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Armilite
03-05-2015, 02:50 PM
I'm looking at a Vertical CNC Mill - Kitamura Mycenter2 that the guy says:

#1 "The machine has recently developed a problem where the monitor isn't working correctly. It is only displaying the bottom half and flickering a bit. I think it probably needs a new screen - or at the very least some repair work.

#2 It also has a problem where it sometimes displays a servo error when powering on. After hitting reset, the problem usually goes away and it runs okay thereafter. It's only an issue when first powering on for the day.
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#1 Can the Monitor maybe upgraded to a small Color Flat Screen? Does it use a VGA connection? I see an original monochrome one used on ebay for $159. Could it be the video card also?

#2 Any idea what may fix the Servo Error problem?

Thanks
Rich

MaxHeadRoom
03-05-2015, 03:18 PM
Kitamura typically used Fanuc controls, just about 100% proprietary and expensive $$$ parts, otherwise a good control.
If Fanuc, what control/age?
Max.

Toolguy
03-05-2015, 04:17 PM
I used to use a 1984 Hurco at a place I worked in the early 2000s. That one had a history of abuse and neglect before I got there. It would take numerous tries to power up sometimes. After hours of trying to find the issue, we finally discovered a wire on the x encoder that was intermittently making contact. Once we got that hooked back up solid it ran like a champ.

rklopp
03-05-2015, 06:03 PM
I would go ask on PM. There are likely to be many times more folks familiar with a MyCenter over there. Substituting a monitor should be relatively easy.

adatesman
03-05-2015, 07:08 PM
They also used Yasnac. Ours was an I-80, IIRC. Nice little machines, and yes, hop over to PM.

macona
03-05-2015, 07:34 PM
Fanuc parts are not that bad. You can often find what you need on ebay. If not there are other sources. That is what I primarily used to work on.

Usually the monitors run at an odd frequency. There is a box used to connect old video game systems to more modern monitors, I used one on a Makino MC-40 with a Fanuc system to install a 12" LC in place of the old CRT that had it's red gun die.

Need more info on the servo error. There is usually a error number that will come up, that is what you really need to diagnose. Usually not a big deal.

Armilite
03-06-2015, 01:24 AM
I would go ask on PM. There are likely to be many times more folks familiar with a MyCenter over there. Substituting a monitor should be relatively easy.
================================================== ============
Sorry, what is PM?

Armilite
03-06-2015, 01:33 AM
Kitamura typically used Fanuc controls, just about 100% proprietary and expensive $$$ parts, otherwise a good control.
If Fanuc, what control/age?
Max.
====================================
I think it's a 1980 Model from one of the photo's. I had already sent him an e-mail to ask some questions about it. Waiting for a response back. It's about 4hrs from me. I'll have to e-mail him back for the error code it's giving.

The Ad is here with some photo's. Ad doesn't say what Control it has.
http://ottumwa.craigslist.org/hvo/4885660665.html

Is there a way to upload a photo here. I see an insert button, but it asks for a url.

Rich

macona
03-06-2015, 01:53 AM
Looks like an old Fanuc. The shop I worked at had a couple lathes that had a similar control, think they were takisawa. Also the Kuraki HBM had a similar control.

No, a generic monitor will not connect. Chances are it is TTL level. But from the image issues it may just be bad capacitors in the vertical scan circuit.

PM is Practical Machinist

Armilite
03-06-2015, 02:00 AM
Fanuc parts are not that bad. You can often find what you need on ebay. If not there are other sources. That is what I primarily used to work on.

Usually the monitors run at an odd frequency. There is a box used to connect old video game systems to more modern monitors, I used one on a Makino MC-40 with a Fanuc system to install a 12" LC in place of the old CRT that had it's red gun die.

Need more info on the servo error. There is usually a error number that will come up, that is what you really need to diagnose. Usually not a big deal.
================================================== =====
Here is his reply below. It must be a Fanuc Control, since it needs a "Fanuc 6M Monitor". Do you have a link to this control box you talk about? I have access to small Dell Computer flat screens from ISU Surplus cheap, that have both VGA, and a newer type video connector, I was hoping to use one.

====>
1) Yes, 220V 3 phase. The spindle motor is 6-2/3 HP, the XY servos 4/5 HP each, and the Z servo 1-1/2 HP.


