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View Full Version : Effective mindsets for machining.. pro/homeshop



Old Hat
11-19-2014, 09:57 AM
Again I don't draw a line of separation between homeshop (hobby)
and professional (occupational) metal working regarding skill or any
measurement of importance.

However when you work on someone else's dime, there's a level of extranious
activity that is not encouraged, or perhaps tollerated.
I would encourage home shop brothers to at least consider this
even thO' you have the full option of engaging in odd equations
and ill~conceived poorly layed out sine-bar excersises. (other current posts).

We can learn from everything, "true" but there are things that can be quickly rejected
as having no likely value in application. An argument over a rant that goes on for pages
and pages getting nowhere. Attempting to make a thing work with given feeds and speeds
right "from the source" when it's clearly not working would fall in this cattagory.
Thow the damn book out the window, and turn up the brain-heat and go hunting for
a process that works.

================
“Do nothing that is of no use”
― Miyamoto Musashi,
==================
“from one thing, know ten thousand things”
― Miyamoto Musashi,
===============

I don't let my mind fill up with data I can get from print.
I rarely find it usefull to memorise anything.
Rather obsorb the dynamic of what I just saw work,
store it away in a way that it is not pidgeon-holed
but readilly pulled right back to the front from any point
of mental access to be re~applyed to a new situation
or at least be considered for it.

But that's just me.........

flylo
11-19-2014, 11:20 AM
So you don't memorize anything you can get from a book you threw out the window but you absorb dynamics & pull them back from any point of mental access?:confused:
I think I'd rather have common sense, mechanical aptitude & keep my book.:rolleyes:

Old Hat
11-19-2014, 11:31 AM
I shoulda set a timer.:(
Damn a wasted opportunity, and it ain't even lunch yet.

===========
See if this helps.
If a thing is well grasped, it is retained with~out effort no?
So inversely if a thing requires memorization I have to ask....

how much mind power is worth tie~ing up on a it?
Leave it somewhere on the hard drive, and keep the processor
uncluttered for rapid cogent responses.

Glug
11-19-2014, 11:45 AM
Different strokes for different folks.

I think many of us want to learn *why* something works or does not work, and we're willing to spend extra time trying to figure it out. That disovery and challenge is what makes it interesting and fun vs. "work". Working smarter vs. working harder.

There is also that delicate balance- The satisfaction of stepping into the shop and knocking a project out. Ah, sweet sweet project completion. Compared to the potential anguish of trashing a part due to a mistake. And some mistakes hurt more than others - like a dumb rookie mistake vs. trying to do something really challenging and just not quite pulling it off - but learning enough to get it right in the future.

A lot of us get out of practice, because we don't do this stuff every day. I find I must work a lot more methodically when I am out of practice. I need to spend more time thinking about what I'm doing vs just doing it. I learn a lot from most of those long threads. Even about stuff where I thought I pretty much already had it covered. Sometimes asking about something you think you already know can teach you a lot.

David Powell
11-19-2014, 11:46 AM
I use my home shop both for fun, building model steam engines, and for making a dollar, that is machining anything I can carry down the stairs myself that I reckon will help me make a living. With the models I am king, I decide on design, material, quality,even aesthetics. I have enough of them to play with already that I am not in a hurry-- a few hours extra are totally insignificant in the whole scheme of a 2000 hour plus adventure which I will likely give to my encouraging children and grandchildren once completed and run for fun for a year or two. However, work is a different kettle of fish, I make parts to drawings or sketches as rapidly as I know how, from material specified by customers,to as near those drawings as possible while making full use of the tolerances provided-- if they say within 10 thous then I make them within 10 thous whereas,just for my own satisfaction, I might spend extra time and chase one or two in model making. Experience gained from both mindsets crosses over and I feel both benefit from the other.Have fun work safe , regards David Powell.

Old Hat
11-19-2014, 11:56 AM
Different strokes for different folks.

I think many of us want to learn *why* something works or does not work, and we're willing to spend extra time trying to figure it out.
That disovery and challenge is what makes it interesting and fun vs. "work". Working smarter vs. working harder.
...........Even about stuff where I thought I pretty much already had it covered. Sometimes asking about something you think you already know can teach you a lot.
+1

Experience gained from both mindsets crosses over and I feel both benefit from the other.Have fun work safe , regards David Powell.
+1

Black Forest
11-19-2014, 01:30 PM
Hey Old Hat, what is your address? I need to crawl around outside that window that you threw all those books out and see if I can find you spelling primer and throw it back in and maybe if I hit you in the head some of it will sink in to that head of yours!!!!:cool:

Just pulling your leg. You are doing much better lately!

mklotz
11-19-2014, 01:34 PM
"I rarely find it usefull to memorise anything."

I don't think you needed to tell us that.

Old Hat
11-19-2014, 01:35 PM
Google Chrome... now !
Won't fix a word but it red-lines it.

Black Forest
11-19-2014, 02:07 PM
Google Chrome... now !
Won't fix a word but it red-lines it.

I use firefox and it underlines the words in red also. Then just right click and it gives the correct spelling. Click on the correct spelling and it fixes the word I typed wrong.

Baz
11-19-2014, 05:07 PM
The op's written communication skills do not live up to his proposed streamilined work porposal but I think he is trying to say that if you are employed in a miserable lifeless factory apply the same principles to your hobby so that you become a boring old fart.
SO
Only drink water since flavours and stimulants are unecessary.
Eat only food sufficient to sustain your life, that being bland and probably vegetarian.
Never decorate or paint anything except for corrosion protection since beautification is not cost effective.
Don't read fiction or watch any TV apart from the weather forcast as needed to plan exterior work sessions.
Music - bah humbug except for the work's hooter to get you out of bed (as in the 19th century mill towns.
Don't take it to hart - if you have one :)

Rich Carlstedt
11-19-2014, 08:19 PM
Mr Goebels- Home room teacher
Tilden Tech high School
Fall, 1953
Incoming Freshman Class
"What is intelligence ? "
" Is it memorizing this book ? " holds a book up to his head
"NO"
Throws book to the floor -BANG !
" memorizing a book clutters the brain"
"KNOWING where to look is--- INTELIGENCE"
May that fine man Rest In Piece--his words were not in vain.

+1 to Phil for reminding me of that occasion , and they are words to live by..I know I have followed them as well

Rich

Mr Fixit
11-19-2014, 08:24 PM
++1 Rich,
Knowing where to find it is the true sign of inteligence.

Chris:)

darryl
11-19-2014, 11:00 PM
Ah, but finding it in a book, then faking that you knew it already- that's intelligence :)

oldtiffie
11-19-2014, 11:11 PM
Again I don't draw a line of separation between homeshop (hobby)
and professional (occupational) metal working regarding skill or any
measurement of importance.

