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Spin Doctor
04-18-2015, 03:34 PM
Tried a dead blow. Tried a sledge hammer to the inside wall of the time. Tried driving with the lug nuts finger tight. No luck period. Ideas? It would help if tire shops would use a little bit of Anti-Sieze. :mad:

CarlByrns
04-18-2015, 03:54 PM
Tried a dead blow. Tried a sledge hammer to the inside wall of the time. Tried driving with the lug nuts finger tight. No luck period. Ideas? It would help if tire shops would use a little bit of Anti-Sieze. :mad:

If the vehicle is heavy enough, loosen the lug nuts and, using a floor jack, jack it up as high as possible and drop the jack as fast as possible. Make take a couple of tries.

~or~

Do this in an empty parking lot, one wheel at at time.
Loosen the lug nuts and tighten finger-tight. Drive car around in tight circles alternating directions a couple of times. The idea here is to put a lot of pressure on the wheel. You'll hear the wheels pop. Torque the nuts up and drive home.

You have to get medieval with really stuck wheels.

Highpower
04-18-2015, 03:55 PM
Kroil inside the wheel center around the hub flange, back off of the "finger tight" lug nuts about 2 turns, go out and do some slaloms (hard left right turns) and let the weight of the vehicle do the work.

Ohio Mike
04-18-2015, 03:58 PM
Last ones that were stuck for me I had to use a large pry bar (the ones 5' long) behind the wheel. It was a truck so I had some frame to pry against. I tried a 2x4 first and broke it!

CalM
04-18-2015, 04:02 PM
Lug nuts finger tight then back a flat.

Then find a pot hole. ;-)

metalbender
04-18-2015, 04:15 PM
Loosen the nuts a tad, a bit of whatever juice suits you and come drive here in Saskatchewan. Guarantee success. ps make sure your teeth are tight.

dlsinak
04-18-2015, 04:42 PM
Try a mix of 50/50 ATF & acetone. Astounding penetrating oil:)

iMisspell
04-18-2015, 06:39 PM
I know simulare has been posted before, but maybe drop these guys an email, im sure they know a trick or two.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rvACiBclFI

_

garyhlucas
04-18-2015, 06:50 PM
Had this happen when we got a flat tire on a rental vehicle. Loosened the nuts hit the accelerator jammed on the brakes, nothing worked. With the car jacked up my coworker delivered a flying Karate kick and broke it loose! Who knew?

kendall
04-18-2015, 07:01 PM
I always alternate smacking with an 8 pound sledge on the inner sidewall and outer sidewalls. Put it on stands and whale on it. if they are good tires, a 2x long enough to reach out of the other side, blocked up to hit the rim, have helper turn the tire, while you hit the 2x with the sledge.
Afterwards, unless you got too enthusiastic with the sledge and damaged the rim, scuff the hole down and paint it or use anti-seize.

vpt
04-19-2015, 08:57 AM
What kind of vehicle/wheel?

Can a pulley puller be used in the center?

I haven't came across one yet that a rubber mallet or sledge and a block of wood to the inside wheel lip didn't pop it off.

justanengineer
04-19-2015, 11:38 PM
What size dead-blow did you use? Shops Ive worked in always had a long handled 16 or 20 lb'er for this exact reason.

boslab
04-20-2015, 06:28 AM
Warm the hub a bit where the wheel sits on the hub register in the centre, it worked for me, once hot BFH it a bit, rubber preferably
Mark

tlfamm
04-20-2015, 07:59 AM
Warm the hub a bit where the wheel sits on the hub register in the centre, it worked for me, once hot BFH it a bit, rubber preferably
Mark

I've never seen the verbal use of BFH before - truly innovative. :)

Evan
04-20-2015, 11:17 AM
Use boiling water to heat wheel, if you are near a heat source when needed. That insures the heat will not be high enough to change the aluminum alloy properties. Since aluminum expands three times more than iron for the same temperature that will make it much easier to remove. Had the same problem with a Jeep Cherokee some years back. It was on full warrantee so just took it to the shop.

