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vpt
02-15-2015, 08:10 AM
Seems to be quite the talk about vaccines lately. I won't start off by saying if I am for it or not in hopes not to sway the direction of the thread. I am just curious what the brains here have to say about vaccines. Do you vaccinate? Do you not vaccinate? Why, why not, is it good?

michigan doug
02-15-2015, 09:20 AM
Yes, my kid got vaccinated. I'm a doctor and a scientist. The science is overwhelmingly in favor of vaccinations. Vaccinations don't cause autism. Yes, there can be complications from vaccinations. They are rare and mostly not serious. Occasionally, kids die from it. But if we don't vaccinate the vast majority of the population, lots and lots and lots more will be damaged or die from infectious disease.

It's simple and overwhelming math. I don't get why it's controversial.


doug

ikdor
02-15-2015, 09:25 AM
I hope this thread will stay non-political for long enough to get some sensible contributions.
As a father of two small kids I don't understand why someone would intentionally risk them dying or suffering a disease like polio. I guess nowadays most people have never seen the results of these diseases and figure they don't need it.
Unfortunately this is a slow darwinian effect, it only kills the kids of people choosing not to vaccinate and not the parents themselves.

I live in the bible belt in the netherlands and we had a small measles outbreak a while ago. 180 kids were hospitalised, but thanks to modern medicine only one died. This unfortunately reinforces their idea they don't need the vaccines to stay alive. Well, until we get a polio outbreak, that wouldn't be pretty.

People claim it's their own choice to not vaccinate, but they then take their kids to the same daycare where 3 month old kids go who havent had all their shots yet. It's irresponsible in my view.

It once again shows ignorance is not bliss, it's outight dangerous for society.

Igor

flylo
02-15-2015, 09:29 AM
All machines get a good vaccine of Kroil. But to the question I think all kids were vaccinated when I grew up as well as my sons now 24 & 28 with no ill effects. Rotary has been trying to erraticate polio for 30 years & still hasn't. Some Amish had an outbreak in Minnisota about 5 years ago. I think the risk of getting diesese far outway the risk of the vaccine IMHO.

bborr01
02-15-2015, 09:51 AM
I know a couple who always seemed to march to the beat of a different drummer. They went vegetarian like 35 years ago, long before it was mainstream like it is today. They also chose not to vaccinate their kids or send them to school. (home schoolers) Eventually they wanted to send the oldest one to school and they wouldn't take the child because of no immunizations. They relented and got them vaccinated. The kids are all adults now and as normal as anyone.

For the life of me I can't figure out why some people won't vaccinate their children.

Brian

rws
02-15-2015, 10:30 AM
I personally won't get a flu shot, or any other vaccine. I never had kids, but if I did, I would take a serious look at the situation. One thing I do know, I would never let my kid get the "cocktail" of numerous hits at one time. They would be spaced out. Since this whole subject became the hot topic of late, a local doctor got on the radio and said in one of the major school districts/counties, a child would get over 40 doses of vaccine for I think 14 different diseases in the course of growing up. that is amazing.

I will say this, this subject can be VERY opinionated, VERY arguementative.

Fasttrack
02-15-2015, 10:48 AM
Yes, my kid got vaccinated. I'm a doctor and a scientist. The science is overwhelmingly in favor of vaccinations. Vaccinations don't cause autism. Yes, there can be complications from vaccinations. They are rare and mostly not serious. Occasionally, kids die from it. But if we don't vaccinate the vast majority of the population, lots and lots and lots more will be damaged or die from infectious disease.

It's simple and overwhelming math. I don't get why it's controversial.


doug

Absolutely.

The average life span and quality of life has, by and large, been improving thanks to advances in medicine, including vaccines. There is no science that supports the decision not vaccinate your children and a wealth of scientific evidence that suggests you ABSOLUTELY should vaccinate.

For a less scientific read, check out this article written by someone who grew up without vaccines. It is well written and quite rational. I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic to spend 10 minutes and read it.

http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/growing-up-unvaccinated/

Georgineer
02-15-2015, 10:55 AM
I've had friends and colleagues who were survivors of polio and foetal rubella. My kids were vaccinated in childhood (as was I).

George

Black Forest
02-15-2015, 10:58 AM
My wife vaccinates all our horses, dogs and cats. Me she thinks she can replace easily so its not worth the money!:cool:

flylo
02-15-2015, 11:09 AM
Absolutely.

The average life span and quality of life has, by and large, been improving thanks to advances in medicine, including vaccines. There is no science that supports the decision not vaccinate your children and a wealth of scientific evidence that suggests you ABSOLUTELY should vaccinate.

For a less scientific read, check out this article written by someone who grew up without vaccines. It is well written and quite rational. I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic to spend 10 minutes and read it.

http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/growing-up-unvaccinated/

Good read! I fly with a friend from South Africa who claims his grandmother made him eat a spoonful of dirt daily to built him imunity. I'd take the vaccine over daily dirt.

lakeside53
02-15-2015, 12:12 PM
Unfortunately this is a slow darwinian effect, it only kills the kids of people choosing not to vaccinate and not the parents themselves.


Igor

Not quite true - measles and many other vaccines can't be given until you are a year old, so it can affect the rest of the "new generation" badly.

I don't buy the "it's my choice" argument. It should be mandatory for "certain" contagious diseases if you want to live IN society. In any group, you have certain rules to obey (many...). Fine, choose not to live with the rest of us and move to a special place we'll set up on say Bikini Atoll. Oh wait, we don't "own" that - how about the center of Nevada or Hanford :)

It's bit tricky though.. what do you vaccinate for? We don't routinely vaccinate for Tuberculosis any more, but was still pretty bad when I was a kid. If it did resurface in the general population, it would be nasty - today's bad stains are antibiotic resistant. Then we'd get into the "who sets the rules" for what's in and out?

