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loose nut
01-28-2015, 11:47 AM
Our local Model engineering club was given a tour of a local machine shop recently. It was very interesting. Most of there work is CNC (some on 9 axis machines down to 0.0002" tolerence) of small production runs. They do some manual work but the manager was saying that it is very hard to find good experience manual machinists anymore. The ones he can get just don't have the knowledge and skills that the older guys did and now has to send work like sharpening drills and cutters or making custom shaped cutters, routine work for a machinist in the olden times, out to specialized shops even though they have all the necessary equipment on site. The manager used to work in a tool and die shop and did this himself in the past. The shop does not have any apprentices and won't have because the manager says they can't afford them. He probably can but the hit to the bottom line would affect his standing with the owner IE: his salary.

If the lack of skilled men is a problem and he does not wish to help solve the problem by having the knowledge of his skilled people passed on, then why does he think he has the right to bitch about it in the first place. This seems to be a common situation these days and the chief instigators of this situation are the companies, big and small, that are causing it.

It may very well be that in the near future us amateurs may be the only ones left with this kind on knowledge.

Just sayin'. Rant off.

frankie
01-28-2015, 11:59 AM
When I announced my intention to retire a couple of years ago I was expecting to see someone hired to take my job, when this did not happen I asked what they were waiting on,I was told they could not find any one they wanted to hire. I would say this situation is only going to get worse as time goes on.

frankie

wmgeorge
01-28-2015, 12:23 PM
Maybe 10 or 20 years ago Des Moines IA area used to have a great machine shop program at Tech High along with other high schools in the area. After all this is farm country, we had John Deere, Massey Ferguson and a lot more around. The know all, see all school boards saw a lot of money being used to maintain those shops. They decided everyone needed to go to college and after all to teach an English class you just needed a teacher and a open classroom. So they sold off the school shops.

Fast forward to today, the kids who did not go to college are now working at Mc Donald's for $7.25 and living in mom and dads basement complaining they can't get a good job.
Thank goodness the local Community College has an excellent machine shop program, but the kids are clueless about the jobs. They could find out, but laziness and mom and dad supporting them, are just a couple reasons they don't.

Rich Carlstedt
01-28-2015, 12:24 PM
You hit the nail on the head.
However ----
One of the problems with technology, is the loss of skills
Without change, the status quo keeps the skills constant.
Witness the old days with Black Smiths .
You could find more than one person in every town who could make horse shoes.
So the skills that are lost are those "no longer needed"
To me , the most valuable machinist is not a "Tool and Die Maker"
The most valuable ( and one I tell youngsters this all the time) is to become a maintenance machinist and he will never suffer unemployment.
They are the highest paid and the last to go. What is a Maintenance Machinist ( for those unfamiliar with the term )?
They are the guys who can work without prints. They know how to fix machine tools as well as make parts using any piece of equipment. They are the innovators for improving shop problems and keep machines running. They can do manual and CNC .
They don't get laid off, because they can keep everything running in the shop.
They are like hen's teeth, rare.

Many home shop machinists are maintenance machinists by proxy.
You fix your lathe or mill....making your own parts if needed.
You can make parts without drawings and understand fits, tolerances, metals, processes etc.

The world will morn the loss of these skills as it moves on to the 3D printers to make parts in the future and obsolesce of machine tools becomes apparent.

Rich

photomankc
01-28-2015, 12:28 PM
Oh yeah, this is seen all the time.


"WE CAN'T FIND OR KEEP SKILLED PEOPLE!!!!!!"


Will you train up from within? ---- No! Too time consuming, we have projects that need completed now!
Will you pay to intensively train outside? ---- No! Too expensive!
Will you offer enough pay to draw someone that already knows it all from somewhere else? ---- No! Too expensive!


Well, then shut up already. That about covers the ways your going to get people skilled in XYZ thing you need.

George Bulliss
01-28-2015, 12:48 PM
Oh yeah, this is seen all the time.


"WE CAN'T FIND OR KEEP SKILLED PEOPLE!!!!!!"


Will you train up from within? ---- No! Too time consuming, we have projects that need completed now!
Will you pay to intensively train outside? ---- No! Too expensive!
Will you offer enough pay to draw someone that already knows it all from somewhere else? ---- No! Too expensive!


Well, then shut up already. That about covers the ways your going to get people skilled in XYZ thing you need.

This is a sore spot with me as well. There have been a lot of news stories lately, with a lot of shop owners crying about how they can’t get skilled people to work. Yet, as I look around at the jobs being offered I see the wages have not changed in 20 years (though the benefits have declined).

The work environment hasn’t improved much either. To keep up with orders without increasing the workforce, one shop around the corner from me has been on mandatory seven day weeks, 12 hours a day, for about a year and a half. Can’t say as I would blame a high schooler for not wanting to jump right into that.

vincemulhollon
01-28-2015, 12:57 PM
How many people? If there's like 50, then they have no financial excuse, but if its 5, yeah, I can see not having apprentice.

Another novelty is in this state an apprenticeship involves contracts I think with the state dept of labor, something weird like that, so if you figure you'll be out of business or moved to China by next year before an apprenticeship could complete...

Another problem is in the computer industry in general the execs will cry like babies until they go into dehydration about a lack of employees but the real problem is they have champagne and caviar tastes on a PBR and McNugget salary budget. Go ahead boys try paying more than McDonalds then maybe you'll get some qualified applicants.

danlb
01-28-2015, 01:20 PM
I am really glad that I grew up in an era when businesses trained their people to match the expected work. I effectively worked in 5 or 6 fields during my 25 years with AT&T. Too bad they don't do that any more.

As a software consultant, I worked with a lot of big companies, and it's amazing how often I heard a manager lament that "I can't find a qualified person willing to take the job at market rates!".

Dan

bborr01
01-28-2015, 01:20 PM
A friend of mine was telling me a year or so ago that his biggest problem is finding people with skills to work at his shop. I asked him if he had talked to he high school or the regional tech center about training. He is too busy for that kind of stuff. What would he expect.

I ran into a guy last fall on vacation who had a fairly large shop in Iowa. He owns it with a couple of his brothers. He told me that he regularly speaks at high schools about opportunities in the tool and die trade and said he has had many people hire in from his efforts.

Brian

dp
01-28-2015, 01:30 PM
In my opinion the oft repeated claim of too few trained people is a manufactured idea used to disguise the unspoken part, "affordable trained people" and is justification for importing cheap labor. I worked in very high tech in the heart of Seattle's high tech bread basket. We had no shortage of qualified people available and willing, but other countries provided the unspoken affordable element. This was especially obvious when at the end of the day one stands across from the bus terminal and looks at the expanse of foreign born people waiting to catch the interurban. Race has no part in this and I don't want to read any racist crap here - it is all about economics and the industrial complex that is driving government policy that penalizing our children. Add to that an education system that has abandoned industrial education and you have a self-fulfilling problem.

http://www.flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx

photomankc
01-28-2015, 01:32 PM
......

snip:
"I can't find a qualified person willing to take the job at market rates!".

Dan


My next response to that lament is generally (in my best Inigo Montoya voice): "Market rates, you keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean."

photomankc
01-28-2015, 01:43 PM
I am really glad that I grew up in an era when businesses trained their people to match the expected work. I effectively worked in 5 or 6 fields during my 25 years with AT&T. Too bad they don't do that any more.

As a software consultant, I worked with a lot of big companies, and it's amazing how often I heard a manager lament that "I can't find a qualified person willing to take the job at market rates!".

Dan


I presented my little autonomous mobile robot to an elementary school class and of course the robot was attraction #1, but the next most interesting topic to them was the parts of the robot after learning they could not buy any of them? How did I make all those pieces myself? Where did I learn how to do it? I told them that maintaining automation is the future. If your job is to move this thing, from over here to, to over there, then your days are already numbered. However knowing how to repair the things that move stuff around is a skill that is unlikely to face automation or extinction.

Black_Moons
01-28-2015, 01:53 PM
This is a sore spot with me as well. There have been a lot of news stories lately, with a lot of shop owners crying about how they canít get skilled people to work. Yet, as I look around at the jobs being offered I see the wages have not changed in 20 years (though the benefits have declined).

This. Exactly. Inflation has made everything required to live (Food, housing, transportation) cost 2x more yet somehow wages have not gone up since I was a kid.

MrFluffy
01-28-2015, 02:21 PM
Its not just mechanical trades. I have been given a threat of take a massive paycut or be gone in 6 months. My manager has told me he knows it will result in a loss of skill and knowledge and represents a financial risk of many times our cost to the business as the team I am in are the only people with our skills and knowledge in the company (and I know the other two guys won't stay on those terms also), but HR has told everyone company wide they have to cut costs by 20% per annum which we've achieved through increased automation and taking on more work in the previous 4 years but now there's no slack left to cut. To be honest its time for pastures new anyway so its a relief to be given the chance to walk without having to have that talk with my wife & I've seen so many people finished while doing core functions and the resultant mess when nobody has picked up the slack its only a matter of time before a major incident occurs. At the same time, the HR dept & upper and middle management now outnumber the workers who actually do things by a considerable factor.
Same company has been crying in the newspaper about how the visa controls need to be opened up to allow more workers because they cannot "find" enough skilled people.

justanengineer
01-28-2015, 02:34 PM
the manager was saying that it is very hard to find good experience manual machinists anymore. The ones he can get just don't have the knowledge and skills that the older guys did and now has to send work like sharpening drills and cutters or making custom shaped cutters, routine work for a machinist in the olden times, out to specialized shops even though they have all the necessary equipment on site. The manager used to work in a tool and die shop and did this himself in the past.