Dave P.
04-20-2015, 12:15 PM
I've never seen the verbal use of BFH before - truly innovative. :)

You've had a very sheltered life.......
Dave

Spin Doctor
04-20-2015, 04:45 PM
My daughter took it into a shop by her and from what she told me they used a pry bar between the wheel and ?. Now I get to put breaks on for her. The deadblow I had was a 4lb. Just in case I brought a long handled one home from work today. Is definitely getting anti-sieze applied on all threads and faces.

bborr01
04-20-2015, 04:56 PM
I've read all of the posts here and am still not sure if you have a lug nut that you can't get loose or a wheel stuck on the hub. I think I ruled out getting the tire off the rim. What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

Brian

Rosco-P
04-20-2015, 05:15 PM
I've read all of the posts here and am still not sure if you have a lug nut that you can't get loose or a wheel stuck on the hub. I think I ruled out getting the tire off the rim. What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

Brian

Flat bolt circle portion of the alloy rim has frozen to the steel brake disc.

Willy
04-20-2015, 08:34 PM
My daughter took it into a shop by her and from what she told me they used a pry bar between the wheel and ?. Now I get to put breaks on for her. The deadblow I had was a 4lb. Just in case I brought a long handled one home from work today. Is definitely getting anti-sieze applied on all threads and faces.


I would apply anti seize or preferably a good water resistant grease on the face of the alloy wheel and the steel hub interface but would recommend against applying it to the stud or nut threads.
I realize many have done it for years without an incident but just a reminder that no OEM vehicle, wheel of hub manufacturer recommends the use of anti seize on wheel nuts or studs, in both commercial and private use.
Stud piloted wheels have a recommendation of dry, or oil on the threads only, not any on the hub/wheel nut seat. Hub piloted wheels almost always have a recommendation of a drop or 3 of engine oil applied the the studs and the flange washer of the nut.

The use of anti seize on wheel mounting components will lead to grossly over torqued wheel mounting components and possible wheel-offs. I my former line of work as a commercial driver this has lead to many deaths over the years until it was discovered that this was the common thread among all incidents and fatalities stemming from wheel-offs. I have been witness to accident investigations that have resulted from broken wheel mounting hardware and have seen the studs and nuts come under close scrutiny for any tel tale signs of anti seize.

A few years ago I watched a demo where a stud piloted wheel was torqued per recommendations. It was then taken apart to have all surfaces coated with anti seize and re torqued back to OEM specs. The anti seize coated hardware took almost 2 full turns more before reaching the proper torque value. The stud must have been close to it's yield strength point! Not much strength left after that

So do as you like but do so informed. Besides anti seize on the studs won't help the galvanic corrosion issues that make the wheel difficult to remove after snow and salt exposure.

CarlByrns
04-20-2015, 08:36 PM
Is definitely getting anti-sieze applied on all threads and faces.

Don't put anything on the threads. You think you've got problems now- greases and oils all attract road dirt that will cause the lug nuts to seize to the studs. The only way to get the nuts off is by grinding them or breaking them with a long bar.

Anti-seize should applied sparingly to the hub mating surfaces. Don't goop it on- a small blob on the end of a flux brush is more than enough for one hub.

Doozer
04-20-2015, 11:28 PM
Don't put anything on the threads. You think you've got problems now- greases and oils all attract road dirt that will cause the lug nuts to seize to the studs. The only way to get the nuts off is by grinding them or breaking them with a long bar....


Are you sure you are from New York?
I have used anti-sieze for years on everything and never had such a problem.
Truly odd indeed.

-Doozer

kendall
04-21-2015, 12:20 AM
Don't put anything on the threads. You think you've got problems now- greases and oils all attract road dirt that will cause the lug nuts to seize to the studs. The only way to get the nuts off is by grinding them or breaking them with a long bar.

Anti-seize should applied sparingly to the hub mating surfaces. Don't goop it on- a small blob on the end of a flux brush is more than enough for one hub.

That's why every vehicle I own, no matter what kind of rim they have has nice closed-ended, one piece chrome lug nuts. anti seize or oil the threads, run them down and they're sealed until I need to change/rotate the tire. If I ever get a vehicle with those formed caps on the lugs, I buy new solid lug nuts, then see how far I can throw those useless capped things.

bruto
04-21-2015, 01:28 AM
Living in New England and keeping vehicles a long time, I've run into this frequently.

If the vehicle can be driven and if it does not have anti lock brakes, you can usually get it going a bit and jam on the brakes. But the wheel has to lock to do this.