I had many of the childhood diseases - pre vaccination availability - and polio was rampant when I was young. I survived, but not all did. My mother lost two sisters to scarlet fever, and there were several other child deaths in the extended family. .

krutch
02-15-2015, 12:23 PM
I was told not to get the flu vaccine after getting an aftermarket liver. I am on immune suppressant drugs for the remainder of my life. I have gotten some kind of nose running and some times chest congestion usually during winter but no serious sickness. Hope it is not just luck that spares me real illness.
I think the biggest issue with vaccines is they are mostly made outside the US and quality control has lacked in production or shipping processes. Regulation has made in country testing and production of vaccines costly to the point most have either gone over seas or cease to involve it the making of them. People are wary after it has been shown some vaccines are of lesser quality. And claims of asthma or other conditions from vaccines has not helped. One of the recent flu vaccines proved to be ineffective for the strain it was engineered against.
When ADA is in full control of the med system one will not easily be able to sue for injuries from medical issues. It is rare that judgments are won against government. At least not with out very high expenditures and investment in time.

jep24601
02-15-2015, 01:21 PM
Absolutely.

The average life span and quality of life has, by and large, been improving thanks to advances in medicine, including vaccines.

http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/growing-up-unvaccinated/

Actually average life span and quality of life has experienced a much greater improvement thanks to engineering - mainly water supply and sanitation.

wierdscience
02-15-2015, 01:31 PM
Look at the family plots in any old cemetary and before 1950 or so you will find many more headstones for children,I think that says it all.

A.K. Boomer
02-15-2015, 01:32 PM
We actually have some headstones around here that state "killed by indians"

danlb
02-15-2015, 01:34 PM
I'm 100% in favor of vaccines.

My reason is simple; If a certain percentage of people are vaccinated, there will be no epidemic even if the vaccine is only 70% effective. I remember measle outbreaks when I was a kid where EVERYONE who was exposed for the first time caught it. It was miserable and sometimes fatal. You get vaccinated to protect everyone, not just yourself.

People talk about the flu vaccine as being ineffective because it covers specific strains, and the flu that ends up getting people is not one covered by the vaccine. What those people don't realize is that without the vaccine, those other strains would have spread further and faster and done much more damage.

So I'm all for vaccines. Flu, HPV, DTP... all of them.

Dan

wierdscience
02-15-2015, 01:35 PM
We actually have some headstones around here that state "killed by indians"



We've got some that say "killed during the war of northern aggression" a lot less than Polio,TB etc though.

A.K. Boomer
02-15-2015, 01:48 PM
There's tons of them that are both mother and newborn, even just basic childbirth was a huge role of the dice...

cameron
02-15-2015, 02:07 PM
The odds are overwhelmingly against any specific person winning big in a lottery. People buy tickets because they think they might be the lucky ones.

Most people know the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccination. Some don't vaccinate their children because , by the same irrational thinking that leads people to buy lottery tickets, they think they are the ones who will be unlucky.

And, of course, a small number of people who do vaccinate will be unlucky.

Fasttrack
02-15-2015, 02:07 PM
Actually average life span and quality of life has experienced a much greater improvement thanks to engineering - mainly water supply and sanitation.

Very true! My statement should have read:

"The average life span and quality of life has, by and large, been improving thanks IN PART to advances in medicine, including vaccines".

Black_Moons
02-15-2015, 02:08 PM
It took 5 grown adults to hold me down when I was 8 and got my last shot. Its left me with life long trauma and I can no longer get ANY needles without having a major panic attack that resembles a seizure.

Thanks a lot $@#@tard school nurse. Makes getting dental work ohhh so much more fun when you have to do it under general or without any anesthetic.

Ever gotten multiple fillings done without any anesthesia? I have.

Whatever you do, Don't let the schools inject your children. they are untrained idiots who couldn't find a vein on a human anatomy chart and shouldn't be let within 50 feet of a kid. Go to a real doctor, WITH your kid. And ask how good they are at needles. Even some doctors/nurses just suck at giving them and no kid wants to be stuck 10 times to find the vein.

SGW
02-15-2015, 02:14 PM
Absolutely vaccinate. The odds overwhelmingly favor it. I suppose one can find a reason not to vaccinate if one looks hard enough, but the chances of whatever it is happening are miniscule compared to the risks of not being vaccinated.
I had an uncle who refused to wear a seat belt. He said he wanted to be able to get out in case there was a fire. He could never get the concept that he would be far more likely to be in a condition such that he could get out if he wore a seat belt, than if he didn't. There could conceivably be a case in which a seat belt trapped you in the car, but it's highly unlikely.

Mark Rand
02-15-2015, 03:50 PM
I've been a type 1 diabetic for 50 years since age 7. Currently average 6-7 injections per day. I get Flu vaccinations every year these days. I've twice had flu and in both cases it damn near killed me. When working abroad I had vaccinations for everything the works doctor could get. vaccination is common sense for the individual and sound economics for the employer and the country.

bborr01
02-15-2015, 04:03 PM
I think the type of person who refuses to wear a seat belt is the same type of person who will refuse to have their children vaccinated. Some people just don't like to be told what to do no matter how much it is in their best interest.

That's usually where Darwins law comes into play.

Brian

flylo
02-15-2015, 05:41 PM
Seems to be quite the talk about vaccines lately. I won't start off by saying if I am for it or not in hopes not to sway the direction of the thread. I am just curious what the brains here have to say about vaccines. Do you vaccinate? Do you not vaccinate? Why, why not, is it good?

OK, VPT what's your stand on vaccines?

justanengineer
02-15-2015, 06:30 PM
I got stuck about a dozen times every year I was in the military bc the medics were talented at two things - sticking folks with needles and losing shot-records. I also volunteered to get immunized for everything imaginable - small pox, anthrax, u-name-it, and had a few interesting adventures traveling bc of it. Not surprising, I was never sick for most of that decade. Now back in civilian life I get sick every dam year and its rare that I can talk my doc into anything more than a flu shot.

MrSleepy
02-15-2015, 06:55 PM
I do not take flu shots ...its a witches brew of best guesses as to which variants to include ..so even having a shot doesnt mean you are protected... And I'm fit and healthy anyway.


I have been vaccinated as most have... and we need everyone to be so (>84% for most vaccines).. otherwise the herd coverage isnt high enough to give protection and its not worth doing.


Where I live on the UKs East Coast we have the highest influx of Romanian,Bulgarian and Polish immigrants in the UK... and the new cases of drug resistant TB they are bringing are scary. Raised from virtually none 10 yrs ago ..to now where its wise to wear a mask when visiting the local super surgeries.

