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View Full Version : SpaceClaim vs. Alibre/GeoMagic



Black Forest
12-22-2014, 12:09 PM
I have been using SpaceClaim for about a week now and I love it. Direct solid modeling is so much easier. On Sir John's recommendation I tried DesignSpark which is the toned down free version of SpaceClaim. It is quite limited and constraining was not to my liking. SpaceClaim on the other hand is fantastic. You don't have to be a CAD jockey to use it and it is almost better if you don't have a big parametric CAD background because you have to think in a different manner to use SpaceClaim.

For what I do SpaceClaim at this point seems much more user friendly than Alibre. I don't know yet what it costs because I am using a trial version but it will definitely be a front runner in my quest for a better solution than Alibre.

dp
12-22-2014, 01:33 PM
I really dislike sites that offer a product ask you to show how deep your pockets are before they'll give you a price. That is the extent of my product review.

Black Forest
12-22-2014, 02:12 PM
I really dislike sites that offer a product ask you to show how deep your pockets are before they'll give you a price. That is the extent of my product review.

I don't quite understand you point.

I don't know what it costs because I didn't ask. If I need to know I could make a phone call and have an answer in minutes.

brian Rupnow
12-22-2014, 03:25 PM
BlackForest--Best of luck with the 3D cad. Once you catch onto it, it's hard to think of ever going back to 2D.---Brian

MrSleepy
12-22-2014, 03:48 PM
DesignSpark is for PCBs.... Under the RS Components umbrella.

DesignSpark is more accurately a slightly obfuscated, reduced version of EasyPC ...and is written by WestDev (Number One Systems)... (Pulsonix is their high end product).

Its has nothing to do with SpaceClaim , apart from being RS Components related.

Rob

aolney
12-22-2014, 03:52 PM
Blackforest -

I have been using Keycreator ( formerly Cadkey ) for 25 years. It is another capable direct, no history, 3d modeler that suits how I design. Lots of modeling tools including surfaces, wire frame, motion simulation( just new ) and add ons for machining etc.

Andy Olney

dp
12-22-2014, 04:20 PM
I don't quite understand you point.

I don't know what it costs because I didn't ask. If I need to know I could make a phone call and have an answer in minutes.

I visited the site, tried to check the price and also visited the download page. Both had forms to fill in that asked for information they have no need to know. If I had walked into a retailer's store and was told learning the price of goods was dependent upon my filling in that same form I'd walk out after firing a finely formed imprecation as a Parthian shot.

I worked in the e-commerce industry for decades prior to retiring and have never agreed that we needed to be rude to people before they were our customers. Mine was a minority position, of course. There are already well-understood reasons for not being rude to customers.

Like you I don't know what it costs so I have no interest in a trial version. If anyone does get a price it would be interesting to compare quotes here to see if there is variation.

Background info: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/24/ramasastry.website.prices/

Black Forest
12-22-2014, 04:54 PM
DesignSpark is for PCBs.... Under the RS Components umbrella.

DesignSpark is more accurately a slightly obfuscated, reduced version of EasyPC ...and is written by WestDev (Number One Systems)... (Pulsonix is their high end product).

Its has nothing to do with SpaceClaim , apart from being RS Components related.

Rob

Design Spark mechanical is a slimmed down version of SpaceClaim. It is stated on the Design spark website.

MrSleepy
12-22-2014, 06:05 PM
Design Spark mechanical is a slimmed down version of SpaceClaim. It is stated on the Design spark website.

Sorry Bruce .... youre right..

RS started off with just the pcb package (http://www.rs-online.com/designspark/electronics/eng/page/designspark-pcb-home-page) ..but now seem to have added the mechanical spaceclaim derived mech package under the Design Spark umbrella.

When RS paid NumberOne for the rights to give away Design Spark - PCB (EasyPC)... It angered the EasyPC users who pay for the product...especially as RS gives the full library package away...but EasyPC users have to pay for them. NumberOne have also stopped EasyPC users from opening Design Spark - PCB files aswell as librarys. Its always a bone of contention on the No1 forum (http://www.numberone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=936).

Rob

KJ1I
12-22-2014, 07:06 PM
SpaceClaim list price is $4000

PStechPaul
12-22-2014, 07:24 PM
According to one source, the list price for SpaceClaim is $2445:

http://cad-software.findthebest-sw.com/q/25/7188/How-much-does-the-SpaceClaim-Engineer-CAD-Software-by-SpaceClaim-Corporation-cost-for-a-single-license

It is less than AutoCAD (about $4000) but much more than TurboCAD, which I use (about $500). I use Mentor Graphics PADS suite for my PCB designs. I did not know that EasyPC was considered a professional package. The free DesignSpark package looks interesting. Another low cost PCB design package is DipTrace (http://www.diptrace.com/). It's $895 for the full package and $75 for the starter.