JMO but the major problem isnt wages, its simply knowledge. Yes there are cheap shops not paying dink, but theres always been those. Knowledge OTOH seems to be disappearing faster than new technology is appearing, somehow folks seem to know less than ever while having access to more and I suspect its bc folks are relying too much on technology. I could probably write a book on the stupidity Ive seen thus far in my short career in manufacturing, designing challenging parts and quoting them to shops exposes me to far too much daily. I probably average one quote or job per month where something coming back from a supplier is just plain silly and ruins my opinion of that shop, my recent favorite has been shops that should be grinding to a tolerance believing they can mill to it. Some of these incidents make me really wonder how these shops survive.

Personally I'd suggest that someone truly talented is pretty dam valuable and rare nowadays, nevermind the future. One of my favorite suppliers is a small tool shop with about a dozen employees and an owner that went from basically nothing in his mid-40s to a millionaire a decade later simply bc he hires top people, pays them well, they have BOTH the equipment AND knowledge to do virtually anything, and they do top quality work the first time. Theyre not cheap nor quick, but when you need something abstract with tight tolerances done right everybody around knows you call them.

Black_Moons
01-28-2015, 02:38 PM
HR has told everyone company wide they have to cut costs by 20% per annum which we've achieved through increased automation and taking on more work in the previous 4 years but now there's no slack left to cut.

Tell HR that the HR department would be a wonderful area to cut costs and employees and it would not affect the work levels at all!

SGW
01-28-2015, 02:45 PM
I expect if I were escaping a war zone and had no more than the clothes on my back, the way a lot of refugees are, I'd be willing to live in a slum and work for starvation wages too, because anything that kept me alive would be better than where I came from. But that's not a fair wage. Companies who expect non-desperate workers to take jobs for poverty-level pay are going to be disappointed.

RussZHC
01-28-2015, 03:28 PM
Companies who expect non-desperate workers to take jobs for poverty-level pay are going to be disappointed.

difficulty there is that those desperate workers can get to be so desperate...you take anything you can get in some circumstances e.g. oil workers or support in Alberta as prices continue to drop or stay low.
AND
the other angle is the flow of those desperate workers not already within the national borders as residents is controlled by government and such quotas can change with interest group pressure and lobbying, just saying there have been an increasing number of ads locally that while being "help wanted" are truly aimed at immigration (as evidenced by the McDonalds "temporary" workers uproar in the last 18 months)

boslab
01-28-2015, 04:34 PM
That's the problem really, companies plan for now not the future, training is a drain, the companies that train use thier financial resources to do that therefore pay must be lower, once trained the trainee usually leaves for a company with better pay that does no training.
At this juncture I think the problem cannot be fixed at a company level, it needs government to step in and reimburse the company training people, and motivate those who don't with a carrot, or a big stick.
I've seen hundreds of trainees walk at the end of a training, usually to fords plant down the road who couldn't get enough of them.
Funny old world
Mark

Paul Alciatore
01-28-2015, 04:36 PM
This is a situation that industry has brought on itself. Bottom line. Bottom line! BOTTOM LINE!!! But what they are really worried about is THEIR bottom line, not the company's.

If they really wanted and needed ANY skill, they would find the money to pay for it. But they don't. So, old machinists retire and are not replaced. And some 20s or 30s VP takes credit for the cost savings, gets a raise and a bonus, and the company starts on a slow downward spiral. Ten or twenty years later they are auctioning off the assets for pennies on the dollar and another set of jobs are now in China. And when the company closes the doors for the last time, no one knows why. Really?

If they really wanted and/or needed machinists, they WOULD pay them. And the machinists would come. They get exactly what they pay for.

oldtiffie
01-28-2015, 06:03 PM
It seems to me anyway that there may be a bit more self-justification and self pity here without too much of what you (me too) can and will do about it all.

The probable result seems to be more of the same.

I don't say that anyone should just "roll over" but the result may be the same as if you did not.

"Labour" and skills" are just commodities like food, oil, gas, coal, mineral ores etc. and the costs and profits (losses too) are determined by "market forces" as supply and demand rises and falls.

It also seems to me that there is a glut or surplus of "labour" and "skills" and that that can change by the day or job in some cases such that potential "employees" (on a contractor "hourly rate" basis) are all competing for jobs and wages that in better times they may not even consider applying for.

If that is so then your competitor may be the person on the machine or desk next to yours and/or the person at the head of the queue out side the shop door waiting to get in.

I cannot see the need for "re-skilling" or "re-training" where the skill-set is obsolescent or obsolete and may only be required until the current job/contract reaches its end.

There is probably not a good justification for keeping "skilled people" "on" if there is not sufficient work to keep them on "until something turns up".

A lot of "training" by "outside providers" is at best largely obsolescent or obsolete with little regard to current and known future skills and so is almost of no real use at all.

PStechPaul
01-28-2015, 07:06 PM
Quite a few workers who come here from Mexico and elsewhere are able to live fairly comfortably on wages that most Americans would not even consider, by consolidating resources. They often share an apartment or a house, carpool, and take other measures to reduce expenses, to the point where they can often send money home to take care of the rest of their families. We have grown up with the expectation of ever increasing personal wealth and more lavish lifestyles, which resulted in the standard two-worker families paying for their kids' daycare, longer commutes to get better paying jobs while living in remote suburbs, higher debt, and increased isolation of family members each of whom want their own rooms with a full set of entertainment devices.

People coming from other parts of the world have much lower expectations, but also have better education and work ethics, so they experience an immense improvement in their lives by coming here. The days of children being able to have better lifestyles than their parents (as measured by material standards) are over. In a global economy, we can expect greater parity among those with similar skills and occupations, all over the world. There also needs to be a way to eliminate the large proportion of wealth concentrated in and stagnating in the top 1%, and injecting that into the general economy where money and goods will exchange more frequently. How this will be accomplished involves business ethics and politics, which are not allowed for discussion here. But money and material goods do not really buy happiness, and people who live in comparatively uncivilized and simple societies often are much happier than those who are caught in the rat-race of Capitalism, as long as they have favorable conditions to get sufficient food and water, and are not preyed upon by others who are motivated by greed, power, or extremism.

garyhlucas
01-28-2015, 08:27 PM
I am 61, I have never been unemployed for more than one week since I graduated high school. I work with SolidWorks 2015, AutoCad 2014, and a brand new Dell M 6700 laptop. I built my own CNC machine. I'm building two different 3D printers. I'm getting a four axis CNC mill at my job next week. I can do wiring, welding, machining, PLC programming, accounting, and management. I've always gotten raises quickly in companies where no one gets a raise. I read and learn from everyone around me. I am closer to the grave than I am to obsolescence. No matter how bad the job picture is SOMEONE is doing machining, plumbing, electrical, welding.

My advice, BE that guy!

oldtiffie
01-28-2015, 08:37 PM
Good advice Garry but you have an excellent CV to present to a potential employer who value relevant experience and versatility and a proven history of "having a go" and "making it work".

My guess is that you have a very high order of "interview technique" and "presentation" (ie selling yourself) to an interviewer and that they will have had the chance to interview/phone you previous employers so they will have a pretty good idea of "you" else you would not be on the final selection list.

Its a lot more then just "machining".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curriculum_vitae

https://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=cv&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4IRFC_enAU360AU360&q=cv&gs_l=hp..1.0l5.0.0.1.801928...........0.qUygrBNhDh w

Rustybolt
01-28-2015, 08:48 PM
Quite a few workers who come here from Mexico and elsewhere are able to live fairly comfortably on wages that most Americans would not even consider, by consolidating resources. They often share an apartment or a house, carpool, and take other measures to reduce expenses, to the point where they can often send money home to take care of the rest of their families. We have grown up with the expectation of ever increasing personal wealth and more lavish lifestyles, which resulted in the standard two-worker families paying for their kids' daycare, longer commutes to get better paying jobs while living in remote suburbs, higher debt, and increased isolation of family members each of whom want their own rooms with a full set of entertainment devices.

