PDA

View Full Version : another shot in the caliper wars.



loose nut
03-06-2015, 09:58 AM
The first link is a mostly honest review of Chinese calipers and somewhat funny

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvszAb0Y0Ec

The next vid isn't about calipers but fast forward to 3:55 and he does show how to adjust a cheap set of calipers to get them most out of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y6n8MSKK8A

Doozer
03-06-2015, 10:14 AM
My personal best solution
is a good caliper that is a Mititoyo digital
and a general shop use caliper that is a $20 Dial type from China.
These two cover a wide range of different uses and accuracies.

-Doozer

MrSleepy
03-06-2015, 11:31 AM
The chinese verniers always seem to get a bad mark for battery life , so everyone buys LR44s in blister packs to keep stocks of the them.

Most of the battery life issue is the use of LR44 and not SR44 batterys. They have very different voltage vs usage curves and the OCV of LR44 drops significantly with use. SR44s have an almost flat OCV curve and provide their rated voltage until almost absolutely flat.

SR44 cost a bit more but are well worth the extra.

interiorpainter
03-06-2015, 11:45 AM
True about the battery.
I tried the sr44 in one of those. I was not worth the extra cost. Battery life was still poor.
OTAH put a drained by POS battery in a Mitutoyo and it works.
The chineese should market AA operated calipers.

Mike Nash
03-06-2015, 11:58 AM
The chinese verniers always seem to get a bad mark for battery life

Where do you put a battery (cell) in your verniers?

(Sorry, but this is a bit like calling a Kindle a paperback.)

Willy
03-06-2015, 12:00 PM
They should make calipers that turns off completely, and not just turn off only the display.
Why complain about about poor fuel consumption in your car when all you do is take it out of gear but leave it running?

dian
03-06-2015, 12:49 PM
well, i recently left my aldi, $10 caliper on for a week (o.k., it doesnt turn off) and i was still able to use it today. it is accurate too.

Paul Alciatore
03-06-2015, 02:50 PM
Beat me to it!

Perhaps his vernier calipers have a night light.




Where do you put a battery (cell) in your verniers?

(Sorry, but this is a bit like calling a Kindle a paperback.)

Toolguy
03-06-2015, 03:21 PM
Probably backlit like a Kindle to see the lines better.:rolleyes:

PStechPaul
03-06-2015, 03:23 PM
The cheap calipers that turn off completely also lose their zero. Those that keep zero just turn off the display, and battery current changes only from about 50 uA to 40 uA. I have found that batteries last several months, and are easy and cheap enough to replace. Or if not needed for a long time, just remove it. However, the spring contacts that hold the battery are fragile and subject to degradation, wear and corrosion, and may fail after a number of battery changes. Bending them tighter and cleaning usually work.

I agree that a dial type may be best for machine-side shop use, with a good digital for layout and inspection, but inexpensive digital types are also OK. Calipers are also called "guessing sticks" and really should not be used for anything needing better than 0.005" tolerance. Also I have found that the outside measurement may be OK, but inside measurement can be off by at least 0.005" due to dull and inaccurate grinding of the points.

There seem to be two schools of thought on calipers and probably not many will be convinced to transfer from one school to the other.

"Real" machinists use micrometers, gage blocks and height gauges! :rolleyes:

oldtiffie
03-06-2015, 07:03 PM
I don't have any problems with my Chinese (very good by the way) calipers as I normally don't use them for direct measurement/s but as comparators (where I use the job or a slip gauge as a known reference).

I always "zero" my calipers both before I start and during the job.

I "zero" or "set" them against a known reference - i.e. the job itself or a slip gauge or a micrometer "setting stick".

I do the same with micrometers and the like as well.

I can't see the sense about complaining about the caliper or battery if you really did (or should have "known" or at least suspected) that those "Chinese" calipers would not be reliable or accurate or consistent enough to do the job adequately - and yet you (still?) bought it.

kf2qd
03-06-2015, 11:50 PM
"Real" machinists use micrometers, gage blocks and height gauges! :rolleyes:

"Real" machinists get the job done, and don't have time to worry about what others think of their tools. They know, and understand the limits and use the tool that gets the job done. No need to waste time measuring tenths when a 1/4 will do...

oldtiffie
03-07-2015, 12:25 AM
Good - very good and topical - response kf2qd.

I guess that all the "real" machinists are all at the top grade too - what else?.

I guess that I could say that I've had a bit to do with "machining" over a reasonable amount of time and I've never met (that I know of) any "real" and by inference "unreal" machinists.

Since I am no longer in the "9 to 5" and perhaps by inference "pro" machining (and "Fitting") bit that I am almost by definition a "has/was been"? ("never was or could be") and not to be called or regarded as a "real" (or any sort of) a "machinist".

I am just a retired bloke in OZ who more or less and pretty well just occasionally potters around in his "shed" (shed = shop in OZ) doing nothing of any substantial skill level or importance - if, as and when I like to - or not.

Here is my shed:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Making_sense1.jpg

"Hovering" (as in the UK) the house carpet:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Hoovering1.jpg

The "Shed" ("Cave"?) lounge:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Caveupgrade1.jpg

My wife and I in our "dotage" (aka "old age"):

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Super-guys1.jpg

PStechPaul
03-07-2015, 02:44 AM
Just so there's no misunderstanding, my remark about "real machinists" was entirely facetious, and I meant no offense. I agree that the goal is to "git 'er done" to whatever specs are actually needed using whatever means that can produce those results efficiently.

