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Seastar
03-03-2015, 08:05 AM
In my 70 years of repairing and making things I have screwed and unscrewed what must be hundreds of thousands of screws.
Here are some observations and lamentations -----

When I first started using a screwdriver all of screws were simple slotted designs. They are beautilul especially when the slots are all lined up as in high end custom guns.

Then the Robertson screw came along.
My first boat, an old beat up Hatteras had thousands of Robertson screws, almost all brass and they were very elegant indeed with their square holes neatly aligned and their faces glowing their soft yellow color.

Then the Phillips showed up and while they are easy to drive they are almost never aligned and just don't have much esthetic appeal to me.

Then I bought a Japanese built four-wheeler and discovered it had all JIS standard cross recess screws that a Phillips screwdriver fits poorly. I do think they are marginally more attractive than a Phillips but not enought to please my artistic sense.

I shouldn't even mention the Torx or the various socket head cap screws because they are all ugly but do their jobs very well.

Ah well I guess I am just old and wishing for things the way they were-------
Bill

vpt
03-03-2015, 08:13 AM
I like phillips, I feel the only screw that should be used today for anything should be a phillips. The square drive is alright for drywall screws.

J Tiers
03-03-2015, 08:14 AM
The robertson screws (truly a screw job) are now showing up in electrical equipment... giving a choice of the two worst drives ever, the modern slot and the robertson. The robertson driver has another alternate name... "drill".

The only thing I can think of worse than robertson screws is BRASS robertson screws.... (even if they were likely a bronze).

Aligned slot-head screws do look nice.. And the only thing wrong with slotted screws really, is the total lack of adherence to any standard in modern slot heads, and the corresponding lack of drivers to fit the slots properly in width, depth, and length. Modern slots are often just a sort of rounded valley in the screwhead....of whatever size the maker let the tooling wear out to.

That and short screwdrivers. If you ever use a good LONG screwdriver that actually fits the head of the screw you have, you would stop whining about slots.

Modern slotted don't work, the tapered robertson cam out as badly as phillips, both suck.

Pozidrive is tolerable, Allen if you must, but they are a little weak on torque capability.

Torx is the real deal.

goose
03-03-2015, 08:34 AM
Phillips was adopted early on by industry as a fast way to power drive fasteners. Otherwise it is a terrible design. Cams out easily and is not suitable for any application requiring hi torque.

Torx is the best currently design that's readily available.

ironmonger
03-03-2015, 09:04 AM
Phillips was adopted early on by industry as a fast way to power drive fasteners. Otherwise it is a terrible design. Cams out easily and is not suitable for any application requiring hi torque.

Torx is the best currently design that's readily available.

The Phillips screw and its variants have a saving grace. The buggered screw recess is a very good pilot for the drill bit required to remove them. Essentially self centring, a slightly larger than body size drill makes quick work of removal. Back when the service rate in the cycle shop I worked at was $15 per hour, our shop got a flat rate of $1 per screw. That'll teach you to use a impact driver.

paul

firbikrhd1
03-03-2015, 09:18 AM
I'm with J Tiers on this one. Those Robertson drive screws are easier to rip out the heads than any Phillips I ever used. I bought some 3 inch Robertson drive stainless finishing screws to install deck rails and stripped out several heads installing them. The next batch I bought had Torx heads and used them with no issues what so ever. I also built some forms with deck screw that had Torx heads. Not only were they great for installation they were also easy to remove after the concrete was poured when the forms had to be removed. The only issue I had was concrete filling the Torx heads on a few screws and I was able to salvage the rest to be used on another project.
Aesthetically the Torx heads don't bother me at all. It's all what you get used to in my opinion. If you're used to seeing Phillips screws for most of your life and Torx comes along they probably are not attractive at first, but after they have been around for a while you don't think anything about it and misalignment of heads is far less noticeable.

J Harp
03-03-2015, 10:06 AM
Slotted screws only look good till the slot gets buggered up. A tapered blade tip will soon do a good job of buggering them up. If there were standard slot widths and screwdriver blades with width and thickness made to match that might help.