People coming from other parts of the world have much lower expectations, but also have better education and work ethics, so they experience an immense improvement in their lives by coming here. The days of children being able to have better lifestyles than their parents (as measured by material standards) are over. In a global economy, we can expect greater parity among those with similar skills and occupations, all over the world. There also needs to be a way to eliminate the large proportion of wealth concentrated in and stagnating in the top 1%, and injecting that into the general economy where money and goods will exchange more frequently. How this will be accomplished involves business ethics and politics, which are not allowed for discussion here. But money and material goods do not really buy happiness, and people who live in comparatively uncivilized and simple societies often are much happier than those who are caught in the rat-race of Capitalism, as long as they have favorable conditions to get sufficient food and water, and are not preyed upon by others who are motivated by greed, power, or extremism.

In my section of Illinois they live well because they are double dipping. Once they cross the boarder into Illinois they are eligible for welfare benefits. Once on the rolls it is very difficult to get off.

dp
01-28-2015, 09:00 PM
Ruh Roh - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbjsvEjXLgo

oldtiffie
01-28-2015, 09:07 PM
Ruh Roh (thanks Dennis (aka DP)):

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Ruh+Roh&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4IRFC_enAU360AU360&biw=1536&bih=732&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=XZXJVLOyGYrn8gXVjIKoCg&ved=0CCIQsAQ

https://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=cv&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4IRFC_enAU360AU360&q=cv&gs_l=hp..1.0l5.0.0.1.801928...........0.qUygrBNhDh w#hl=en-GB&q=Ruh+Roh+

Mike Amick
01-28-2015, 09:42 PM
I actually think Scooby plagiarized that from Astro, Jetsons dog.

Im pretty sure Ruh Roh Rorge came first.

dp
01-28-2015, 09:54 PM
Astro and Scooby were both created by the same Hanna-Barbera cartoonist. Both said ruh roh. Astro did it first.

oldtiffie
01-28-2015, 09:58 PM
I think those dogs were not only talking to me but they were making sense - and lots of it.

Odd that - or is it?

Wottawurry.

thaiguzzi
01-29-2015, 12:48 AM
Quite a few workers who come here from Mexico and elsewhere are able to live fairly comfortably on wages that most Americans would not even consider, by consolidating resources. They often share an apartment or a house, carpool, and take other measures to reduce expenses, to the point where they can often send money home to take care of the rest of their families. We have grown up with the expectation of ever increasing personal wealth and more lavish lifestyles, which resulted in the standard two-worker families paying for their kids' daycare, longer commutes to get better paying jobs while living in remote suburbs, higher debt, and increased isolation of family members each of whom want their own rooms with a full set of entertainment devices.

People coming from other parts of the world have much lower expectations, but also have better education and work ethics, so they experience an immense improvement in their lives by coming here. The days of children being able to have better lifestyles than their parents (as measured by material standards) are over. In a global economy, we can expect greater parity among those with similar skills and occupations, all over the world. There also needs to be a way to eliminate the large proportion of wealth concentrated in and stagnating in the top 1%, and injecting that into the general economy where money and goods will exchange more frequently. How this will be accomplished involves business ethics and politics, which are not allowed for discussion here. But money and material goods do not really buy happiness, and people who live in comparatively uncivilized and simple societies often are much happier than those who are caught in the rat-race of Capitalism, as long as they have favorable conditions to get sufficient food and water, and are not preyed upon by others who are motivated by greed, power, or extremism.

+1. Very well written.

oldtiffie
01-29-2015, 01:10 AM
Or local Model engineering club was given a tour of a local machine shop recently. It was very interesting. Most of there work is CNC (some on 9 axis machines down to 0.0002" tolerence) of small production runs. They do some manual work but the manager was saying that it is very hard to find good experience manual machinists anymore. The ones he can get just don't have the knowledge and skills that the older guys did and now has to send work like sharpening drills and cutters or making custom shaped cutters, routine work for a machinist in the olden times, out to specialized shops even though they have all the necessary equipment on site. The manager used to work in a tool and die shop and did this himself in the past. The shop does not have any apprentices and won't have because the manager says they can't afford them. He probably can but the hit to the bottom line would affect his standing with the owner IE: his salary.

If the lack of skilled men is a problem and he does not wish to help solve the problem by having the knowledge of his skilled people passed on, then why does he think he has the right to bitch about it in the first place. This seems to be a common situation these days and the chief instigators of this situation are the companies, big and small, that are causing it.

It may very well be that in the near future us amateurs may be the only ones left with this kind on knowledge.

Just sayin'. Rant off.

All "machinists" are not equal nor are they equally skilled in the skill-sets that a particular employer wants or of a long or short term employee or a contractor.

Applicants should make themselves aware of what the advertiser (employer or recruiting agency) wants/needs.

It is an unwarranted delay and cost if they select the best "bad" candidate - but only if the"best" does not meets their needs and then they may re-advertise if no candidate will suffice.

It can be a pretty expensive mistake in a whole lot of ways if the employer gets it wrong.

A candidate does not have an inalienable "right" to get or keep a position - that is for the employer alone.

It is quite possible that the best job for a candidate will or may involve "shifting house" with travelling that may not suit.

Some employers may have machines etc. that the candidate has never seen or has had difficulty with - but the phone calls to a previous employer should soon sort that - and the candidate - out.

It should be evident that you will get a better reference etc. from a previous employer if you parted under good circumstances.

danlb
01-29-2015, 02:20 AM
People coming from other parts of the world have much lower expectations, but also have better education and work ethics, so they experience an immense improvement in their lives by coming here.

My experience in the IT world was different. I can't count the number of H1B visa immigrants I've worked with who had degrees and yet had to be trained to do the job. They were primarily from India, China and surrounding areas. They were all getting 1/2 of what I was getting. 2/3 of them got married and had kids within the first year. There were whole work groups at ebay that were from India. If you did not speak their dialect you were an outsider. I saw major discussions carried on without a word of english spoken.

Many had a good work ethic, but that was partly because they did not want to get fired and sent home before they were fully "established".

Dan

MrFluffy
01-29-2015, 03:28 AM
I've seen it too, and also first hand the split pay arrangements where people are on shorter term visa's (3 years or less renewed annually) so are paid in the host country a % of the wages and the remainder in their country of origin. The same results in the worker actually being able to claim low income top up benefits in the host country. In fact guides are distributed amongst the new hires for the offshore agencies detailing the proceedure for each country. So while it looks like you are paid much more, the difference also needs to cater for the paper money hiding exercise also.

H1B in the US is used as a tool to drive wages and conditions down for sure. Again, direct experience, close relation decided to up sticks and go work in SF at a very specialist role, got his green card and the company used to use withdrawral of such as a negotiating tool, he couldn't effectively leave that company for a better position because he was told they would revoke his green card, and the application process by the next sponsor would take so long he would have to leave and re-apply for entry from scratch. In the end he just gave up being a cheap pawn in someones game and is back in the UK now.

Tiffie there's nothing really we can do about it, this is driven by short term quarterly greed in company management. What industries we have had have been eroded away to improve a quarter results and I have seen titans of their industry disappear when the reality of what their policies have lead to have come home to roost.

There's no lack of people who could be machinists who are bright, motivated and can learn if the demand is placed on them, though yes, knowledge transfer from the old hands is being lost all the time this goes on. What we currently have a real problem with is a lack of good management with strong strategic long term vision, not quarter to quarter wins for the shareholders.

Old Hat
01-29-2015, 04:01 AM
Can you think of any circumstance, any progression of activity,
any topic from history, that can be expressed on a graph by a straight line?

I can't.
Remember that, what has made up the timeline of transition
from ox-carts to space-shuttles isn't going to keep going unchecked.
The Jetson's will never happen. Life is far too easy for far too many.
Wealth and gratification as a goal, instead of industrious productive aspirations
that lead to achievement, insn't sustainable.

We gonna be free soon. Frank Zappa style....
"free is when ya don't have ta do nuthin or pay for nuthin, I want to be free."

Free & Cheap......... uh huh:mad:

oldtiffie
01-29-2015, 06:49 AM
Can you think of any circumstance, any progression of activity,
any topic from history, that can be expressed on a graph by a straight line?

I can't.

...............................................


And so can anyone who has a good command Shop Maths 101 and of scaling graph axes and the equations that are to be plotted.

Not all graphs have equal "X"s and "Y"'s - far from it - but many do.

Not all graphs start at "Zero" either.

Have a good look at a reasonable graphing calculator and work some of the examples - at least - for yourself.

loose nut
01-29-2015, 09:58 AM
All "machinists" are not equal nor are they equally skilled in the skill-sets that a particular employer wants or of a long or short term employee or a contractor.

Applicants should make themselves aware of what the advertiser (employer or recruiting agency) wants/needs.

It is an unwarranted delay and cost if they select the best "bad" candidate - but only if the"best" does not meets their needs and then they may re-advertise if no candidate will suffice.

It can be a pretty expensive mistake in a whole lot of ways if the employer gets it wrong.

A candidate does not have an inalienable "right" to get or keep a position - that is for the employer alone.

It is quite possible that the best job for a candidate will or may involve "shifting house" with travelling that may not suit.

Some employers may have machines etc. that the candidate has never seen or has had difficulty with - but the phone calls to a previous employer should soon sort that - and the candidate - out.

It should be evident that you will get a better reference etc. from a previous employer if you parted under good circumstances.