I am still learning, of course, but sometimes I think we take more time and effort than necessary to make some of the parts. However, the instructor's motivation is probably to teach how to achieve such tolerances and unusual contours and fine finishes, rather than actual necessity. It's just a hobby for me, mostly, or a way to learn how to make certain things I may need for work-related projects, but many of the students are very likely preparing for careers in machining and may be held to higher standards.

sawlog
03-07-2015, 05:46 AM
I will make one observation I do not own a good pair of digital calipers, I a have a el cheapo set that isn't a accurate but it serves a purpose. If i need or want better calipers I grab my starret dial ones. I see the need in a setting that you are machining for profit or needing all the functions of a digital caliper it would pay to purchase one. But for my home shop it is an expensive luxury

SirLesPatterson
03-07-2015, 06:25 AM
I have had a set of 'cheap calipers' for about 3 years now. They work great and the action is smooth. I always have the thought in the back of my head that they are supposed to be junk but they seems extremely repeatable, reliable, and they hold zero exceptionally well. The battery life is great too as I use them all the time and have changed the battery once or twice. I can't shake the 'these should be crummy' feeling from my head so I often times will double check with a non digital mic or my Mitutoyo digital mic and these cheap calipers seems to always be spot on. I don't get it... they seem good. Maybe they were made by someone who took pride in their work and got fired for not meeting quota. I even let me 7 year old daughter use them because she is gentle and respectful. The boy on the other hand would probably try to use them as a mini pick axe for mining ore so OFF LIMITS to him. In other words, I try not to abuse them.

Tony Ennis
03-07-2015, 08:22 AM
My Chinese 'Aerospace' dial calipers seems to be as accurate as a guess-o-meter is supposed to be. It measures within a thou or so of my micrometers. I'm pretty sure that 'Aerospace' means the calipers were made from titanium billet.

JoeFin
03-07-2015, 09:05 AM
To all the "Real Machinist" using Chi-com calipers I wish to extend my apologies and sympathies in advance.

More importantly I would like to know which planet we are discussing being on .BTW. My experience with "Happy-Fart" $10 calipers were similar to those presented in the video and even worse by the way.

For 1. the "Inside / Outside" measurements differed by .006" right out of the box. They never would "Zero - Out" to be the same unless you ground them to be the same.

2nd. First time they were dropped - they were DONE ! The upper and lower beam were now longer square to each other and it developed a nasty burr on the rack.

3rd and most importantly - they "Felt Spongy" / soft and never definitive when closed upon the object being measured. Actually they would differ 4 - 8 thou depending "HOW" you closed them.

If I have to use Happy Fart calipers to be a REAL Machinist - well then you can count me out. I'm more of the kind that gets the correct measurement then works to achieve that level of accuracy as opposed to "Well I live in a world of .010" Fudge Factor.

And
Tony Ennis - BTW you forgot the Laughing Icon in your post - I almost shot milk out my nose when I read "I'm pretty sure that 'Aerospace' means the calipers were made from titanium billet"

Lew Hartswick
03-07-2015, 09:18 AM
"Real" machinists get the job done, and don't have time to worry about what others think of their tools. They know, and understand the limits and use the tool that gets the job done. No need to waste time measuring tenths when a 1/4 will do...
Never use a micrometer if the job calls for a "yard stick". :-)
...lew...

J Tiers
03-07-2015, 10:41 AM
Calipers are also called "guessing sticks" and really should not be used for anything needing better than 0.005" tolerance. Also I have found that the outside measurement may be OK, but inside measurement can be off by at least 0.005" due to dull and inaccurate grinding of the points.



TWO commonly believed myths for the price of ONE.....

The "guessing stick" comes in many types. Some deserve the name, others not. One type is 0.2" or 5mm per turn, and that probably isn't good to less than 3 or 5 thou just on the basis of ability to read it decently.

Others have 0.1" per turn, and those are easily read to a much better visual resolution. And, so far, when I check mine against gage blocks, I find that they read correctly within a thou or so. (no, don't ask about calibration of the gage blocks unless you really want to look ignorant). So I have no problem reading them to a thou, as long as I am OK with a thou or so error around that reading.

There are plenty of micrometers that read to a thou, and I would not advise trying to interpolate accurately on them either.... they are good to +- a thou and that's about it.

Errors are more often related to the way calipers are used than their actual accuracy.... cram them against the work with the thumbwheel, and you get what you deserve....

As for the internal jaws, that's a different issue.

If you look closely at the jaws, you find that they have small flats on them. That makes sense, because a sharp edge would quickly wear down. A flat has enough area that if you don't habitually measure old-time grindstone bores*, they will last a long time. The width of those flats varies with different brands, and sometimes with different units in one brand.

So, when you measure the ID of a hole, the flat actually spans a chord instead of measuring the actual ID. The effect is much worse in a small hole than a big one. Therefore your measurement will always be short of the true ID. If you cared, you could actually figure out the correction factor for common sizes.

I suppose in cheap hardware store calipers the points could be "dull and inaccurate", but even on the cheaper chinese ones I have obtained at tag sales as "lend-out" calipers, the finish was as fine on the ID as on the OD jaws.

I would suggest that the problem is NOT what you think.