JeffKranz
03-03-2015, 11:32 AM
Well, I must be all wet. I think the square drive is far superior than anything else I used with maybe the exception of the Torx drive deck screws. I can say of the 10000's of square drive screws I have installed probably only a hand full of strip outs. When it comes to Phillips heads, that number is 10 fold. All slotted screws have already made their way to the scrap yard. Worst design ever for power driving or even regular driving - maybe in the old time days where people took time to build things but in today's fast world, a cordless drill and a square drive you can go to town.. Plus let me see you put a Phillips screw on a bit and drive it horizontally without holding on to the screw or having a magnetic bit. The square drive rocks for that operation.

brian Rupnow
03-03-2015, 12:00 PM
Jeff---I'm with you. Robertson rules!!! ---And he was a Canadian.----Brian

dp
03-03-2015, 01:29 PM
I built a deck (800 ft square though it wasn't square) of Trex material and screwed the deck down with Robertson screws. I went through boxes and boxes of screws and never once had one cam out on me, and I needed only two drives to finish the entire deck. I did have a heart attack two days after finishing the deck but I can't blame Robertson for that :)

brian Rupnow
03-03-2015, 01:38 PM
I have to admit, there are some pretty damned cheesy Robertson screws on the market, and also some very cheesy Robertson drivers. On a bad box of screws, they do cam out very easily. Bad drivers are good for the first 20 screws you drive, then the corners round off and that makes the screws cam out. The Robertson concept is great, and if you use quality products they work fabulous. However, in a world where quality control is getting to be a myth, well, what can I say??----Brian

flylo
03-03-2015, 01:40 PM
We sold square drive deck screws in large black & green & trim head SS & everyone loved them until the production changed from North America to china. I think that's why some have had problems & others have not. Also chinese drywall screws pop the heads off while driving. Same old stuff, different day.
GRK Canadian made screws are the best IMHO.

Willy
03-03-2015, 01:51 PM
The Robertson screws cam out???
You have got to kidding me. Not sure what the level of material and driver quality is you guys are using but I have to wonder.
I've been using these with excellent results ever since I moved to Canada and have become a convert, although I'll admit to being a bit reluctant at first, something about change I guess.
As an example I built several very large wood decks last fall all built out of old dry fir. Although I probably used thousands of 3 1/2" Robertson deck screws I did not have one cam out. The odd time I did shear off one or two due to the torque required because of the dry fir.
A good Robertson bit will fit the socket in the screw so tight that it is difficult to pull the drive bit out of the screw as every so often I would have to give the drill a tug to get it to release after driving one home. This last "feature" also comes in handy when starting a screw one handed in difficult to reach areas.

Puckdropper
03-03-2015, 02:01 PM
I find Phillips has one redeeming quality that many of the others lack: When you bugger up the Phillips head, usually you can put the bit back in and reverse it out. Other screw types tend to round things so you can't pull them back out.

The absolute worst screwheads: Square/Phillips combo. Neither bit fits properly, so instead of getting any benefit from being "more flexible", you wind up with the worst of both worlds. (Why did you do it, Kreg? Why?!)

rowbare
03-03-2015, 02:41 PM
[QUOTE=ironmonger;970828]The Phillips screw and its variants have a saving grace. The buggered screw recess is a very good pilot for the drill bit required to remove them. [QUOTE]
Unfortunately one has to do that with amazing regularity. Of course it doesn't help that there are several different kinds of nearly the same but not really cross head screw types and you never seem to have the right driver on hand.