2) I think the way to load would be to put the machine on rollers and push over to the door, then use an outside fork lift to load onto a trailer. Unfortunately, I have low ceilings, so we probably can't use an inside fork lift. Fortunately, the machine is only about 10 feet from the door. I know a company nearby that would let us borrow their fork truck as a favor.


3) From the manual, height 94", width 74", depth 73". You'll probably want to leave some walking room around it on all sides.


4) The white cable is for a DNC retrofit we added years ago. There is another cable for RS-232 comms. The machine uses G-code only. You either need to key in the G-code on the machine, or send the G-code from a PC via RS-232 or DNC. As a side note, we haven't used the comms in a few years, I assume they work, but I don't have an easy way to test them. The last few times this machine was used it was by typing in the code by hand.


5) I do have a machine shop. I'm getting rid of this machine since it's a bit old and I'm not using it much. It is still powered in, so we could run it if you like. I use GibbsCAM as my CAM software with my other CNCs.


6) This machine could certainly do that. However, if you don't have machining experience, that's a big project to start with. This being an older machine, there will be a slightly steeper learning curve. Of course, the advantage is that you probably won't find a running vertical machining center any cheaper. Also, this machine is very heavy and solid. It makes good cuts with good finish. In my opinion, they overbuilt the physical aspect of it a bit.


7) The monitor is some crazy proprietary thing. I think you can find a used/refurbished one for about $500, but you'll have to do some looking. You might be able to get some Chinese compatable LCD for about the same price or less. You'll want to search for "Fanuc 6M Monitor". I believe people also make VGA adapters for these, where you can then hook up any old monitor.

When I first listed the machine for sale, the monitor worked fine. I was originally asking for $5,000, so I knocked off a couple grand to compensate for the hassle of having to replace it. If I don't sell the machine soon, I will probably repair it myself. However, I'm busy with other things and would really just like to get this machine out of here.

Also, when I first noticed the monitor was bad, I tried blowing some hot air in the back of it with a heat gun. It then started working normally for a few minutes. I've heard that old capacitors can "dry out" and that heat can make them start working. So it may be as simple as replacing some capacitor with a new one (although I certainly wouldn't count on it).


8) I have a full set of print manuals. They go into some detail. Nothing digital though, I'm afraid.


Ames is about a 2.5 hour drive from here. If you want to make the trip down, you're more than welcome to take a look and see it run without further commitment. We can still jog it around and do tool changes even without the monitor fully working.
<==================================

I'm e-mailing him back on the Servo error.

Rich

macona
03-06-2015, 03:29 AM
I would just get the monitor repaired, it is most likely bad caps like he mentions. We usually bought from these guys: http://www.fanucworld.com/contact_info.html

You can get a refurbed monitor too: http://www.ebay.com/itm/FANUC-CNC-9-Replacement-Monitor-Refurbished-90-day-Warranty-NICE-/151279710499?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2338f93123

I would not hold my breath that the monitor adapters will work on a control that old. That is going to be pretty non-standard. You need to find out the part number for the monitor inside and see the specs.

MaxHeadRoom
03-06-2015, 10:06 AM
The 6 is an older machine that most likely still has the DC brushed motors (black yellow cap), it is important to do preventative maintenance on these, if not been done then the brushes may need replacing and carbon deposits cleaned out.
Same thing for the DC spindle.
The video is original EGA, lower scan rate, and most monitors of this type have long gone to the dump.
BTW for replacement brushes go to Helwig Carbon.
Max.

achtanelion
03-06-2015, 08:05 PM
If the original monitor is EGA, you might want to look at one of these: http://www.jammaboards.com/store/cga-ega-yuv-to-vga-arcade-hd-converter-pcb-gbs-8220-gbs-8220.html?sef_rewrite=1

As a side note, I can remember being impressed as hell by the graphics when I saw my first EGA machine. I feel old now.

J

macona
03-06-2015, 09:26 PM
EGA didn't even exist until 4 years after this mill was made.