* the ones without the lead or plastic bushing in the bore.

loose nut
03-07-2015, 10:51 AM
The "Shed" ("Cave"?) lounge:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Caveupgrade1.jpg

My wife and I in our "dotage" (aka "old age"):

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Super-guys1.jpg

Can you clarify the pics Tiffie, you and the wife , top or bottom picture. ;):D:rolleyes:

Come on, didn't anybody watch the second video at the 3:55 min. point. I expected some kind of reaction.

Rosco-P
03-07-2015, 11:49 AM
Come on, didn't anybody watch the second video at the 3:55 min. point. I expected some kind of reaction.

Don't own any cheapo calipers digital or otherwise. Went back and watched the video in the link. Seems the guy let the punishment fit the crime. He was wearing kind of heavy gloves while running the lathe though. Not too smart...

peekaboobus
03-07-2015, 11:43 PM
What a waste of a working caliper. Maybe he did it for the camera, or anger issues, but either way its a waste.

DATo
03-08-2015, 06:54 AM
I used to work with a Hungarian defector many years ago (Cold War Era) and the only tool he used was a Craftsman dial caliper which he carried in the back pocket of his pants. I was just a young wipper-snapper at that time but I attempted to tell this crusty machinist veteran that micrometers were more accurate and that calipers were just approximation instruments. He didn't say anything but about a half hour later he asked me to press a 4" sleeve he had been turning to fit a bore in the arbor press because ... "his shoulder had been giving him some trouble". I took the thing over to the press and got it started on the ~ .050 lead he had turned on the very end and proceeded to press it in ... went in like it was lubed with grease ... perfect fit. He thanked me and had the decency not to lecture me though mysteriously enough his "shoulder problem" was cured - he pressed in the next one himself.

Though I still maintain, and agree with those who say that a caliper is an approximation tool, point I am trying to make is that the tool does not make the machinist, but rather the other way around. I've worked with "machinists" who couldn't have done what Tibor did with the finest micrometer in Christendom.

loose nut
03-08-2015, 10:30 AM
Mityutoyo Digimatics will hold 0.001" accuracy (if used right), so if you consider that an approximation tool you are right. If you want to go to half thous. then use something else.

A.K. Boomer
03-08-2015, 11:55 AM
To all the "Real Machinist" using Chi-com calipers I wish to extend my apologies and sympathies in advance.

More importantly I would like to know which planet we are discussing being on .BTW. My experience with "Happy-Fart" $10 calipers were similar to those presented in the video and even worse by the way.

For 1. the "Inside / Outside" measurements differed by .006" right out of the box. They never would "Zero - Out" to be the same unless you ground them to be the same.

2nd. First time they were dropped - they were DONE ! The upper and lower beam were now longer square to each other and it developed a nasty burr on the rack.

3rd and most importantly - they "Felt Spongy" / soft and never definitive when closed upon the object being measured. Actually they would differ 4 - 8 thou depending "HOW" you closed them.

If I have to use Happy Fart calipers to be a REAL Machinist - well then you can count me out. I'm more of the kind that gets the correct measurement then works to achieve that level of accuracy as opposed to "Well I live in a world of .010" Fudge Factor.

And
Tony Ennis - BTW you forgot the Laughing Icon in your post - I almost shot milk out my nose when I read "I'm pretty sure that 'Aerospace' means the calipers were made from titanium billet"




Oh boy here we go again with the high horse comparisons ---- first off don't knock even the happy farts cuz for one they are about the price of a Subway Sandwich and + or - .006" will put a stanley tape measure to shame...
just a little perspective for you.

secondly Don't knock the "real machinist" using "real Chi-com" calipers when there's in depth tests results on the I-gauging that actually spank the Mitu's and do it at about 1/3rd the price,,, that's right - can you say a _ _ _ _ and his money are soon parted lol again - just a little perspective for you --- now climb down off of that Shetland and try to look back up at those intimidating Clydesdale's...

Geeze - get a clue...

peekaboobus
03-08-2015, 08:13 PM
I used to work with a Hungarian defector many years ago (Cold War Era) and the only tool he used was a Craftsman dial caliper which he carried in the back pocket of his pants. I was just a young wipper-snapper at that time but I attempted to tell this crusty machinist veteran that micrometers were more accurate and that calipers were just approximation instruments. He didn't say anything but about a half hour later he asked me to press a 4" sleeve he had been turning to fit a bore in the arbor press because ... "his shoulder had been giving him some trouble". I took the thing over to the press and got it started on the ~ .050 lead he had turned on the very end and proceeded to press it in ... went in like it was lubed with grease ... perfect fit. He thanked me and had the decency not to lecture me though mysteriously enough his "shoulder problem" was cured - he pressed in the next one himself.

Though I still maintain, and agree with those who say that a caliper is an approximation tool, point I am trying to make is that the tool does not make the machinist, but rather the other way around. I've worked with "machinists" who couldn't have done what Tibor did with the finest micrometer in Christendom.

Well if he was using the same caliper to measure the hole and the shaft, then of course you can make a good fit so long as the same method and pressure was applied during the measurement. To make a fit you're not interested in accuracy of the measurement. Just good enough precision and repeatability. As long as he can reliably tell then it would still fit. But if he was asked to measure exactly high big, thats something else.