bob

JRouche
03-03-2015, 03:19 PM
Interesting article JR--->> Canadian Inventions – The Robertson Screwdriver System (Peter Robertson)

http://www.dww.com/?p=3835

Jon Heron
03-03-2015, 04:01 PM
The Robertson has them all beat hands down, quality considered of course, as pointed out by Brian.
They stick to the driver in any position, wont cam out or strip and I can snap the head off #10 screws all day long with a Robertson, dont even attempt that with a torques or Philips...
:D
These debates are great but never go anywhere, the proofs in the pudding, somebody do a side by side comparison of Philips, torques and Robertson, all positions then into a piece of hard wood that is tough enough you can snap the heads off the screws...
I already know the winner in speed, adhesion to the driver and strength, there is only one winner in all categories... :p
This declaration comes from being an electrician since I was 16 and driving all manner of screws into all manner of material over the last 25 years...
Cheers,
Jon

krutch
03-03-2015, 04:46 PM
OK, this particular dummy does not know what a Robertson screw is. And I didn't see the clutch drive mentioned. Learn me, people.

Never mind, I looked it up and see it's just a square drive screw.

Baz
03-03-2015, 04:53 PM
"Learn me, people"
First lesson: "Teach me, please". :D
One day Americans will learn English.

Willy
03-03-2015, 04:54 PM
Not just a square drive but a tapered square drive. Think of it as a mini square Morse taper driver.

Black_Moons
03-03-2015, 05:00 PM
Im in love with SHCS. Something about a nice solid hex drive, Never stripped one yet, Even when I did destructive testing the shaft snaped on 12.8 grade metric SHCS before the head stripped. Was a little jammed onto the driver but just turning it the other way firmly unjammed it. They look rather.. mechanical in SHCS but button head cap screw adds a nice low profile option.

Btw, for anyone in the USA, you likely are NOT using robertson screws/drivers. You are likely using *SQUARE* drive. Not the same thing! robertson has a taper. Square drive does not.
Cheapo square drive drivers are being sold in Canada now too. You'll notice them by the fact the screw sticks on 'securely' to the tip of the bit.. Until you strip your driver in the slightest and then it won't drive them worth a damn.

Iv heard the 'color coded' robertson bits are usually the proper robertson .

Of course, if you have square drive screws you'll want to be using a square drive driver.

I hope to never see another Phillips again.. Old Japanese motorcycles have tons of the things. I take a manual impact screwdriver to them every time, don't even risk using a normal screwdriver and stripping them, put them in a little bag to measure them.. then throw them the $#%$ out and replace with grade 12.8 SHCS!!!!

Grumble grumble, hundreds of stripped heads, grumble grumble, snapped shafts when the head didn't strip but shaft was a little seized, Grumble grumble. People cutting slots into Phillips heads to get them out.. AND THEN PUTTING THEM BACK IN! GRUMBLE GRUMBLE!

Jon Heron
03-03-2015, 06:05 PM
Old Japanese motorcycles have tons of the things. I take a manual impact screwdriver to them every time
Ditto!
Jon

Duffy
03-03-2015, 06:07 PM
I think that part of the difficulty with Robertson screws is the variability in the quality of the screw and the quality control with the coated screws. The so-called "ceramic coated" screws appear to be coated after manufacture, and some of the coating gets into the socket. Since the socket is SUPPOSEDLY a precision size and shape, a bit of coating in the hole buggers the screw. This is particularly applicable to the coloured deck screws; the chromated ones never seem to cause problems. As BM says, cheap drivers are NO bargain!
Incidentally, Robertson screws ALMOST ruled the world. Henry Ford thought that they were absolutely the perfect production fastener and tried to licence the manufacture. That was when two control freaks clashed-Henry wanted to control the supply, while Robertson wanted to control the production. When the Phillips screw was offered to him WITH production licencing Henry took it, even though he admitted it was an inferior design

J Tiers
03-03-2015, 06:35 PM
Real PHILLIPS totally suck.

POZIDRIVE work great... and they pass the test of screw on driver horizontally. Of course so do Allen, and the true winner, which is TORX.

Most of the sockets are reasonably tolerant... NOT the robertson... if not perfect, it sucks terribly. Maybe a perfect one is good, never seen one, don't expect to.

RandyZ
03-03-2015, 06:43 PM
We sold square drive deck screws in large black & green & trim head SS & everyone loved them until the production changed from North America to china. I think that's why some have had problems & others have not. Also chinese drywall screws pop the heads off while driving. Same old stuff, different day.
GRK Canadian made screws are the best IMHO.