Easy-PC is 447 GBP for the unlimited version and it seems that you must pay extra for the autorouters and libraries:

http://numberone.com/prices.asp

MrSleepy
12-23-2014, 05:34 AM
I did not know that EasyPC was considered a professional package.


It used to be .. It goes back to about 1989 .. I started using it at home in 1992 and it was a top DOS package (up with Racal Redec- now Zuken) until a few years after West Dev bought NumberOne. .... but West Dev also own Pulsonix , and it is their high tier product now. EasyPC seems to be a test bed for code for Pulsonix and latterly DesignSpark PCB. EasyPC is still updated annually , but the feature addition has slowed over the last 4 years.

I keep a working EasyPC v15 going for legacy boards...but two years ago I moved on to Eagle. Its difficult to fileshare with EasyPC on projects , and thanks to DesignSpark PCBs arrival ,its getting harder as No1 will not release any info on the filesystem they use on EasyPC for translators etc, and No1 are not interested in creating a community as Eagle and others have done.

Rob.

J Tiers
12-23-2014, 08:29 AM
B-F..... Ralf will be grumpy with you.......

I never find Alibre/Geomagic to be unfriendly, but I am still using the 2012 version, and need to upgrade to the current one. Maybe the newer ones are less so?

I can produce a good model very quickly. As with any program, you really need to use it for a while fairly regularly, after which it becomes a lot easier, other than the usual few stupid things that EVERY CAD package has.

I feel as you do about Solidworks, but that is because I don't use it very much, and have had zero formal training on it.

MarkStephen
12-23-2014, 08:45 AM
Parametric 3D CAD, while hard, isn't $2000 - $4000 hard. ;) Maybe I'm just spoiled and probably biased because I use Linux (sense ~ '98) and none of those packages are available for my OS. I would be hard pressed to buy any of them with a parametric CAD program like FreeCAD (http://www.freecadweb.org) being as good as it is these days. If I was running a business, that would be a different story (maybe) but for home use, it's just been more economic to learn parametric modeling skills, (not that hard), than throw a bunch of money at a CAD package when I really haven't even come close to needing a commercial offering. That being said, if I was going to buy a 3D CAD package, I would be looking real hard at SpaceClaim. At least it isn't some crap offering from Autodesk, so that's a BIG plus.

Black Forest
12-23-2014, 11:37 AM
Parametric 3D CAD, while hard, isn't $2000 - $4000 hard. ;) Maybe I'm just spoiled and probably biased because I use Linux (sense ~ '98) and none of those packages are available for my OS. I would be hard pressed to buy any of them with a parametric CAD program like FreeCAD (http://www.freecadweb.org) being as good as it is these days. If I was running a business, that would be a different story (maybe) but for home use, it's just been more economic to learn parametric modeling skills, (not that hard), than throw a bunch of money at a CAD package when I really haven't even come close to needing a commercial offering. That being said, if I was going to buy a 3D CAD package, I would be looking real hard at SpaceClaim. At least it isn't some crap offering from Autodesk, so that's a BIG plus.

Was there a point to this post? I have been using Alibre Expert for a few years now. Although no expert I get done what I need to. My problem isn't with parametric 3D CAD programs it is with the management of the company that owns Alibre/GeoMagic. That company is 3DSystems and they are in the 3D printer business. They at this point are not following through on even just fixing the bugs in Alibre. I don't want to rant on the company just say I will not tolerate the management tactics when I pay every year my maintenance and get nothing for my money. So I am looking for an alternative CAD solution. SpaceClaim is one of the contenders. It is not a true parametric program and so it has to be approached in a different mind set. So far I am really liking the program.

The other contender is http://www.zwsoft.com/ It is a much better package than Alibre. So far I have found it to have much fewer bugs. It is a Chinese company and has been around for quite some time.

brian Rupnow
12-23-2014, 11:58 AM
I know a number of designers who use Autocad Inventor, and they are very pleased with it. I will agree, Mechanical Desktop from Autodesk left a lot to be desired, but I don't hear much bad-mouthing about Inventor.---Brian

J Tiers
12-23-2014, 08:47 PM
Inventor is very nice. have not actually used it, but have seen it used, and played with it a little. I like it, but cheap it ain't.

alanganes
12-23-2014, 09:07 PM
I worked for a place that did all of their mechanical design with Inventor. I was even given one of the spare seats left over when one of the ME's left and was not replaced, used it for over a year on and off. It's a really capable tool, but like Solidworks is a sophisticated tool that takes some time to get good at and practice to stay in form.