The difference between a caliper and a micrometer is the pressure applied. People often over apply the pressure when measuring, deforming the workpiece. A micrometer limits that with a torque slipping thing. But if youre good you can get away with a caliper. Why not?

darryl
03-08-2015, 08:41 PM
My cheapo dial calipers will hold a half-thou all day long- just put some half thou shim stock in there and clamp it up. Stays in place all day :) But what do you expect- I'm pretty sure it's made from aircraft grade billet :)

I did sort of appreciate the adjustment procedure shown in the video. It was quite definitive and there was no confusion as to whether the adjustment altered things. I suppose if I buy a similar measuring device from Horrifik Freak I could perhaps use that technique. But lately I've taken to using a nut run along some threaded rod to measure dimensions. Takes a bit of interpolating, and is pretty hard to get an ID measurement, but it does seem that it would compare to these cheap offerings from these prestigious tool supply companies.

While we're on the subject of adjusting measuring devices, could someone tell me how to set the zero on my Estwing framing hammer?

Rosco-P
03-08-2015, 09:25 PM
While we're on the subject of adjusting measuring devices, could someone tell me how to set the zero on my Estwing framing hammer?

Zero set is not user accessible. The Estwing hammer must be sent back to the factory Q/A lab. for recalibration. In contrast, quality in Hart framers has fallen so drastically, that hammers failing to zero at the start of the workday are now routinely discarded.

A.K. Boomer
03-08-2015, 10:16 PM
I have to laugh at what the Chinese name stuff, SparkFun is really not something you want on any kind of an electronics component/tool - even battery operated - Spark not Fun nor good... Spark very bad - actually unhappy...

but it's not just the Chinese - Iv got a Poulan chain saw called a "wild thing" again not good name for a chain saw unless your name happens to be Jason or something ------ chainsaws need to be used "kinda" carefully --- wild thing just conjures up images of "Jeb" locking the throttle on full and then telling his kin-folk "hey lookie here"

CarlByrns
03-08-2015, 10:45 PM
The problem with the first video is the guy confuses price with quality. While I'm sure that the name brands (Starrett, Mitutoyo, ect) at +$150 are better than the $10-20 dollar Horrible Freight ones, I doubt they're better by a factor of ten.

I have a pair of the older HF calipers for general work and a Kanon caliper that never goes near chips or dirt.

superUnknown
03-08-2015, 10:47 PM
Why offshore calipers chew through batteries:
http://youtu.be/E8oopG2GpF0

CarlByrns
03-08-2015, 10:49 PM
I have to laugh at what the Chinese name stuff, SparkFun is really not something you want on any kind of an electronics component/tool - even battery operated - Spark not Fun nor good... Spark very bad - actually unhappy...

Sparkomatic car audio components.

Willy
03-08-2015, 11:15 PM
but it's not just the Chinese - Iv got a Poulan chain saw..............

Anything with a recoil starter and a name like Pullin' doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in having a productive day.:D

boslab
03-09-2015, 06:01 AM
If you buy any measuring tool, irrespective of origin, it would seem that it would be worth testing it against a series of known length, depth and aperture standards, aka slip guage's.
It didn't matter if it was starret, M&W, mitutoyo or whoever, they needed calibration, it's no good making wild assertions without some factual data to support the instrument, I've returned a couple of tools to big companies because of inaccuracies, if a cheap tool is accurate and repeatable just because it says happy measure on the side doesn't mean it's crap.
I admit that there are less bad ones with big names but they are there.
Rack and wheel dial calipers cost a fortune in the machine shop, so much that they were banned, they are prone to jump a tooth if swarf gets in them.
I have a few cheap ones, they are ok for what I need.
My old instructor could read a steel rule to amazing accuracy by splitting the divisions with a magnifying glass.
If it does the job I suppose, the thing to note the cheaper brands from Asia are getting better and better, the advantage that Japan had is disappearing fast.
Mark

J Tiers
03-09-2015, 08:09 AM
[QUOTE=boslab;971931
Rack and wheel dial calipers cost a fortune in the machine shop, so much that they were banned, they are prone to jump a tooth if swarf gets in them.
I have a few cheap ones, they are ok for what I need.
My old instructor could read a steel rule to amazing accuracy by splitting the divisions with a magnifying glass.
[/QUOTE]

Your old instructor was misinformed.......

He could read the divisions, but he had NO CLUE what the distance was..... I have steel rules that do not agree with each other. That seems to be almost a "rule". ABSLOUTELY USELESS to read with a magnifying glass when the error between two of them is large enough to see with the unaided eye. And I don't mean "Happy Fart" steel rules, either.

As for the dial calipers, obviously nobody had ever heard of closing the jaws and checking zero. That instantly checks for a skipped tooth, and is so simple to do that it's a wonder nobody ever does it.

Probably they had never heard of not setting the measuring tool down in the swarf and coolant either... That keeps it clean, and avoids most of those problems. Buying decent tools helps too, some are guarded better. I've been using calipers for measuring for over 30 years, and I have yet to ever see a case of a skipped tooth for ANY cause.

A.K. Boomer
03-09-2015, 09:57 AM
Sparkomatic car audio components.

must be coming from their fireworks heritage? just label it in relation to something going "super nova" and people will buy it... ?
really does not matter what it is, could be a digital rectal thermometer or even a pacemaker - just create a level of excitement associated with it and people will buy it... ? :confused:

A.K. Boomer
03-09-2015, 10:04 AM
Anything with a recoil starter and a name like Pullin' doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in having a productive day.:D

I know Willy that's the other thing about the name of that saw, but bought it for 25 bucks and changed the rotten fuel out for new quality ethanol mix:rolleyes: and the dang thing got me through the winter, usually takes two pulls to start - one with the choke on and then one totally off - flipped the bar the other day and gave her another sharpen and she's good to go (till I hit another rock lodged in some bark)

loose nut
03-09-2015, 12:39 PM
I have steel rules that do not agree with each other. .