Armilite
03-07-2015, 01:53 AM
I would just get the monitor repaired, it is most likely bad caps like he mentions. We usually bought from these guys: http://www.fanucworld.com/contact_info.html

You can get a refurbed monitor too: http://www.ebay.com/itm/FANUC-CNC-9-Replacement-Monitor-Refurbished-90-day-Warranty-NICE-/151279710499?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2338f93123

I would not hold my breath that the monitor adapters will work on a control that old. That is going to be pretty non-standard. You need to find out the part number for the monitor inside and see the specs.
================================================== ==
Thanks for the reply and links.
Rich

Armilite
03-07-2015, 01:55 AM
If the original monitor is EGA, you might want to look at one of these: http://www.jammaboards.com/store/cga-ega-yuv-to-vga-arcade-hd-converter-pcb-gbs-8220-gbs-8220.html?sef_rewrite=1

As a side note, I can remember being impressed as hell by the graphics when I saw my first EGA machine. I feel old now.
J
=================================================
Thanks for the reply and link.
Rich

Armilite
03-07-2015, 02:13 AM
Here is his response to the trouble codes, and my question about running it with a VFD. I only have 220 1 phase at my house. City won't let me get 3 phase. Hope to buy another place in the country where I can get 3 phase, and have a bigger shop area.

=============================================>
1) It's alarm 400 & 401, I think. They either both come together, or nothing at all. It's always fixed by a reboot or by pushing the reset button on one of the contactors inside the cabinet (although sometimes it takes a couple trys). It hasn't done it recently, the last several times I've powered on it started up right away. And it only ever happens when the machine is first powered on. It's never happened after it starts running.

2) I think you would want one large VFD for the machine, but I'm not 100% sure. As far as I know, all the motors are DC, so the 3 phase AC wouldn't even have to be particularly good. You should probably check with someone who knows, though. It's a big machine to be running off a VFD (although I understand that technology is getting pretty good these days).
<============================================

I was wondering if I needed, more than one VFD to run this machine?

Rich

Armilite
03-07-2015, 02:26 AM
EGA didn't even exist until 4 years after this mill was made.
================================================== ======================

Is it EGA, or VGA? I was told some of these older machines, had a VGA 9 pin connector inside the box, that you could just run a cable to the outside, and hook up a VGA Monitor to it. With Flat Screens having VGA connectors, it would be easy to mount one over the outside of the control. I have to go look at this one yet to see if it has a VGA connector inside, or not, but the the rebuilt original one was fairly cheap at $350. I can live with the original monitor. I do have a buddy who used to run an electronics shop, that maybe able to just fix the bad caps also, or help me install the rebuilt monitor.

Rich

macona
03-07-2015, 02:26 AM
You can search online for info on those errors. 400 is an overload. Might be carbon building up in the motors.

A VFD will not work. There is a chance you can run the machine off of single phase. I am not sure. You can probably jump one phase to another to make it run. Other than that a RPC or a Phase Perfect.

Armilite
03-07-2015, 02:28 AM
Does anyone use Alibre CAD/CAM with one of these machines, now called Geomagic I think?

gcude
03-07-2015, 04:41 AM
================================================== ======================

Is it EGA, or VGA? I was told some of these older machines, had a VGA 9 pin connector inside the box, that you could just run a cable to the outside, and hook up a VGA Monitor to it. With Flat Screens having VGA connectors, it would be easy to mount one over the outside of the control. I have to go look at this one yet to see if it has a VGA connector inside, or not, but the the rebuilt original one was fairly cheap at $350. I can live with the original monitor. I do have a buddy who used to run an electronics shop, that maybe able to just fix the bad caps also, or help me install the rebuilt monitor.

Rich

You would probably need something like a really old NEC MultiSync monitor to hook up to the 9-pin connector (if it is there). You will more than likely need a very low scan rate capable monitor and the old NEC MultiSync monitors could sync with just about anything. They are big and heavy and you can probably still find them if you look hard enough, but hope you only have to get a simple and inexpensive repair done on the existing monitor. I have been eyeing the following box to adapt newer VGA flat screens to my Hurco mill to replace its monochrome monitors.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171436710669?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

MaxHeadRoom
03-07-2015, 10:08 AM
You would probably need something like a really old NEC MultiSync monitor to hook up to the 9-pin connector (if it is there).