However when you work on someone else's dime, there's a level of extranious
activity that is not encouraged, or perhaps tollerated.
I would encourage home shop brothers to at least consider this
even thO' you have the full option of engaging in odd equations
and ill~conceived poorly layed out sine-bar excersises. (other current posts).

We can learn from everything, "true" but there are things that can be quickly rejected
as having no likely value in application. An argument over a rant that goes on for pages
and pages getting nowhere. Attempting to make a thing work with given feeds and speeds
right "from the source" when it's clearly not working would fall in this cattagory.
Thow the damn book out the window, and turn up the brain-heat and go hunting for
a process that works.

================
“Do nothing that is of no use”
― Miyamoto Musashi,
==================
“from one thing, know ten thousand things”
― Miyamoto Musashi,
===============

I don't let my mind fill up with data I can get from print.
I rarely find it usefull to memorise anything.
Rather obsorb the dynamic of what I just saw work,
store it away in a way that it is not pidgeon-holed
but readilly pulled right back to the front from any point
of mental access to be re~applyed to a new situation
or at least be considered for it.

But that's just me.........

I agree with the OP in this as the mastering of basic concepts and first (and later) principles in Shop Math, Geometry and Trigonometry 101 and principles of machines and machining are basic and fundamental to "Workshop Practice" as are an honest appreciation of the limits of machines and machining as well as the operator ("HSM-er"?) as well as what is really required of and for the job at hand.

I try to always evaluate a job using first principles as regards the need for the job and the tools available and build up from there.

Its certainly a lot easier that "jumping in" either half way through a job and perhaps into a big "hole" that is avoidable that you may well that you may well have dug yourself into.

Old Hat
11-20-2014, 02:25 AM
I use firefox and it underlines the words in red also. Then just right click and it gives the correct spelling. Click on the correct spelling and it fixes the word I typed wrong.

I'll haff ta try dat but me kinda sleepy!

Yeah it werks!

G'nite!

Baz
11-20-2014, 04:00 AM
++1 Rich,
Knowing where to find it is the true sign of inteligence.

Chris:)

"hay kidd, now U is 6 U kneed ter now that bildin is cawled er Libry and it's got lots of book stuff in it. now U nose that U dont kneed ter go ter SKOOL no mor co U is so intelllllergent"

boslab
11-20-2014, 07:35 AM
Google translate needs a few more options I think!, it didn't work with that, I can manage old hat, but mobile phone may as well be hieroglyphics for the sense it makes!
Mark
(When they find the rosseta billet all will be revealed!, I noticed billet had not popped up for a while so a timely reintroduction was nessicary )
Mark

vpt
11-20-2014, 08:06 AM
I use firefox and it underlines the words in red also. Then just right click and it gives the correct spelling. Click on the correct spelling and it fixes the word I typed wrong.


What does it tell you to do for collet?

Black Forest
11-20-2014, 08:20 AM
What does it tell you to do for collet?

Ask her out for a date!

Old Hat
11-20-2014, 08:23 AM
What does it tell you to do for collet?

Can't say for FireFox but for Goggle... right click collet;
it says remove pin, tighten drawbar, remove wrench before starting spindle. :rolleyes:

Weston Bye
11-20-2014, 08:45 AM
To quote myself:


I never paid much attention in school. That left a lot of room in my brain for imagination and ideas. -Weston Bye

RichR
11-20-2014, 09:23 AM
What does it tell you to do for collet?

I can't speak for Firefox, but Opera flags it as misspelled.

danlb
11-20-2014, 03:16 PM
" memorizing a book clutters the brain"
"KNOWING where to look is...

I've worked in a lot of complex jobs. The one I learned most from was at the Telephone company as an Electronic Switching System (ESS) technician. That was maintaining and repairing the huge computerized gear that connects phone calls from end to end. The machine was fantastically complex, with relatively few integrated circuits in a machine that filled a 20,000 foot room. Imagine a PC processor made of transistors, capacitors and other discrete components, filling a 6'x8'x2 foot equipment bay.

The year long training did not teach us to fix the thousands of individual circuits that we were expected to maintain. It taught us to trouble shoot and how to read the manuals. It taught us the terms that we needed to know. It gave us the information that we needed in order to be able to interpret everything in those manuals.

The technique worked well. We were able to fix any equipment in the office in a remarkably short period of time. Learning to recognize what's important in a manual is one of the most valuable skills I ever learned.


Dan

danlb
11-20-2014, 03:44 PM
When it comes to machining, the 'zen' of old hat does not really work for me. Why? Simple; Machining is not an art, it's science, pure and simple. If you use the same tool on the same material in the same way you always get the same result.

When I make some thing I try to plan it out. I have charts that will give me the range appropriate range of feeds and speeds for turning and milling. If I make a mistake that scraps a part, I have a plan that I can follow so that starting over will be easy, since I have written down the sizes and settings and locations.

You CAN do a lot of good work without ever planning a thing, or consulting any charts/books/tables. You can use a tape measure to get parts in the ball park and then file/grind/carve/scrape till it fits. You won't be prepared to make two identical parts. You won't be prepared to replicate an existing part. You surely won't be prepared to say with any certainty that you have made the part strong enough.

Threading is one of those skills that can be done as if it is an art, using guesses and approximations. You need a sample of the mating piece so you can keep cutting till it fits. Threading can also be approached as a science. If you know the formula you can follow a simple procedure that gives perfect threads every time. The trial and error might be more satisfying to some. The scientific method means only work errors will trash a part, and I find that more pleasurable.

My friend is more like Old Hat. He plans things out in his head and uses "rule of thumb" for most everything. He works with wood, and appearance is often more important than function. He spends half of his time making parts work together when the rule of thumb was not quite good enough, and then making further corrections later.

In short, machining (and welding) are science, and that has allowed me to teach myself even without an "Old Hat" to mentor me.

Dan

malbenbut
11-21-2014, 07:04 AM
I never learnt much at school but when I left and started work my real education started.

MBB

vpt
11-21-2014, 07:54 AM
I liked school right up till around 6th grade. Then it got redundant and boring. I dropped out after 8th grade and started going to trades school and college tech. I honestly don't regret it one bit, the only thing that sucked a bit was when looking for a job apparently having going to school for everything the job entails isn't as good as that piece of paper high school hands you when you leave. "Hello, welcome to aaaaa automotive, we see you completed all the courses for automotive, small engine, machining, welding, and every thing we do here but unfortunately you don't have a HED or GED saying you know pi so sorry. We are going to hire that geek over there who has never even looked at a wrench in his life but he graduated high school so hes got to be good." :/

Old Hat
11-21-2014, 12:25 PM
In short, machining (and welding) are science, and that has allowed me to teach myself even without an "Old Hat" to mentor me.