Rob

Alistair Hosie
02-15-2015, 07:40 PM
We actually have some headstones around here that state "killed by indians"
Yes we will soon have some saying killed by the pakistani's. Alistair

oldtiffie
02-15-2015, 08:23 PM
Perhaps its only a thin line between logic and paranoia with topics such as this.

People will talk to (or at?) each other but many will not change their minds one way or the other.

mickeyf
02-15-2015, 09:04 PM
"To vaccinate or not" is a debate that should be no more necessary than "Is the world flat". But apparently quite a few people do believe that the world is flat. Ask your vaccine doubter to look up (and understand) the term "herd immunity" - although that's science too, and that alone is enough to make some people disagree.

J. Randall
02-15-2015, 09:20 PM
I imagine we will end up with a Federal law addressing this before it is over. My personal opinion is that if the Feds had been enforcing the laws pertaining to immigration and secure borders we would not even be having this discussion. I am old enough to remember the tail end of the polio epidemic, I think we got our first dose as an amber colored liquid on a sugar cube, no shots involved. I had most of the other diseases as did my siblings, including 2 kinds of measles, mumps, chicken pox, and whooping cough.
James

Yukon
02-15-2015, 09:26 PM
In basic training we got a whole mess of shots ,and a bunch more when we shipped ov er seas. I will turn 70 this year and am no worse for it .Had my 3 kids vaccinated and get a flu shot every year.

danlb
02-15-2015, 10:09 PM
I do not take flu shots ...its a witches brew of best guesses as to which variants to include ..so even having a shot doesnt mean you are protected... And I'm fit and healthy anyway.


Isn't it logical that the witches brew is working just as it should? Imagine Flu A, B and C are in the shot. Most people get it. Those three will have a much lower infection rate than they would otherwise have. As a result most people who get sick get a variant Flu D - which shows up late in the season. No one makes the connection that without the shot they may have caught virus A and B and maybe even C too. If enough people were vaccinated you will not even be exposed to A, B or C.

Dan

PStechPaul
02-15-2015, 10:27 PM
I have not always gotten the flu vaccine and I never seemed to get the flu either way. This season I got the shot and I had some variant of the flu over the Christmas holidays. I don't go out very much since I work from home, and my house is usually too cold for germs to thrive. But I was taking classes once a week and since one gets infected by others, that may explain my unusual illness. Also, this year's vaccine was apparently only 25% effective rather than the usual 50% or better.

Most (perhaps all) vaccines are administered by injection into the muscles and not into a vein, so very little skill with a needle is needed. I have had some bad experience with IVs, however, and it does take a certain "knack" or technique to enter a vein on the first jab.

There is some controversy over the vaccinations required for dogs and other pets. Rabies is, of course, a major concern, but the guidelines and regulations vary by state and municipality. Usually the side effects are minor and mostly just temporary inflammation of the injection site. The effectiveness of the vaccine is probably a lot longer than the 2-3 year typical cycle.

I find that the injection of anesthetic for dental procedures is often more painful than the procedures themselves, and the unpleasant numbness lasts for hours, so I often opt to forgo the anesthesia and endure the few seconds of pain from drilling. However, I gladly welcomed the numbness when I had a root canal and extractions, especially the most recent which involved much cutting of the gums and even the jaw bone where the roots had become embedded. And I went in with the expectation of just having a loose crown on that tooth re-cemented.

Jim Hubbell
02-15-2015, 10:37 PM
My dad contracted polio at around seven or eight years of age. Lost the use of both legs. My turn came in the late thirties. Damn near killed me. Was luckiy though, and was able to live a fairly normal life.
When the polio vaccine came out the wife, children and I took it every time it came around.
It is my considered opinion that everyone avail them selves of the vaccines available.

Old Time
02-15-2015, 11:48 PM
After reading this thread, I feel the need to write. I contracted polio in 1946 at the age of three, after many surgeries and physical therapy I walk with two full length braces and crutches. My mother made sure my brothers and I got the Salk vaccine and the later one with the sugar cube. My fear is this, at 70 years of age it's hard to find a doctor thats even seen a polio victim. I suspect that the day will come when we have another polio epidemic, the doctors are going to be a lost ball in tall grass trying to treat it. Trust me, when you've been there you get your vaccinations.
Old Time

flylo
02-16-2015, 01:12 AM
Some good info. Polio shouuld have been gone by 2000 but from lack of education, fear, & the issue this thread has brought out it's not quite done, but soon.
https://www.rotary.org/myrotary/en/take-action/end-polio

lakeside53
02-16-2015, 01:40 AM
After reading this thread, I feel the need to write. I contracted polio in 1946 at the age of three, after many surgeries and physical therapy I walk with two full length braces and crutches. My mother made sure my brothers and I got the Salk vaccine and the later one with the sugar cube. My fear is this, at 70 years of age it's hard to find a doctor thats even seen a polio victim. I suspect that the day will come when we have another polio epidemic, the doctors are going to be a lost ball in tall grass trying to treat it. Trust me, when you've been there you get your vaccinations.
Old Time

yes... I asked my doctor last year if he's ever seen a case of tetanus (as I was getting a booster shot)... nope.. but he also added - he was happy not to have. Did admit though he probably wouldn't recognize the early symptoms either..

becksmachine
02-16-2015, 01:59 AM
Yes and no.

I have never taken "the flu" as seriously as some. I am sure I have had it in the past, will probably get it in the future, but it hasn't killed me yet. I consider it to be more of an inconvenience rather than a life threatening condition.

But I consider smallpox, polio, pertussis, tetanus etc. to be in a different category as far as consequences are concerned, and I believe it is socially indefensible to advocate the fear mongering that seems to be the essence of the anti-vaccinate movement.

Dave

Deus Machina
02-16-2015, 04:28 AM
I'm up on my vaccines, and anything to do with needles requires a multi-day psych-up for me. I got $40 for donating plasma once and it still needed a very convincing friend to coax me and promise to buy lunch.

Otherwise, let me put it this way: anti-vaccine types and anyone wearing a trilby have already lost all respect for plenty of other unrelated reasons.