Indeed, it's not cheap. Obviously not aimed at the "home shop guy" market. :)

I sort of got spoiled by having it, and when I no longer did is when I ended up with Alibre. It does most of what Inventor does and was actually affordable for many of us home use guys, but that seems to be fading away unfortunately.

Paul Alciatore
12-23-2014, 09:30 PM
BUT WHY do they waste your time by making you ask? I ABSOLUTELY HATE SALES TACTICS LIKE THAT. And I do NOT do business with such companies like that. If it takes more than two clicks to find the price, I CAN NOT AFFORD IT, even if it only costs $0.01.

I did find the price for those who are still interested:

SpaceClaim Engineer: $2445.00, MSRP for one seat. Time limits??

Student version: $49.95 for one year. Again time limits are not known.

Quite a range. And the full price is not completely out of line with some other products so why hide it? I will never do business with them because they are deceptive.




I don't quite understand you point.

I don't know what it costs because I didn't ask. If I need to know I could make a phone call and have an answer in minutes.

J Tiers
12-23-2014, 10:36 PM
They evidently have the "new model" of software pricing well in hand....

That is the "per year" costing. You may pay them thousands, and have lots of stuff in their system, but it's all out the window unless you pay and pay again, every year.

I Vastly prefer the "purchase of permanent license" with the opportunity to pay annual maintenance to receive upgrades and on-going support. The maintenance is generally reasonable, at least compared to some of the "per year" costings. And if you drop off maintenance, you are allowed to remain static at the point you were. The work you have done does not go up in smoke, you can still access it, you just get nothing new, and no support.

That's reasonable, especially compared to the annual blackmail of the basic "per year" system..... Whatcha willing to pay to keep "your" IP and data, eh? How much can we squeeze you for to allow you to access it?

dp
12-24-2014, 12:33 AM
They evidently have the "new model" of software pricing well in hand....

That is the "per year" costing. You may pay them thousands, and have lots of stuff in their system, but it's all out the window unless you pay and pay again, every year.

That's the Adobe data jail model. Worse than a cell phone contract.

Black Forest
12-24-2014, 03:53 AM
I checked to find out what the deal is on SpaceClaim licensing. There are two options. You can buy a yearly renting type of license for less money or a buying type for more money. If buying the license you have to buy for the first year maintenance.

Simulation software costs additional money at about the same price as the modeling software.

For me if buying it will cost me about $4000.00 for the first year and then $1000.00 dollars a year for maintenance if I continue with maintenance. This is without the simulation software.
If I go with the simulation also it will cost me $8000,00 the first year.

Old Hat
12-24-2014, 03:58 AM
I can't keep up to You.
You're a Texan, but live in Germany, and work in Metric but spend Dollars?

Black Forest
12-24-2014, 04:08 AM
I can't keep up to You.
You're a Texan, but live in Germany, and work in Metric but spend Dollars?

When you say it like that it does sound a bit off doesn't it!

Actually I listed it in dollars as this is a Global community and US dollars are the Global trading currency mostly. Many members might have to look up the exchange rate of Euros to dollars. I was just trying to be helpful.

J Tiers
12-24-2014, 08:01 AM
"Data jail"..... I like the term, even if it might alternately be called "Data extortion".



For me if buying it will cost me about $4000.00 for the first year and then $1000.00 dollars a year for maintenance if I continue with maintenance.

That's a fairly high percentage for maintenance, it is often lower, but that 25% is not unknown.

At least they offer you the bought license option. Some do not.

loose nut
12-24-2014, 10:01 AM
They evidently have the "new model" of software pricing well in hand....



When dealing with legalized theft like this do any of you guys having a problem understanding why so many people pirate software.

brian Rupnow
12-24-2014, 10:25 AM
The only way to deal with this "legalized theft" is to have a business against which you can right off the expense. For guys who only want to use it for a home workshop kind of thing, the pricing for most "big" 3D packages like Solidworks, Inventor, and SolidEdge are just insane.---Brian

Black Forest
12-24-2014, 10:34 AM
Brian, if it is not being too invasive how much does maintenance cost a year for SW?

brian Rupnow
12-24-2014, 10:55 AM
Around $1800 a year including the 13% federal tax. There is a bit of a catch to this though. As long as you pay the yearly fee, you get free tech support, and each year you get an upgrade to the "new" version of Solidworks. If you let your subscription lapse, then you can continue to use whatever your current version is forever without the yearly upgrade fee. BUT--You no longer get tech support. Solidworks is not upwardly compatible.--What does that mean?--Well, for instance, I haven't upgraded since 2012. My Solidworks works fine, but I can not open Solidworks files created in 2013, 2014, nor any time after 2012. And the big design houses who sometimes farm work out to me can not save their new versions of Solidworks to an earlier year. This basically forces me to pay the yearly upgrade/maintainance fee if I have any hope of working for the big design houses. Also, all of the big components houses are given free upgrades of Solidworks every year, and automatically upgrade the components on their websites to the newest version of Solidworks. That means I can no longer go to a manufacturer and download their current parts such as bearings, cylinders, etcetera, as Solidworks files because I can no longer open them.