Unfortunate GRK has closed their plant here in Thunder Bay and shipped all the machinery to China.

loose nut
03-03-2015, 06:50 PM
I don't know if the Robertson company is still in existence anymore, could have been driven out of business by off shore crap but if you had ever used a real Robertson screw with a proper driver you wouldn't want to use anything else. Most of what is available now is crap and so are the drive bits.

Stick a real Rob screw on to a good driver pointing up and rotate it until it is pointing straight down. The screw will stay in place until it is about 20 degrees off of vertically down and frequently it will stay on while pointing straight down. Try that with a Philips. I can't remember ever seeing Philips screws variable in Canada but know body wants them anyway.

DR
03-03-2015, 08:03 PM
Anybody mentioned Frearson? Is it the same as Robertson?

brian Rupnow
03-03-2015, 08:04 PM
Loose nut--As far as I know, Phillips screws and screwdrivers have always been available in Canada.---Brian

John Stevenson
03-03-2015, 08:12 PM
It's against the law to use Robertson screws in the UK.

J Tiers
03-03-2015, 08:32 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/poziscrew2_zpsz4r2gepj.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jstanley/media/poziscrew2_zpsz4r2gepj.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/poziscrew1_zpssholkyxp.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jstanley/media/poziscrew1_zpssholkyxp.jpg.html)

Pozidrive, of course.... called "Phillips" only by those who don't mind appearing to be hayseeds :D

Peter S
03-03-2015, 08:45 PM
"Learn me, people"
First lesson: "Teach me, please". :D
One day Americans will learn English.

"But we don't want to teach him, we want to learn him!" A great quote and I can't now recall who said it.

PixMan
03-03-2015, 09:09 PM
Phillips was adopted early on by industry as a fast way to power drive fasteners. Otherwise it is a terrible design. Cams out easily and is not suitable for any application requiring hi torque.

Torx is the best currently design that's readily available.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's no longer true.

The hexobular Torx has a 15 pressure angle on the lobes. The newer iteration, Torx Plus, is a spline drive with a 0 pressure angle and is much better in every way.

Few people seem to know about it, though its been out for over 10 years and is in wide use throughout the indexable cutting tool business. A regular Torx driver will fit, but will eventually strip the "teeth" of the driver. The Torx Plus drivers (designated by "IP" after the Tx size) will fit into regular Torx sockets, but not well

Here's a document (big) which illustrates the differences pretty well.

https://www.semblex.com/files/TorxPlus-Semblex.pdf

Cuttings
03-03-2015, 09:22 PM
My vote goes with the Robertson.
I guess I have been spoiled using mostly bronze or stainless screws and Snap-On or genuine Robertson drivers.
Many times I have removed a pretty rusty plain steel Robertson head screw by tapping the driver in to make sure it is bottomed then applying all the torque necessary to remove the screw.

Mike Nash
03-03-2015, 09:25 PM
My biggest issue with any of the fasteners is trying to buy drivers that fit. You can buy a Phillips head screwdriver most anywhere in the USA, but most of the screws on devices aren't actually Phillips head and the proper drivers are hard to find, hence the great dissatisfaction.

Willy
03-03-2015, 09:38 PM
I hope to never see another Phillips again.. Old Japanese motorcycles have tons of the things. I take a manual impact screwdriver to them every time, don't even risk using a normal screwdriver and stripping them, put them in a little bag to measure them.. then throw them the $#%$ out and replace with grade 12.8 SHCS!!!!

Grumble grumble, hundreds of stripped heads, grumble grumble, snapped shafts when the head didn't strip but shaft was a little seized, Grumble grumble. People cutting slots into Phillips heads to get them out.. AND THEN PUTTING THEM BACK IN! GRUMBLE GRUMBLE!