CarlByrns
02-16-2015, 06:48 AM
The big problem is some people would rather believe a movie star than a medical doctor.

My wife, sis-in-law, and daughter are nurses. The (grand) kids in our family get every appropriate vaccine right on schedule.

rws
02-16-2015, 07:07 AM
This has become what I thought it would, opinionated. Most level headed people know there are always two sides to everything.

Jon Rappoport
February 15, 2015

“Lacking any real science proving we have a serious 2015 measles outbreak, and lacking any science supporting the idea that the measles vaccine is safe and effective, we’re looking at a psyop called The Disney Story. A fake horror movie happening at ‘the happiest place on Earth,’ Disneyland. It’s a perfect way to scare the moms into vaccinating their kiddies. If the happiest place on Earth isn’t safe, then where is safety? ‘Mickey Mouse infects children.’ Cue the ominous music. ‘Cotton candy dream turns into nightmare.’ ‘Send in the clowns, carriers of the virus.’” (The Underground, Jon Rappoport)

150 measles cases. No deaths.

Dangerous outbreak? Are you kidding?

Mainstream media recalling past problems with the measles vaccine? Are you kidding? The news brushes off what happened 24 hours ago.

Medical scholars and historians are no better. Most of them operate on behalf of entrenched money; and that money wants the population to believe all vaccines are remarkably safe and effective.

What follows are several past statements and reports about the measles vaccine and measles. In a half-sane society that tried to live up to its laws, these statements would spark deep investigations. But we have a different kind of society…

“In 1977, 34 new cases of measles were reported on the campus of UCLA, in a population that was supposedly 91% immune [via vaccination], according to careful serological testing. Another 20 cases of measles were reported in the Pecos, New Mexico, area within a period of a few months in 1981, and 75% of them had been fully immunized, some of them quite recently. A survey of sixth-graders in a well-immunized urban community revealed that about 15% of this age group are still susceptible to rubella [German measles], a figure essentially identical with that of the pre-vaccine era.” (Richard Moskowitz, MD, The Case Against Immunizations, 1983, American Institute of Homeopathy.)

“The combined death rate from scarlet fever, diphtheria, whooping cough and measles among children up to fifteen shows that nearly 90 percent of the total decline in mortality between 1860 and 1965 had occurred before the introduction of antibiotics and widespread immunization. In part, this recession may be attributed to improved housing and to a decrease in the virulence of micro-organisms, but by far the most important factor was a higher host-resistance due to better nutrition.” Ivan Illich, Medical Nemesis, Bantam Books, 1977

“By the (U.S.) government’s own admission, there has been a 41% failure rate in persons who were previously vaccinated against the (measles) virus.” (Dr. Anthony Morris, John Chriss, BG Young, ‘Occurrence of Measles in Previously Vaccinated Individuals,’ 1979; presented at a meeting of the American Society for Microbiology at Fort Detrick, Maryland, April 27, 1979.)

“Prior to the time doctors began giving rubella (measles) vaccinations, an estimated 85% of adults were naturally immune to the disease (for life). Because of immunization, the vast majority of women never acquire natural immunity (or lifetime protection).” (Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, Let’s Live, December 1983, as quoted by Carolyn Reuben in LA WEEKLY, June 28, 1985.)

“Administration of KMV (killed measles vaccine) apparently set in motion an aberrant immunologic response that not only failed to protect children against natural measles, but resulted in heightened susceptibility.” JAMA Aug. 22, 1980, vol. 244, p. 804, Vincent Fulginiti and Ray Helfer. The authors indicate that such falsely protected children can come down with “an often severe, atypical form of measles. Atypical measles is characterized by fever, headache… and a diverse rash (which)… may consist of a mixture of macules, papules, vesicles, and pustules… ”

This last statement is particularly troubling. It suggests that vaccination can increase the likelihood of catching measles; and when that does happen, the illness is far more serious than the ordinary type.

So-called medical experts and PR front men for vaccines are banking on an ignorant population composed of compliant androids.

Mainstream media aren’t the only culprits. Find one course in one college or medical school in America titled: “Vaccines Pro and Con, the Full Story.” You can’t? The very idea of such a course is ludicrous? That’s no accident.

vpt
02-16-2015, 09:07 AM
OK, VPT what's your stand on vaccines?



My kids get the bare minimum to be able to go to school.

The last time I got any shot was when I was around 9 years old. By the time I got to the car in the parking lot I nearly collapsed. I was sick for 20 days and nearly died. I never did nor never will get any shot ever again. I rarely get sick and when I do it doesn't last long. Just a couple weeks ago my whole family passed around some sort of "flu" that I never got even though I kissed my wife every day even when she was sick.

What scares me the most about vaccines now is the unknown. I don't know what is in them, last I heard there is mercury in the shots? They come from other countries, they are not effective, and like every one of those pill commercials you see on TV the side effects and possible complications are a much much longer list than the benefits.

I am one of those that would rather be away from people. I would like to live in the sticks and not see another person. No one telling me what to do, what to eat, what to inject into my body, and stuff like that. No I am not a tree huger type, I hunt, fish, trap, and like to live off the land and do things "the old way".

alanganes
02-16-2015, 09:31 AM
This has become what I thought it would, opinionated. Most level headed people know there are always two sides to everything.
<Stuff snipped>

So-called medical experts and PR front men for vaccines are banking on an ignorant population composed of compliant androids.


Well of course it's become "opinionated", if someone solicits opinions, that's what they will get. Your closing remark (above) is every bit as opinionated as those posted by others who hold a different view. No shock there, and no big conspiracy.

vpt
02-17-2015, 08:24 AM
What I am curious to know is stuff like what is in the vaccines, what each of those ingredients do, is it true there is mercury in them? Are they effective? Technical and scientific stuff like that. I would like to (and I am sure others) learn about vaccines, how they work, whats in them, where they come from and everything.

I asked George to reopen this thread under the terms that it stays under control (no pissing matches) so hopefully everyone can learn truths about vaccines and actually learn the whats about them. There are some very smart people here and I hoped some light could be shed on a topic that has doubt and mysteries.

bborr01
02-17-2015, 08:28 AM
I'm glad to see this thread get opened up again. I recall the "scary news" thread a few years ago that went on for months. This forum seems to have lost some of the traffic that it used to get and sometimes off topic threads like this are what it takes to keep people coming back.