And try getting them adjusted.:cool:

Mark Rand
03-09-2015, 06:16 PM
And try getting them adjusted.:cool:

Simple, put them through a set of rolls to lengthen them or use a shrinking hammer to shorten them. Standard equipment in any quality calibration lab. :p

atty
03-09-2015, 06:25 PM
Iv got a Poulan chain saw called a "wild thing" again not good name for a chain saw unless your name happens to be Jason or something ------ chainsaws need to be used "kinda" carefully --- wild thing just conjures up images of "Jeb" locking the throttle on full and then telling his kin-folk "hey lookie here"

I'm glad to see somebody else has one of those "Wild Things". I was beginning to think I was on Candid Camera with mine.

boslab
03-09-2015, 07:25 PM
Your old instructor was misinformed.......

He could read the divisions, but he had NO CLUE what the distance was..... I have steel rules that do not agree with each other. That seems to be almost a "rule". ABSLOUTELY USELESS to read with a magnifying glass when the error between two of them is large enough to see with the unaided eye. And I don't mean "Happy Fart" steel rules, either.

As for the dial calipers, obviously nobody had ever heard of closing the jaws and checking zero. That instantly checks for a skipped tooth, and is so simple to do that it's a wonder nobody ever does it.

Probably they had never heard of not setting the measuring tool down in the swarf and coolant either... That keeps it clean, and avoids most of those problems. Buying decent tools helps too, some are guarded better. I've been using calipers for measuring for over 30 years, and I have yet to ever see a case of a skipped tooth for ANY cause.
The rule reading was in a classroom, the instructor measured the dimension then we confirmed what it actually was with a micrometer, it was a demonstration so I think he did in fact have every idea what he was measuring, I would not recommend doing it as a production method, but it did prove that someone who is skilled in using a rule can measure accurately with a rule, after all that's what it's for.
The track vernier will happily skip if fine swarf gets in there, I have seen it for myself, in this instance it was a fine brass needle type swarf, however misreading a standard vernier can also bite you on the ass as it were, making mistakes is an inherent fault with us humans, it isn't time related, you can be doing the same thing for forty years or forty minutes and still drop a bollock as it were, that's why we had machinists, and inspectors to check the machinists, gauge rooms to check the instruments used by both the machinists and the inspectors, metrologists to check the gauges that were used to check the gauges used to check the instruments, the chain went on and on but if a bit of machineing is worth millions it's what you have to do I'm afraid, it is costly I know and has little bearing on a home shop scenario where you would be lucky to find a set of slip guage's to check the instruments, but a worthwhile investment if you are doing any small scale manufacturing, even a handful of assorted loose slips can give quite a range of known sizes to test your measuring kit.
Regards
Mark

J Tiers
03-09-2015, 07:41 PM
If done as a "stunt", OK.... Not something one would want to do regularly, simply because it is believing the accuracy of a coarse measuring device to be far better than it really may be. Some may be very accurate, others will not be, and that may be out of the same lot from same maker.

Each measuring device is made to a tolerance. The tolerance SHOULD be such that the smallest marked divisions on the device are accurately located to measure correctly within 0.1 to 0.25 of a marked division. That generally will allow good interpolation to a half division, which is about as far as is really justified.

I was serious when I said I have never had a dial caliper skip. AND when I said that a zero check fixes the issue that may result if one DOES skip.

Zero before use, check zero afterwards. If the two do not agree, repeat the measurements that were taken between those two.

boslab
03-09-2015, 08:33 PM
Indeed I agree, any measuring instrument should be zeroed before use, and ideally after thus as you correctly assert removing cumulative error, particularly true of digital as it is easy to reset the thing to any point, a flaw I have found a couple of times to my own misery.
Thanks
Mark

gellfex
03-11-2015, 12:57 PM
I have to laugh at what the Chinese name stuff, SparkFun is really not something you want on any kind of an electronics component/tool - even battery operated - Spark not Fun nor good... Spark very bad - actually unhappy...

but it's not just the Chinese - Iv got a Poulan chain saw called a "wild thing" again not good name for a chain saw unless your name happens to be Jason or something ------ chainsaws need to be used "kinda" carefully --- wild thing just conjures up images of "Jeb" locking the throttle on full and then telling his kin-folk "hey lookie here"

I once used an electrician whose company was "Arc & Spark Electric". I told him that was like "Crash and Burn Airlines".

thaiguzzi
03-11-2015, 11:36 PM
I have to laugh at what the Chinese name stuff, SparkFun is really not something you want on any kind of an electronics component/tool - even battery operated - Spark not Fun nor good... Spark very bad - actually unhappy...

but it's not just the Chinese - Iv got a Poulan chain saw called a "wild thing" again not good name for a chain saw unless your name happens to be Jason or something ------ chainsaws need to be used "kinda" carefully --- wild thing just conjures up images of "Jeb" locking the throttle on full and then telling his kin-folk "hey lookie here"

LOL.
this conjures up images of "and squeal like a pig". Duelling banjos etc.