J Tiers
12-24-2014, 03:55 PM
Many offer the parts as .stp files as well as SWX files, but those have all the sub-part relationships stripped out, they are only a "part cloud" with no constraints.

Another goodie with Solidworks is that it is non-transferable.... you cannot sell the license to anyone else when you no longer need it, it terminates with you. Not all packages do that, but it's becoming much more common.

loose nut
12-24-2014, 07:33 PM
Around $1800 a year including the 13% federal tax. There is a bit of a catch to this though. As long as you pay the yearly fee, you get free tech support, and each year you get an upgrade to the "new" version of Solidworks. If you let your subscription lapse, then you can continue to use whatever your current version is forever without the yearly upgrade fee. BUT--You no longer get tech support. Solidworks is not upwardly compatible.--What does that mean?--Well, for instance, I haven't upgraded since 2012. My Solidworks works fine, but I can not open Solidworks files created in 2013, 2014, nor any time after 2012. And the big design houses who sometimes farm work out to me can not save their new versions of Solidworks to an earlier year. This basically forces me to pay the yearly upgrade/maintainance fee if I have any hope of working for the big design houses. Also, all of the big components houses are given free upgrades of Solidworks every year, and automatically upgrade the components on their websites to the newest version of Solidworks. That means I can no longer go to a manufacturer and download their current parts such as bearings, cylinders, etcetera, as Solidworks files because I can no longer open them.

Didn't you retire. Do you really need the service and upgrades anymore.

mayfieldtm
12-24-2014, 08:12 PM
Almost FREE!!
Solid-Edge, is a very expensive commercial program that I've used for years.
My boss would pay around $6000 a year for 2 licenses.

If your a student it's FREE!
They are very, very lenient on what a student is.
I'm taking one ($25) class at a local Community College. That's good enough for them.

It is the full blown version with one restriction... Any files your create, can only be used by you.
Someone on another computer can not open them.
That's OK with me. I'll design a part or assembly and print out a 2D drawing (fully dimensioned) for my own use.
Or for another Machinist to make a part from.

I'm told that all print-outs have "Student Version", like a water mark on them, but, I've never seen it.

The learning curve is not that bad. I've seen newbies catch on rather quickly for the basic stuff. Their Tutorials are very good.

I can turn out very complex parts in a manner of minutes. (I've had too much practice) What I like is being able to change the parts dimensions very quickly without redrawing everything. I find that the Older and Crankier I get, the more mistakes I have to correct.

Tom M.

oldtiffie
12-24-2014, 09:30 PM
According to one source, the list price for SpaceClaim is $2445:

http://cad-software.findthebest-sw.com/q/25/7188/How-much-does-the-SpaceClaim-Engineer-CAD-Software-by-SpaceClaim-Corporation-cost-for-a-single-license

It is less than AutoCAD (about $4000) but much more than TurboCAD, which I use (about $500). I use Mentor Graphics PADS suite for my PCB designs. I did not know that EasyPC was considered a professional package. The free DesignSpark package looks interesting. Another low cost PCB design package is DipTrace (http://www.diptrace.com/). It's $895 for the full package and $75 for the starter.

Easy-PC is 447 GBP for the unlimited version and it seems that you must pay extra for the autorouters and libraries:

http://numberone.com/prices.asp

I used to have AutoCAD but gave it away years ago as I just could not afford the initial costs, updates (mandatory) and new learning required for updates and changed original files etc.

I am retired now and the above concerns are more relevant than ever.

I have had TurboCad for quite a few years but have not used it in quite a few years to and so I need to re-learn it and update myself.

But I have always been pretty good with a sketch pad and a good calculator as my work now is more "occasional" and very simple and I can visualise things mentally quite well - always have been able to.

PStechPaul
12-24-2014, 11:00 PM
I use version 15 and it's very capable. Depending on the version you have, you might want to upgrade to a later edition, but if your version is old it may be cheaper to buy a complete newer version. I have dealt with the vendor several times and they are very good:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TurboCAD-Pro-19-Platinum-Edition-Professional-2D-3D-CAD-Software-Turbo-CAD-/381068104101

The platinum version includes the mechanical and architectural package.

oldtiffie
12-24-2014, 11:33 PM
I have IMSI Turbo CAD DesignCAD 3D MAX ver 19 which while it has some limitations and short-comings (which are easy to get used to and work-around) is quite versatile and capable.

I used to mainly construct a drawing to the stage I needed so as to get linear and angular sizes instead of using a good calculator - or use the calculator to verify the CAD - and/or vice-versa.