You kind of missed the point of the first post.

Man has problem, he can't get properly trained/experienced people.

Man can't find proper people and doesn't want to train people to the standards he needs.

Man spends time complaining about his problem instead of trying to fix it.

Mans real problem is that he is creating the situation that is causing him trouble.

Solution: Put up or shut up.

Priceless.

flylo
01-29-2015, 11:03 AM
IMHO I think American companies, government & unions have been so short sighted & that's the why we're where we are today. 30 years ago machine shops would hire apprentices, pay a fair wage, furnish tools & training as it has been done for centuries. Then China came on the scene with give away prices but did not have the sames rules & regs as the U.S. companies had to follow so it wasn't & isn't a level playing field & should have never been allowed by our government. Now there is no or little training available, insurance companies have closed high school & college trade programs because of liability. The companies didn't look past the next quarter & bought from china, the government should have made sure it was a level playing field, the unions kept asking for more & I honestly think it's too late. This one world economy will bring us down, bring china & other third world countries up. This is only how I see it from outside the industry.

superUnknown
01-29-2015, 05:48 PM
When I announced my intention to retire a couple of years ago I was expecting to see someone hired to take my job, when this did not happen I asked what they were waiting on,I was told they could not find any one they wanted to hire. I would say this situation is only going to get worse as time goes on.

frankie

I'm in my late 30s and have seen this twice in as many years. The company's got some pie in the sky idea that they can find a guy to replace 80 years of experience, then when they find a young guy who will fit the bill nicely, they can't (won't) pay for it! There's lots of talent around, but go-to-guys aren't shy of getting every plug nickel they're worth.

oldtiffie
01-29-2015, 06:18 PM
Not all machinists are equal - always has been.

Some are quite skilled but have little or no ability to adjust or write CNC code.

Some "machinist" positions are little more that that of a Janitor/cleaner for one or more automatic machines - and that includes "feeding" material for the machine to grip and start work on.

Many positions are for automated "production" where the machines work 24/7 and the operators keep looking after then on 24 hour (2/12 or 3/8) shifts.

There will be other variations of course.

tc429
01-29-2015, 06:24 PM
To me , the most valuable machinist is not a "Tool and Die Maker"
The most valuable ( and one I tell youngsters this all the time) is to become a maintenance machinist and he will never suffer unemployment.
They are the highest paid and the last to go. What is a Maintenance Machinist ( for those unfamiliar with the term )?
They are the guys who can work without prints. They know how to fix machine tools as well as make parts using any piece of equipment. They are the innovators for improving shop problems and keep machines running. They can do manual and CNC .
They don't get laid off, because they can keep everything running in the shop.
They are like hen's teeth, rare.

Many home shop machinists are maintenance machinists by proxy.
You fix your lathe or mill....making your own parts if needed.
You can make parts without drawings and understand fits, tolerances, metals, processes etc.

The world will morn the loss of these skills as it moves on to the 3D printers to make parts in the future and obsolesce of machine tools becomes apparent.

Rich

i agree- we will always need tool and die guys, but 35 yrs in the same shop, the 'do it all' types were always hardest type to find-let alone keep, as opportunities were always popping up- with our biggest customer(multi billion dollar worldwide type of thing) ive seen it too- some of their key guys left to start up their own shops and got all the work they wanted from their old bosses...

it is a darn shame that in todays litigation poisoned society, that kids cant get a broader skill set earlier on...yes machines are darn dangerous, but so is life. they built a new highschool in my hometown a few years back, toured the machine trades workshop, it was beautiful...but before the first schoolyear they shut it down for fears of lawsuits- often wondered what happened to all the new machinery they had there, probably sitting there locked in a room :(

justanengineer
01-29-2015, 07:04 PM
You kind of missed the point of the first post.

Man has problem, he can't get properly trained/experienced people.

Man can't find proper people and doesn't want to train people to the standards he needs.

Man spends time complaining about his problem instead of trying to fix it.

Mans real problem is that he is creating the situation that is causing him trouble.

Solution: Put up or shut up.

Priceless.

If you were here stateside Id think youre griping just to gripe, being in Cantada I'll cut you slack and assume its an entirely different world with a vastly different economy, industry, and education system up there. Here stateside we have enough community/JV/other colleges offering fairly cheap education on modern machines that company apprenticeships dont make sense. Couple that with the fact that the crooked unions have ruined the value of an apprenticeship's certification, and its all the more reason for the state to handle education. Yes its sad that trades courses are no longer offered in middle/high school and too many kids are being pushed to get worthless college degrees, but our trades education is in no great danger from lack of education, maybe from entitlement issues and the modern idiotic lazy attitude, but not lack of educational facilities. Beyond all of that, keep in mind you were talking to the MANAGER, not the OWNER. The impetus should be on the owner in these matters, not the manager. JME but I dont know many employees that have been encouraged or even allowed to speak publicly or take action on a business's behalf, but I do know quite a few who've been canned for doing so. Even beyond the matter of responsibility, the #1 thing the shop owner should be doing in this case is exactly what the manager was doing - spreading awareness of the problem by griping about it.

+1 on what Paul said, his is definitely one of the best posts Ive seen on this board.

loose nut
01-29-2015, 07:16 PM
being in Cantada I'll cut you slack.

And you probably think that is funny too!

P.S. the Manager in the shop runs everything as the owner is a long way a way, Texarse I believe.

Rosco-P
01-29-2015, 07:32 PM
My experience in the IT world was different. I can't count the number of H1B visa immigrants I've worked with who had degrees and yet had to be trained to do the job. They were primarily from India, China and surrounding areas. They were all getting 1/2 of what I was getting. 2/3 of them got married and had kids within the first year. There were whole work groups at ebay that were from India. If you did not speak their dialect you were an outsider. I saw major discussions carried on without a word of english spoken.

Many had a good work ethic, but that was partly because they did not want to get fired and sent home before they were fully "established".

Dan

Funny, but sad. Long ago, I experienced and saw the same thing. IT "experts" from India, advanced degrees up the ass, brought in on an H1B because they couldn't find qualified technicians here. If you were quiet after hours, you'd catch them buried in a tech. book or being tutored by one of their countrymen in exactly the skill they were already supposed to be the masters of. Confronting management with solid evidence, I was told, "But they're so cheap to hire. We can have three of them for what we pay you."

oldtiffie
01-29-2015, 09:01 PM
Well at least you know/knew you really monetary worth to the company.

But if the roles between yourself and the manager were reversed would you (not?) be doing the same - whether "management" told you to or not??

Rosco-P
01-29-2015, 10:44 PM
Well at least you know/knew you really monetary worth to the company.

But if the roles between yourself and the manager were reversed would you (not?) be doing the same - whether "management" told you to or not??

No, I wouldn't be importing "talent" that didn't know their ass from their elbow. If I was presented with the facts, I'd see those same BS artists were on the next boat to their home country. If they cost 1/3 as much, take twice as long to complete a task and it's full of errors, in what accounting system does that still equate to be a bargain?

Black_Moons
01-29-2015, 11:04 PM
No, I wouldn't be importing "talent" that didn't know their ass from their elbow. If I was presented with the facts, I'd see those same BS artists were on the next boat to their home country. If they cost 1/3 as much, take twice as long to complete a task and it's full of errors, in what accounting system does that still equate to be a bargain?

HR sees "Job X needs 10 man-hours to complete with Y skillset"
They don't ever see "Job X needs 50 man-hours to complete with partial Y skillset", or "Job X needs 50 man-hours to complete with Y degree because its not worth the paper its written on and does not indicate the person has a skillset"

So they just look for lowest $/hr that claims to fulfill the roll. Sorta like buying tools at harbor freight.

macona
01-29-2015, 11:09 PM
At the last place I worked a kid in the maintenance shop wanted to learn to be a machinist and applied for an open entry level machinist position. He was denied because he did not have enough "leadership experience".

Really?

lost_cause
01-29-2015, 11:16 PM
It should be evident that you will get a better reference etc. from a previous employer if you parted under good circumstances.

that's kind of hit or miss depending on the employer. one previous employer often made it subtly known that if you left there you wouldn't find anything better. when people did give their notice it was sometimes met with screaming or yelling and maybe a veiled threat or two about not finding another job in that industry. plain and simple, they resented it when you quit, and no matter how you handled it you weren't likely to get a good reference. over the years things changed and i think that policy mellowed out a little, but i never had to go through it. they decided one day it was cheaper to get work done overseas and sent us all home.

EddyCurr
01-29-2015, 11:31 PM
If they cost 1/3 as much, take twice as long to complete a task and it's
full of errors, in what accounting system does that still equate to be a bargain?From here, that looks like a 33-1/3% savings for the development team's budget
(1/3 as much * twice as long = 2/3 cost.) Provided that the overpaid domestic
project mgr succeeds at what she was hired for - persuading the client to sign
off by whatever means necessary.

Once tossed over the fence, the outsourced errors then mean guaranteed work
for the maintenance/support team.