JoeFin
03-13-2015, 08:27 AM
Oh boy here we go again with the high horse comparisons ---- first off don't knock even the happy farts cuz for one they are about the price of a Subway Sandwich and + or - .006" will put a stanley tape measure to shame...
just a little perspective for you.

secondly Don't knock the "real machinist" using "real Chi-com" calipers when there's in depth tests results on the I-gauging that actually spank the Mitu's and do it at about 1/3rd the price,,, that's right - can you say a _ _ _ _ and his money are soon parted lol again - just a little perspective for you --- now climb down off of that Shetland and try to look back up at those intimidating Clydesdale's...

Geeze - get a clue...



"Garbage in - Garbage out"

No High Horse here - just a dose of reality for you.

If the sum total of your work is the accuracy of "Happy Fart Calipers" then the "Scrap Man must love coming by your shop"


http://www.seniorark.com/Humor/Redneck%20Things/Redneck%20Images/redneck%20family%20car.gif



Cheers

kendall
03-13-2015, 12:56 PM
While we're on the subject of adjusting measuring devices, could someone tell me how to set the zero on my Estwing framing hammer?

If you have a singing Estwing hammer, they have automatic inertia operated zero reset. If you get a leather grip that sings, they have automatic thumb detectors as well.

loose nut
03-13-2015, 05:36 PM
It doesn't really matter as long as the targeting computer is functioning properly.

Rich Carlstedt
03-13-2015, 07:30 PM
If you have a singing Estwing hammer, they have automatic inertia operated zero reset. If you get a leather grip that sings, they have automatic thumb detectors as well.

The "B" models have a sonic reset !
At 100 decibels they stop molecular vibrations and all forward motion, so Z axis becomes zero !

A.K. Boomer
03-13-2015, 10:59 PM
No High Horse here - just a dose of reality for you.



Ohh I see - so it's all about reality? well wish someone would have told me that --- here you go;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1yqZx_FNbSs

--- try measuring over 2,000 measurements from multiple places on multiple different calipers and then get back to me... Fact - from the guy who ran all the testing - the 30 dollar I-gaging actually spanked the 120 dollar mitutoyo's ,,,

and they give you two more inches of caliper to use... Geeze - in Mitu terms that's 30 bucks an inferior inch - up against I-gagings more accurate 5 bucks an inch ---- wow - no comparison Huh? -- see how that works?


I'll say it again --- your spending more money for an inferior product lol and
A _ _ _ _ and his money are soon parted...



"To all the "Real Machinist" using Chi-com calipers I wish to extend my apologies and sympathies in advance."


yeah ahh ok there Joe,,, If your feeling sorry for the people who are feeling sorry for you then I guess I get your point...

scrap man a comith alright :p


http://www.seniorark.com/Humor/Redneck%20Things/Redneck%20Images/redneck%20family%20car.gif

darryl
03-13-2015, 11:01 PM
I bought my own Estwing, but Dad had one as well. It had the thumb detector. It must have had gps as well as it went straight to my uncles thumb one day. Not sure what you call what he started doing, but it sure wasn't singing :(

PStechPaul
03-14-2015, 12:11 AM
Yeah, he was singing this song:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYgOlqinH7A

loose nut
03-14-2015, 11:19 AM
http://www.seniorark.com/Humor/Redneck%20Things/Redneck%20Images/redneck%20family%20car.gif





Is that the Redneck mobile that Redneck Man drives. What happened to his cape and outside underwear.

mattthemuppet
03-14-2015, 11:19 AM
Hey, I live in walla walla!! Anybody live in bing bang?

A.K. Boomer
03-14-2015, 11:25 AM
Is that the Redneck mobile that Redneck Man drives. What happened to his cape and outside underwear.

Im thinking their not going to get too far anyways... just look at the puddle of oil that collected in the time it took to stop and take the picture :p

JoeFin
03-14-2015, 11:32 AM
Ohh I see - so it's all about reality? well wish someone would have told me that --- here you go;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1yqZx_FNbSs

--- try measuring over 2,000 measurements from multiple places on multiple different calipers and then get back to me... Fact - from the guy who ran all the testing - the 30 dollar I-gaging actually spanked the 120 dollar mitutoyo's ,,,

and they give you two more inches of caliper to use... Geeze - in Mitu terms that's 30 bucks an inferior inch - up against I-gagings more accurate 5 bucks an inch ---- wow - no comparison Huh? -- see how that works?


I'll say it again --- your spending more money for an inferior product lol and
A _ _ _ _ and his money are soon parted...



"To all the "Real Machinist" using Chi-com calipers I wish to extend my apologies and sympathies in advance."


yeah ahh ok there Joe,,, If your feeling sorry for the people who are feeling sorry for you then I guess I get your point...

scrap man a comith alright :p




WOW Oh WOW "Saints be Hallelulla" My eyes have seen the light Oh Great One

I mean really - any old Idiot Yahoo pimping cheap crap on Eboner can put out a YouTube video spewing stupidity from the mountain tops - but YOU Dear Sir have added a link to THE ONE - "Truly My eyes have seen the Glory" - it must be divine intervention A.K. Boomer The very reason you were put here on this earth. And he even posted a link to the ones he was selling on Amazon - How Clever !!

I mean wow - the video was just so clever - he didn't even need no NIST certified gages or nothing.