But as others have said CAD needs regular use to keep the skills required up to date.

oldtiffie
12-25-2014, 02:33 AM
Here is thelatest on IMSI TurboCAD:

http://www.turbocad.co.uk/windows-upgrades/turbocad-21-pro-platinum-upgrade

http://www.turbocad.co.uk/windows-upgrades

http://www.turbocad.co.uk/?tr1=AQ_AU_NZ_PP_GO_SE_TC_BRAND&gclid=CLSb8d_V4MICFYOWvQodTG0Awg

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=imsi+turbocad

Black Forest
12-25-2014, 04:44 AM
Oldtiffie you slipped in an earlier post in this thread. Do any of you know what he did? I was shocked when I read it.

oldtiffie
12-25-2014, 06:48 AM
Of course I slipped - and why wouldn't I at my age (78 in 3 weeks)?

So I am well and truly on the down-hill slippery slope to perdition - if there is one - which I doubt (and hope?).

Read on:

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=perdition

Black Forest
12-25-2014, 08:37 AM
Of course I slipped - and why wouldn't I at my age (78 in 3 weeks)?

So I am well and truly on the down-hill slippery slope to perdition - if there is one - which I doubt (and hope?).

Read on:

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=perdition

But do you know the slip I am referring to? It was a major slip I might add!

brian Rupnow
12-25-2014, 09:03 AM
Loose Nut--I am "semi-retired". That means I still like to work about 3 months out of the year. I have many small companies who don't have any engineering offices at all, and in a situation like that, my out of date Solidworks is just fine, as I don't have to interface with any newer versions.---Brian

loose nut
12-25-2014, 10:01 AM
But do you know the slip I am referring to? It was a major slip I might add!

Since no one else picked it up or cares to point it out, please enlighten us.

Black Forest
12-25-2014, 10:55 AM
I used to have AutoCAD but gave it away years ago.

He gave it away.......Didn't you all read that......HE GAVE IT AWAY....all these years he has been "binning" everything. I don't remember exactly but when asked why he didn't give it away he had some reason why he never gives anything away.

oldtiffie
12-25-2014, 07:14 PM
BF.

In the Australian vernacular, to "give something away" means - amongst other things - to stop doing or using it or something.

In that sense whether it is kept or "binned" is another part of the same circumstance.

For what its worth and given that your post seemed to warrant a response from me, and also in the context of the discussion in this thread,my AutoCAD books and disks etc. WERE "binned" as per the terms of my licence for them, I did not own them (AutoDESK did) so I could neither sell nor give them away and as I don't think I could return them to Autodesk -so in accordance with all of the above and in the spirit and intent of the licence and my feeling that I had "done the right thing" I destroyed and then disposed of them correctly.

I hope this response meets your requirement of a suitable response in this matter from me.

J Tiers
12-26-2014, 06:57 PM
That has not always been the AutoCad requirement..... They have had a transferable license in the past, I'd have the check the most current one I have to see if it is still the case.

A licensed product does not have to mean it cannot be transferred.

On the other hand, it IS for Solidworks, the license is non-transferable.

And I have had 3rd party application software that you would, per the license, have had to buy it again if you upgraded to a new computer, or even if the HDD crashed and you had to install a new HDD. Luckily that idea wasn't very popular, since that sort of requirement is unreasonable aside from OEM installs of the operating system. That company went out of business.

loose nut
12-26-2014, 08:24 PM
If you bought it you own it, screw Autocad or Solidworks. If you want to, give it away. The receiving party may not be able to get support but so what. Too many corporations think they have the right to control every aspect of the product they SELL until it falls apart.

How do they control the millions of pirated copies that are out there.

loose nut
12-26-2014, 08:27 PM
He gave it away.......Didn't you all read that......HE GAVE IT AWAY....all these years he has been "binning" everything. I don't remember exactly but when asked why he didn't give it away he had some reason why he never gives anything away.

He had to give it away because it is impossible to bin something that doesn't really exist. Software is more of an idea then an actual physical item. Maybe he should have binned the computer it was installed on.:D

PStechPaul
12-26-2014, 11:41 PM
My PADS software supposedly requires me to notify them if I move the installation elsewhere beyond like 1/4 mile radius. Now they are discontinuing their licensing methodology and are offering an EOL update of the license files which are limited to 20 years from now. I probably won't be designing PCBs when I'm 85 but it is annoying that they can pull the plug at all.

A friend once paid for a set of plans and they emailed them and he printed them out. But he was dissatisfied and wanted his money back. They agreed, but he had to email the PDFs back to them. :rolleyes:

oldtiffie
12-27-2014, 12:18 AM
If you bought it you own it, screw Autocad or Solidworks. If you want to, give it away. The receiving party may not be able to get support but so what. Too many corporations think they have the right to control every aspect of the product they SELL until it falls apart.