Dan

Congrats!
You got mentoring backwards.
It's a "take" game, not a "give" game.

One is made a Mentor by the takers. You don't make yourself a Mentor.
That's what's so cool about it.

boslab
11-21-2014, 06:58 PM
I used to have to mentor PhD students, quite funny, PhD,s are extremely specialised, a very small area of knowledge, it could be the yield point of steel, a particular crystal one chemical compound, it seems the better the qualification the smaller or less you know about everything!
It used to take ages to train them to make the coffee, more than 4 cups required a list of instructions.
I don't really prescribe to the zen if you want to describe it as that approach to anything at all, I have found it far more productive to try to think of a plan, then try to imagine how it's going to go wrong, I'm not usually disappointed in the failure modes, though new ones are always presenting themselves.
The closest I have seen to a zen, ish approach as been in the area of forge work, it seems that instinctive (things learnt by previous mistakes) working is acceptable, it's not as easy to come up with a conclusive plan of how to make something as there are so many variables and ways to achieve the same result.
However forging is not machining
I haven't seen a machinist anywhere doing anything like forge work, the system of machining is inexorably tied to the drawing, drawing of machine parts and making them evolved together, so from a drawing, you square up, mark out off datums, cut metal, inspect, if you tried any other way you end up making something called scrap, tools are designed for certain speeds and feeds, yes they can perform outside the envelope but not for long, that's making scrap tools.
You do however try to push tools as much as possible in a production environment, but not at home, there's no need, apart from the cost.
I've seen a new face mill run to destruction on one job, next one on machine, another complete new face mill and cutters!, the mill lasting about a month, scrap, get new mill and carry on, it's amazing what goes on in industry, cost no object when waiting for a part stops a whole steel plant at several hundred thousand a Minuit
You can't do things like that at home, mind I do miss the scrap bins!
Ramble over
Mark

tyrone shewlaces
11-21-2014, 07:18 PM
SO
Only drink water since flavours and stimulants are unecessary.
Eat only food sufficient to sustain your life, that being bland and probably vegetarian.
Never decorate or paint anything except for corrosion protection since beautification is not cost effective.
Don't read fiction or watch any TV apart from the weather forcast as needed to plan exterior work sessions.
Music - bah humbug except for the work's hooter to get you out of bed (as in the 19th century mill towns.
Don't take it to hart - if you have one

Works for me...


Machining is not an art, it's science, pure and simple

That doesn't work for me. I do this for a living and most of the time the stuff is pretty straightforward, but more often than you'd like, you have to warp space and time a little bit to get the outcome you want.
Just because metal is more stable than lumber, it doesn't mean it isn't constantly moving around in inconsistent ways. It just does that less.
Having said that, after a while the dance takes similar steps.


If you use the same tool on the same material in the same way you always get the same result
In my experience, on any given day, the same routine may just give you quite a bit of grief that wasn't there the last time you did it. There are dozens of variables that wiggle here and there whether or not you are aware of them. It's not just feeds and speeds. Some days just seem more pure and simple than others.
Ya kinda have to be able to surf the front edge of the wave a little.

PStechPaul
11-21-2014, 08:35 PM
Even in my machine tool classes (at least the toolingU homework), it is said that the final choice of speed, feed, DOC, and other parameters, is often based on a machinist's "feel" for the machine and the work. I have usually used very slow speeds in my home shop, partly because I want to minimize the damage or other havoc a mistake might cause, but also because it "feels right". The classes and homework generally advise or dictate using standard formula based on material, tool size, and rough vs finish cutting, but also there was a lesson that said tools can be damaged by high speeds more than any other factor. On my own machines, the lack of power sometimes limits the speed at which an operation can be performed, but also there is the factor of having to change belts or gears to use higher speeds, and I'm essentially lazy, so I'll avoid a two-minute belt change and have a 5 minute job take 20 minutes. Not good for production, but when the process itself is enjoyable, taking it slow and long is often more satisfying. And, hey, that's also what she said! :rolleyes:

danlb
11-21-2014, 10:49 PM
You have not identified and controlled the manufacturing variables if you find that you do the same job day after day and have to do it differently each time. Logically, if it were an art, there would be no assembly lines. There would be no interchangeable parts.

One of the nice things about metalworking is that the tolerances for "what works" is pretty broad in many (most?) cases. This allows a lathe or mill with only 5 speeds to be within range for proper SFM. The fine tuning that you do by feel does not necessarily mean that you have the optimal settings. It just means that they feel right and apparently work. :)


I suggest that if you are doing things by feel you can make life easier by logging the settings that you feel are right so that you can go back to them the next time you do exactly the same operation on the same size of material.

There are materials that are more finicky, but isn't that always the case?


Dan

Old Hat
11-22-2014, 01:57 AM
It would be neat to have a transporter on the forum.
Just think, we could go and see the "other" guy, his shop
and watch him validate his assertions, or not.

Kinda like going to the range, trade guns, argument is ended.
Go to the Pub and ............. ;)

POOF... dream'n for a second.
You cut & dried guys are funny sometimes.

danlb
11-22-2014, 02:16 AM
POOF... dream'n for a second.
You cut & dried guys are funny sometimes.

Yup. So are the "artsy folks" that think experience and "feels right" is the way to go.

If you think about it, there are millions of pages of tables and graphs, formulas and standard processes specifically with one objective; to allow a professional to do a job and know what the outcome will be.

Can you imagine the difficulty of building a bridge like the golden gate based on "this feels right" thinking?

One extreme of a "follow the book" trade appears to be welding. There are approved processes and materials for just about every possible job. Many welds are almost impossible to test upon completion. As a result, they rely on doing it exactly the same way and with the same materials as were proven to be valid before.

I'll accept being funny, since it also means that I can design a part and build it with a high degree of certainty that it will not be scrap IF I follow the plan.

Dan

Old Hat
11-22-2014, 02:24 AM
G'nite!
Gotta go bak in the morn'n, need my rest!:)

Black Forest
11-22-2014, 04:13 AM
Yup welding is definitely by the book if you are in critical welds. Even to the point that the weave pattern is called out on the drawings. No room for personalization of style of the bead pattern. I have seen some weldors escorted off the site for not following the specified call outs.

Glug
11-22-2014, 08:12 AM
It would be neat to have a transporter on the forum.
Just think, we could go and see the "other" guy, his shop
and watch him validate his assertions, or not.


I have long thought having "bench cams" or "lathe cams" would be neat. They'd feed into a central system and you could flip around the active feeds, looking at what other folks are working on, when you want to take a break or get some motivation. Added bonus, a squawk box, where viewers could bark out helpful suggestions via a speaker in the shop ;)

Old Hat
11-22-2014, 08:37 AM
Nice ! :o

Ohio Mike
11-22-2014, 08:39 AM
Mr Goebels- Home room teacher
Tilden Tech high School
Fall, 1953
Incoming Freshman Class
"What is intelligence ? "
" Is it memorizing this book ? " holds a book up to his head
"NO"
Throws book to the floor -BANG !
" memorizing a book clutters the brain"
"KNOWING where to look is--- INTELIGENCE"
May that fine man Rest In Piece--his words were not in vain.