Otherwise, I have a huge cast iron hammer with a long handle, the kind of thing you might use for circus tent stakes, and few wheels can resist that for long. You must be careful, though, not to hit the rim.

Usually, before trying those methods, I get pretty good results by standing with my back to the wheel, and kicking backwards on the top. Have good boots on. Doing it this way around gives pretty good power without hurting yourself.

Black Forest
04-21-2015, 02:25 AM
We have a Toyota pickup that the rims get stuck on the hub. Last fall when it was time to change from summer to winter tires I jacked the truck and on the first wheel I could not get the rim off. I beat and pried to the point I thought something would be damaged. Then I called the dealership and asked them how to get the tires off. He said use a hammer and a pry bar. At that point I told him to come and get the truck and take it to the shop and change the tires and make sure they put something on so the wheels don't get stuck again. What we would have done if we got a flat on the road is beyond me. This is a one year old truck and the tires were changed once already. Now it is time to change to summer tires but I send the truck to the shop!

oldtiffie
04-21-2015, 04:15 AM
I'd be concerned that some of those wheel nuts that had so much "assistance" and may be approaching their yield of break points.

If needed (which I have several times) I have a "Road-side Assist" service which will tow/carry my car to my Mazda Dealer who services it. Works very well too!! Only a mobile/cell-phone call away.

The Doctor
04-21-2015, 04:45 AM
I worked at a BMW dealer back in the 80s, saw this problem quite often. It is quite easy to solve. What we always did was raise the car up on the lift and take the lugs out, then the removal of the stuck weel was a two-man operation. One guy would stand back a ways from the wheel and be the catcher, the other would grab hold firmly to something on the undercarriage which he could lift himself by, and give the wheel a very firm kick with both feet. The catcher would catch the wheel when it came loose, preventing it from hitting any nearby cars and denting them.


This could be done solo by loosening the lugs a few turns at a time, but it is easy to damage the threads that way.


Usually one or two good kicks is all it took, but if you had an especially badly stuck wheel, sometimes you need to give it a kick and then turn it a little, and keep repeating this until was loose.


I have used this method at home, but doing so requires a great deal of caution. As you need to be under the car when you do this, it is critical to make absolutely sure it cannot fall off of the Jack or Jack stands, or you could easily find yourself very dead.




Ed

Spin Doctor
04-21-2015, 05:45 AM
Thanks all. As it turned out the primary source of the problem was in the area surrounding the center of the hub. The guys at the shop where my daughter got the wheel loosened upsaid it ws the toughest one to get off they'd seen yet. IMHO the primary culprit is all the road salt they use on the Tri-State Tollway in Illinios. And yes I applied a thin coat of anti seize with a flux brush to the wheel-hub face and related hardware. I always use flux brushes for anti seize as the ones the come in the cans attached to the cap are worthless imo. The lug nuts are closed end solids as is the anti theft nut. 110k miles and the first time the brakes needed to be touched. I guess there is something to "highway miles"

A.K. Boomer
04-21-2015, 10:03 AM
Quote Originally Posted by CarlByrns View Post
Don't put anything on the threads. You think you've got problems now- greases and oils all attract road dirt that will cause the lug nuts to seize to the studs. The only way to get the nuts off is by grinding them or breaking them with a long bar....




Are you sure you are from New York?
I have used anti-sieze for years on everything and never had such a problem.
Truly odd indeed.

-Doozer

Not just New York --- I apply anti-seize to all wheel lug nut threads out here and many people live on dirt roads - it does attract dust but does not matter one bit --- decades of never having a seizure related failure of any kind - unless of course I go to remove a wheel that iv never done before and does not have any on it, lots of failures and lug replacements that way,,, it is the single BEST thing you can do for lugs... don't forget to get some on the taper seats too, it prevents galling there also.

Arcane
04-21-2015, 11:34 AM
Quote Originally Posted by CarlByrns View Post
Don't put anything on the threads. You think you've got problems now- greases and oils all attract road dirt that will cause the lug nuts to seize to the studs. The only way to get the nuts off is by grinding them or breaking them with a long bar....