Yes, I used to use TTX multiscan monitors to replace the colour monitors on the Fanuc 10 etc, these were compatible with XT/AT VGA,EGA,CGA TTL/analogue etc.
Unfortunately they stopped making them when the later graphic systems became popular.
Max.

DR
03-07-2015, 10:44 AM
Does anyone use Alibre CAD/CAM with one of these machines, now called Geomagic I think?

Is there such a thing as Alibre CAM? CAD, yes.

Rosco-P
03-07-2015, 02:18 PM
I would go ask on PM. There are likely to be many times more folks familiar with a MyCenter over there. Substituting a monitor should be relatively easy.

Don who runs PM also has replaced a number of failed and aging monitors on older equipment that he's bought to resell. You might post over on PM (PracticalMachinist) if you haven't already.

Armilite
03-07-2015, 03:00 PM
Is there such a thing as Alibre CAM? CAD, yes.
================================================== ===========
I believe you need Alibre version 2011, or higher to use the CAM 3.0 module. Alibre 3D was like $100-$150, and the CAM module was $700-$800. I know Alibre was changed to, or bought out, I think by Geo Magic in either 2013/2014, but don't know if they still have the CAM module.

http://www.alibre.com/

Rich

Armilite
03-07-2015, 03:05 PM
You can search online for info on those errors. 400 is an overload. Might be carbon building up in the motors.

A VFD will not work. There is a chance you can run the machine off of single phase. I am not sure. You can probably jump one phase to another to make it run. Other than that a RPC or a Phase Perfect.
================================================== ===============
I can't get 3 phase 220 where I'm at. If I can't use a VFD to run it on 1 phase 220, then I will have to pass on it. I thought that's what a VFD did.

Rich

Armilite
03-07-2015, 08:42 PM
Is there such a thing as Alibre CAM? CAD, yes.
================================================== ==========
It looks like they use a Program module called Visual Cam today with GeoMagic Design.
http://mecsoft.com/DataSheets/VisualCADCAM2015/DataSheet.pdf

Armilite
03-07-2015, 09:04 PM
Here is his response to the trouble codes, and my question about running it with a VFD. I only have 220 1 phase at my house. City won't let me get 3 phase. Hope to buy another place in the country where I can get 3 phase, and have a bigger shop area.

=============================================>
1) It's alarm 400 & 401, I think. They either both come together, or nothing at all. It's always fixed by a reboot or by pushing the reset button on one of the contactors inside the cabinet (although sometimes it takes a couple trys). It hasn't done it recently, the last several times I've powered on it started up right away. And it only ever happens when the machine is first powered on. It's never happened after it starts running.

2) I think you would want one large VFD for the machine, but I'm not 100% sure. As far as I know, all the motors are DC, so the 3 phase AC wouldn't even have to be particularly good. You should probably check with someone who knows, though. It's a big machine to be running off a VFD (although I understand that technology is getting pretty good these days).
<============================================

I was wondering if I needed, more than one VFD to run this machine?

Rich
================================================== ==
I found this web site with Trouble Codes info.
http://fanuc.pennineuk.com/fanuc-6-alarms.htm

400
The control received the X, Y or Z axis overload signal

401
The READY signal (VRDY) of the X, Y or Z axis velocity control has turned off

Not sure what this all really means above, or what may need fixed to correct it.

Rich

Armilite
03-07-2015, 09:24 PM
I think I'm out of luck on this machine, I just measured my garage/shop door height at 86 1/2" and this machine alone is 94". The rollers/cart to get it moved inside, will add even more height to it. I'm still waiting to get my quote to move it from the moving company. Since one guy on here, said I couldn't use one of them VFDs things to run it on my 220 1 phase, that kills it also. I think this could be cleaned up, and be a nice machine for someone. Wish I had a place to store it. Thanks to all who Helped with Idea's/Info.

Rich

Armilite
03-08-2015, 12:13 AM
You mean this VFD on ebay wouldn't run this machine?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-5-5KW-220V-7-6HP-25A-/261772143256?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf2d5ea98

Variable Frequency Drive Inverter VFD NEW

7.6HP 5.5KW 220V-250V

This VFD can be used for constant torque loads(such as hard starting:Air conpressor,HVAC units) and variable torque loads(such as pumps,fans,etc) It can be used as a motor speed control and a phase converter.The inpute for this VFD is 1 or 3 phase as you like.You can control different speed when you use this VFD.Most of our customers bought this VFD from us to use for:Lathes,Mill,car Hoists,Pumps&conveyors,etc.This item use sine wave PWN(SPWM) for the control system and performace excellently.