+1 to Phil for reminding me of that occasion , and they are words to live by..I know I have followed them as well

Rich

Agreed true intelligence isn't memorizing you need to look in book "x" its understanding *why* its in a particular book. Intelligence is the ability to comprehend the text you read, and the events you experience -AND- correlate them to each other and distill them into usable knowledge not just memorizing.

Old Hat
11-22-2014, 08:48 AM
On the Mitsubishi I write from the hip, when I am given a new facemill and / or an odd alloy.
I base it on what ever I have done before. Load the program, and then pull the tables
or info from the tool rep and see how close I am.

I get skunked now and then but not usually.

tyrone shewlaces
11-22-2014, 10:46 AM
The neat thing in my opinion is that Dan can do things the way he wants, presumably the same way every time after looking up somebody else's recommendation (i.e. some table) and I get to continue to do things my way and continually adjust things depending on what is actually happening in my real world.

At the end of the day, both of us are happy.

p.s. I don NOT consider myself artsy regarding this stuff, just observant and practical.

MrFluffy
11-22-2014, 11:00 AM
Even welding has some art and craftsmanship to it. I can dial in the by the book settings for tig on 306 exhaust bends, but the outcome wont be nearly as neat as some welding god's work. Yes its "just" muscle memory, but training your muscles to the level of some of the welding artists is pure craftsmanship.
The art is also knowing when the book isnt right, or knowing it doesn't have *ALL* the information to do something. Sometimes you could write your own chapters with what you find out on the edge, should you choose to do so. Or you could keep it tucked up and call it experience and sell that specialist knowledge to people which is really what any specialist in their field does.
I work with graduates in a IT based field, they are great in stuff covered by the book, when it comes to venturing out into no-man's land, it ends up on my desk.
There is no cut and dried for every scenario. Only best fits, that you use your experience and knowledge to apply to your bespoke situation.
In every toolroom of every prototype dept, making the things to make the things to make a production line, theres a person in the corner who has no book.

Rich Carlstedt
11-22-2014, 11:59 AM
Even welding has some art and craftsmanship to it. I can dial in the by the book settings for tig on 306 exhaust bends, but the outcome wont be nearly as neat as some welding god's work. Yes its "just" muscle memory, but training your muscles to the level of some of the welding artists is pure craftsmanship.
The art is also knowing when the book isnt right, or knowing it doesn't have *ALL* the information to do something. Sometimes you could write your own chapters with what you find out on the edge, should you choose to do so. Or you could keep it tucked up and call it experience and sell that specialist knowledge to people which is really what any specialist in their field does.
I work with graduates in a IT based field, they are great in stuff covered by the book, when it comes to venturing out into no-man's land, it ends up on my desk.
There is no cut and dried for every scenario. Only best fits, that you use your experience and knowledge to apply to your bespoke situation.
In every toolroom of every prototype dept, making the things to make the things to make a production line, theres a person in the corner who has no book.

I love you guys...so much here on this thread, that I hope Newbies can read and understand, as it will go far for them to "understand"
Understanding is what is is all about.
I chuckle at the comments here about tables and books........What are they ?
They are guidelines to success...YES....but they don't always work, nor are they accurate at times
Some things we take as gospel...which is OK, but keep a sharp lookout for mistakes, errors,AND misunderstandings.
When Volume 26 of the Machinery's Handbook came out, I immediately wrote the publisher about two mistakes in that volume .
They had the wrong Thermal Expansion rate for steel (!) (wow ) and had a page upside down.( which isn't bad )
How can this happen to such a basic manual for machinists ?.....it happens because mistakes happen from a myriad of causes.
The tables are nothing more than guard rails on the highway. They are meant to keep most people on the road to the destination.
Whats funny is you see cars smash into them, the same as I have seen machinists crash parts by not adhering to them ( i.e. 500 FPM on SS !)

The key word i want to use is "understand the objective"
If you don't understand, follow the tables.
If you are new to the objective, follow the tables ( same as the road )
If you are working with new (to you) equipment, follow the tables
They will keep you out of trouble ...most of the time

The post above is great..a guy in the corner who has no book
If that guy doesn't understand, he should be fired. but I really believe the poster is referring to the guy who gets them out of trouble.
I am a Manufacturing Engineer ( don't be afraid , I wear my pants like you )
So many places think their shop practices are to the book, and yet they fail?
One shop I was hired at made hundreds of thousands of dollars of scrap parts each year.
They were ready to give up making custom machines. In less than 6 months, we made no scrap.
The process instituted made the making of scrap very difficult and solved the problem.
It is not in any book, but it was an understanding of the process they used and what had to change.
They went down kicking and screaming..until they saw the money it saved

So it is with shop practices we read about here . A fellow will post an op he has done and some congratulate him and other criticize
the work AND IN MANY CASES, they have never done it, nor UNDERSTAND the objective and tools at hand OR the skill of the poster !

So hats off to Phil for a great subject and perspective

Rich

Toolguy
11-22-2014, 12:30 PM
There is a lot of real world wisdom in this thread. I feel that Rich C. has summed it up very nicely. Thanks Rich!

Old Hat
11-22-2014, 09:36 PM
Yup welding is definitely by the book if you are in critical welds. Even to the point that the weave pattern is called out on the drawings. No room for personalization of style of the bead pattern. I have seen some weldors escorted off the site for not following the specified call outs.

Oopps,
Now yer begging another thread, dealing with the differences, and significances of.........
Validation / Qualification / Specification / and Certification.

In reality how the weld was put down, (method) allthough critical to acceptance or rejection;
isn't the God-Rod of the quality of the weld.

If the pre and post conditions that the alloy/alloys demand (not humans) demand were met.
AND 'if' the weld was controlled relative to time, by the welder. IE thru skill and experience
the welder (the man) mergeded every sub-step of the weld to the next step ....
again meeting the demands of the metal, the weld WILL be a VALIDATED weld.

It may also be a rejected weld, if not done to 'Specification'.
Don't be confused here. All constraints on a manufacturing process
have the effect of 'Certification' simply that it was performed as prescribed.

The only true measurement falls under the heading of Validation.
This is why my employer often has to supply a part for destructive evaluation.

Another non-destructive method works but it's non-transferable so to speak.
In other words, it's like non-backed currency, it's only good if it's accepted.