Not just New York --- I apply anti-seize to all wheel lug nut threads out here and many people live on dirt roads - it does attract dust but does not matter one bit --- decades of never having a seizure related failure of any kind - unless of course I go to remove a wheel that iv never done before and does not have any on it, lots of failures and lug replacements that way,,, it is the single BEST thing you can do for lugs... don't forget to get some on the taper seats too, it prevents galling there also.
I agree. I've seen damage to nuts and studs including seizing from lack of lubrication but I have never seen a failure or problem caused by lubrication. A friend who owns a local garage has been using lube on studs for decades and has never had one problem.

I think the "don't lube wheel studs" is as valid as having to have left hand threads on the studs on the left hand side of a car to prevent them from loosening from the rotation of the wheel.

dian
04-21-2015, 11:57 AM
i usually take a piece of wood and use the power steering.

kendall
04-21-2015, 03:28 PM
i usually take a piece of wood and use the power steering.

Tried that on an F150 once, actually dismounted the inside bead.

Evan
04-22-2015, 04:10 AM
Lubricating the threads with anything, oil or antisieze, should never result in a failure of the fastener at proper calculated torque limit. If it does then the design is inadequate. Counting on friction caused by lack of lubrication is not a proper design tool since the amount of friction present in various conditions is very unpredictable. The only predictable and repeatable torque value is on a lubricated fastener.

vpt
04-22-2015, 07:45 AM
I hate anti-seize. The most I do is put a drop of oil on the threads.

I have said it before, the only wheel studs I ever had to replace were covered in anti-seize. It is messy crap.

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 09:42 AM
the only wheel studs I ever had to replace were covered in anti-seize. It is messy crap.

Andy listen to Evan, the reason torque values are predictable and repeatable with lubrication is the very fact that there's no funny business going on between the stud and the nut,,, and there's no better "stick to your ribs" lubrication than anti-seize" yes it's messy if you put it places where it don't belong or use enough to where centrifugal force is going to sling it out on your wheels - stop doing that,,,
as far as it causing problems im not buying it - probably was put on by a mechanic that was trying to save studs after they galled from removal,,, sometimes works - sometimes don't as once things start balling up it's a crap shoot at best...

Willy
04-22-2015, 10:33 AM
Lubricating the threads with anything, oil or antisieze, should never result in a failure of the fastener at proper calculated torque limit. If it does then the design is inadequate. Counting on friction caused by lack of lubrication is not a proper design tool since the amount of friction present in various conditions is very unpredictable. The only predictable and repeatable torque value is on a lubricated fastener.

I have to ask myself, how are you guys that advocate the use of anti seize arriving at this figure, or are you even taking this into consideration?
This is the very reason that you will not find any recommendations for using anti seize on wheel mounting hardware from any hub, wheel, car or truck OEM, or wheel mounting hardware manufacturer.

On the contrary they all specifically advise to not use it. Not because it is a bad product with unrepeatable results, but because there are no guarantees that it's use will be universal.
It is fantastic product that will give very repeatable torque values but unless everyone uses it with properly re- calculated torque values it's use is not recommend.
Clean dry threads is the industry standard for automotive wheel nuts, the only mention of lubricant is a drop or two of "motor oil" on two piece flange style nuts when used on hub piloted wheels. This is the basis for determining torque values. More specific recommendations are available for commercial applications but this is probably out of the scope of interest for this discussion.
I realize it's inefficient to do it this way and agree to the value and effectiveness of anti seize, but the point is, unless it is as universal as clean dry threads (even this is questionable) it will not be an industry accepted standard.

This from Henkle's online pdf, Understanding the True Value of Anti Seize....



Torque-Tension Relationship

Much time, thought, and effort is needed to design a proper bolted joint or threaded fastener assembly. It is, however, the person with the wrench who has the greatest influence over the success and overall reliability of this design. If the improper torque value is applied, the magnitude of the clamp load is affected; clamp load is the most critical factor in the behavior of a bolted joint. As much as 90 percent of the torque applied to a fastener is used to overcome friction between interfacing surfaces. When applying an anti seize to your components, the torque value to achieve the same clamp load will be lower. If anti seize is used with the torque specified for a dry assembly, you risk exceeding the proof load of the fastener.


The Booklet from Henkle Corporation, (Locktite Products) also goes on to discuss how to measure clamp load and how to determine what your re-calculated torque values should be be based on.
No sense typing all of that out here as I'm sure you guys that use anti seize on your wheel nuts and seats have already taken all of that into consideration.:)

Like I said earlier the indiscriminate use of anti seize is not going to automatically land you and your family on you heads, however it dose go against industry standards, so use it if you must, but use it wisely. I have used it too in the past without harm, however I have learned from the fatal mistakes of others. Much Like DDT and asbestos that I have been exposed to in the past...I know better now.