It was JUST AWESOME - he didn't try to take advantage of any - shall we say - "Low Informational" or Intellectually Lazy Viewers or nothing like that - It was so inspiring - REALLY !

Just think A.K. Boomer - since I don't currently have a set of those "Just Awesome" Happy Fart Calipers in my shop - it just leaves more pairs for you - Oh Great One - I mean really - its like you hit the Jack Pot or some thing


Oh BTW -


I got this picture of your friends leaving your shop



http://carhumor.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/car-humor-funny-joke-road-street-drive-driver-garbage-truck-I-Love-A-Good-Dump.jpg

Rosco-P
03-14-2015, 12:01 PM
Ohh I see - so it's all about reality? well wish someone would have told me that --- here you go;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1yqZx_FNbSs

Anyone can post anything on YouBoob. Doesn't make it gospel anymore than putting up a page on Tiffiepedia.

A.K. Boomer
03-14-2015, 12:22 PM
Anyone can post anything on YouBoob. Doesn't make it gospel anymore than putting up a page on Tiffiepedia.

Hey the fact is - is it's better than listening to Ole Joe delving out his sympathy's to people who bought something at 1/4 the price that he had to pay and have 2 more inches of caliper than him to start with lol

yeah guess i can see someone getting a little defensive :p

that becomes quite obvious just in itself,,,

the fact is - is whether people like to here it or not there are some damn good Chinese products out there - I happen to know - I own several of them and they have not only done what they were designed to do - they have done it for over a decade with lots of abuse thrown in...

that just is what it is folks --- some people are going to have to come to grips and deal with that...

the whole point is to get off the "holier than thou" kick,,,,,, just not going to fly on my watch - which incidentally is a Timex Iron Man - made in china that's going on about its fourth band and 12 years now... have a nice day :)

JoeFin
03-14-2015, 01:32 PM
Hey the fact is - is it's better than listening to Ole Joe delving out his sympathy's to people who bought something at 1/4 the price that he had to pay and have 2 more inches of caliper than him to start with lol

yeah guess i can see someone getting a little defensive :p)


Actually A.K. - I'm laughing my A$$ off - at you

I would have thought most folk could have gathered that from my previous response - but alas, I expected too much

Truth of the matter - I ONLY agreed with the original video posted in the thread. And if you had been even slightest bit observant you possibly could have gathered from my pearls of wisdom I was (as in past tense) in fact the dubious owner of a pair of "Happy Fart Calipers". Now most folks (present company excluded) could have also possibly surmised since the author of the video presented his handy link to the calipers he is "Pimping" he just might have had dog in this fight or at least to some degree financial gain to be realized should unsuspecting or in other cases "Intellectually Lazy Individuals" buy the into the cheap junk he is pimping on Amazon.

But let me try to speak to you in terms you might understand

Chi-Com calipers are like "Fat Girls at Closing time" - sure we all do it - just that most of us don't go bragging all across the internet about it


http://visboo.com/img/03022010/49481.jpg

A.K. Boomer
03-14-2015, 02:08 PM
ouugh boy that brings back memories --- and not very good ones either,,,


But as far as the calipers go --- 18 bucks is something to brag about when you have used them to build tens of thousands of precision keys and had to hold + or - .0005" whilst doing it --- and do it for many years with the same ones,

with only one "gib adjustment" during the entire duration,,, and one key has to be measured several times over in multiple spots,,,

and all cleared inspection... and that is the happy fart ones - not even the precision I-gaging ones that are only 12 bucks more that spanked the Mitu's lol BTW - I have no problem believing that...

yeah my machinist bud rolled his eyes too, until he found out I actually knew my el-cheapo deluxo's pretty damn good lol

then after the years of flawless track records kept rolling in there was never a mention...

Im laughing at you Joe - im just a mechanic and it seems I actually know more about certain machining practices better than you do, at least in the measuring department --- those calipers have long since been retired and are just scribers now, but Believe me I knew them allot better than i think you know your Mitu's --- can tell you that just because you do not seem to have a clue as to how the real world works that way just by your assumptions ... but again ---have a nice day :)

JoeFin
03-14-2015, 02:52 PM
yeah my machinist bud rolled his eyes too, until he found out I actually knew my el-cheapo deluxo's pretty damn good lol



On serious note ...


As DATo elaborated so well in his post - yes a cheapo pair of calipers CAN be learned and made to perform well in the hands of a skilled mechanic.

The question being do you have time to learn them, or wish to continually be taking the time and care necessary to use them, or wish to risk a possible lapse of memory and screw up an afternoons work in the final op of a complex part

In my case, machining time is a luxury - so taking the time to learn the quirks and deficiencies of inferior calipers simply doesn't appeal to me.