Brian

flylo
02-17-2015, 09:39 AM
Let me add one thing, anytime you or your family get poked for a shot, blood draw,etc make sure the person doing it sterilizes the skin, make them do it at least twice as normal as I almost died from MRSA I think I got getting a blood draw for a physical. A MRSA specialist told me to insist on wiping the area 100 times with 3 different wipes but try to get someone to do that. I've watched some very unsanitary things happen in hospitals & doctors offices. People get complacent as some do in any job & it could & does cost lives. I've read the 3rd leading cause of death is going to the hospital. So be the jerk they complain about & make them do it right.

boslab
02-17-2015, 10:16 AM
I'm recently out of hospital, they swab you going in and coming out here, if you show positive you get put in a single room away from a ward, I don't know if the US uses wards, like 6 beds in a large room, it is better if your convalescing as you do get to talk to someone.
Mark

Rosco-P
02-17-2015, 10:25 AM
Yes, I vaccine.
I keep my Tetanus inoculation up to date as well. VPT you work with metal and on vehicles and do not? You know what the cure for Tetanus is, don't you?

vpt
02-17-2015, 11:09 AM
Yes, I vaccine.
I keep my Tetanus inoculation up to date as well. VPT you work with metal and on vehicles and do not? You know what the cure for Tetanus is, don't you?



That is another curiosity I have. All my life I was told to avoid rust and open wounds and whatnot. However over my life I have had open wounds take in gas, oil, grease, dirt, gravel, aluminum, stainless, copper, titanium, rust, every kind of water imaginable (tap, lake, river, sewage cow holes etc), I have had wood, grass, plastic, hair, glass, lead, rubber, paint chemicals, gun cleaners, acids, you name it enter my body threw different wounds threw my life. Now maybe I am just lucky but I have never once had an adverse effect from any of it yet.

People have witnessed some of these and told me I was guarantied to get an infection and maybe lose a limb, still have all my limbs and digits.

It makes me curious as to what happens differently that at some point I would get an infection, lose a limb, or have to get a tetanus shot? What would be different between all those other times and that one time that something actually happens?

Rosco-P
02-17-2015, 11:52 AM
Now maybe I am just lucky but I have never once had an adverse effect from any of it yet.

It makes me curious as to what happens differently that at some point I would get an infection, lose a limb, or have to get a tetanus shot? What would be different between all those other times and that one time that something actually happens?

Yes, you've been lucky, Tetanus bacteria is all over the place and it's no normal infection. It's not just the "be careful around rusty metal thing".

Rustybolt
02-17-2015, 12:33 PM
Seems to be quite the talk about vaccines lately. I won't start off by saying if I am for it or not in hopes not to sway the direction of the thread. I am just curious what the brains here have to say about vaccines. Do you vaccinate? Do you not vaccinate? Why, why not, is it good?

When our younge4st daughter was born my wife was on the fence, but our pediatrician and my GP sat her down with the stats and evidence. It's a no brainer-like taking a baby asperin after a certain age-Just have them vaccinated.

Rustybolt
02-17-2015, 12:38 PM
is mercury in them?

Yes. It's not the mercury like you'd find in a thermometer. It's inert. It's used to carry the vaccine into the blood system and is then rapidly expelled through urination.
Keep in mind by the 1970s we erradicated polio, measles, whooping cough, chicken pox,etc. All through vaccination.

cameron
02-17-2015, 01:02 PM
is mercury in them?

Yes. It's not the mercury like you'd find in a thermometer. It's inert. It's used to carry the vaccine into the blood system and is then rapidly expelled through urination.
Keep in mind by the 1970s we erradicated polio, measles, whooping cough, chicken pox,etc. All through vaccination.

Not one of those four diseases has been eradicated.

lakeside53
02-17-2015, 01:11 PM
But that's splitting hairs... ok.. we could say "known stains effectively eliminated". So long as we have international air travel (to a lessor extent other forms of transportation) and large pockets of the world where access to medicine isn't so prevalent, you can never eliminate every host.

Immunization works - From 640,000 measles cases in the USA to close to nothing with a few years. Polio... look that one up and consider mortality, and if you survived, lifelong issues from infection.

cameron
02-17-2015, 01:27 PM
Splitting hairs? A disease is either eliminated or not eliminated.

Several reported cases of whooping cough and chicken pox in this area (Eastern Ontario) this winter.

Maybe you think the reports of measles at Disneyland and in Toronto and elsewhere are hoaxes?

Polio is resurging in Africa because of non-vaccination.

Of course vaccination works. Is there anything in Post #54 that suggests I think otherwise?

Rosco-P
02-17-2015, 01:38 PM
VPT, you unfortunately had a bad reaction to an inoculation. Have your kids had any problems? Would it better to have a child be: sick as a dog for a while from a vaccine; deal with the lifelong effects of something preventable like Polio? I can't see any clearer choice. It's a no brainer.....

Arcane
02-17-2015, 01:38 PM
The only people who advocate against inoculations seem to fall into two categories, the truly whack-a-doodle ones and those who enrich themselves off the whack-a-doodles by writing books that feed on and reinforce the whack-a-doodles' paranoid delusions. Want to bet that this woman isn't also against inoculations?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8

Inoculations work.
http://vaccines.procon.org/files/1-vaccines-images/measles-cases.JPG

Rosco-P
02-17-2015, 01:40 PM
The only people who advocate against inoculations seem to fall into two categories, the truly whack-a-doodle ones and those who enrich themselves off the whack-a-doodles by writing books that feed on and reinforce the whack-a-doodles' paranoid delusions.

What about Christian Scientists, Amish and Mennonites? Don't they all avoid such things?

Black_Moons
02-17-2015, 02:09 PM
That is another curiosity I have. All my life I was told to avoid rust and open wounds and whatnot. However over my life I have had open wounds take in gas, oil, grease, dirt, gravel, aluminum, stainless, copper, titanium, rust, every kind of water imaginable (tap, lake, river, sewage cow holes etc), I have had wood, grass, plastic, hair, glass, lead, rubber, paint chemicals, gun cleaners, acids, you name it enter my body threw different wounds threw my life. Now maybe I am just lucky but I have never once had an adverse effect from any of it yet.