About the time that application performance meets the actual expectations of
the frontline users and outages are virtually non-existant, the client decides it
is time to upgrade and contacts the vendor to begin the process of extracting
another great deal through tough negotiating tactics and iron clad contract
requirements ...

See how it works ?

Cue: Circle of Life (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwSKkKrUzUk)

.

Norm W
01-30-2015, 08:55 AM
A friend of mine that runs a HVAC company, put an ad in the paper and at the local community college for people willing to be trained for his company. They would have two months of training, they would be paid during the training and their salary would be increased when they completed the training. Of the six that applied only one completed the training. He hasn’t had anyone stop in looking for work in the last ten years. They don't want to get their hands dirty or they are not able to think on their own.

BigBoy1
01-31-2015, 01:38 PM
Our local community college HAD a machinist program but the new female College President decided that the shops were dirty, expensive to keep up and the space could be better utilized. The machinist courses had 100% placement of its graduates which had been the case for over the past 10 years but the machinist program was dropped and spaces converted into a cosmetology training area. The placement rate for graduates from the cosmetology training was only 20 to 25%. So much for contributing to the work force!

sawlog
02-02-2015, 06:20 AM
I see the problem simply, No one want to pay for training, we can get the work done off shore. Two today's parents want their kids to be the one in charge so they do not see the value in honest work. Also we have a generation of video game junkies that do not want to get off the couch and do any work

oldtiffie
02-02-2015, 07:34 AM
Perhaps its true at least in part that competent machinists have dropped out of the market as they reckon that the wages and conditions are just not "worth it".

Rosco-P
02-02-2015, 10:36 AM
Posts #52-54, all true. How many High Schools in the US no longer have auto mechanics, machine or wood shops because of liability issues and general lack of interest?

Mike Amick
02-02-2015, 01:56 PM
Not sure of wood and machine, but it appears to me that interest in auto mechanics
is alive and well. Drive down my street and you'll see kids working their Honda's
every other house. And they have to know a heck of a lot more than we did.

So I suspect its more the liability thing than the other.

Rich Carlstedt
02-02-2015, 02:35 PM
Here in Wisconsin, there is a tremendous demand for machinists and welders.
Some (!) of the education groups have responded.
Our local tech College has about 200 students in the Machining , CNC and Manufacturing Engineering programs
with probably close to a 100 % hiring history. Welding is even more in demand and is a separate program
The local high schools have some awesome programs , like De Pere and Green Bay where they run Formula one programs.
These kids design and build a race car ( 16 HP Limit) and then take it to a track to compete with other schools.
The program demands design, welding, and machining skills to be developed by these kids.
I have participated as a judge in some of the competition, and can say they leave no stone unturned !
At 16 to 18, they are using manual and CNC machines and CAD .. amazing
Here are some pics of what they build ...(from the ground up !) ( Takes sponsors to offset costs )
and a outline of the program
http://www.gbaps.org/hs/Preble/Activities/Academics/Pages/Formula-High-School-Team.aspx
http://formulahighschool.com/assets/2009-2010%20update/Team%20PDQ%20Update%208.pdf

Rich

EddyCurr
02-02-2015, 03:39 PM
57 posts across six pages and some 4,100 hits on this thread
bemoaning the state of the world.

No posts to and only 159 views of a thread created a few
weeks ago about someone who is doing something about
the problem.


Power of One: Calmar, AB Teacher Darren Roth (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/65707-Power-of-One-Calmar-AB-Teacher-Darren-Roth?p=960669)

Not everyone is in a position to step up and change the
world for the better. Still, it benefits those who ARE if
the peanut gallery sends some positive encouragement
in their direction.

The world is what we make of it, people. Push, pull or
get out of the way ...

.

Alistair Hosie
02-02-2015, 04:36 PM
Here in the Uk during Thatchers and then John major's premiership and then even Tony Bliar took there eyes firmly off the ball as far as training aprenticeships are concerned.
Their attitude was to let third world companies do the manual stuff and we in this country could all get expensive degrees at Universities up and down the land and end up making much more money than blue collar workers in the words of these peole manufacturing in Britain was finished and we would be much better concentrating on the finacial markets.Tony B,liar told us he was so confident that people would be earning fantastic salaries post university learning it would not be a problem to pay back sometimes way over thirty thousand pounds when the debts accrued.
There are tens of thousand of good young people who got degrees and are either totally unemployed, or who work at very menial tasks stacking shelves in supermarkets for minimum wages .Very quickly all of our machining and manufacturing equipment was sold of at scrap prices.Which were eagerly bought up by the Indians, and Chinese ,who bought them by the container.I kid you not,I know a guy who made himself a tidy sum doing this.
Only small lathes were sought after by hobbiests,all the other stuff went quickly.
Now there is a sudden demand for skilled tradesmen who don't exist.It is actually heartbreaking to watch.
All three of my sons got good degrees and only one got a job where he eventually became a Doctor a consultant in medicine in psychiatry.
His wife Lucie my lovely daughter in law, also is a doctor a consultant in psychiatry . As said they were married and bought a nice big house in a wealthy part of Glasgow.My other two sons my eldest for example got an honours degree in law he did dentistry then didn't like cutting up the cadavres and changed to law he worked for a while in London for an American law firm .He was looking forward to a good future also.
Then it all went pear shaped when the banks went bust.
The American law firm went back to America when it lost a number of major cliental contracts.
About a year ago,Bron and I gave him what would eventually become his anyway,that is his share of his inheritance from Bron and I.He bought two flats in glasgow and lives in one and rents the other he used the rest of the money to start up a small business to buy and sell tools and machinery which is slowly coming together.
Now compare that with my generation, (ask sir John) I left school in the sixties jobs were abundant and everyone who worked hard could buy a car then a house and have children.Two of my sons and as said millions of others simply cannot plan for their future there are no good paying jobs and buying a house after the recession it was nigh on impossible.
The kids need to have very large deposits now to buy property from very wary lenders,which because of the situation they simply can't materialize,This is truly heatbreaking .It almost seems hopeless.I long for the day we train the kids once more to become carpenters plumbers electrician Car mechanics ,machinists etc etc . etc.Is it as bad with you guys over the pond?Alistair

vincemulhollon
02-02-2015, 04:53 PM
Perhaps its true at least in part that competent machinists have dropped out of the market as they reckon that the wages and conditions are just not "worth it".

I believe you've found the problem. So I got this cousin, whats this kid gonna do, I hear all this propaganda about $100K/yr welding jobs and massive demand for welders and corporate types dehydrating themselves with crocodile tears about how they can't find anyone with the right skills... So, sounds good. The kid totally rebuilt a jeep, its not like he's an xbox kid. He has some brains (after all he's tangentially related to me). According to the propaganda this kid should do great as a welder.

So... as a point of comparison, we've all heard the propaganda about $100K welders and unfilled jobs, well, two decades ago, still in school for my CS degree, I got this CWA union tech job at a telco, and union base pay in mid 90s for a total noob technician was $33K/yr. Gas was like $1/gallon, my "fancy new car" was well under $20K, houses were like $100K, decent place to rent was exactly $425/mo, community college school tuition was payable at minimum wage part time (as I well knew, being previously employed at minimum wage part time while paying my own way without any school loans...). Life was pretty good.

OK so maybe I'll tell this kid to go into welding. I hear all this propaganda about $100K/yr jobs so I wonder where my cousin will work after graduation, like maybe we'll meet for lunch once in a while, you know? Pull up big list of jobs online... OK demands a couple trivial certs, and 3 yrs experience which he won't have, $28K/yr. WTF, must be a misprint and its $128K/yr, or $28K/month or something. Pull some more and see a trend, you're looking at about $20K/yr for machine operators and material handlers and uncert folks who aren't "real" welders and maybe $25K for my noob cousin after the local vocational is done with him, assuming he is successful at passing his certs. A dude with a pile of certs can TIG aluminum for about $50K, but thats the only job listed over $30K or so. So whats up with this? I was promised $100K/yr jobs in the propaganda, but reality on the ground is McDonalds wages?

Just to be explicit about it, as a noob union telco tech 20 years about I was getting $8K/yr more than my cousin could hope for as a brand new freshly minted welder... sorry kid I wouldn't go into welding if I were you, after all.

loose nut
02-02-2015, 05:16 PM
I believe you've found the problem. So I got this cousin, whats this kid gonna do, I hear all this propaganda about $100K/yr welding jobs

They do exist for welders and other trades, I had one. My last couple of years were well over 100K and some of the guys I worked with made twice that. The down side is that they are few and far between and naturally any openings get plugged right away by guys waiting to get those jobs. On top of that a lot of them are at the far side of nowhere, living in a camp and require great gobs of OT to make those wages. The cost of living in the surrounding areas where you are is usually so high that the pay advantage gets almost completely offset. It might sound good but ...............................

I was lucky, the cost of living were I am is low compared to many places so now that I am retired and my pension check took a steep nose dive off of a cliff (compared to my pay check) I can still afford to eat at least every other day.

vincemulhollon
02-02-2015, 05:29 PM
The down side is that they are few and far between and naturally any openings get plugged right away by guys waiting to get those jobs.

