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View Full Version : 16" Swing Lathe - Dorian CXA or CA Dorian QCTP? Any G0509G owners?



coolidge
03-06-2015, 09:11 PM
I'm in the market for a larger lathe, the Grizzly G0509G is in the lead at the moment. I'm pricing QCTP's and thinking about going with the Dorian but both the CXA and CA are listed as fitting 16 inch swing lathes. I'd appreciate any suggestions and if there are any G0509G owners on the forum can you tell me what the width of the compound is? Thanks!

SVS
03-07-2015, 01:11 AM
The most important number is center height above the compound. Swing is only part of the answer.

JCHannum
03-07-2015, 08:08 AM
That lathe comes with a piston type QCTP. If you prefer the wedge type, I would recommend getting the comparable size so you can, at least, use the supplied toolholders. You can probably check with Grizzly to find what the toolpost is, but I wouls suspect it is CXA.

PixMan
03-07-2015, 08:18 AM
The most important number is center height above the compound. Swing is only part of the answer.

This is correct.

I have a Victor 1640 lathe and it came to me (used) with the larger CA/400 size Dorian toolpost. With the Dorian holders I have, the toolholder blocks drop to just about .050"-.060" off the top of the compound to get 1" square shank carbide insert tools on center. And I prefer those holders to 3/4" because they are so much more rigid.

When I bought some more economical import toolholder blocks from Jeff @ Tools4Cheap (http://www.tools4cheap.net), I found they were thicker than Dorian holders under the slot for the square shank tools so I had to mill 3mm off the bottoms. No issues for me because I use a good carbide insert face mill, but they are fairly hard.

I was just looking at that lathe on Grizzly's website. Reading the description, this disturbed me:

"a tailstock that was precisely tuned at the factory with a lock that could accommodate a torque wrench (the tailstock center can be torqued down to bring it to exact center with the spindle center),"

What?? You mean the tailstock isn't otherwise on center with the spindle? OMG

EddyCurr
03-07-2015, 09:04 AM
... but both the CXA and CA are listed as fitting 16 inch swing lathes. ...
I have a CXA Dorian Super QCTP on a 14" lathe (equivalent to Jet's GH-1440W-1)

Dorian's catalog below provides dimensions for their various tool posts with which
you can determine center height.

http://www.doriantool.com/wp-content/uploads/dorian_tool_lathe_accessories_catalog.pdf

FWIW, Page 34 of 100 (printed p32) indicates the SDN35CXA tool post is predicted
to be suitable for 14-17" lathes. The SDN40CA is predicted to fit 16-20" lathes.

There can be exceptions. Check the dimensions.

.

tmarks11
03-07-2015, 09:35 AM
The manual on page 39 shows the tool holders that fit the QCTP, and states they are all 300 series (Grizzly's equivalent to CXA) size.

That doesn't really answer your question, about whether you could also fit a CA QCTP on it.

Do you want to use 1" tools (CA), or 3/4" (CXA)?

lakeside53
03-07-2015, 11:17 AM
I have a Dorian CXA on a 14 x40 lathe. No issues at all and I certainly wouldn't want to downsize to BXA, or go "up" to the CA. CA is pretty bulky.

bborr01
03-07-2015, 12:27 PM
I have an 18X40 lathe that had a Dorian D40ca tool post on it when I bought it. The CA is a little bulky as lakeside53 mentioned but with bulkiness comes rigidity. It takes 1" tool bits and I have also bought an import holder for it that works fine at about 1/8 Dorians retail price.

Brian

coolidge
03-07-2015, 01:42 PM
Guys thanks for the input. I had emailed Grizzly for dimensions of the compound and compound to center height but no response. So approaching this from a different angle, specs on the Dorian CA are clear you can't use 3/4 inch tooling and I guess I would like that option so I'm going to go with the Dorian CXA which accepts both 3/4 and 1 inch tooling. For this particular lathe 1 1/4 inch tooling may have been overkill anyway, while the 1 1/4 inch tooling is more rigid if the rest of the lathe isn't rigid enough to benefit from that its not really worth the expense right.

In other news I have expanded my search to include the 16x40 Taiwan lathes, on average about $5k more but if I'm going to drop $8k on a G0509G...maybe another $5k to step up in quality, get variable spindle speeds, etc. might not be a bad idea.

coolidge
03-07-2015, 01:51 PM
I was just looking at that lathe on Grizzly's website. Reading the description, this disturbed me:

"a tailstock that was precisely tuned at the factory with a lock that could accommodate a torque wrench (the tailstock center can be torqued down to bring it to exact center with the spindle center),"

What?? You mean the tailstock isn't otherwise on center with the spindle? OMG

The advertised tolerance for the difference between headstock and tailstock centerline height is .0015 yet guys turning rifle barrels between centers are looking to hit what .0000 to .0003 range. Adjusting the tailstock with a torque wrench to hit that with repeatability I think is the idea there.

PixMan
03-07-2015, 02:01 PM
The advertised tolerance for the difference between headstock and tailstock centerline height is .0015 yet guys turning rifle barrels between centers are looking to hit what .0000 to .0003 range. Adjusting the tailstock with a torque wrench to hit that with repeatability I think is the idea there.