How do they control the millions of pirated copies that are out there.

H-m-m-m-m

I think that if you read your licence agreement from/with Microsoft you only lease the software as MS is the licensor and you/I am the licensee. I think that ownership remains vested with Microsoft and any other distributor or developed that you undertake to be bound by a similar agreement.

Not knowing is no excuse any more than not liking it frees you.

If in doubt and just to prod your recollection, read the Users Agreement (or what ever it is called) - you might be surprised - and perhaps not pleasantly at that too.

Now whether that is (tried and) true or not I consider that it is and act accordingly to what I see as a binding contract that I entered into without coercion while fully informed of my obligation.

Hence my copies of all software remains with me and is destroyed ("binned" too) as soon as I have no need of or for it.

How others regard and/or deal with it is their own business - and none of mine. Same applies to "pirated" copies.

oldtiffie
12-27-2014, 02:12 AM
Here is some info on End User Licence Agreements (EULA)'s

Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user_license_agreement


Microsoft:

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=microsoft+end+user+license+agreement


Autodesk:

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=autodesk+end+user+license+agreement


Enforcementof EULA'a:

Microsoft:
https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=microsoft+end+user+license+agreement +enforcement


Autodesk:
https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=autodesk+end+user+license+agreement+ enforcement


Now, if I am pretty well right then we can say that even if you deny it or are none the wiser you are better informed if you agreed to it.

I seem to believe that some - but perhaps not all - software-ware can "write home" each time the software is started or used.

But as I said previously, how others do or don't deal with it is their business alone and certainly no business of mine.

Tread your own path - but tread warily.

oldtiffie
12-27-2014, 02:45 AM
This unfortunate discourse and deviation was brought about by Black Forest's post here:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/65412-SpaceClaim-vs-Alibre-GeoMagic?p=955662#post955662

And my reply to it:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/65412-SpaceClaim-vs-Alibre-GeoMagic?p=955767#post955767

And my further reply/comments to posts by some others:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/65412-SpaceClaim-vs-Alibre-GeoMagic?p=956043#post956043

PStechPaul
12-27-2014, 02:56 AM
You could set up a stand-alone computer without internet or WiFi access and the software can't "call home".

My PADS software uses a USB dongle (used to be a parallel port dongle) and will go into demo mode if not found. You can view the files but you can't save any edits. I found a back door in PADS2004 where the ASCII export function would allow saving work, but you still could not create Gerbers.

I only use the PCB design software occasionally, and mostly use the schematic capture, which is not dongle-protected. So I could create a netlist and use another PCB package if needed. But it's nice to have the back-annotation and other features provided by the OLE mechanism (which I used for some "helper" programs).

For occasional use, I would not mind having a web-based solution where I could pay a certain amount for a number of hours or days of usage to get the PCB files made. And it may be possible to "share" the software by sending files to a registered user who could do that portion of the job.

I understand why big-ticket software like PADS and Solidworks need to protect their products from copying, unauthorized use, and piracy, but the sometimes Draconian methods might actually present a challenge for people to "crack" the protection and then distribute unlocked versions. Apparently that was done for PADS2005 by hackers in Asia or Europe, and I would not feel guilty about using it if my dongle got lost or damaged and Mentor was unable to provide a reasonable remedy.

The business where I do some contract design work also has a PADS suite similar to mine, but they gave the dongle to another contract engineer who was using it for a major design initiative. However, he became seriously ill, and could not or would not respond to emails or phone calls, so they could not get the dongle for their own use. Eventually, for about $500, they sent a replacement. But it was a real hassle.

I had an early version of a PCB design package called Project-PCB that was dongle-protected, and they said that if they went out of business they would release their source code. Well, they did and they didn't. I actually paid about $1000 for the package around 1989. I also paid over $1000 for Futurenet DASH5, which was a high-end schematic capture program sold by DATAIO, and also dongle-protected. Eventually they made the software free, and I still have it installed on at least one computer, because several older projects were done using it, and still need to be maintained. It is an MSDOS application but will run on Win7 using DOSBOX. I'm not sure if it will run on my Win8 machine.

oldtiffie
12-27-2014, 06:58 AM
Interesting reminder Paul - thanks.

In the early days of AutoCAD (DOS) Ver. 2.18 as I recall, the dongle was a parallel p[ort model and later versions were Windows and had a serial ported dongle.

Some applications also required dongles and it was not uncommon to see a computer with several dongles. Without a dongle you could not use the protected software and if you lost a dongle you were really in strife - as it could cost you anew software.

Computers were very expensive compared to those that we have today.

