard evidence I'm correct, I care to educate the other person on why they're wrong (while being open to the chance /I'm/ actually wrong), and if my wife's involved.

The last one trumps the first two.

AD5MB
11-08-2014, 08:52 PM
I wrote a web site that proves incontrovertibly that the Founding Fathers want you to have an AR-15 and a 9 MM. The people who need it most refuse to read it and claim that it is impossible. The people who don't need convincing think it should be taught in schools.

Google Liberal Logic 101 and Conservative Logic 101. Both sides say the exact same things about the other side. Nobodies right when everybodies wrong

Old Hat
11-08-2014, 10:15 PM
Nobodies right when everybodies wrong

In metal working the arguments when boiled down, rarely are a matter of right/versus/wrong.

Most often it's effective/vs/ineffective, or effective/vs/more effective.

Many are will/vs/will not, shorten tool life, increase crash risk, cause more damage/less damage/ no damage.
=====================
Example, skilled large~work machinists rapid, or even high~feed to location with the spindle off (not turning.)
The damage force of a dead spindle collision, is nothing compared to the force of a collision
with the full driving force of the spindle behind it. CNC drives will trip within milliseconds of a spike in ampurage draw.

Even old manual table, saddle, column and ram drives will trip well before huge forces build up.
A large part will be dented, sraped or gashed at the worst. 30, 40, 80, HP can total a machine....
....In a HEART BEAT.

The fools in the other camp leave the spindle on and whimper and whine of Brinelled bearings.

martik
11-09-2014, 01:06 AM
I have yet to convince someone that cranking up the thermostat way past a comfortable setpoint will NOT heat the house faster with a single stage gas furnace :) Of course a two-stage will, but that's beyond 'someones' comprehension.

Old Hat
11-09-2014, 02:17 AM
'someones' ?

Mrs. someone ?;)

Arcane
11-09-2014, 03:18 AM
When discussing automotive engines, far too many times I have to argue with people that claim "electronic ignition means a stretched timing chain doesn't matter'
when do you stop trying to prove that it does?

If you think thats bad, try arguing with someone that timing chains do not "stretch", they elongate from wear.

Paul Alciatore
11-09-2014, 03:57 AM
Boy, you got that one right. No one is more convinced that their expensive technology is vastly superior, even in the face of absolute evidence to the contrary. Been there, argued with them, never could convince them.

You have to just give up.



Audiophiles take this to a whole nother level: they refuse to believe the results of A/B testing if it means the cheaper amplifier sounded better. Very easy to separate from their money :)

I give up on an argument when the other side stops listening.

Paul Alciatore
11-09-2014, 03:59 AM
Yea, my wife.


I have yet to convince someone that cranking up the thermostat way past a comfortable setpoint will heat the house faster with a single stage gas furnace :) Of course a two-stage will, but that's beyond 'someones' comprehension.

martik
11-09-2014, 04:40 AM
Maybe it's the speaker cable: Only $32,500 for approx 6' here: http://audiofederation.com/brands/kharma/kharma-price-list

which of course is mandatory for the ugly $540,000 speakers


Boy, you got that one right. No one is more convinced that their expensive technology is vastly superior, even in the face of absolute evidence to the contrary. Been there, argued with them, never could convince them.

You have to just give up.

SGW
11-09-2014, 06:06 AM
A lot of people confuse rearrangement of their prejudices with serious reasoning.

lynnl
11-09-2014, 08:30 AM
I have yet to convince someone that cranking up the thermostat way past a comfortable setpoint will heat the house faster.......

Perhaps that's because you're wrong. :) ....or did you intend to say "will NOT heat" the house faster?

Mike Nash
11-09-2014, 08:44 AM
There is a flaw in the thermostat argument. While true that the house may not heat faster with a higher setting, my body will decide it is finally warm enough only after the temperature has exceeded what most consider comfortable - at which sudden decision it starts to sweat. Sometimes it takes 85-95 degrees to reach that toggle point. After that I want it back down fast. I don't usually use the house furnace to get me there though.

CarlByrns
11-09-2014, 08:46 AM
'someones' ?