That the center height changes by having it torqued to a specific setting just tells me that it's a POS lathe. Every lathe's tailstock should be on center....ALWAYS. The fact that they tell you it changes has me convinced it's a machinery oriented "Flexible Flyer."

lakeside53
03-07-2015, 02:17 PM
I have an 18X40 lathe that had a Dorian D40ca tool post on it when I bought it. The CA is a little bulky as lakeside53 mentioned but with bulkiness comes rigidity. It takes 1" tool bits and I have also bought an import holder for it that works fine at about 1/8 Dorians retail price.

Brian


If I had a 18x40 I'd go for a CA also :)

lakeside53
03-07-2015, 02:22 PM
Guys thanks for the input. I had emailed Grizzly for dimensions of the compound and compound to center height but no response. So approaching this from a different angle, specs on the Dorian CA are clear you can't use 3/4 inch tooling and I guess I would like that option so I'm going to go with the Dorian CXA which accepts both 3/4 and 1 inch tooling. For this particular lathe 1 1/4 inch tooling may have been overkill anyway, while the 1 1/4 inch tooling is more rigid if the rest of the lathe isn't rigid enough to benefit from that its not really worth the expense right.

In other news I have expanded my search to include the 16x40 Taiwan lathes, on average about $5k more but if I'm going to drop $8k on a G0509G...maybe another $5k to step up in quality, get variable spindle speeds, etc. might not be a bad idea.

Are you sure about that standard CXA holder will take 1 inch? none of mine 20 or so will... 3/4 is your max. And 3/4 works fine on a 14x40.

BTW, if you have 1 inch or 1 1/4 shanks, just mill them down to 3/4 or whatever.

coolidge
03-07-2015, 04:42 PM
Well that's what the Dorian catalog says, both D1 and D2 CXA tool holders will hold 1 inch tools. The tool holder capacity is 1.00 x 0.75 inch deep. So a 3/4 inch tool will fit flush and a 1 inch tool will stick out 1/4 inch.

On the other hand the Aloris CXA tool holders are smaller than the Dorian's CXA for some reason. The standard Aloris CXA tool holder capacity is only 0.75 x 0.625 and their 'oversize' tool holder is only 1.00 x 0.625 vs the Dorian. The Aloris CA tool holders are closer in capacity to the Dorian CXA's.

In other news I moved up $5k in price and I'm considering a Taiwan 16x40 with EVS, its sold under a bunch of brand names but Grizzly has the best price right now.

lakeside53
03-07-2015, 08:28 PM
With 1 inch you're talking about width of tool holder. Most are sold in terms of height, which is 3/4 for a Dorian CXA (and my Chinese tool holders). Width becomes more of an an issue when you mill down the height of a larger tool to fit in a smaller holder. I have tools that stick out an inch to the side of the holder and they work fine. Obviously it depends on what you so with them.

Dorian sure extracts a pound of gold for their posts and holders... I love the tool post, but I added about 10 Chinese holders to my collection after pricing more Dorian. Can't see any difference in performance, but... it sucks having metric socket head cap screws in half my holders ;)

coolidge
03-07-2015, 09:18 PM
lakeside53 I guess I'm not following you. For CXA in the Dorian catalog I see a tool height capacity of 1 inch (T), and a tool width capacity of 0.71 inch (D) - (G) hope this helps.

http://www.coolidgeamps.com/pics/d1.jpg

lakeside53
03-07-2015, 10:35 PM
Well... they must have changed something then - none of mine are 1 inch - all 3/4 high (maybe a tad higher). Maybe the -1 suffix is a change? Mine are mostly D35-CXA

coolidge
03-07-2015, 11:04 PM
Well its settled, I was able to speak with a G0509G owner and gather some measurements. The spindle centerline is 1.70 inches from the top of the compound where the QCTP would sit. The Dorian CXA "optimal" centerline height is listed at 1.65 inches in their catalog with an adjustable range of 1.25 to 2.25 inches so the Dorian CXA seems a near perfect fit. The Dorian CA optimal height is 1.937 inches with and adjustable range of 1.562 to 2.562 so a bit large.

For the record the compound is 3.8 inches wide vs the CXA width of 3.5 inches and CA width of 4 inches.

Guys thanks again for the input!

whoski
03-09-2015, 10:49 PM
pixman, You're right, it is a POS. I know because I bought one! Because returning it in my case was not a practical option, I had a machine tool rebuilder make it "right" to the tune of $3200. As you guessed the tail stock was not fitted properly and had to be scraped in. So Coolidge if you haven't ordered the 0509G yet, DON'T!!!

coolidge
03-10-2015, 01:48 PM
whoski thanks for that information. I have been in contact with other G0509G owners, so far most like them but they have reported a scattering of quality issues. It sounds like you have more serious issues with yours, feel free to elaborate or PM me if you wish.

At the moment I'm also looking at the made in Taiwan G0670 (also sold under several other brand names) for $13,500 and a Haas 16x30 TL1. These Taiwan lathes after you add a DRO, variable speed, a quality chuck I'm half way to a CNC Haas TL1...

lakeside53
03-10-2015, 05:56 PM
I'd love to have a TL-1... A friend of mine has one - really nice and a very powerful conversational mode to reduce the need to embrace cad/g-code.

coolidge
03-10-2015, 08:24 PM
This took the glow off getting a TL-1 :eek:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzoefjTkiCk

lakeside53
03-10-2015, 08:48 PM
hey, they do exactly what you tell them to do! I've had a couple of spectacular crashes on my mill... and quite a few minor ones - but they get less as time goes on.. :)