J Tiers
12-27-2014, 10:22 AM
Tiffie, you may or may not have read the EULA for your various pieces of software. Frankly, probably you did NOT, almost nobody does, and for ostensibly good reasons.

1) If you don't like it, you can "lump it", i.e. do without the software, write your own, etc. That is generally not a viable option, you are going to accept the EULA and use the software, and everyone knows it..

2) the EULA is usually written in dense legal language, for which only a corporate/copyright lawyer has the background and training to truly follow and grasp the meaning. Reading it often does very little good, if any.

I can virtually GUARANTEE that *you* do not actually *understand* them. Not unless you are a lawyer and even then, you may need to be one of the right specialty. Possibly if the national laws there require a "plain language" disclosure, you have a shot at it. Having been a shop steward or union rep doesn't get you the correct background to decipher legal mumbo-jumbo, for one thing because there are accepted legal meanings for many many words, which are often at variance with what one would find in a dictionary.

Now, NEW Autodesk licenses are non-transferable, that is mentioned early in the document for the one or two that I looked at, and that at least is in plain language which may be relied upon. The rest of the dense language I did not look at, as it was of no consequence to me.

Non-transferable means that you cannot sell the product to a 3rd party. That's quite clear.

If your software is under that sort of agreement, then you should "bin" it.

Actually, you should destroy it before you "bin" the remains. If you didn't destroy it before you "binned" it, you may STILL be in violation of copyright, and subject to penalties.

That all said, you do take an apparent delight in repeatedly rubbing and grinding our noses in the fact that you will "bin" any piece of perfectly usable equipment (not subject to restrictive EULA) that you are tired of or don't use. That you POSITIVELY REFUSE to sell it onwards, and will ONLY scrap it.

Why you would do either of those.... bin good usable stuff, or repeatedly grind our noses in that fact, I have no idea. Neither makes any sense, unless you simply like to cause trouble.

loose nut
12-27-2014, 12:13 PM
I think that if you read your licence agreement from/with Microsoft you only lease the software as MS is the licensor and you/I am the licensee. I think that ownership remains vested with Microsoft and any other distributor or developed that you undertake to be bound by a similar agreement.
.

Tiffie, that may be their opinion but not mine. I'm sure if I read the EULA it probably says that they own what I bought from them plus I own them my first born son and the ownership of my house. Personally I don't care what it says, if it's mine it's mine, end of story. If they think they want it back then they can show up at my door and try and get it. Do you really think that a company like MS is going to go after everybody that doesn't do what they want, by using the law, spend thousand of $ in legal fee to stop somebody from using software that cost maybe $100.00 ( I don't actually know what it cost in OZ). Not likely.

The MPAA and the RIAA try to do just that with illegal down loaders of movies and music and had to stop. It had no effect, people just kept on doing it and the legal costs would have bankrupted them. EULA's are just there to try and intimidate people in a world were most people just don't care about it.

I have all my software, OS's right back to DOS 5, all my old cad software and various other bits, siting in a box on a shelf. I really don't know why I keep it, it won't work on more modern machines and those on old floppies are most likely degraded but it's mine I bought and I will keep it. The hell with the big corporations and their EULA's.

End of rant.

If you read the EULA it probably doesn't necessarily refer to your physical copy (maybe it dose I don't read them) but the fact that they own the source code to the software and you can not make any alterations to it. You can not make copies and sell them etc. Those are reasonable expectations and I someone did things like that then I would expect them to come after that person/people with a vengeance.

J Tiers
12-27-2014, 12:55 PM
The EULA WILL state that the issuer retains all rights to the code, etc. It will state that you are issued a license to use the code, but have no ownership in it. What you CAN usually "own" are the physical materials of the disk (but not contents), the physical material of the box, and the physical material of the manual, if supplied. What you do NOT own is anything printed on the box or manual.

There will be lots of other statements regarding what you can do with the licensed material, how many copies you can use, etc. Most MS and many other EULAs will allow the software to be on a desktop, AND on a portable at one time, if they are yours, not used by others, and only one is used at a time. Not every license is written that way.

It pretty much doesn't matter what you think.

If you make illegal copies in the US, you may be required, if caught and assessed damages, to buy one legal copy for each illegal copy, PLUS a penalty equal to the price of three more copies for each illegal copy... So each illegal copy will cost you 4X the purchase price if you are assessed damages.

It's cheaper to be on the level, with a legit license for each copy.

bhowden
12-27-2014, 02:03 PM
I once had the musical instruments CD from Microsoft and damaged the CD. I phoned up and started out by asking if I owned the sw. I got a long explanation about how I owned a license and the CD but not the code. (which is what I expected). At that point I told them that I had scratched the CD and since I already owned the license I wanted to buy replacement media (a CD). They agreed and sent me a new CD at no charge. This would have been early 90's.