Mrs. someone ?;)

Repeat after me: Happy wife, happy life. (Courtesy of comedian Jeff Allen)

A.K. Boomer
11-09-2014, 09:09 AM
As many topics on here verify - it's not always about being "right" as there's usually more than one way to skin a catfish, then you got the guy that does not even bother due to a catfish not having scales, the devil is in the details, and sometimes nobody's wrong and everyone is right or visa versa...

there is however much to be learned about other viewpoints, and no one person has their act together to the point of being infallible - but I will say this much - not a whole lot gets by us as a team, we are not your average fellows and as a collective are pretty damn good even with allot of topics totally unrelated to machining. :)

martik
11-09-2014, 09:31 AM
Perhaps that's because you're wrong. :) ....or did you intend to say "will NOT heat" the house faster?

Thanks, Fixed the post :)

DR
11-09-2014, 10:56 AM
There's arguing, there's convincing others, and there's selling your ideas.

Way back decades when I worked in engineering I noticed this. The boss would present a problem, our job was to come up with solutions.

The best and most logical solution was not always the one chosen. It seemed in engineering school we were told if you write up your idea the boss would study and determine which of the solutions was the best and most logical. But, in the real world the boss didn't have the time to evaluate all submissions so he relied on the various engineer's presentations to convince him.

Some engineers were much better at arguing, convincing and selling because of more outgoing personalities. Unfortunately those engineers weren't always the ones with the best ideas. They were the ones who got the raises though. I worked with a couple very bitter engineers who totally failed at communicating their ideas, ideas that were sometimes by far the best.

Paul Alciatore
11-09-2014, 11:11 AM
Been there. Suffered through that. Management and the company got what they deserved. They are the true losers.



There's arguing, there's convincing others, and there's selling your ideas.

Way back decades when I worked in engineering I noticed this. The boss would present a problem, our job was to come up with solutions.

The best and most logical solution was not always the one chosen. It seemed in engineering school we were told if you write up your idea the boss would study and determine which of the solutions was the best and most logical. But, in the real world the boss didn't have the time to evaluate all submissions so he relied on the various engineer's presentations to convince him.

Some engineers were much better at arguing, convincing and selling because of more outgoing personalities. Unfortunately those engineers weren't always the ones with the best ideas. They were the ones who got the raises though. I worked with a couple very bitter engineers who totally failed at communicating their ideas, ideas that were sometimes by far the best.

justanengineer
11-09-2014, 11:47 AM
I have yet to convince someone that cranking up the thermostat way past a comfortable setpoint will NOT heat the house faster with a single stage gas furnace :) Of course a two-stage will, but that's beyond 'someones' comprehension.

Like many other discussions/arguments, that depends entirely upon the individual perspective and goal. If the goal is to get the zone with the thermostat to 70F, then sure, setting the thermometer beyond 70F wont make any difference. However, if the goal is to get EVERY zone of the house to at least 70F in the fastest possible manner then you might need to set the thermometer to 72F or more. Otherwise the thermostat will kick off when the zone its in heats up, but that doesnt necessarily mean the other zones are anywhere close to that temperature.

Can you tell Ive lived in many BIG old houses without good airflow or insulation? One converted apartment I had basically required the downstairs be at 75F+ and the heat constantly running to get the upstairs to 68F. My garage is like that now, which is why I added a second heater and thermostat specifically for it. Its connected and ducted from the house, but not as well insulated and suffers from pressure and temperature losses being at the end of the house trunk line.

BMW Rider
11-09-2014, 12:21 PM
To quote George Carlin: "Never argue with an idiot. They will just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

or Mark Twain: "Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

Now on the matter of timing chains and electronic ignition. If it is a modern distributor-less engine which uses a crankshaft position sensor, the ignition timing is unaffected by chain wear. The valve timing though will be and will still affect engine performance.

A.K. Boomer
11-09-2014, 12:36 PM
Now on the matter of timing chains and electronic ignition. If it is a modern distributor-less engine which uses a crankshaft position sensor, the ignition timing is unaffected by chain wear. The valve timing though will be and will still affect engine performance.

Right - and if its certain types of even more modern engines with VVT (which all have both crank and cam position sensors) then even the valve timing can be immune to chain or belt stretch...

oil mac
11-09-2014, 05:51 PM
I wonder (As we are talking about mechanical matters) if this is by and large a more common phenomenon in this modern world, by virtue of self sufficiency and common sense flying out the window, I seem to come across more and more self opinionated, arrogant, & ignorant D***K- H***s as the years have rolled past, some of these character's have been trained up and set high on a pedestal, where they think they are a superior God like special deity, Who like to lord it over the "Lesser sentient beings" and by bluster, bawling & shouting, they can convince todays typical management of their superior high intellectual knowledge etc., Usually one finds after they have left the establishment, to which they, In their deluded minds have graciously given everyone ulcers with their presence, It dawns on upper management "Joe Smith" could not have fitted a nut in a monkeys mouth, Does todays management own up to the fact, they have been unable to differentiate between a good guy and a waste of space! No chance of that happening, Would show them up for their lack of management skills
On another level, a pair I came across this week had as much intellectual attainment as a bed bug, Wow isn't todays education budget great value for money.