I use it all the Time!
Joe welded it, it's good you can stake your life on it.
Bill welded it, it's as good as Joe's work on a good day, but then there's days.
Fred, Sam, Jake, and Buster welded it, and they all have certs,
but it boggles my mind how they got them.

I've been cutting thru all kinds of welds, by scores of welders for decades.
I've leaned far more by doing this than by welding, or reading about welding
or even listening to the welders.

When a special machine just built dunt quite cut the mustard, it's back for mods.
I have to saw, grind, or mill thru areas never intended to see the light of day again.
In shops I stayed for years and years, I could tell you who welded it..... easilly as if
the welder had signed it.

So again the science is more the Man than the data, the information, the ducumentation
the prescription. It's always the Man and it always will be, no matter the technology.

Old Hat
11-22-2014, 09:46 PM
There is a lot of real world wisdom in this thread. I feel that Rich C. has summed it up very nicely. Thanks Rich!

+10
Yes thanks Rich!

oldtiffie
11-22-2014, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Black Forest View Post

Yup welding is definitely by the book if you are in critical welds. Even to the point that the weave pattern is called out on the drawings. No room for personalization of style of the bead pattern. I have seen some weldors escorted off the site for not following the specified call outs.


Oopps,
Now yer begging another thread, dealing with the differences, and significances of.........
Validation / Qualification / Specification / and Certification.

In reality how the weld was put down, (method) allthough critical to acceptance or rejection;
isn't the God-Rod of the quality of the weld.

If the pre and post conditions that the alloy/alloys demand (not humans) demand were met.
AND 'if' the weld was controlled relative to time, by the welder. IE thru skill and experience
the welder (the man) mergeded every sub-step of the weld to the next step ....
again meeting the demands of the metal, the weld WILL be a VALIDATED weld.

It may also be a rejected weld, if not done to 'Specification'.
Don't be confused here. All constraints on a manufacturing process
have the effect of 'Certification' simply that it was performed as prescribed.

The only true measurement falls under the heading of Validation.
This is why my employer often has to supply a part for destructive evaluation.

Another non-destructive method works but it's non-transferable so to speak.
In other words, it's like non-backed currency, it's only good if it's accepted.

I use it all the Time!
Joe welded it, it's good you can stake your life on it.
Bill welded it, it's as good as Joe's work on a good day, but then there's days.
Fred, Sam, Jake, and Buster welded it, and they all have certs,
but it boggles my mind how they got them.

I've been cutting thru all kinds of welds, by scores of welders for decades.
I've leaned far more by doing this than by welding, or reading about welding
or even listening to the welders.

When a special machine just built dunt quite cut the mustard, it's back for mods.
I have to saw, grind, or mill thru areas never intended to see the light of day again.
In shops I stayed for years and years, I could tell you who welded it..... easilly as if
the welder had signed it.

So again the science is more the Man than the data, the information, the ducumentation
the prescription. It's always the Man and it always will be, no matter the technology.

For BF:

I think I know what you mean but perhaps the use of "critical" was a (sort of) "slip of the tongue" (as it were).

If all or many welds were critical and there were various levels and types of "inspections" it seems to follow that there may be several levels of "critical".

Many welds not only require that the welder be "qualified" to weld as required but his "ticket" must be current and the weld identified as being "his" - by stamping his "number" on it.

X-rayed welds and testing to destruction on a fixed and random period (by an external/client inspector) can all happen.

Being "called in" for a re-test or withdrawal of "ticket" can be the loss of your livelihood - and it soon "gets around" too.

I agree with Old Hat 110%.

Good quality welding is perhaps as much or more a true manual art as well as a machining operation

Black Forest
11-23-2014, 04:02 AM
No slip of the tongue OLD Stiffie. Personal preference for a certain way of running a bead are not allowed in some welding situations. The weave pattern is specified and must be used by the weldor. That is all I am saying, nothing more. As to some weldors yes the way they run a bead is absolutely an art form. I have seen some beads that I would like to have a picture of it hanging in my office. They have the manual dexterity to lay down works of art. But they still have to follow the book sometimes because of call outs.

oldtiffie
11-23-2014, 04:56 AM
Exactly BF.

The call0out will define the fixed and optional components of the procedure.

Non-compliance is a real "fault" whereas opting for an allowable component of the procedure is quite OK.

This sort of thing is really a way of saying that conformance with a fixed procedure or group of approved elements will see the out-come meets the end requirements.

The alternative is allowing the operator to use elements of his choice to achieve a conforming outcome by specifying the performance outcome but not the way of achieving it.

danlb
11-23-2014, 02:45 PM
This sort of thing is really a way of saying that conformance with a fixed procedure or group of approved elements will see the out-come meets the end requirements.

The alternative is allowing the operator to use elements of his choice to achieve a conforming outcome by specifying the performance outcome but not the way of achieving it.

I agree with oldtiffie.

Why gamble on the outcome when there is a known combination of process + materials that is known to work properly? The specific case here (welding) does not lend itself to testing the "performance outcome" in most cases. You CAN xray, but that does not tell you of the stresses that are trapped within. It won't tell you if it's too brittle. You can do destructive testing, but that just means that you have to do it all over again with no assurance that the welder will use the exact same process; remember, they are settings of his choice at the time.


If a welder chooses poorly when he uses "elements of his choice to achieve a conforming outcome" you may have hundreds of thousands of dollars in waste and rework. You may have bridges (cough: Oakland) that take millions of dollars to fix. You may have a recall years later when wheels start to fall off cars.

Dan

Toolguy
11-23-2014, 03:00 PM
They use robots to weld cars now. That helps with consistency.

Old Hat
11-23-2014, 03:42 PM
It's also an obsenity!
It's flipp;n hideous.

Robots are a refection of mankind's errogance...........
which is validated by the displaced humans and their collective plight.

oldtiffie
11-23-2014, 07:04 PM
For a real "eye-opener" have an otherwise "good" weld cut and polished/sanded and etched in a cross section of the weld and see how the etching shows the metal structure changes at the heat -affected zone (HAZ)!! - first by eye/visual and then by magnification of it.

X-ray inspection images are a real eye-opener in the weld/HAZ area as well.

boslab
11-24-2014, 01:48 AM
+1 on the etch a weld, it's not difficult to do, welds are not all that they look, well if you consider it they are in fact little castings, long thin castings that may, or may not actually join two other bits together, two bits of steel welded together don't always make one bigger bit of steel!
Sometimes nuts and bolts would be better if your welding skills aren't up to it, and it's a critical thing that someone may have to depend on and it's failure could do harm
Mark

Black Forest
11-24-2014, 02:10 PM
It's also an obsenity!
It's flipp;n hideous.

Robots are a refection of mankind's errogance...........
which is validated by the displaced humans and their collective plight.