Its the pro sports market. Sure kids go practice basketball all afternoon, look at those huge NBA salaries. Of course 99.999% of you won't be getting NBA jobs LOL.

I can play similar disingenuous games with my bachelors in computer science, the current CEO of Yahoo also has a CS degree and makes about $25M/yr but I'm not going to tell impressionable kids looking for a career that there's a huge shortage of people with CS degrees and the pay for someone with a CS degree is $25M/yr.

justanengineer
02-02-2015, 08:23 PM
I hear all this propaganda about $100K/yr jobs so I wonder where my cousin will work after graduation, like maybe we'll meet for lunch once in a while, you know? Pull up big list of jobs online... OK demands a couple trivial certs, and 3 yrs experience which he won't have, $28K/yr. WTF, must be a misprint and its $128K/yr, or $28K/month or something. Pull some more and see a trend, you're looking at about $20K/yr for machine operators and material handlers and uncert folks who aren't "real" welders and maybe $25K for my noob cousin after the local vocational is done with him, assuming he is successful at passing his certs. A dude with a pile of certs can TIG aluminum for about $50K, but thats the only job listed over $30K or so. So whats up with this? I was promised $100K/yr jobs in the propaganda, but reality on the ground is McDonalds wages?


JME, but the guys I went through the local CC's welding program with range from ~$18/hr-high$20s/hr six years later. My cousin's husband hired into the boilermaker's union after high school as an apprentice, 11(?) years later he's in the mid-$30s/hr at a nuke plant.

JMO, but the internet is very different than reality. Post a resume on monster.com or one of the other online job boards and count the ratio of headhunters:actual companies that call you. The ads posted are similar. IME its 10:1 of "agencies" (ie. single headhunters working from home) that want some dope to take half a check while they take the other half, the actual hiring companies rarely post on those bc they have their own websites to post ads, so the "average wages" are rather dilluted with bs, kinda like ebay is with outrageous machine tool dealers. Beyond that, consider that most of the wages/salaries in those ads are only for a 40 hour week and dont consider overtime. Personally I dont know many tradesmen that only work 40/wk. My brother's a lineman and usually has 10-30 hours of mandatory OT/wk. When hurricane Sandy hit NYC he made almost $15k in two weeks, double-OT x 24hrs x 14 days, and there are many similarly crazy situatioins in other trades. Most of the local manufacturing plants here give 1.5x beyond 8/day or 40/wk, double OT Sundays, and often have special "holiday pay." Considering the better plants usually start the 18 year olds driving forklifts for ~$15/hr and a new 2500 ft2 house can be had for $150k (a cracker box in the hood goes for ~$30k), I'd say life is entirely dependent on the individual's willingness to work, relocate, and learn.

loose nut
02-03-2015, 05:15 PM
Most of the guys were I worked with, made a good living, were the ones in High school that got shoved into shop classes to be "baby sat" until graduation because the teachers etc. didn't think they were smart enough for anything else. It was a bit of a joke that we ended up making way more money then most of the "smart" kids we went to school with.

Jon Heron
02-03-2015, 05:41 PM
It was a bit of a joke that we ended up making way more money then most of the "smart" kids we went to school with.
Aint that the truth!
I started my electrical apprenticeship when I was 16, I couldn't get out of school fast enough. I have consistently made a better living then my friends who went on to acquire huge student loans (which is not a great way to start out in life IMO) while seldom finding good work in their fields.
While we are putting away money for an education fund for my 2 rug rats I will be encouraging them to get a trade as I feel its one of the best jobs going and there is always going to be work for tradesmen.
No matter what I decide to do in life I will always have my ticket to fall back on. With my current job I am doing 100K+ and plan to retire from here, but the future is wide open...
Cheers,
Jon

peekaboobus
02-03-2015, 05:49 PM
Most of the guys were I worked with, made a good living, were the ones in High school that got shoved into shop classes to be "baby sat" until graduation because the teachers etc. didn't think they were smart enough for anything else. It was a bit of a joke that we ended up making way more money then most of the "smart" kids we went to school with.

The teachers seriously did that?

The ones you should be glad to make more than, are the teachers.

danlb
02-03-2015, 05:50 PM
JMO, but the internet is very different than reality. Post a resume on monster.com or one of the other online job boards and count the ratio of headhunters:actual companies that call you. The ads posted are similar. IME its 10:1 of "agencies" (ie. single headhunters working from home) that want some dope to take half a check while they take the other half, the actual hiring companies rarely post on those bc they have their own websites to post ads, so the "average wages" are rather dilluted with bs, kinda like ebay is with outrageous machine tool dealers. Beyond that, consider that most of the wages/salaries in those ads are only for a 40 hour week and dont consider overtime.

Just want to throw in that while you are right about the huge number of head hunters online, the companies themselves also post there. I worked as a consultant at many fortune 500 companies where I saw that a phone company, national bank, online auction and many others posted on monster as well as the other sites. If they can avoid the head hunter fees they are ahead of the game. For temps, they prefer to use employment agencies to avoid tax hassles.

You were right on about the overtime in the high tech industries. Working 50 hours a week minimum on a salary just sucks. Made me long for the days when I was hourly and got time and a half, double time and a 3 hour minimum if they called me with a question.

Dan

loose nut
02-03-2015, 06:30 PM
The teachers seriously did that?

The ones you should be glad to make more than, are the teachers.

Teachers, guidance councilors, principals.

Just because they are suppose to be educators doesn't mean that they actually care about all their students. The smart one get attention the rest get pushed along or dumped by the side of the road.

I guess the big question is "what do they do now that there are not any shop classes left to dump these kids in these day".

peekaboobus
02-03-2015, 06:40 PM
Teachers, guidance councilors, principals.

Just because they are suppose to be educators doesn't mean that they actually care about all their students. The smart one get attention the rest get pushed along or dumped by the side of the road.

I guess the big question is "what do they do now that there are not any shop classes left to dump these kids in these day".

Thats true. Many don't. Its just a job to them. Yet if you don't pay them well, they go on strike. Shows you how much they care.

Not to mention the psychological impact. Basically they judged and weeded you out as the 'outcasts', so some of those 'outcasts' might feel unloved and develop emotional problems. Furthermore, it destroys their social interaction with their peers, because now your fellow students also see you as the 'outcasts' and thereby affecting how they interact with you socially. Its just a bad idea all around.

oldtiffie
02-03-2015, 07:42 PM
I could not care less about how "good" (like us) and "bad" (like everybody else) "machinists" come and go. It is just the "market" for "machinists" at work.

How it varies does not affect me at all so far as I can tell.

There are a whole range of "machinists" and "skill levels" - always has been.

There is no useful purpose in me complaining about it as it will not solve any problems - real and imagined. Same applies if I see fit to "join in" (which I sure don't - and won't).

I have no problem with going and buying a part or "thing" that I really do need if the cost and effort and time saved justifies it.

Otherwise it waits until it suits me to make or modify it.

My days of "making" stuff just for the sake of making (or modifying) something are long gone and they are not coming back!

A lot of my stuff is for minor repairs or experiments around the shop or property.

In a lot of cases I just have "practice runs" for "keeping my hand in" for processes say on machines, "feel" for measuring, with welding , cutting, grinding and fabrication etc.

In a lot of cases the materials can be new or from the "just in case" bin and after I've finished with it I either "bin" it or cut it up for further later use.

Many times I just want to try an idea out and perhaps explore options on/for it for something I've thought of or read about or "just want to see".

The only BBS I use is this one as I can see no need for me to use any others as this one is very good - and has an excellent Administrator (George B).

oldtiffie
02-03-2015, 10:23 PM
I don't live in the USA (I am in Australia) but I have not seen any sort/s of surveys or reports in the USA to support some of the assertions here regarding the numbers and locations of "Machinists" as well as their age/s, skill levels and whether the numbers of them is static, increasing or declining and at what rates.

I guess that "Machinists" need to be defined and also determined as to what sort of demographic they are or live in and what the ranges of wages/salaries/hourly rates are.

At least it should lift the quality of the discussion from a wide number of "think so's" to a better range of "know so's".

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=demographics+of+USA+machinists

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=demographics+of+USA

oldtiffie
02-05-2015, 08:21 PM
I don't live in the USA (I am in Australia) but I have not seen any sort/s of surveys or reports in the USA to support some of the assertions here regarding the numbers and locations of "Machinists" as well as their age/s, skill levels and whether the numbers of them is static, increasing or declining and at what rates.

I guess that "Machinists" need to be defined and also determined as to what sort of demographic they are or live in and what the ranges of wages/salaries/hourly rates are.

At least it should lift the quality of the discussion from a wide number of "think so's" to a better range of "know so's".

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=demographics+of+USA+machinists

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=demographics+of+USA


H-m-m-m.

I would have thought (hoped?) for more interest in these links from US Government reports of demographics regarding the numbers and locations and ages of and wages paid to "Machinists" in the USA.