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 11:13 AM
Willy clamp loading is exactly why I use it ---- there is a built in engineering buffer and never have I surpassed a studs rating to where it then failed later on due to using a dab of anti seize to prevent galling --

Yes I have considered all the points your bringing up - and ran with it,

For here's what you have on the flip side of clamp loading WITH galling --- most all your torque is being eaten up in torsional friction, what this means is clamp loading is miniscule,

I'll take my chances with a lug I know may be cinched up a little more than barely at all, and nearly 4 decades later not one related failure of a lug stud due to it "popping" or stripping from overtightening...

one dab of anti -seize and a decade later there's still no reason to re-apply, the stuff hangs around and embeds and then there's still no worries about galling, you can run dry and pay the price, or you can measure out a drop of oil everytime after youv cleaned everything from last time, sorry - but I simply don't have that kinda time esp. when iv found something that's been flawless for decades...

it does what it's supposed to do, and is by far the best approach given all the alternatives - unless of course you want to charge 60 bucks for a wheel rotation everytime...

Willy
04-22-2015, 11:29 AM
--- most all your torque is being eaten up in torsional friction, what this means is clamp loading is miniscule,


This is exactly the issue, industry standards base the torque value of a wheel fastener on those facts because they are repeatable. I have no issue with the benefits of anti seize I use it as well, but look up some of the recommendations of progressive and safety conscious wheel and tire suppliers, they emphatically advise not to use it for that application. Name me one OEM auto, wheel or wheel hardware manufacturer that specifically recommends it's use.

You're not arguing with me, you are arguing with industry standards, so jump up and down all you want (and I half agree agree with you) you're doing it wrong. This in spite of all of the side benefits of a product that I whole heartedly endorse.

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 11:40 AM
And you can talk industry standards all you want, but out here in the real world all's Im saying is I don't think iv ever seen one other thing work so predictably good over all these years,,,

stops galling, stops corrosion that leads to galling - and yet never had an overtightening failure because of it...

Even Porsche magnesium lug nuts benefit, you would think with the extra cinch up your so concerned about magnesium threads would pull, but they don't and in fact due to them not wanting to "bond" with the wheel stud they last allot longer with the anti-seize, they are also designed with a dead end cap so no worries about grit shortening their life either...

Evan
04-22-2015, 11:45 AM
"I have to ask myself, how are you guys that advocate the use of anti seize arriving at this figure, or are you even taking this into consideration? "

The correct torque values for any quality fasteners are available based on the size, strength, fastener type and thread type. Fasteners such as cap screws and various bolts or studs are usually characterized by the strength rather than the alloy type. Torque values are based on fastener stretch that does or doesn't produce permanent stretching. Permanent stretch fasteners such as those commonly used to fasten wing spars are nearly always considered to be single use (or single time tightening). Obviously, this is not how a wheel stud will be designed but even then there are limits based on how many times the fastener has been re-torqued. Steel in general is considered to not develop fatigue when it is stretched to less than about half the plastic failure limit but when it goes above that value then fatigue sets in. When fatigue starts to get within the very high end but not quite at the plastic limit of permanent stretch then the fatigue produced by each re-torque lowers that plastic limit appreciably, usually by causing work hardening and increasing brittleness. That is when the studs start breaking.

If you do not have a good and repeatable value from the torque measuring device you have no good idea of just how close you are approaching the limit. Not using a lube on something like a wheel stud is a good guarantee that you will not have a good measure of the torque applied. In particular, when tightening wheel studs there is a very good reason to do it in a specified sequence pattern to insure that the torque applied is being properly measured and not overly influenced by very slight cocking of the wheel as it is drawn against the hub assembly. Also, lube on the various contact surfaces also makes it more possible to read a good torque by preventing sticking before the parts are actually in full contact.