That is so out there it is funny! Look at what the human has done in the car industry as far as the auto workers union. They have done it to themselves. Give me a robot any day if it can do the job. It is like I tell people about my dogs on my ranch. One good dog is worth three cowboys! The dog only eats once a day. It wants to work everyday. It doesn't go to the saloons. No insurance. No fake sick days. Yeah, give me a dog anyday!!!!!

danlb
11-24-2014, 02:26 PM
It's also an obsenity!
It's flipp;n hideous.

Robots are a refection of mankind's errogance...........
which is validated by the displaced humans and their collective plight.

At what point do you start to object to this obscene automation?

Is it the robot that welds the car panels together, getting into angles that are difficult for humans to reach?

Or the one that runs a paint gun around a car?

Or the high speed video camera on the assembly line that triggers a puff of air to push an oddly formed cookie off the assembly line?

How about the series of cams, belts and gears that fill and cap the bottle of beer at your local brewery?

In all those cases, a huge cadre of humans could do the job. They may or may not do as well as their mechanical counterparts.

One thing is certain; a robot has an even more rigid mind set for machining than I have. :)

Dan

Old Hat
11-24-2014, 02:26 PM
Robots don't buy I-fones.
Robots don't buy Buicks.
Robots don't buy Groceries.

Brilliant hey.

danlb
11-24-2014, 02:28 PM
LOL. Robots build Fords. The robot's owners (and builders and operators) buy iphones and groceries.


yep, brilliant.

RichR
11-24-2014, 09:15 PM
Robots don't buy I-fones.
Robots don't buy Buicks.
Robots don't buy Groceries.

Brilliant hey.

Irrelevant. Robots don't get paid a salary and therefore have no disposable income.

PStechPaul
11-24-2014, 10:25 PM
We welcomed the technological age and envisioned having machines do all the work (especially that which was dangerous, strenuous, tedious, and boring), so that we might no longer be slaves to our work and be able to enjoy life. But capitalism can work only with continued growth and expansion, and we have become accustomed to ever more larger and more expensive houses, cars, and entertainment gadgets, so that now most families have two wage earners, and yet people go heavily into debt or even lose it all because they live paycheck-to-paycheck. What is needed now is not more jobs (which ain't gonna happen anyway), but alternate lifestyles that reduce resource consumption and promote cooperation and sharing. We have become slaves to our technology and a flawed, materialistic, "American Dream" that is no longer sustainable.

bborr01
11-24-2014, 10:54 PM
Robots don't buy I-fones.
Robots don't buy Buicks.
Robots don't buy Groceries.

Brilliant hey.

What do you even need a car for? You could always ride a horse or walk. What are you smoking dude?

Brian

oldtiffie
11-25-2014, 01:44 AM
For a real "eye-opener" have an otherwise "good" weld cut and polished/sanded and etched in a cross section of the weld and see how the etching shows the metal structure changes at the heat -affected zone (HAZ)!! - first by eye/visual and then by magnification of it.

X-ray inspection images are a real eye-opener in the weld/HAZ area as well.

Here is an addition to my previous post above:

Images of "Welding Inspections":
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=welding+inspection&biw=1920&bih=883&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Tx50VJewBtOB8QWgqYHgCw&ved=0CDoQsAQ

Wikipedia's "take" on some of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weld_quality_assurance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welding_defect

Welding Inspection Certificate:
https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=welding+inspection+certificate&revid=645874233

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=welding+inspection+certificate&sa=X&biw=1920&bih=883&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=ySN0VK2TK4uB8QXGm4LwCw&ved=0CDgQsAQ

And (I didn't mention it before - forgot) - the "bend test";
https://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=welding+bend+test&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4IRFC_enAU360AU360&q=welding+bend+test&gs_l=hp..0.0l4j0i22i30.0.0.0.19922...........0.PnC NbXmHLcg

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=welding+bend+test&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4IRFC_enAU360AU360&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ZSR0VMq3ENLx8gXyloCwDA&ved=0CB4QsAQ&biw=1920&bih=883

So - if you have an "important" weld job in your shop - do you have the required "Qualification Ticket" - or not - and if not - why not -and "test certification"?

etc.

Old Hat
11-25-2014, 02:58 AM
I see my thread picked up a few Barnacels today.
My point; dimwits is, if technology surplants workers.
The worker's link in the economy is broken.

"Technocracy" like in the short from the 1920s is a pipe-dream.
Maybe that's the stuff be'n smoked.

Human culture always fails, when struggle out of necessity diminishes.

Old Hat
11-25-2014, 03:12 AM
Incidently, there's a drill in a chuck, in the spindle, of a bar in a factory tonight.
On the end of the drill is a gutted case of a RTD sencor I drilled from the bore of a bearing
off of some ship with a 28" propeller shaft.

One can't realy find one of these by reading charts, and following protocall, and
probing the bearing with 26K worth of calibrated high-teck instrumentation.

One "feels out" where the hole was likely to end up drilled from the OD.
The day-man and the foreman only have to put a new one in and puddle it back shut.
Gut over structure rules again.

bborr01
11-25-2014, 09:04 AM
Barnacels? OK sure. Evidently you don't believe in using a spell checker either.

You didn't answer my question about driving a car vs. riding a horse. You do know that cars are basically automated horses, right?

Do you think that automation builds itself? I have spent the last several decades building automation. It leads to extreme increases in productivity. If we don't automate and other counties do, we will soon have no manufacturing jobs. Have you ever seen real automation or are you just referring to what you read in comic books?

Brian



I see my thread picked up a few Barnacels today.
My point; dimwits is, if technology surplants workers.
The worker's link in the economy is broken.

"Technocracy" like in the short from the 1920s is a pipe-dream.
Maybe that's the stuff be'n smoked.

Human culture always fails, when struggle out of necessity diminishes.

Old Hat
11-25-2014, 09:10 AM
I just got up. Feeling every bit as cheery as be~fits the season.
Since you only seem to like to play friskey, I'll stop back in later
when I'm feeling a little more confrontational.

Cheeri'O

flylo
11-25-2014, 09:44 AM
I see my thread picked up a few Barnacels today.
My point; dimwits is, if technology surplants workers.
The worker's link in the economy is broken.

"Technocracy" like in the short from the 1920s is a pipe-dream.
Maybe that's the stuff be'n smoked.

Human culture always fails, when struggle out of necessity diminishes.

I'll send you a dictionary free also just send your address. You'll enjoy it as it's low tech like you. Then your sermons to us "dimwits" as you call us can at least be read if not understood as you are so much smarter then us "dimwits" as you call us.

Old Hat
11-25-2014, 10:24 AM
I held the lead position in a team providing mechanical support to the R&D wing of a motion control company.
This was a good portion of the 80's. Many customers then were companies using rather dangerous
woodworking equipment. I was to respond as quickly as poss to calls and tellex's from start-ups in the field.
When the guys get home we get updated on various details about the install and start-up.
One tech desribed how many workers had less than ten digits still intact and functioning.