Brian

Norman Bain
12-27-2014, 03:01 PM
... Do you really think that a company like MS is going to go after everybody that doesn't do what they want, by using the law, spend thousand of $ in legal fee to stop somebody from using software that cost maybe $100.00 ( I don't actually know what it cost in OZ). Not likely. ...


My take on the willingness of software suppliers to pursue license violations will depend on evolution of available technology.

Courts and the legal system generally will eventually go fully electronic with even legal argument and judges being computer programs clunking away on each other unless specific request for human intervention kicks in.

Add to this the ability of computer systems to trawl legal documents (your license) and match it to the meta data you have provided and it is nearly all over.

As to cost; this will fade to nothing due to legal firms taking on the role (using the new computerized mechanism) in the manner of debt collection agencies ... that is, do it for a fee on success.

Happy new year to all,
Norman

oldtiffie
12-27-2014, 05:08 PM
Bingo.

Whether you understand the EULA or not and you have the software installed on your hard disk, you should realise/remember that you only got there by electronically (and legally binding) agreeing to the terms and conditions of the EULA.

You also agreed that you fully understood the licence and were competent to do so and were not coerced into doing so.

A lot of people will just "agree" to all of that and from there on in use the installed software and "take their chances".

I have no argument with people choosing to do it that way - but I choose not to.

I agree that I probably cannot understand a lot of the EULA but I make sure I understand the gist and intent of it - so far as I am able.

So, yes, in that case I guess that to some extent I am taking my chances to/with at least of some of it.

But I do buy the licence to use the software either from a "cold start" or if I like it after a trial period.

I've spoken to some who have "pirated" software and in many cases brag about it but further discussion has often shown that whether they have installed it or not they have only used it rarely and never use it again - so the point of "needing" to "pirate" is largely lost.

Needless to say a lot of "good"(?????) "cracked" software is loaded with "nasties" that can be hard to remove and they can do a lot of damage and also needless to say that your "friends" won't thank you (if they are still your friends) if you pass copies around for others to use and their computers get "infected" (too??).

Its up to every individual to know his risks and to use his judgement as to whether to "down-load' and/or whether to install or not.

oldtiffie
12-27-2014, 05:30 PM
The EULA WILL state that the issuer retains all rights to the code, etc. It will state that you are issued a license to use the code, but have no ownership in it. What you CAN usually "own" are the physical materials of the disk (but not contents), the physical material of the box, and the physical material of the manual, if supplied. What you do NOT own is anything printed on the box or manual.

There will be lots of other statements regarding what you can do with the licensed material, how many copies you can use, etc. Most MS and many other EULAs will allow the software to be on a desktop, AND on a portable at one time, if they are yours, not used by others, and only one is used at a time. Not every license is written that way.

It pretty much doesn't matter what you think.

If you make illegal copies in the US, you may be required, if caught and assessed damages, to buy one legal copy for each illegal copy, PLUS a penalty equal to the price of three more copies for each illegal copy... So each illegal copy will cost you 4X the purchase price if you are assessed damages.

It's cheaper to be on the level, with a legit license for each copy.

Spot on JT.

And I agree with you 100% -and that may be a worry in itself for at least one of us!!

loose nut
12-27-2014, 07:10 PM
The EULA WILL state that the issuer retains all rights to the code, etc. It will state that you are issued a license to use the code, but have no ownership in it. What you CAN usually "own" are the physical materials of the disk (but not contents), the physical material of the box, and the physical material of the manual, if supplied. What you do NOT own is anything printed on the box or manual.
.

You own the ink but not what it says. You have pretty much summed up what is wrong with the world today.

All this to protect the same people that are screwing the little guys into oblivion.

P.S. unless you require a specific piece of software for a business etc. there is enough decent freeware and open source software available that it is no longer necessary to buy or otherwise acquire any other type of software. With the exception of MS Office which was legally acquired from work all I use now is freeware.

J Tiers
12-28-2014, 01:26 AM
What's really wrong is the rent the USE OF the software... with data automatically stored by the software in the cloud, and no way to get it unless you are still paying rent on the software so it can access YOUR data....

As for freeware, it has problems. Compatibility is the usual one, it *almost* reads the real S/W file, unless that one "poison" feature is invoked, and then you have a problem. The "poison" feature is inevitably the one the person sending you the file has used.

We find, for instance, that OpenOffice will usually read the MS file close to OK, but the interchange is just "seamy" enough that it is impossible to credibly use it in place of MS, unless NO MS files will need to be read.

If you have clients, you generally HAVE TO have the same S/W and version as they do Otherwise they will get annoyed and find someone who is not so far behind the times. When in business, use business S/W or be perceived as an amateur.