Im laughing at you Joe - im just a mechanic and it seems I actually know more about certain machining practices better than you do, at least in the measuring department --- those calipers have long since been retired and are just scribers now, but Believe me I knew them allot better than i think you know your Mitu's --- can tell you that just because you do not seem to have a clue as to how the real world works that way just by your assumptions ... but again ---have a nice day :)


But let me share with you one last dose of reality - And yes - at work some folks refer to me as a mechanic too

All be it a fairly more complex beast then even your most sophisticated automobile automation system. And cost wise the systems I am entrusted to ensure operate properly cost in the range of $Billions producing a product daily ranging in the $Millions. Because of all this my machining time becomes even more precious because my skills are so in demand - Even my replies to you in this thread were interrupted last night because I was summoned into work on an urgent need. All of which pays me handsomely enough to where I can purchase a pair of Mity calipers hourly from the proceeds of my endeavors. - and I'm just a mechanic

Like yourself - problem solving an overcoming obstacles is pure enjoyment - its just that I choose different obstacles to overcome

Be honest - you liked the pictures - didn't you

A.K. Boomer
03-14-2015, 04:01 PM
agreed part of problem solving is having calipers that function properly in every single way so as you don't have one more added thing to worry about right?

so you would expect to have an auto shut off feature on the 120 dollar Mitu's in comparison to the auto shut off on the 30 dollar I-gaging's --- you know - so you don't open the box one day on your ever so important time consumed life only to find that the only battery left was left on in your perfectly well thought out calipers that you either forgot to turn off or came on when jossled in it's box putting it away, ooooops - nuther trip to the store to pick up more power sources ...

damn - now you could have bought not only the extra 3 superior I-gages with the money saved off the start - you could have gotten 2 more with just the time it took to get the extra battery's for the Mitu... make that 2 1/2 more with the money saved on batterys,,,

Geeze im thinking if Mitu's are all that great they would at least turn themselves off for 120 bucks don't you?


Do not like the pic cuz although lots of cloths are being worn I have a pretty good idea what's going on under there... ( besides the "lots of baby powder") and by having to see her that way I mean it - would "have" too, never something one plans, but yes has happened a time or two...

one was "playing" with a loli-pop around closing time,,, i make no excuses, im only human...

JoeFin
03-14-2015, 04:43 PM
Do not like the pic cuz although lots of cloths are being worn I have a pretty good idea what's going on under there... ( besides the "lots of baby powder") and by having to see her that way I mean it - would "have" too, never something one plans, but yes has happened a time or two...

one was "playing" with a loli-pop around closing time,,, i make no excuses, im only human...


You really need to add a laughing icon at the top of your post - I almost blew kool-aid out my nose at that one


For a long time I wouldn't go the digital route

Perhaps its an indication of my age but I was just having this conversation with my son attending college. We were discussing use of multimeters, Digital vs: Analog and I had to remind him of the Simpson 270 I gave him. When it comes to certain situations witnessing the needle fluxuate gives more information then the digital display ever could. Additionally the Simpson 270 can be fully calibrated "Without" proprietary software as all the new digital eguipment is today.

I also felt witnessing the needle of a caliper close around a part gave certain information - was I closing squarely to the part, applying too much pressure, rack in good health, ect, ect ...

But besides that I would left short relying on the I-gauges as I some times have to resort to my 12" and 24" digital calipers

A.K. Boomer
03-14-2015, 05:13 PM
I can see that with the dial calipers as that's how I started out and that's a good description of paying attention to detail,

But John Stevens has a name for people like me, and all it takes is one time on the floor, there simply of no use when broken... and that's how both ended their very short lives...
I have no idea how my dial indicators survived going for a spindle ride and then slamming into the wall after getting close to 1500 rpms and "fanning out" to a good 9" radius before letting go --- but they did - cheap 12 dollar Chinese units that are still "silky smooth" as the day I bought them, (* !)
that im sure if were an interapid mounted on a real indicol would have fanned out to about a foot before letting go and totally destroyed itself,,,
cheap tools are good insurance for some people... esp. cheap ones that do a pretty dang good job... nuf said - but there's also allot of companies surviving just off of a name - and ones who's name now belongs to a different country of origin, not going to mention any names though...

jj.cameron
03-19-2015, 07:19 AM
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/19/e2eb1f70d42e1bc1833eb340a6f998d8.jpg

Any idea on this worth?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jep24601
03-19-2015, 04:52 PM
$5.00

dmartin
03-20-2015, 11:16 PM
I have a 6" dial calipers that I bought from Harbor Freight about 10 years ago and it is very smooth and very accurate. I recently bought a 12" "import" from ENCO that also came with a free 6" calipers. I didn't have a 12" calipers and figured that since I would rarely use it I would get the cheap import and I could use the extra 6" anyway. I finally got around to using the calipers after having them for about 2 months and could not believe how terrible they were. Neither were accurate and the jaws were not parallel and very loose. I called ENCO and was told that they have a 30 day return policy but I explained that I just got around to using them and they are so bad that they are actually useless. She was very nice and said OK return them and they would replace them. I explained that I was expecting the same quality of the HF one that I got 10 years ago but as they were so bad I really didn't want a replacement set. She suggested that I get a different brand and they would credit me for the set that I returned. I then bought a 6" dial Mititoyo that arrived yesterday and I love it. Today I checked it and the 10 year old Harbor freight one on several different size drill bits and mic standards and found them both to be almost identical. Don't get me wrong I am glad that I got the Mititoyo and it works very well, I also double checked the readings with my good Starrett 0 -1 mic and both calipers were as good as the mic. I didn't check depth or ID but on OD they were both right on. I'm thinking that there are some good china made imports and maybe at times the HF ones may be better than other times, but probably the Mititoyo are always great no mater where or when you get them. Unless you get them on Ebay and get a fake one. By the way I also checked a cheap Grizzly 4" dial that I keep by the lathe for rough measurements and as expected it was about 3 thou off at many of the points I checked. Now I still need to get a decent 12" dial calipers.