He was quite full of himself how we made the world better.
The other didn't say much till later. While we were discussing another job he finaly
told me he was beginning to dout the "mercy" side of the automation argument.
He said the brass at the company were crowing about how they can run the line now with 36 less workers.
It was about this time of year too. And it was varified, 36 workers out of a job. A few were
recituated or retired early, the rest were F**ked.

PS; it's amusing how spelling nazis complain about how they struggel to understand a post with
less than legal spelling... and go on to assault the post with a thurough line-by-line veto.

Black Forest
11-25-2014, 11:08 AM
My reply to the 36 workers losing their jobs. If they kept the 36 workers and went broke because they weren't competitive price wise how many more workers would have lost their jobs?

Old Hat are or were you in a Union?

Old Hat
11-25-2014, 11:13 AM
Both, apox 40% of career union, 60% non-union.
The sad truth is:
Thanks to the enconofacists & the corrupt union leadership.

We now have many unions self-destructing, and companies pretty much
free to conduct real effective safety training like I had,
or return to the days where dollar$ are more important than lives.

My contribution now is; convey what I was taught to the few who will listen.
What more can one do?
Cudoos to the companies that opperate safely without mandates
from government, unions, insurance weasels and such.

bborr01
11-25-2014, 01:35 PM
I nominate Old Hat for the Airsmith award. Birds of a feather.

Brian

flylo
11-25-2014, 02:40 PM
Airsmith award sound too cool. Airhead, Hotair, Oldair, Oldblow, Oldknow, too many choices come to mind, let's think on it. After all an award needs to be special.

bborr01
11-25-2014, 06:40 PM
A hundred years or so ago a toaster was considered automation. Get used to it or get left behind.

Brian

danlb
11-25-2014, 07:31 PM
Sadly, the one post Oldhat made that might have bolstered his case was too unreadable to comment on. I could not tell what part of the post was poor grammar, what was misspelled and what might have been nautical jargon that I was unfamiliar with. The post had something to do with a 28 inch shaft.

Dan

J. Randall
11-25-2014, 07:34 PM
I nominate Old Hat for the Airsmith award. Birds of a feather.

Brian

Maybe you should apply for the troll award.

oldtiffie
11-25-2014, 08:27 PM
I deliberately make an effort to distil the gist of what anyone and everyone here (and elsewhere) are trying to say - Old Hat and AirSmith too - as they thought they had something of interest to offer - and I think that they did/do.

I had no problem with either of them though I certainly did have a problem with the "Bully Boys" who as a crowd stuck the boots into AirSmith and seemingly some of the same (others too?) are trying to stick the boot into Old Hat with the safety in numbers of a mob. It was a disgraceful episode.

If there is any "editing" etc. as I see it, it is in the realm of George Bulliss - nobody else.

So, if you have a gripe of a bitch - take it up with George and/or do as I expect some do or are - ie PM or email George.

So far as I can see despite what some may see or regard themselves as, there are no Grand Juries ("Lynch mobs"?) here.

So - Old Hat - keep going as you are as I enjoy your posts as they are very contributable here in my opinion.

boslab
11-26-2014, 12:54 AM
I did sort of understand the 28" prop shaft thing, the only thing that comes to mind is that usually those good at "eyeballing" where to stick a hole are usually good at tiging up holes!! I might well fall in that group myself on occasion, BF recently admitted to it too, are we all closet hole pluggers, the old saying is measure twice cut once as opposed to a recent balls up of mine which was eyeball three times plug hole with tig twice to get the hole remotely where it should be!
Mark

Black Forest
11-26-2014, 01:37 AM
Human culture always fails, when struggle out of necessity diminishes.

We don't need no stinkin culture round here!

oldtiffie
11-26-2014, 01:57 AM
Hey BF - dat are I!!

It will surprise few if any that I have been assured quite often - one at least being in the staff of a Pathology laboratory - that I was derived from a ("nasty"??) culture in a Petri dish.

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=petri+dish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petri_dish

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=petri+dish&biw=1920&bih=883&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=gHh1VLfvDYTM8gXX-4CgDA&sqi=2&ved=0CEoQsAQ

So I have some credibility in claiming that I have a very diverse cultural back-ground.

Old Hat
11-26-2014, 03:03 AM
A hundred years or so ago a toaster was considered automation. Get used to it or get left behind.

Brian

I'm like'n one thing about aging, in particular.
Less static, not static on a radio.

Clearer vision regarding what I see, read, here, or observe casually instead of actively.
I can listen to, or read the text from, some overly stimulated ass, and appreciate his view point.
It can even maligne me, and It just falls flat. Nothing realy sparks jealousy or envie like when young.
I can chat with a stranger, and they seen familliar in no time.

A BS sPecialist has to realy put some polish on his best pitch to even hope to score.
I don't feel any real need to defend my position on anything, unless I just feel
like generating some impedence in my detractor's discertations.

Life is good.
Accept for a little thing I did today I've never done before.
I RAN A D@MN ARGON TANK ALL THE WAY EMPTY!
sPOILED WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PERFECT CLAD~JOB.

Black Forest
11-26-2014, 05:05 AM
I'm like'n one thing about aging, in particular.
Less static, not static on a radio.

Clearer vision regarding what I see, read, here, or observe casually instead of actively.
I can listen to, or read the text from, some overly stimulated ass, and appreciate his view point.
It can even maligne me, and It just falls flat. Nothing realy sparks jealousy or envie like when young.
I can chat with a stranger, and they seen familliar in no time.

A BS sPecialist has to realy put some polish on his best pitch to even hope to score.
I don't feel any real need to defend my position on anything, unless I just feel
like generating some impedence in my detractor's discertations.

Life is good.
Accept for a little thing I did today I've never done before.
I RAN A D@MN ARGON TANK ALL THE WAY EMPTY!
sPOILED WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PERFECT CLAD~JOB.


Don't feel bad, I didn't shut off the valve on my full argon tank last night. Went to weld this morning and no argon. At least I know I have a leak somewhere!

bborr01
11-26-2014, 08:25 AM
I'm not here to troll anyone. But when someone posts things that make no sense, I get a certain urge to respond.

Airsmith with his 1k watt generator that he was going to run his shop on instead of buying power from the power company so he could save money on power usage. Oh, his generator was special because he has reduced the exhaust outlet size to something like 5/32 of an inch so it would be super efficient.

Same goes for wanting to turn back the hands of time a hundred years or so. Old hat would have fit right in with the horse and buggy crowd who swore they would never own a car. Maybe he would prefer to go all the way back to the stone age and use a club to kill his dinner.