What you and many others, including many MC and Japanese car dealers think is a Phillips screw, is actually a JIS (Japanese Industry Standard) cross point screw.
These are often, but not always, identifiable by a raised dot or dimple on the screw head. The Phillips was actually deigned as an automotive assembly line screw that would cam out so as not to strip or break the screw. The JIS crosspoint driver and screw can withstand much more torque input than the Phillips.
The geometry of the two is totally different, using a Phillips bit for removal of a JIS screw is a recipe for failure, as you already know.
However one can use a JIS screwdriver on a Phillips with much greater success.

The Phillips screw and driver combo have single handedly sold more impact drivers and aspirins than all of the ad salesman in the world put together.

I have to agree though, if I never see another Phillips screw for the rest of my life it will still be too soon, JIS and Pozidrive though are in different league compared to Phillips.
Why is life so needlessly complicated?:)

http://cdn.instructables.com/F5K/IE3C/FQSWZZ4L/F5KIE3CFQSWZZ4L.MEDIUM.jpg

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk182/motobuddha/980f0ce0.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x466/NVTrailRider/JIS-1001_zpsff745d47.jpg

lakeside53
03-03-2015, 10:24 PM
Same with genuine Pozidrive -they have a head ID to differentiate them from others - little "tick" marks at 45 degrees (between the crosses).

Phillips drivers suck on pozi, and pozi drivers suck on Phillips. Oh.. Phillips drivers suck on Phillips too.. lol.. Look, identify and use right tool for the job. I like pozi, but grew up on them.

Oh.. did I say.. I hate Phillips? I've put in few 100k's of deck screw. OK, you can drive anything by hand, but with high speed battery impact drivers - Torx is best, #2 Robertson - ok, but keep your bits fresh... #1 coated Robertson and Phillips SUCK!

#1 SS trim head Robertson... be very careful - they are really soft and cam/burr out really easily. You need a lot of pressure absolutely inline with the screw (they can bend!).

I have no problem with #2 Robertson for general or electrical use, but you need QUALITY drive bits and toss any that you damage or cam out.. Milwaukie bits seem to last well.


MY BIG HATE: the combination Flat Phillips Square drive screws -worthless for ALL drivers. grrr

mickeyf
03-03-2015, 10:43 PM
I rank Robertson screws up there with shrink wrap tubing as one of the great everyday inventions of the 20th century. When I remove a slotted screw from anything (which frequently requires a struggle) it immediately goes in the bin.

It has been pointed out to me that in situations where a screw will be painted over, it's the easiest screw to scrape the paint out of so you can get a driver into it to remove it. Why would I paint over a screw? And then why would I want to remove it?

flylo
03-04-2015, 01:18 AM
The combo phillips that use square drive work pretty well also.

darryl
03-04-2015, 01:21 AM
I like the Philips drywall screw, but most other Philips screws suck. I use the drywall screw for assembling stuff made in mdf, since it doesn't tend to split the mdf, and the head can be made flush without removing much material. I made a custom pilot/chamfer bit to suit and it's the bees knees.

The Robertson is the screw of choice for heavy holding applications- building workbenches, etc. I completely avoid any driver that doesn't have a proper carbide driving nib, and that takes care of virtually all the problems of driving that head style.

Whoever invented the slotted screw should have their penises jammed into the slot just prior to attempting to start the screw and driving it home with that paint can opener.

PStechPaul
03-04-2015, 01:59 AM
I don't mind Philips screws, but the driver must be properly mated to the slot and in good shape.

Perhaps a good system would be a slot (or two at 90 degrees) with a hole in the center and a pilot in the driver. Usually slotted head screws fail because the driver slips out of the slot and buggers it up. For maximum torque and cam-out resistance, a driver with two sharp, flat-bottomed blades the full width of the screw head would work well. It's also easy to re-slot a screw and dress the blade on a grinder.

The more complex screw heads, including Philips, Torx and Robertson, are OK if you can use disposable bits in a hex drive holder, but there are some places where the driver won't fit through an access hole, and you need a driver with a machined shank. It's difficult to sharpen a Philips or other such drivers.