After all there have been two recent threads on the situation in the USA regarding "Machinists" which also listed the skills needed to be classed as a "Machinist".

All I've heard since on this topic is "roars of silence".

Lew Hartswick
02-06-2015, 09:30 AM
"My mind is made up don't bother me with facts" don'tchya know. :-)
...lew...

dan s
02-06-2015, 11:26 AM
Imo, the real issue here is that for far to long people in first world countries have grown complacent, lazy, & arrogant. People graduate (high school or college), and think they are immediately going to be gifted a job that makes them middle class. The other issue is far to many people think they are worth more than they actually are, like the people who think McDonald's workers should make $15/hr. Having worked in fast food at one point during my life, the skill required to do the job (a child could do it) is not worth $15/hr.

Mike Amick
02-06-2015, 01:01 PM
I think the point is that nobody should be making LESS than 15 an hr. Wages have
not kept up with inflation. We went from a society that had one working parent
that made enough for a family to afford the basic needs of life, including a home,
to one where both parents must work and their combined income can still leave
them at the poverty level.

Not interested in steering down an ugly road, so I'll leave it at that.

dan s
02-06-2015, 02:10 PM
I think the point is that nobody should be making LESS than 15 an hr. Wages have
not kept up with inflation. We went from a society that had one working parent
that made enough for a family to afford the basic needs of life, including a home,
to one where both parents must work and their combined income can still leave
them at the poverty level.

Imo, pay should be based on two factors, the skill required to perform the task & how hazardous the work is. Having personally worked in fast food, I can't see anything I did being worth $15/hr today. The multi-income household is more common now, because the economy is global. Thus you aren't just competing with the guy down the street for a job, but with people all over the planet.

I could go on for ages on this topic, but I think a lot of the problem is related to what I originally posted. People today seem a lot more entitled. The days of putting your head down, and working hard to get to the top of the hill seem to be long gone.

parkcityflyer
02-06-2015, 09:12 PM
People may be reluctant to take up a career which doesn't pay enough to move out of mommy's basement.

Yes, it may be short-sighted, but we're talking about kids here. Then again, when a kid who could pass a drug test finally gets an interview, do the interviewers become irate because they couldn't sell the kid on a career in the trade? No apprenticeship, no pension, no health care? Two-tiered pay? Where do I sign up?

Except I'd have done it anyway.

Tom

PStechPaul
02-06-2015, 09:33 PM
According to the instructor for my classes in Machine Tools at CCBCMD there is a growing need for machinists, especially as the average age of those employed as such is about 50-55, so "new blood" will be needed. Perhaps it was just a "feel-good pep talk" to keep students enrolled and focused on the class, and IMHO the need will decline in the US as our manufacturing industry declines and more parts are made by CNC and robotics, and mostly farmed out to offshore companies who can compete with much lower wages. The phenomenon of single wage-earner families thriving in the 50s and 60s compared to two wage-earner families struggling now has much to do with rising energy costs, but perhaps more due to global competition and the unsustainable expectation of an eternally expanding economy. I have suggested establishing a four day 8 hour standard work week with 3 day weekends or Wednesdays off, with commensurate 20% reduction of pay, but 20% more job availability, and 50% more leisure time for everyone. But this would require a reduction of expectations for rather lavish lifestyles, and increased cooperation and sharing of resources. But the instructor pretty much laughed it off as a rant, and not a serious and effective solution.

RoyClemens
02-07-2015, 12:09 AM
Talent is always in demand, and talent will follow demand, talent can't be taught, it just is. There are plenty of talented kids out there all you got to do is show them the demand.


Roy

Tilaran
02-07-2015, 08:31 AM
Get rid of the computer control and I'll make anything you want on any machine you ask me to stand in front of.
Yeah. I'm an old fart.
When the computers die; the "machinists" of today wont stand a chance.
Kinda like the military"warriors" flying drones.
In a jungle they'd be dead in seconds.

loose nut
02-07-2015, 10:36 AM
The machinists will do great it is the cnc machine operators that won't do well.

It doesn't matter anyway because there is no way that computers are going away short of the "end of the world" scenario like a global pandemic that kills so many that society collapses or solar flares shuts down the electrical grid etc. Happy times.

lwalker
02-07-2015, 11:16 AM
our manufacturing industry declines and more parts are made by CNC and robotics

Not to cherry-pick statements, but that's a contradiction. Our manufacturing industry is not declining. It was saved by CNC and other automation. The point of industry is to make product, not to keep people employed.

justanengineer
02-07-2015, 01:38 PM
I think the point is that nobody should be making LESS than 15 an hr. Wages have
not kept up with inflation. We went from a society that had one working parent
that made enough for a family to afford the basic needs of life, including a home,
to one where both parents must work and their combined income can still leave
them at the poverty level.


Oh baloney. Life and wages have never been so good as today. Its easy to romanticize our past, but the simple fact is that the one-income household decades ago likely only had one car rather than the three that is common today, took fairly local and inexpensive road-trip vacations rather than flying cross-country/around the world multiple times per year, kids played with the magic "outside" for free rather than having thousands worth of game systems/tvs/computers, and college was only a dream for many rather than the norm it is today. Its also really easy to get caught up and feel sympathy for the poor McD's workers who work the bare minimum and make no effort to move forward in the world but the reality is that its a people problem, not a wage problem. My next door neighbor is a proud McD's employee making ~$70k/year and living pretty good bc of it. He worked there in school, put himself through college with it, worked his way up, and now manages several stores locally for a private franchisee. He'd gladly pay $15/hr to his employees, if they stayed more than a few years and were willing to take some responsbility as he did.

As for the definition of a machinist in the US, thats a difficult one bc it varies greatly from employer to employer. In my lil city some consider any button-pusher to be a machinist. OTOH the job shops refuse to acknowledge most folks whove only worked production. Personally I believe its something in between. My employers trained some real talent through production. We start them on the line, rotate them around through various cutting/drilling/heat treating stations then move them into tool grinding/sharpening, and eventually they get tossed into our reman/scrap salvage area where they have to do custom setups/programming based off the individual part and prints. After a decade or so I've no doubt they could hold their own in a job shop, the reman/salvage guys often do prototype work for me and others in engineering.

loose nut
02-07-2015, 03:54 PM
Not to cherry-pick statements, but that's a contradiction. Our manufacturing industry is not declining. It was saved by CNC and other automation. The point of industry is to make product, not to keep people employed.

That might be true up to a point but you got some of it wrong.

The point of Industry is to SELL product and when was the last time a CNC or any other automation ever bought anything. The fully automated factory may be wonderful in the eyes of the MBA managers but if no one has any money, because they are out of work, to buy what the factory makes (or pay taxes to keep the gov. afloat) then it will close down and the MBA's will be kickin' stones along with everybody else.

dan s
02-07-2015, 04:12 PM
The fully automated factory may be wonderful in the eyes of the MBA managers but if no one has any money, because they are out of work, to buy what the factory makes (or pay taxes to keep the gov. afloat) then it will close down and the MBA's will be kickin' stones along with everybody else.

Imo, The problem with with this line of though is that it's to simplistic. If a factory worker can't find work in a factory, then they should learn to do something else. The human mind is a powerful tool if the body it resides in actually uses it.

PStechPaul
02-07-2015, 07:01 PM
Perhaps one must remember that almost everyone who posts in forums such as this, and who have and use home shops or do work on machines as part of their job, are likely in the 95 percentile in terms of intelligence, skill, and work ethic. And the jobs that are now in demand are highly technical, and most people would not be able to obtain and keep such jobs. Many people have the ability to learn new skills to the extent that they can change jobs with a little bit of re-training, but there is likely a growing majority who cannot. There are many jobs that traditionally were in high demand and required very little skill, such as typists, key-punch operators, basic assembly line workers, stenographers, and such, but these have virtually disappeared. Many low paying jobs like burger flippers and cashiers could become scarce if automation were fully deployed, as it may be if the minimum wage is raised too high for such jobs.

Businesses exist to make money by selling products and services, and it's a competitive market. They only employ people to the extent that it helps them achieve those goals, and usually their prime motivation is immediate profit, and not the concept that a worker paid a higher wage will be able to afford their products and services. We may need to adjust to a stagnant or declining economy by accepting a lifestyle more like that which was the norm in the 50s and 60s, and it will actually prove beneficial and healthier to have more stay-at-home moms (or dads), more outdoor activities for kids, and even perhaps a 4 day work week with 3 day weekends.

oldtiffie
02-07-2015, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie View Post

I don't live in the USA (I am in Australia) but I have not seen any sort/s of surveys or reports in the USA to support some of the assertions here regarding the numbers and locations of "Machinists" as well as their age/s, skill levels and whether the numbers of them is static, increasing or declining and at what rates.

I guess that "Machinists" need to be defined and also determined as to what sort of demographic they are or live in and what the ranges of wages/salaries/hourly rates are.

At least it should lift the quality of the discussion from a wide number of "think so's" to a better range of "know so's".