All fancy words but use lube and follow the correct tightening sequence and all will be good, assuming your torque wrench is working properly. I can't count the number of times I have seen wheels fastened in no particular sequence using an air wrench set to maximum with a compressor at higher than proper air pressure. Makes it a faster job. Wheels fall off and kill my best friends daughter years ago when it is done that way.

tlfamm
04-22-2015, 12:05 PM
I had an unusual experience with anti-seize: it was in a metal 1/2 pint (?) can sitting on a shelf in my garage. It was seldom used, and the last time I attempted to do so, I found that it had eaten through the can, and eaten through the metal shelf as well. I don't recall the brand, it might have been something sold to the trades only.


My current product is in a plastic container ...

tlfamm
04-22-2015, 12:42 PM
The following is an interesting study done in Israel of the use of anti-seize compound on the bolts of a helicopter rotor drive assembly:

http://www.eng.tau.ac.il/~neliaz/Papers_Files/C27.pdf


"..In conclusion, the bolts in the helicopter’s main rotor drive plate assembly failed in overload mechanism.
The cause of failure was improper application of the antiseize material on the whole length of the bolt,
which resulted in the development of axial tension forces approximately 1.7 higher than normal. Following this investigation, the maintenance team was instructed to always apply the antiseize material on the
threads zone only, without necessity of surface precleaning with MEK. Although no limitation was found
with respect to reuse of bolts (see note b of Table 1), it was recommended to clarify this issue with the
manufacturer."

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 12:50 PM
You're not arguing with me, you are arguing with industry standards, so jump up and down all you want (and I half agree agree with you) you're doing it wrong. This in spite of all of the side benefits of a product that I whole heartedly endorse.

I will also state this Willy, many people don't take into account just what happens in just mild galling or just plain dry binding,,, including "industry standards"

Nut's and bolts are simply inclined plane devices that trade friction for cinch up, it's the concern of the relationship and ratio's that we change and interrupt between these two by choosing to either run these systems dry or provide lubrication for them,

You initial concerns about exceeding the tinsel strength of the stud are noted - it's something I weighed out way back when I was about 17 and started using anti-seize,,,

but the fact is - is that in the real world there's far bigger fish to fry then just reducing friction some and causing more cinch-up therefore creating more linear tinsel loading on the bolt in the way for which it was designed for,

galling or thread binding can be way more detrimental and harder to detect, as after all it just masks itself as torque --- yet it's not just way more dangerous in not getting enough of it - therefor having reduced cinch up,
there's also something extremely dangerous about it in another way and that's the fact that most all friction is being torsionally transferred to the stud through the nuts threads - that's whats causing the resistance due to the inclined plane failing to function,,, Why is this such an important discrimination? it's because now you can very easily surpass the studs elasticity torsionally - and it's very easy to do, think of double nutting your average wheel stud and putting regular torque on it, snap...

running dry wheel lugs has this effect upon tightening,,, in fact about the worse combination is lubing the seats tapers and not the threads,,, two piece lugs with built in washer can already have this effect some on the taper and yes even dry, they provide a more friction free area, so if the studs are dry this is a very bad combo - cinch up just starts and lugs bind then most all effort is simply a locked up torsion on the stud - not good, and in fact back it off and keep doing it and you could very well witness torsion failure...

it's things like this that blow general "industry standards" out of the water, the real world devil is always in the details,
I'll pick most industry standards apart when I want to get picky, common sense will always rule...

lugs are built with a certain amount of safety net when talking tinsel strength ---- and there is also a certain amount of torsional strength consideration for upon cinch up, in my experience iv never exceeded the tinsel strength due to using anti-seize, at least not anywhere near failure, and I have absolutely no worries about torsionally due to a fair rating of the torsion effort being applied linear to cinch up and therefor the resistance of an operable inclined plane - not one that "stuck" a quarter revolution earlier and is greatly stressing the outside of the studs diameter with no real bennies for linear tightening...

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 12:54 PM
Tlfamm ---- timely post as I just finished the dangers of something similar with auto lugs, lubing the seats without the threads is the worst possible combination but for another reason, torsional loading of studs upon cinch up...

Evan
04-22-2015, 01:04 PM
Because of the way that fatigue builds up in iron alloys anything such as a wheel stud will be designed to be multiple times stronger than the normal operating torque load. Correctly designed, it should be impossible to torque it off, no matter how many times it has been re-torqued, using the proper torque and lubricants on the threads. In other words, it should never become easier to make it fail. That will only happen if it is highly over-torqued and it isn't lube that does it. Of course, if it isn't properly tightened because of crappy threads etc. then other factors will enter the picture such as very high and very many repeated side loads from a very slightly loose wheel. That is why most pro tire shops now insist that the wheels be re-torqued a few hundred miles after a tire change.