People have witnessed some of these and told me I was guarantied to get an infection and maybe lose a limb, still have all my limbs and digits.

It makes me curious as to what happens differently that at some point I would get an infection, lose a limb, or have to get a tetanus shot? What would be different between all those other times and that one time that something actually happens?

Meh, I have gotten lots of wounds in my life. I always just keep draining them until they stop hurting/filling with fluid. I can't imagen anyone letting a wound fester full of crap when you could drain it and 9 times outta 10 it feels so much better after draining.

You can tell when its infected as poking at the wound just REALLY hurts. much more then a wound that size should. That and draining it results in non clear fluid.

ikdor
02-17-2015, 02:09 PM
We should revisit this excellent post #8 by Michigan Doug
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/61034-OT-Flu-Shots
Where he explains about the mercury part.

Igor

Black_Moons
02-17-2015, 02:13 PM
The only people who advocate against inoculations seem to fall into two categories, the truly whack-a-doodle ones and those who enrich themselves off the whack-a-doodles by writing books that feed on and reinforce the whack-a-doodles' paranoid delusions. Want to bet that this woman isn't also against inoculations?


For the record, I am not against inoculations, just needles. Gimme that stuff in a pill or hypospray and I'll eat that stuff like candy. Where the hell are my damn hypo sprays, startrek has been promising me them since I was a kid.

I can also submit myself for general anesthesia by gas and get a needle, My logical mind has no problem with any events leading up to it. My reptilian brain however wants to murder anyone who dares come within 10 feet of me with a needle and its not so easy to suppress it when it comes to survival instincts.

Rustybolt
02-17-2015, 02:28 PM
Not one of those four diseases has been eradicated.


In this country for all intents and purposes they were.

vpt
02-17-2015, 02:42 PM
I like the replies! Good to hear about the mercury part, I was quite concerned about one.

As for why I exactly got sick the last time be it the shot, the procedure, what have you I still feel I would rather brave the illness than go threw that again.

But I am more concerned for my children now.

About the topic of where shots come from. It was mentioned they are imported from places that can make them cheaper and has lower standards? The import alone, the extra handling of product, what else can be in them? I also saw something about 1 million injections being contaminated with cancer cells? (Like anything it can't be believed until confirmed by multiple sources lol)

Injecting stuff in the body isn't something I take lightly if you haven't noticed. :)

flylo
02-17-2015, 02:51 PM
In this country for all intents and purposes they were.

You didn't read my post about polio showing up in Minnisota? Is "all intents & purposes" like being a little pregnant?:rolleyes:

cameron
02-17-2015, 03:02 PM
In this country for all intents and purposes they were.

But now aren't, apparently.

rws
02-17-2015, 03:12 PM
"The only people who advocate against inoculations seem to fall into two categories, the truly whack-a-doodle ones and those who enrich themselves off the whack-a-doodles by writing books that feed on and reinforce the whack-a-doodles' paranoid delusions."

Now there is a level headed, non biased response, based on pure fact....

Rosco-P
02-17-2015, 03:37 PM
For the record, I am not against inoculations, just needles. Gimme that stuff in a pill or hypospray and I'll eat that stuff like candy. Where the hell are my damn hypo sprays, startrek has been promising me them since I was a kid.

Best hope you don't ever become Diabetic...or worse. There are much worse drugs that some must self-inject with a harpoon on a daily, thrice weekly or weekly basis.
Sorry for the detour.

Black_Moons
02-17-2015, 04:09 PM
Best hope you don't ever become Diabetic...or worse. There are much worse drugs that some must self-inject with a harpoon on a daily, thrice weekly or weekly basis.
Sorry for the detour.

Agreed, I would likely die due to not taking it, All because they physically forced me to get injections as a child resulting in trauma I likely won't get over.

bborr01
02-17-2015, 04:33 PM
For all of you who are afraid of needles, I have a little story for you.

I had always had an aversion to needles. Not to the point where I refused to get shots but I just never liked needles.

One day while water ski jumping I broke my femur in 2 places. I was rushed to the hospital and put on a morphine IV. Over the next couple of days they poked me like a pin cushion, but at that point I didn't care in the least. It was taking care of the pain, or at least most of it. A few years later I had a motorcycle accident which required 3 surgeries to my ankle. I'm still not a big fan of needles but I don't cringe like I used to.

Brian

Black_Moons
02-17-2015, 04:42 PM
For all of you who are afraid of needles, I have a little story for you.

I had always had an aversion to needles. Not to the point where I refused to get shots but I just never liked needles.

One day while water ski jumping I broke my femur in 2 places. I was rushed to the hospital and put on a morphine IV. Over the next couple of days they poked me like a pin cushion, but at that point I didn't care in the least. It was taking care of the pain, or at least most of it. A few years later I had a motorcycle accident which required 3 surgeries to my ankle. I'm still not a big fan of needles but I don't cringe like I used to.

Brian

Right, I'll add 'break a femur' to the list of ways to get to like needles that I am not going to try. :P

Mark Rand
02-17-2015, 04:44 PM
As I noted in my post up above somewhere, I'm type one diabolic and average 6-7 injections per day.

Some additional background.. I have a colleague at work who's been diabetic since the age of two. He, possibly for obvious reasons, is frightened of needles-still-at the age of 54! Life is quite difficult for him. he used to use a spring loaded injector and inject himself in the back. Not seeing it helped him. He's coping better since he had a pump, but he's still a tormented individual.

Rosco-P
02-17-2015, 04:45 PM
Right, I'll add 'break a femur' to the list of ways to get to like needles that I am not going to try. :P

"That which does not kill you, makes you stronger"

Black_Moons
02-17-2015, 04:50 PM
As I noted in my post up above somewhere, I'm type one diabolic and average 6-7 injections per day.

Some additional background.. I have a colleague at work who's been diabetic since the age of two. He, possibly for obvious reasons, is frightened of needles-still-at the age of 54! Life is quite difficult for him. he used to use a spring loaded injector and inject himself in the back. Not seeing it helped him. He's coping better since he had a pump, but he's still a tormented individual.