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ss...USA+machinists

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ss...raphics+of+USA

H-m-m-m.

I would have thought (hoped?) for more interest in these links from US Government reports of demographics regarding the numbers and locations and ages of and wages paid to "Machinists" in the USA.

After all there have been two recent threads on the situation in the USA regarding "Machinists" which also listed the skills needed to be classed as a "Machinist".

All I've heard since on this topic is "roars of silence".

Well, it seems that I did hit a sore or responsive nerve "out there" to my post/s (above).

Many thanks for the many well thought out and diverse replies - much appreciated.

I subscribe to the international electronic daily version of the New York Times (NYT) and I saw the following article this morning (Sunday).

I thought it was in the same vein as the previous post and that others might like to consider and reply to it.

It seems that "employment" (and by association - "machinists") and jobs are looking up for the present and the foreseeable future, which if true - as it seems to me to be - then it will be good news for machinists too.

I hope so.

I'd appreciate comments and advice here as I am interested in the topic even though it refers to the USA situation and I am and out-sider looking in as I am in Australia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/07/business/economy/jobs-unemployment-figures.html?emc=edit_th_20150207&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=43497734

lwalker
02-07-2015, 10:09 PM
And the jobs that are now in demand are highly technical, and most people would not be able to obtain and keep such jobs.

I have to agree with this. I'm a software engineer who was a computer science tutor in college. It took me a while, but eventually I realized that some people simply can't program computers. They may be the smartest in their field, but they just don't have the deeply analytical mind that's required to break a problem up into a thousand buildable parts.

If it was just an education problem, then we could get better schools. But it's a human problem. And it worries me.

dan s
02-07-2015, 10:23 PM
I have to agree with this. I'm a software engineer who was a computer science tutor in college. It took me a while, but eventually I realized that some people simply can't program computers. They may be the smartest in their field, but they just don't have the deeply analytical mind that's required to break a problem up into a thousand buildable parts.

If it was just an education problem, then we could get better schools. But it's a human problem. And it worries me.

I agree and disagree. I"m a system architect and while a lot of people don't have the skill set to do what I do, I've been able to teach just about everyone who has wanted to learn some level of computer programming. While very few of them will ever be able to design applications, most of them could do low level grunt work coding. The biggest hurdle I always had was getting thinks into a context they could understand. My younger brother can't code to safe his life, but he makes more than I do, working as a systems administrator for Microsoft. I think what it really comes down to, is that to stay ahead of the curve today you must constantly be pushing yourself, constantly learning. Unfortunately, those traits very few in society seem to embrace.

loose nut
02-08-2015, 09:46 AM
Imo, The problem with with this line of though is that it's to simplistic. If a factory worker can't find work in a factory, then they should learn to do something else. The human mind is a powerful tool if the body it resides in actually uses it.

How would that displaced factory worker get a job when computers and machines are replacing workers and companies off shoring work what else is left. The next job of many is going to be taking what they need from those that have it.

Rosco-P
02-08-2015, 09:54 AM
I agree and disagree. I"m a system architect and while a lot of people don't have the skill set to do what I do, I've been able to teach just about everyone who has wanted to learn some level of computer programming. While very few of them will ever be able to design applications, most of them could do low level grunt work coding. The biggest hurdle I always had was getting thinks into a context they could understand. My younger brother can't code to safe his life, but he makes more than I do, working as a systems administrator for Microsoft. I think what it really comes down to, is that to stay ahead of the curve today you must constantly be pushing yourself, constantly learning. Unfortunately, those traits very few in society seem to embrace.


How would that displaced factory worker get a job when computers and machines are replacing workers and companies off shoring work what else is left. The next job of many is going to be taking what they need from those that have it.

Exactly! What sectors of the workplace are expanding, what "industries" and what would those other jobs be in?



I agree and disagree. I"m a system architect and while a lot of people don't have the skill set to do what I do, ........

Wrong, there's a hundred PHD holders in Mumbai that can do what you do and for a whole lot less.
Wait till they offshore your job, you'll be singing a different tune.

dan s
02-08-2015, 11:00 AM
How would that displaced factory worker get a job when computers and machines are replacing workers and companies off shoring work what else is left. The next job of many is going to be taking what they need from those that have it.

It depends on where you live, but around here lots of jobs that involve using a computer in some fashion. Ten years ago I got a job right out of college as a billing auditor. It didn't require a degree of any kind, and frankly is was mind numbingly boring work (spreadsheet juggling), but it paid the bills and got my foot in the door. A lot of windmills have gone up around here in the last decade, and it seems they are always looking for people maintain them. Carpenters, electricians, plumbers, auto mechanics etc are still in demand in my area, most likely because you can't off-shore a job that has to be close to the customer.




Wrong, there's a hundred PHD holders in Mumbai that can do what you do and for a whole lot less.
Wait till they offshore your job, you'll be singing a different tune.

I'm sorry to tell you, but they have tried to off shore my job, and it didn't work. The people they found that cost half what I do, couldn't "really" do the work. The ones that could quickly got raises or moved on to other companies willing to pay them more. after a year or so, The cost savings of off shoring was nullified by the raises, turnover (over there), & the costs of dealing with customers 12 time zones away.

My dad went through a similar issue in his industry (steel). In the late 90's when the Chinese, eastern European, & Russian steel industries killed off large chunks of the US steel industry. My dad actually lost his job for several months, and then after short stints in other mills, he got a good job again in California (3 timezones away). For almost a year he lived there, while my mother, brother and I stayed in IL. When My brother finished high school he and my mom moved to Cali, and I stayed here to finish college. The problem with his industry was companies had gotten fat, lazy, & rich producing low grade stuff like re-bar & structural steel. He has worked a few places since then, but he always made sure he works at a plant that produced Steel other countries can't produce and sell cheaper (exotic alloy & auto). He recently took what will probably be his last job. He's now a refractories salesman for a Japanese company. I think he has done really well for someone who had nothing more than a high school diploma from a small town in Pa that's not even on some maps.

The most important thing I've learned from my dad is to keep learning and growing, so that I can adapt and overcome the obstacles that get in my way.

Rosco-P
02-08-2015, 12:33 PM
I'm sorry to tell you, but they have tried to off shore my job, and it didn't work. The people they found that cost half what I do, couldn't "really" do the work. The ones that could quickly got raises or moved on to other companies willing to pay them more. after a year or so, The cost savings of off shoring was nullified by the raises, turnover (over there), & the costs of dealing with customers 12 time zones away.

Sorry, they just haven't figured it out yet. When they do, cost, perceived cost savings, customer impact, time zones, etc. won't matter. Lived through this happening with the largest financial service company in the world.

No one is safe from the bean counters. Especially in a publicly held company, you know "Value for the shareholder...".

dan s
02-08-2015, 03:18 PM
Sorry, they just haven't figured it out yet. When they do, cost, perceived cost savings, customer impact, time zones, etc. won't matter. Lived through this happening with the largest financial service company in the world.

No one is safe from the bean counters. Especially in a publicly held company, you know "Value for the shareholder...".

If that day ever comes, I'll adapt and move on.

Axkiker
02-08-2015, 05:44 PM
If you want a job that has little likely hood of being off shored make sure it requires the ability to communicate. I run teams of offshore developers for my job. Many of them are great at what they do and could probably give some of my on shore guys a run for their money. Ultimately they just aren't good at communicating with the end business user. Its nothing against them, there is just too much of a language barrier combined with culture differences.

loose nut
02-08-2015, 06:51 PM
If that day ever comes, I'll adapt and move on.

Where to, India?

Rosco-P
02-08-2015, 06:59 PM
If that day ever comes, I'll adapt and move on.


Where to, India?

Well played!

Juergenwt
02-08-2015, 07:23 PM
I wrote this two years ago. Nothing has changed. Juergen
We have gone thru this discussion many times. All the pro-and contra of apprenticeship programs under government supervision with government tax support and depending on a persons political vie point the opinions range from full support to leave it alone.
One thing is for sure, as long as there are no nation wide coordinated programs and tests we don't even know what constitutes a machinist, mold maker, tool and die maker etc. etc.. For everyone that knows his stuff and is really good in his field there many who think they are the cream of the crop when in all reality they don't even come close. There is an abundance of highly qualified (or so the think) people posting on this forum and others. Who really knows? As far as working with others and finding yourselves superior - just remember that among the blind the one eyed is a king.

So what to do? As long as there exists an attitude among many owners of small small to middle class shops for making it to sixty-five than sell and live happily ever after in Florida we will most likely see a further decline in the number of people calling for a government supported training program. Big industry will continue to dumb down manufacturing to the lowest denominator and rely on skilled labor from overseas to supply them with ever more sophisticated machinery to do the job. Why promote training? After all we are making parts - and we assemble.
Remember when in the 70's a new wave of CEO's entered the market. Fresh out of Universities and Business schools and the very first thing to go was TRAINING PROGRAMS. Trade schools closed and the bottom line of many companies improved - for a short time. Than they sold out!