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 01:47 PM
Over the years iv seen two piss poor wheel designs that induce failure, one was the three lug renualt "le-car", kinda goes without saying that the minimum lugs on anything besides a wheel barrow should be four - that way if one does fail at least you got a fighting chance...

other design was the 4WD ford ranger and Mazda b 4000, they simply have the 4WD hub sandwiched with the wheel -and only thing holding the hubs grease back is an O-ring that likes to shrink and crystalize,,, then what you have is the type of failure Evan just mentioned - but in this case even though the lugs are tight the wheel is allowed to oscillate due to there being two flat smooth plates under it that are now lubricated so will choose to allow the wheel to move under bumps and such - then eventually start fatigue snapping lugs,

Only wheel that ever loosened on me - worker caught it in time and it did not fall off, I think I was the last one who put it on but were also not sure as could have been a tire shop too, and it took a couple years or more after the fact and after the O-rings failed and the plates got all juicy with grease... bad design...

bruto
04-22-2015, 02:24 PM
An interesting observation on the three lug French wheels, because I for years drove old Peugeots with three lug wheels and had the opposite experience. Perhaps Peugeot did a better job with the materials, but the studs were enormously strong, and the lug nuts were also very strong, very hard, and had an integral washer. I would have preferred four or five instead of three, but they were always easy to get off and on and never seemed to seize or gall. The older ones also had a nipple at the end, and the bar in the tool kit for the spark plug wrench had a socketed end to match, which allowed you to feed a wheel onto the stud without struggling. Very clever. The biggest disadvantage of those wheels (a Citroen design I think) was that they had no hole in the center, requiring hammer and lever tire changes and balancing on the car. But after a few years with old Peugeots I became very good at hammer and lever tire changes and can pop tires on and off just about anything in a jiffy!

CarlByrns
04-22-2015, 02:41 PM
Are you sure you are from New York?
I have used anti-sieze for years on everything and never had such a problem.
Truly odd indeed.

-Doozer

Syracuse, New York.
I wrenched on cars professionally for ten years and saw all kinds of owner (or misguided corner gas station)-induced damage due to slathering greases, oils, or anti-seize compounds on wheel studs. It used to be pretty much a once a month thing.
Road dirt, salt, and brake dust rapidly coat the exposed threads with a nice gritty paste. If the paste is thoroughly cleaned off before removing the nuts, it's not an issue, but no one ever carries solvent and rags with them and flat tires rarely occur within walking distance of a well lit shop.

No automotive or heavy truck company advocates the use of any lubricant on wheel studs.

CarlByrns
04-22-2015, 02:46 PM
Willy clamp loading is exactly why I use it ---- there is a built in engineering buffer and never have I surpassed a studs rating to where it then failed later on due to using a dab of anti seize to prevent galling

So what is the built in engineering buffer and how did you arrive at it?

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 03:15 PM
So what is the built in engineering buffer and how did you arrive at it?



The built in buffer is this --- real world experience on just about every automobile around the globe and using anti-seize on all of them and never having one over-torque or galling related failure,

I do not know how many would have failed upon tightening or the wheel falling off due to a false torque reading as a result from galling --- never had the "opportunity" to record that data due to always assembling with anti-seize, but I can tell you approximately how many broke whilst dry and just trying to remove, dozens, and I can tell you if their galling just from the initial tension of trying to remove then tightening would be even worse,,,
so with a superior track record of doing it one way with both assembly and disassembly up against a vastly inferior track record just in removal and not even including what would have happened in "low cinch" assembly including the possibility of dead people - that are all still living today and or died of more "natural causes" other than ignorance of their mechanic Im pretty sure I can safely tell people what direction to go on this one... give em a quick swipe you will never regret it...

Willy
04-22-2015, 03:21 PM
............. Name me one OEM auto, wheel or wheel hardware manufacturer that specifically recommends it's use.

You're not arguing with me, you are arguing with industry standards, so jump up and down all you want (and I half agree with you) you're doing it wrong. This in spite of all of the side benefits of a product that I whole heartedly endorse.