Technical Paramer

1.Inpute voltage:220Vą15%(we also stock 110V and 380V+/-15%,please contact us for item stock)

2.Output voltage:208-240VAC(analogous to input voltage)

3.Input Frequency:48-63HZ

4.Outpute Frequency:0-400HZ

5.Input phase:1 phase or 3 phase

6.Output phase:3 phase

7.warranty:1 year

(we also stock 4KW 7A, 2.2KW 10A 220-250V, 3KW 220-250V and 380V modol, please contact us for stock )

gcude
03-08-2015, 12:20 AM
I think I'm out of luck on this machine, I just measured my garage/shop door height at 86 1/2" and this machine alone is 94". The rollers/cart to get it moved inside, will add even more height to it. I'm still waiting to get my quote to move it from the moving company. Since one guy on here, said I couldn't use one of them VFDs things to run it on my 220 1 phase, that kills it also. I think this could be cleaned up, and be a nice machine for someone. Wish I had a place to store it. Thanks to all who Helped with Idea's/Info.

Rich

You need to look at the top of the machine and see if the cable/air line track is looped up there adding extra height. If so, you should be able to easily and temporarily disconnect the cable track from it's mounts and lay it over. This might save you a foot or more in the height to get you inside. Other option is to remove the head temporarily.

macona
03-08-2015, 12:27 AM
You mean this VFD on ebay wouldn't run this machine?

No, VFDs will only run motors. You will either need a RPS or a Phase Perfect.

Usually you can block the Z axis at a low position and pull off the Z servo to get it in the garage. It is not hard to do.

gcude
03-08-2015, 12:28 AM
You mean this VFD on ebay wouldn't run this machine?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-5-5KW-220V-7-6HP-25A-/261772143256?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf2d5ea98

Variable Frequency Drive Inverter VFD NEW

7.6HP 5.5KW 220V-250V

This VFD can be used for constant torque loads(such as hard starting:Air conpressor,HVAC units) and variable torque loads(such as pumps,fans,etc) It can be used as a motor speed control and a phase converter.The inpute for this VFD is 1 or 3 phase as you like.You can control different speed when you use this VFD.Most of our customers bought this VFD from us to use for:Lathes,Mill,car Hoists,Pumps&conveyors,etc.This item use sine wave PWN(SPWM) for the control system and performace excellently.

Technical Paramer

1.Inpute voltage:220Vą15%(we also stock 110V and 380V+/-15%,please contact us for item stock)

2.Output voltage:208-240VAC(analogous to input voltage)

3.Input Frequency:48-63HZ

4.Outpute Frequency:0-400HZ

5.Input phase:1 phase or 3 phase

6.Output phase:3 phase

7.warranty:1 year

(we also stock 4KW 7A, 2.2KW 10A 220-250V, 3KW 220-250V and 380V modol, please contact us for stock )

I think you are only to run one motor from one VFD, but others will verify this shortly. For starting out, you will probably be served well by a 10hp or larger Rotary, but for the ultimate, you can always look at a Phase Perfect and I've heard that American Rotary even has their own knock-off of the Phase Perfect units, at lower cost. American Rotary can help you select the right size and type for your needs, just give them a call. BTW, I got my Phase Perfect through American Rotary, but I'm not a paid spokesperson, just a satisfied customer.

Armilite
03-08-2015, 04:40 AM
No, VFDs will only run motors. You will either need a RPS or a Phase Perfect.

Usually you can block the Z axis at a low position and pull off the Z servo to get it in the garage. It is not hard to do.
================================================== ============
Ok, that sounds possible to maybe get it in the garage. Sounds like my main problem is solving the electrical side. Been quite a while since I checked with the power company, maybe they have changed their rules on 3 phase at a home.