I have found that good Philips screws and drivers allow tightening and loosening at an angle up to about 15-30 degrees from vertical, almost like a universal joint. That won't work with any other type except SHCS with a ball end Allen wrench, and there again torque is limited.

Ideally, you should use a bolt and nut for high torque applications, where the bolt head is just held in place (perhaps with a lock washer under the head), and the torque is applied to the nut.

Paul Alciatore
03-04-2015, 02:32 AM
I beg to differ on the Phillips screw staying on a horizontal driver. In fact, a properly sized Phillips driver should stay in a matching Phillips screw that is held horizontal. If it doesn't, either the screw head of the driver or both are worn out. Observe.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/EPAIII/Web%20Post%20Photos/PhillipsWebCombo_zpsktwcahor.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/EPAIII/media/Web%20Post%20Photos/PhillipsWebCombo_zpsktwcahor.jpg.html)

No tricks here. No magnets. No glue. No grease. No pounding to fit. Just placed together with hand pressure only. The screwdriver is a Craftsman, #2 Phillips that I bought in the 60s or perhaps the 70s. Definitely NOT new. The screw is a new 10-32 x 1.5" pan head. I did position the screw up about 5 degrees for the screwdriver shot, but in the first shot, the screwdriver is horizontal +/- 0.5 degrees.

The screwdriver in the second photo IS supported ONLY at it's tip by the screw head.



Well, I must be all wet. I think the square drive is far superior than anything else I used with maybe the exception of the Torx drive deck screws. I can say of the 10000's of square drive screws I have installed probably only a hand full of strip outs. When it comes to Phillips heads, that number is 10 fold. All slotted screws have already made their way to the scrap yard. Worst design ever for power driving or even regular driving - maybe in the old time days where people took time to build things but in today's fast world, a cordless drill and a square drive you can go to town.. Plus let me see you put a Phillips screw on a bit and drive it horizontally without holding on to the screw or having a magnetic bit. The square drive rocks for that operation.

Euph0ny
03-04-2015, 02:51 AM
I hae had very good results with these new Spax T-star Plus screw heads and driver bits (http://www.spax.com/en/technical-terms/spax-t-star-plus). We used bucketloads of them in our recent house renovation. They seem to be a variation on the Torx-Plus drive concept detailed by PixMan above, but with an additional central indentation on the female and a matching prominence on the driver. They work very nicely with cordless drills/drivers, staying put on the bit whether horizontal or overhead, and not camming out even under huge torque.

Seastar
03-04-2015, 08:42 AM
OK, now that we've settled all of the holding/camout problems--------

I contend that no screws are more beautiful than slotted heads all exactly lined up on a witness line on a high end hand made gun.

Unless, of course, Bubba has been at them with his hardware store screwdriver.

Bill

Euph0ny
03-04-2015, 09:25 AM
I contend that no screws are more beautiful than slotted heads all exactly lined up on a witness line on a high end hand made gun.

Unless, of course, Bubba has been at them with his hardware store screwdriver.

I won't argue with that. However, I sometimes say a few rude words and an incantation or two under my breath when I have to unfasten a pin (US "screw") on a fine gun, since the slots seem to exceed neither the depth nor the breadth of a human hair, but they were still torqued down like billy-o*. No turnscrew ever seems to fit more than one slot either. Dressing the tool to fit the pins is the order of the day.

*The fine gunmakers cheat - they time and torque the the pins while they still have an oversize head with a reasonable size of slot, then they put in the finishing slot with the finest jeweller's saw they can find before filing off the big head. IIRC, Brownells sells oversized pin blanks for just this purpose.

Seastar
03-04-2015, 10:02 AM
I won't argue with that. However, I sometimes say a few rude words and an incantation or two under my breath when I have to unfasten a pin (US "screw") on a fine gun, since the slots seem to exceed neither the depth nor the breadth of a human hair, but they were still torqued down like billy-o*. No turnscrew ever seems to fit more than one slot either. Dressing the tool to fit the pins is the order of the day.