Yep. Trauma you get when your brain is forming will last a life time. Your brain can't understand it and it embeds itself into your survival instincts. Survival instincts being the ones where when people ignored them they died, so we are very genetically wired to follow them, regardless of logic or thought.

Black_Moons
02-17-2015, 04:51 PM
"That which does not kill you, makes you stronger"

Tell that to the people who survived polio. Or broke their back/spine.

Rosco-P
02-17-2015, 04:54 PM
"That which does not kill you, makes you stronger"


Tell that to the people who survived polio. Or broke their back/spine.

Sorry, I believe that quote relates to surviving divorce, not serious injury or illness.

Black_Moons
02-17-2015, 04:57 PM
Sorry, I believe that quote relates to surviving divorce, not serious injury or illness.

Oh, yes, After divorce, if she does not kill you, you will be much stronger, as you'll have a lot of manual labor ahead of you rebuilding what you have lost.

Rosco-P
02-17-2015, 04:59 PM
Oh, yes, After divorce, if she does not kill you, you will be much stronger, as you'll have a lot of manual labor ahead of you rebuilding what you have lost.

True dat!

Arcane
02-17-2015, 05:19 PM
What about Christian Scientists, Amish and Mennonites? Don't they all avoid such things?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science
Christian Science is a set of beliefs and practices belonging to the metaphysical family of new religious movements.[3] It was developed in 19th-century New England by Mary Baker Eddy (18211910), who argued in her book Science and Health (1875) that sickness is an illusion that can be corrected by prayer alone.

From http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/27/us-amish-parents-idUSTRE75Q5SO20110627
Among the minority of Amish parents who do not immunize their children, the most common reasons for skipping the shots were more related to concerns over the potential side effects of vaccines, than to religious beliefs, a new study finds.

If that isn't whack-a-doodle then what is?

Not all Amish and Mennonites are against inoculations but if they are against them for religious reasons as the Christian Scientists are, then they are just as whack-a-doodle.

Arcane
02-17-2015, 05:38 PM
For the record, I am not against inoculations, just needles. Gimme that stuff in a pill or hypospray and I'll eat that stuff like candy. Where the hell are my damn hypo sprays, startrek has been promising me them since I was a kid.

I can also submit myself for general anesthesia by gas and get a needle, My logical mind has no problem with any events leading up to it. My reptilian brain however wants to murder anyone who dares come within 10 feet of me with a needle and its not so easy to suppress it when it comes to survival instincts.

Phobias aren't really rational, they just are and often have some very unpleasant event as a trigger. I have a touch of Nyctophobia (fear of the dark or of night) that I'm convinced resulted from being deliberately scared one night by teen boy when I was very young, and I wasn't really fond of the dark before that event. I'm sure that was a major contributor to my having a panic attack one day at work when taking training for confined spaces. After that panic attack, to this day I always have a light on at night since being in the dark is just very very uncomfortable. I KNOW it's an irrational fear but..it's still there.

jep24601
02-17-2015, 05:41 PM
Some good info. Polio shouuld have been gone by 2000 but from lack of education, fear, & the issue this thread has brought out it's not quite done, but soon.
https://www.rotary.org/myrotary/en/take-action/end-polio

Actually the CIA has much of the blame for the failure to eradicate polio. They had agents of the CIA posing as vaccination officials to spy on Osama Bin Ladens hideout. Now the Taliban has been killing the polio eradication project vaccination nurses - talk about a dumb move by the CIA.

PStechPaul
02-17-2015, 05:49 PM
When I was a youngster we went to an old-fashioned sort of doctor who had an office in his home and you just went there without an appointment or you could have him make a house call. He was a pretty cool guy and told stories about going on lion-hunting expeditions in Africa for vacations. He would administer injections by slapping you on the buttocks and then inserting the needle while you were still smarting from the slap, and it probably also helped that you could not see it. I still don't watch when getting a needle.

As for taking extreme precautions before being injected, I think one has a far better chance of getting an infection from ordinary experiences like getting a splinter, or paper cut, or sliver of metal, or thorns, and such, than from a new, sterilized needle in a hospital environment. Also, rusty metal does not necessarily pose any more risk than other sources of exposure. The bacterial spores are found everywhere in the environment. I think you may automatically get re-immunized almost every time you get a cut or splinter in other than a clean environment (which is rare), so those of us who work with sharp tools and swarf and engage in "manly" activities like cutting and hauling firewood, probably have much less chance of getting tetanus, (and perhaps other diseases), than those who are very fastidious and avoid anything remotely dangerous.

http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/cut-rusty-metal-do-i-need-tetanus-shot

TGTool
02-17-2015, 06:01 PM
My childhood was mostly spent in Africa. What's now Boko Haram territory for what it's worth. The mission ran a hospital there in a small village and a few miles out of the village also a leprosarium. Given that there weren't hospitals for miles around, this one covered a large territory if people could get to it. And given that roads weren't that plentiful and not all that good at the best, it wasn't easy to get to it. So what showed up was often advanced cases of disease and injury. Lacerations that were ulcerated, missing fingers and toes on lepers, elephantiasis with a leg that wouldn't fit a waste basket. I've been to Lassa which gave it's name to Lassa Fever, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lassa_fever) a hemorrhagic fever similar to Ebola. I could go on. It's not a pretty sight.

So I believe in treatment and preventative medicine because I've seen it work and I've seen the alternative. And yes, I get vaccinations including tetanus.

Rosco-P
02-17-2015, 06:06 PM
. I think you may automatically get re-immunized almost every time you get a cut or splinter in other than a clean environment (which is rare), so those of us who work with sharp tools and swarf and engage in "manly" activities like cutting and hauling firewood, probably have much less chance of getting tetanus, (and perhaps other diseases), than those who are very fastidious and avoid anything remotely dangerous.


Umm yeah, no. Not as simple as that.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC261948/

http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4220.pdf

Rustybolt
02-17-2015, 06:35 PM
You didn't read my post about polio showing up in Minnisota? Is "all intents & purposes" like being a little pregnant?:rolleyes:

Context is everything.
I'm willing to bet the recipient is middle eastern or traveled to the middle east.
For the most part the resurgence of these diseases are the resukt of lax screening of our boarder people.