The title of this thread speaks to effective machining practices. CNC's are for sure automated manual machining. Does old hat think that we should do away with cnc machines because manual machines always got the job done before we had cnc's? I won't expect an answer from him because he has not answered any of my questions yet.

Thee are many things from the past that I find interesting and quaint. But you can't turn back the hands of time.

Brian

danlb
11-26-2014, 10:33 AM
Accept for a little thing I did today I've never done before.
I RAN A D@MN ARGON TANK ALL THE WAY EMPTY!
sPOILED WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PERFECT CLAD~JOB.

You know... there is a formula that would have told you how much welding time you had left. :)

Dan

bborr01
11-26-2014, 10:36 AM
Where is that like button that was talked about a while back?

Brian


You know... there is a formula that would have told you how much welding time you had left. :)

Dan

Old Hat
11-26-2014, 10:41 AM
Does old hat think that we should do away with cnc machines because manual machines always got the job done before we had cnc's? I won't expect an answer from him because he has not answered any of my questions yet.

Brian
I love my Misubishi, and The Heidenhain TNC530, I would never want to do away with them, Heavens No.
And go back to the days of turn-tabling and sine-plating everything that ain't in a 3-planed cube.

But with every gain there is a loss, and every loss a gain.
I can accell on CNC or an old G&L Morse cross draw Bar with equall ease.
I can also recognise when a form of technolgy has had the effect of cutting off
all the rungs below us on the ladder. So when the ladder takes us to a shakey spot.........
........ all we can do is fall. Just like has happened time after time back ages and ages.

A Horse, tremendous and noble creature that he is, has a flaw. He can be worked to death.
Now a Mule, there is a smart creature! He will tell YOU when enuff is enuff in no uncetain terms.
http://freefromhellblog.com.s144903.gridserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/mule21.jpg
Think of me as a Mule, and I'll think of you as an @ss as well, and call it a deal.

=============================
The formula only works if ............
I simply got realy into it, and caried away.:(

bborr01
11-26-2014, 11:15 AM
But I thought that you hated automation. Don't you think that cnc's are just automated manual machines? You can't have it both ways.

Brian


I love my Misubishi, and The Heidenhain TNC530, I would never want to do away with them, Heavens No.
And go back to the days of turn-tabling and sine-plating everything that ain't in a 3-planed cube.

But with every gain there is a loss, and every loss a gain.
I can accell on CNC or an old G&L Morse cross draw Bar with equall ease.
I can also recognise when a form of technolgy has had the effect of cutting off
all the rungs below us on the ladder. So when the ladder takes us to a shakey spot.........
........ all we can do is fall. Just like has happened time after time back ages and ages.

A Horse, tremendous and noble creature that he is, has a flaw. He can be worked to death.
Now a Mule, there is a smart creature! He will tell YOU when enuff is enuff in no uncetain terms.
http://freefromhellblog.com.s144903.gridserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/mule21.jpg
Think of me as a Mule, and I'll think of you as an @ss as well, and call it a deal.

=============================
The formula only works if ............
I simply got realy into it, and caried away.:(

Black Forest
11-26-2014, 11:44 AM
I love my Misubishi, and The Heidenhain TNC530, I would never want to do away with them, Heavens No.
And go back to the days of turn-tabling and sine-plating everything that ain't in a 3-planed cube.

But with every gain there is a loss, and every loss a gain.
I can accell on CNC or an old G&L Morse cross draw Bar with equall ease.
I can also recognise when a form of technolgy has had the effect of cutting off
all the rungs below us on the ladder. So when the ladder takes us to a shakey spot.........
........ all we can do is fall. Just like has happened time after time back ages and ages.

A Horse, tremendous and noble creature that he is, has a flaw. He can be worked to death.
Now a Mule, there is a smart creature! He will tell YOU when enuff is enuff in no uncetain terms.
http://freefromhellblog.com.s144903.gridserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/mule21.jpg
Think of me as a Mule, and I'll think of you as an @ss as well, and call it a deal.

=============================
The formula only works if ............
I simply got realy into it, and caried away.:(

Have you actually worked with a mule or seen one worked?

bborr01
11-26-2014, 12:09 PM
He probably owns one so he doesn't have to use an automated rototiller to till his garden.

Brian


Have you actually worked with a mule or seen one worked?

Peter N
11-26-2014, 01:33 PM
http://www.admould.co.uk/OddDocs/Automation.jpg

:):):)

Old Hat
11-26-2014, 01:51 PM
Have you actually worked with a mule or seen one worked?

When little, the last farm in the area, had a Mule.
Was good with kids and you could ride him.
I can't remember if he actually did anything.

Other than terrified some-one who broke into their barn.

Black Forest
11-26-2014, 02:16 PM
When little, the last farm in the area, had a Mule.
Was good with kids and you could ride him.
I can't remember if he actually did anything.

Other than terrified some-one who broke into their barn.

I didn't think you had any experience with mules! If you did actually know anything about them you would not have maligned them with yourself.!

Old Hat
11-26-2014, 02:38 PM
I thought I just expailed that.
I was jist a yitto boy!

J. Randall
11-26-2014, 09:48 PM
I'm not here to troll anyone. But when someone posts things that make no sense, I get a certain urge to respond.

Airsmith with his 1k watt generator that he was going to run his shop on instead of buying power from the power company so he could save money on power usage. Oh, his generator was special because he has reduced the exhaust outlet size to something like 5/32 of an inch so it would be super efficient.

Same goes for wanting to turn back the hands of time a hundred years or so. Old hat would have fit right in with the horse and buggy crowd who swore they would never own a car. Maybe he would prefer to go all the way back to the stone age and use a club to kill his dinner.

The title of this thread speaks to effective machining practices. CNC's are for sure automated manual machining. Does old hat think that we should do away with cnc machines because manual machines always got the job done before we had cnc's? I won't expect an answer from him because he has not answered any of my questions yet.

Thee are many things from the past that I find interesting and quaint. But you can't turn back the hands of time.

Brian

You are right, and I apologize for that, it was not the correct term. After thinking on it for awhile, I think I would nominate you for the nitpicker award. It is almost like you take a dislike to someone, or their style of posting and then you just won't leave it alone. Then a few others pile on and that seems to please you. It would be a lot more pleasant here if you could come to the fact that you are not going to change these people, I like to read a good argument based on facts as well as the next guy. When you or anyone starts with the ad hominem attacks it just rubs me the wrong way. Airsmith was a character and could not hold his temper, but I felt sorry for him more than anything.
James

Old Hat
11-27-2014, 01:49 AM
My oldest Cat just finished the race.
He turned up in 2002, and grew up with our last daughter.
He'll be missed.
I asked the question then of the others, "so who's Boss now?"
It was a dumb question, and you shoulda seen the glare I got from the new Boss.
I swear some of them understand english.;)