*The fine gunmakers cheat - they time and torque the the pins while they still have an oversize head with a reasonable size of syeplot, then they put in the finishing slot with the finest jeweller's saw they can find before filing off the big head. IIRC, Brownells sells oversized pin blanks for just this purpose.
Yep
That's the way it's done
Spectacular result!
Bill

loose nut
03-04-2015, 10:12 AM
Loose nut--As far as I know, Phillips screws and screwdrivers have always been available in Canada.---Brian

Screwdriver have always been here but I haven't seen any screws. Maybe the big box store are selling them but I always buy screws at the local hardware and they are always Robertson.

Don't want the useless crappy f!@#*($ Philips anyway.

Menessis
03-04-2015, 10:15 AM
I'm in the sheet metal business up here in Canada. We use #2 Robertson 1/2" x #8 by the thousands! Don't by screws that are cheep and use a brand name driver. They stay on the driver in all positions and some times after installed you can't pull the driver out!

I was told that Roberston is a Canadian thing and Philips is USA.

Menessis

goose
03-04-2015, 10:23 AM
Slotted screws bear witness to fine hand craftsmanship of centuries past. Well executed they are the best looking fastener.

Phillips are the 20 century, umbicuious, quick and dirty fastener associated with mass production. The fact that its design crossed over into other venues, such as deck screws, Is only due to its mass acceptance and no major power driven competition for quite some time.

Allen head has been around for a while, but are not suitable for quick loading of screws and too expensive an alternative in general. Though pretty good looking.

Torx is the best of all designs, in as much as general acceptance, use in industry and by consumer alike.

Still, most people don't have a Torx driver at home, nor are you likely to find torx screws in an Ikea furniture kit.

I'm sure there are many, specialized fasteners available, but too un-common to be of significant impact in our lives.

Tony Ennis
03-04-2015, 12:35 PM
I love Robertson screws. I used rough red oak planks for my shop floor and used nothing but Robertsons. No strip-outs, no breaks. I am cured of slot and phillips-head screws.

justanengineer
03-04-2015, 12:44 PM
I prefer spline drive or barring that, torx.

Jon Heron
03-04-2015, 04:06 PM
Torx has nothing on Robertson, they strip out considerably easier, are more difficult to clean out after being painted over, do not stick to the driver (no taper) and typically always leave a burr on the head after being torqued down, due to the fine edges of the 6 pointed star...
:cool:
Jon

confederatemule
03-04-2015, 04:41 PM
I use

Chester
03-04-2015, 05:36 PM
There is only one srew, a Robertson.

http://www.robertsonscrew.com/products.html

They are not a square drive, but a tapered square drive, which makes them stick to the driver. Real drivers have an insert added to the the tip, as shown in that link above, that is how you can recognize them. You guys are having trouble because you are confusing those inferior square drive with real Robertsons.

I throw away all slotted and Philips screws, where practical. The only place I allow slotted screws is a door hinge installation, etc, where some dummy might paint over them.

J Tiers
03-04-2015, 07:01 PM
Still, most people don't have a Torx driver at home, nor are you likely to find torx screws in an Ikea furniture kit.


Gosh, I must have 3 sets of the common ones, plus I dunno how many screwdriver insert tips of torx, and a bunch of socket wrench torx drivers.

Have some robertson insert tips, also, for times when the confounded pieces of crap show up... gotta be able to remove and throw away the &^%$#@! things. :D

Doc Nickel
03-04-2015, 07:22 PM
Here's a perfect explanation as to why we have so many different types of screws:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

And you guys are textbook illustrations. :D "No, this one's ideal, we need to use it!" "Aw, that one sucks, this one's the perfect solution!" "No, we can't use that in [X weird situation] so therefore this one's far superior!" Ad nauseum. :)

Doc.

wierdscience
03-04-2015, 08:04 PM
I hae had very good results with these new Spax T-star Plus screw heads and driver bits (http://www.spax.com/en/technical-terms/spax-t-star-plus). We used bucketloads of them in our recent house renovation. They seem to be a variation on the Torx-Plus drive concept detailed by PixMan above, but with an additional central indentation on the female and a matching prominence on the driver. They work very nicely with cordless drills/drivers, staying put on the bit whether horizontal or overhead, and not camming out even under huge torque.