Rustybolt
02-17-2015, 06:40 PM
Actually the CIA has much of the blame for the failure to eradicate polio. They had agents of the CIA posing as vaccination officials to spy on Osama Bin Ladens hideout. Now the Taliban has been killing the polio eradication project vaccination nurses - talk about a dumb move by the CIA.

Except that the CIA cover doctors were actually inoculating with real vaccine. It's the Taliban that consider western medicine haram and won't allow children to be vaccinated. That belief preceded the CIA mission.

PStechPaul
02-17-2015, 11:27 PM
The study seems to show that it is possible to acquire a nominal amount of immunity just from environmental contact. The level rose with age and was considered enough to be protected at around 60 years of age when it reached 0.01. It seems like a rather arbitrary level and I would think that a titer of 0.007 to 0.009 would provide some protection, and I doubt that 0.01 would be 100% effective. Most things involve shades of gray. ;) :rolleyes:

fixerdave
02-18-2015, 12:15 AM
I was told not to get the flu vaccine after getting an aftermarket liver. I am on immune suppressant drugs for the remainder of my life....


...I have been vaccinated as most have... and we need everyone to be so (>84% for most vaccines).. otherwise the herd coverage isnt high enough to give protection and its not worth doing....

This is the reason for vaccination campaigns... herd immunity, to protect people that CAN'T be vaccinated, not protecting those that won't. It's the people that refuse because of the risk, but can only refuse because others take that risk, that anger me. I think those people are selfish... Did I mention they make me angry?

Every time I take my son in to be vaccinated, I stare into his eyes, looking for any sign of reaction. Yeah, it scares me, every time. I know there's a slight chance of a reaction that could permanently harm or even kill him. I know the science isn't perfectly settled and there might just be other risks down the road. Yes, it's a risk -- and I know it's a risk, but then all of life is. You trade off potential risks, one for the other, and hope you make the right bets. The people that avoid staring into their children's eyes, feeling that fear, because they're counting on ME doing it for them... Yeah, angry. Anger driven by fear. Every time. If they were standing outside the clinic after one of those shots... I'd probably go out of my way to spit on them.

I'd be perfectly fine if everyone was forced to go for a shot... just form 2 lines: line to the left gets the vaccine, line to the right gets the live virus. Take your pick. Either line, and the end result will be everyone with immunity, at least those that survive. I bet the line for a live shot of polio would be pretty short.

So, rephrasing the question... if you had zero chance of herd immunity, which line would you stand your kids in? Vaccine or the real thing?

David...

PeteM
02-18-2015, 01:46 AM
+85 or whatever it is so far on "yes, vaccinate."

Some other reasons it's in our combined interest to have most of us vaccinated:

1) Kids under age one won't be vaccinated but are susceptible. Those carrying the disease at home, in doctors offices, etc. put them at risk.

2) Ditto for those with compromised immune systems (undergoing cancer treatment, for example). If your wife is undergoing cancer treatment, her doctor is likely to tell YOU to get a flu shot.

3) A tiny fraction of school kids will have known reactions to vaccine components. As long as their school mates have been vaccinated, they're likely to be healthy. As we've seen, if too many parents listen to BS accounts of vaccine damage then the risk rises for everyone.

4) Vaccines lower our overall health care costs -- and also reduce lost school and work days. Given that health care costs are what's most likely to bankrupt our kids -- you'd think we'd favor them.

Those researching the combined shots have done studies; and have shown that the single shot has less side effects than a series of three or four separate shots.

PixMan
02-18-2015, 07:20 AM
Context is everything.
I'm willing to bet the recipient is middle eastern or traveled to the middle east.
For the most part the resurgence of these diseases are the resukt of lax screening of our boarder people.

Yeah sure. Disease is just flowing north from Mexico and beyond because every natural born American here is clean and free of disease and wouldn't otherwise get it.

Seriously? Is this what you really believe?

vpt
02-18-2015, 07:40 AM
This is the kind of stuff that scares me: http://www.naturalnews.com/041345_cdc_polio_vaccine_sv40.html


It only take that one bad injection that one time to end all your fun. In these days of hacking and criminal activities how do you know some day everyone being injected isn't being injected by some vaccine that was contaminated with something? It only take that one time to wipe out millions!

jep24601
02-18-2015, 08:43 AM
Except that the CIA cover doctors were actually inoculating with real vaccine. It's the Taliban that consider western medicine haram and won't allow children to be vaccinated. That belief preceded the CIA mission.

Which is why the actions of the CIA were so incredibly stupid considering the opposition of many elements of the Taliban already to the vacination programs. We came so close to eradication until that happened. Now, actually, more elements of the Taliban are coming around to favoring polio vaccinations because of the focus of the disease in their areas. And for those who are uncomfortable with the idea of vaccinations keep in mind that you don't need to be vaccinated against eradicated diseases.

Rosco-P
02-18-2015, 09:10 AM
The study seems to show that it is possible to acquire a nominal amount of immunity just from environmental contact. The level rose with age and was considered enough to be protected at around 60 years of age when it reached 0.01. It seems like a rather arbitrary level and I would think that a titer of 0.007 to 0.009 would provide some protection, and I doubt that 0.01 would be 100% effective. Most things involve shades of gray. ;) :rolleyes:

So better to skip the initial shot and the once in 10 year booster and risk Tetanus because by 60, you may have developed a level of immunity? How will you know? Maybe you really want to risk having to deal with all the nasty effects of a Tetanus infection? Lockjaw being a catch-all phase for the resulting muscle spasms that can break your legs or you back. All the silly smiley Gif's at the end of you post doesn't make you any less wrong or less imformed.

J. Randall
02-18-2015, 11:53 AM
Yeah sure. Disease is just flowing north from Mexico and beyond because every natural born American here is clean and free of disease and wouldn't otherwise get it.

Seriously? Is this what you really believe?

The reason it is flowing north has nothing to do with our population, it is from open borders and little to no enforcement of existing immigration laws. I don't care how you try to rationalize it, it puts our natural born at a higher risk.
James