Rich

Armilite
03-08-2015, 04:55 AM
I think you are only to run one motor from one VFD, but others will verify this shortly. For starting out, you will probably be served well by a 10hp or larger Rotary, but for the ultimate, you can always look at a Phase Perfect and I've heard that American Rotary even has their own knock-off of the Phase Perfect units, at lower cost. American Rotary can help you select the right size and type for your needs, just give them a call. BTW, I got my Phase Perfect through American Rotary, but I'm not a paid spokesperson, just a satisfied customer.
================================================== ============
I have only seen photo's of it so far, and I'm new to this CNC Large Stuff. Do most CNC machines like this, need more than (1) Power Source? My understanding is, it's hard wired into one 3 phase power source, and needs a certain AMP rating circuit breaker. The machine power supply, then provides the power to the Table, and Spindle, motors from that source to run everything. I know it has a 6 3/4hp Spindle Motor. This VFD was rated for a 7.6hp motor. I wrote the seller to see what he reccomends, and my options.

Rich

Armilite
03-08-2015, 05:00 AM
I think you are only to run one motor from one VFD, but others will verify this shortly. For starting out, you will probably be served well by a 10hp or larger Rotary, but for the ultimate, you can always look at a Phase Perfect and I've heard that American Rotary even has their own knock-off of the Phase Perfect units, at lower cost. American Rotary can help you select the right size and type for your needs, just give them a call. BTW, I got my Phase Perfect through American Rotary, but I'm not a paid spokesperson, just a satisfied customer.
================================================== =
A while back I was looking at a 3 phase, Bridge Port CNC, and the guy ran it off (1) VFD, but it was like only 2hp. This machine is much bigger, and has a tool changer. So it may need it's own power source also.

DR
03-08-2015, 05:40 AM
================================================== =
A while back I was looking at a 3 phase, Bridge Port CNC, and the guy ran it off (1) VFD, but it was like only 2hp. This machine is much bigger, and has a tool changer. So it may need it's own power source also.

No, it may have appeared he ran it all off a VFD, but it can't be done.

He probably only ran the spindle with a separate 120V line for the control and the servos. I have done it that way too.

Armilite
03-08-2015, 06:20 AM
No, it may have appeared he ran it all off a VFD, but it can't be done.

He probably only ran the spindle with a separate 120V line for the control and the servos. I have done it that way too.
================================================== =============
Yes, I think that's what he said he did. A VFD for the Spindle motor, and 110 for the Control. Been a while.

Rich

MaxHeadRoom
03-08-2015, 11:35 AM
================================================== ============
Sounds like my main problem is solving the electrical side. Been quite a while since I checked with the power company, maybe they have changed their rules on 3 phase at a home.

Rich

The early Fanuc's 6 etc, had to be hooked up with the correct phase rotation, the manual suggest a phase meter to obtain the UVW supply terminals in order to do this.
Max.

macona
03-08-2015, 12:45 PM
These kind of mills rarely use a generic 3 phase motor for the spindle. They almost always use the same type of motor as what they are using for the axis drives. And like Max said, probably yellow cap fanuc brushed motors. This is not a Bridgeport.

DR
03-08-2015, 02:01 PM
Just my opinion, this is a thirty-five year old mill with problems, it's hardly what I'd recommend to a CNC noob. Parts are readily available, but at some point old machines become bottomless money pits to dump more and more into. You spend more time repairing than machining with them.

justanengineer
03-08-2015, 02:40 PM
Just my opinion, this is a thirty-five year old mill with problems, it's hardly what I'd recommend to a CNC noob. Parts are readily available, but at some point old machines become bottomless money pits to dump more and more into. You spend more time repairing than machining with them.

Mostly agree but it depends on the individual's electrical/electronic knowledge and patience, and whether/not the individual is repairing the ancient control or replacing/retrofitting. I'd suggest leaving repair of the ancient beasts to the EEs and electronics techs.

Something else to be aware of is to simply make sure youre double checking the basics to ensure it has a standard CAT/BT-30, 40 (dont think they came w/50) or some other common taper, somewhat decent speeds and feeds, etc. That machine was from the somewhat early days and I've seen more than one person w/a "smoking deal" on a 35, 45, etc oddball taper machine that nobody wanted bc they couldnt find tooling or consumable parts (pull studs, etc) at a reasonable cost.