One could do worse than use Scott Adams Dilbert's Management Handbook as a source of reference

dp
11-09-2014, 07:15 PM
Perhaps that's because you're wrong. :) ....or did you intend to say "will NOT heat" the house faster?

It's true if he's really serious about heating the house itself, but not so much if he just wants the air in the house be be a comfortable temperature.

Wayne Sippola
11-09-2014, 09:45 PM
When discussing automotive engines, far too many times I have to argue with people that claim "electronic ignition means a stretched timing chain doesn't matter'
when do you stop trying to prove that it does?



No point arguing with someone not listening. We all have our opinions, and we all believe they're correct. Such as that the pin should / should not be left in an R8 spindle....

From your question, I suspect you're a mechanic. You're trying to sell a service that not everyone wants to buy. Though you think the service is required, it's still their choice. Why argue about it? You tell them what's needed, they accept or decline and take the expense or risk.

Wayne

RoyClemens
11-10-2014, 02:11 AM
Never enter into a pi$$ing contest with someone who thinks they are smarter than you. Either One, they are smarter than you and you look like a fool. Or two, they just think you are a fool, because of course, they think they are smarter than you. Either way, you lose.

Roy

A.K. Boomer
11-10-2014, 09:35 AM
Quote Originally Posted by kendall View Post
When discussing automotive engines, far too many times I have to argue with people that claim "electronic ignition means a stretched timing chain doesn't matter'
when do you stop trying to prove that it does?




No point arguing with someone not listening. We all have our opinions, and we all believe they're correct. Such as that the pin should / should not be left in an R8 spindle....

From your question, I suspect you're a mechanic. You're trying to sell a service that not everyone wants to buy. Though you think the service is required, it's still their choice. Why argue about it? You tell them what's needed, they accept or decline and take the expense or risk.

Wayne I agree with the spindle pin - to each their own as there are too many variables for there to be a right and a wrong and the biggest one is who's using the equipment. personally I would use a machine with whatever it came with as it's somewhat of a toss-up for me. does not mean it's not worthy of picking apart the finer details - that's what this place is all about...

But the OP's topic is more than a matter of opinion - it's a matter of fact, and Kendall's final question is "when do you stop trying to prove that it does?" Well - first off you stop trying to prove that it does - when it doesn't, anotherwords if the customer (or who-ever) is seriously trying to debate this you agree with them --- if the engine is also equipped with VVT,

it's an immediate way of defusing the situation, you say something like - oh yeah your right if it's also got VVT, but then quickly add that if it does not then it's only capable of taking care of the ignition timing aspect of it all - then explain that there's a whole nuther ballgame going on with the mechanical timing of the valves that will be lagging behind...

But then comes the serious part - now you don't want to "argue" with them but one has to be as firm as a good doctor would be with you if he/she found something urgent - you explain that all the compensation in the world does not matter if the vehicle has excessive miles and is equipped with an interference fit engine, in fact you explain how this type of technology can be an illusion as everything will seem like brand new - till something snaps,

and yes it's your job and duty to "shake them up" as once that interval is surpassed your rolling the dice on something that could potentially cost ten times the amount of just replacing the worn out component before it fails ---------- and you give them a rough figure of the disaster as compared to the maintenance cost, that usually works just fine.

and if they just plain can't afford it you may offer your services and a payment plan as long as they cover parts. and if they can't afford that you recommend getting a bicycle if the car is way over due and you think it's going to hand grenade soon...

that's all you can do - there really is no room for "argument" as your way beyond what they know about things like this and they at least have to hear you out - for there is the realization that if they knew more you would not even be having to have this discussion with them in the first place... :)

Kiwi
11-11-2014, 07:21 AM
Ok what's the difference and the relationship to the camshaft with electronic ignition
and say a MSD multi spark device?

J. Randall
11-11-2014, 10:05 PM
Ok what's the difference and the relationship to the camshaft with electronic ignition
and say a MSD multi spark device?

I have never used a MSD unit, but if it is what I am thinking, basically a replacement for ignition points, then the answer to your question would be no difference in the relationship.
James