+1 For Spax products,quality product and each box comes with the proper driver.:)

J Tiers
03-04-2015, 08:07 PM
Here's a perfect explanation as to why we have so many different types of screws:



And you guys are textbook illustrations. :D "No, this one's ideal, we need to use it!" "Aw, that one sucks, this one's the perfect solution!" "No, we can't use that in [X weird situation] so therefore this one's far superior!" Ad nauseum. :)

Doc.

Ah, yes, the voice of reason (s why we need lots of standards).

Truth is, most of the standards have their place. Maybe some "mee too" versions, like Frearson, really do NOT have a place, but the different standards serve or served legitimate needs, as and when they were developed.

There is NO reason why any one of them should be rammed down everyone's throat as the one universal solution that you will use and like, or else....

Paul Alciatore
03-04-2015, 08:31 PM
I think this discussion illustrates why there are so many different standards. We all have different ideas of which one is the best one. Simple as that. If there really were one that was clearly superior in all cases, then there would be only one standard because no one would buy the others.

The marketplace DOES sort it out.




Here's a perfect explanation as to why we have so many different types of screws:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

And you guys are textbook illustrations. :D "No, this one's ideal, we need to use it!" "Aw, that one sucks, this one's the perfect solution!" "No, we can't use that in [X weird situation] so therefore this one's far superior!" Ad nauseum. :)

Doc.

goose
03-04-2015, 08:58 PM
Gosh, I must have 3 sets of the common ones, plus I dunno how many screwdriver insert tips of torx, and a bunch of socket wrench torx drivers.



I said most people don't have Torx drivers, not us home shop machinists geeks !

mickeyf
03-04-2015, 11:20 PM
What might be the major problem with both slotted and Phillips screws is that there are lots of drivers that look like they fit, but but in fact fit only well enough to bugger up the screw.

With Robertson this much, much, less of an issue. In most cases, if the driver is not the right size it's pretty obvious.

MikeL46
03-05-2015, 12:00 AM
With the exception of Philips and JIS I like them all, as long as I'm using quality, North American tools and fasteners. Slotted screws are only for hand use but feel really good when the driver properly fits the screw. I must have 15 or more good slotted screwdrivers and close to 50 other screwdrivers. Wiha makes the best I currently use.

Mike

Puckdropper
03-05-2015, 12:25 AM
What might be the major problem with both slotted and Phillips screws is that there are lots of drivers that look like they fit, but but in fact fit only well enough to bugger up the screw.

With Robertson this much, much, less of an issue. In most cases, if the driver is not the right size it's pretty obvious.

I believe Torx is the same way... It's very difficult to turn a Torx head screw with the wrong size bit.

Sometimes the fact that an undersized Phillips bit will work in a larger screw comes in handy. On a model locomotive I was working on, the screw was a #1 head, but the hole it went in to was only big enough for the #0 driver. I had to use the #0 driver to put the screw in.

TNDave
03-05-2015, 09:28 AM
My vote is for Torx! If I had my way, slotted screws would be banned from the face of the earth, not far behind would be Phillips. In commonly available screws I prefer Torx (Torx plus is better, but not common in general use), then hex socket, then square drive (Robertson a little better, but again not common use), Then Japanese cross point, after that, ban everything. 8>)

TNDave
03-05-2015, 09:32 AM
I believe Torx is the same way... It's very difficult to turn a Torx head screw with the wrong size bit.

---------------
I have used one size down Torx driver to drive screws at an angle. BMW motorcycles are very heavy users of Torx, and I had a couple panel screws that were under another panel that normally had to be removed first. I would just pull the outside panel up a little, then use the next size down driver (T20 on a T25 screw) to remove and install those screws.

loose nut
03-05-2015, 09:54 AM
then square drive (Robertson a little better, but again not common use),

Thar should be rephrased to "not common where you are".