So yes please if you will, give us the names of those OEM's who are encouraging the use anti seize on wheel mounting hardware. I'm waiting.:)

I have always striven to mitigate any safety related issues during my former career as a commercial driver, safety was always my predominate goal. Almost 4 decades of 40-70 ton vehicles (mostly dangerous goods or hazardous material loads) in some very trying conditions without one incident. I'm proud of that because it takes recognition and perseverance to accomplish. When I found a better more informed process I followed it. The fact is that a number of high profile fatalities and a large number of incidents who's causes included the misuse of anti seize on wheel mounting hardware allowed me to learn from the mistakes of others.
Just because many use it without incident does not make it right. Piss in the wind enough and perhaps not you, but somebody will get wet. Accident studies will bare this out.

Thought that maybe you would like Permatex's perspective on the use of it's anti seize product on wheel studs.

http://www.permatex.com/resources/faqs/answers/5-lubricants



Does Permatex® suggest applying anti-seize to lubricate lug nuts when installing or tightening the nuts?

-

Permatex® does not recommend the use of any anti-seize product on wheel studs. Many people have used anti-seize for this applications, however, there is the potential for over-torqueing and therefore, higher clamp loads and potentially dangerous bolt stretch. Because of the lubricity of anti-seize, there is a tendency to over-tighten because of the ease with which the nut will bear down on the lug. For this reason, even if you try to torque the nuts to factory specs, the clamp load may become too high depending on the type of bolt, size and manufacture

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 03:42 PM
An interesting observation on the three lug French wheels, because I for years drove old Peugeots with three lug wheels and had the opposite experience. Perhaps Peugeot did a better job with the materials, but the studs were enormously strong, and the lug nuts were also very strong, very hard, and had an integral washer. I would have preferred four or five instead of three, but they were always easy to get off and on and never seemed to seize or gall. The older ones also had a nipple at the end, and the bar in the tool kit for the spark plug wrench had a socketed end to match, which allowed you to feed a wheel onto the stud without struggling. Very clever. The biggest disadvantage of those wheels (a Citroen design I think) was that they had no hole in the center, requiring hammer and lever tire changes and balancing on the car. But after a few years with old Peugeots I became very good at hammer and lever tire changes and can pop tires on and off just about anything in a jiffy!


Bruto your an exception - you do your own work and also got your act together, in general that's not the case,,, so certain things in the automobile industry are a little like aviation and should have a little redundancy built into them, and wheel lugs are one of those things,,, you have four wheels - a tire guy or mechanic has a brain fart on one lug (or a seizure he isn't aware of because he also does not use anything on the threads) and even on a four lug wheel a guys still got a fighting chance, most likely not a problem due to the geometry that's left holding on the wheel.

not so with three lugs, now you have exceeded the 180 degree mark with nothing to hold --- around turns and esp. around turns and hitting bumps it's just a matter of time - the remaining lugs are going to be so stressed they will eventually give up the ghost... they will relax a little and so will everything involved like wheel taper seats with all the fretting and such --- days are numbered, its not "if" it's more so "when" and what can be so lethal about it is "when" one of the remaining two lugs finally decides its not being treated fairly and "want's out" then it's total abrupt failure with no real warning , the wheel will be set free,,, hopefully its not around a turn with oncoming traffic or it's lights out for everyone...

Now you could show me a pic of some kind of wheel that's twice the rigidity and lugs that are just plain massive and have all kinds of overkill that way just so you can drive a three lug car with a little more assurance if one of the lugs was never torqued properly do to either just plain error of missing it or error of it galling due to being dry - but why? why not just build the un-sprung weight much lighter in the first place and throw in another lug? or two...

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 03:53 PM
Willy permatex is a brand, and yes it does increase the tinsel load, but just like anything you weigh out the benefits and risks against doing nothing, in my experience never a problem and been at this awhile too,

The "brand" thing is important - had they gave it the go ahead one related failure even out of billions of successes can shut them down in the courtroom, and perhaps sink the ship...
if the big thing was marvel mystery oil or castrol GTX the answer would be the same... they cannot recommend that...

but again - good luck in the guess work of not knowing if things got torsionally binded or properly cinched --- personally - I do not have that worry and never will...

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 04:08 PM
To put things in perspective for you let's just say "doing nothing" was a brand,,, you go to the store and buy this wand, get home - waive it about your lugs and it's guaranteed to change nothing,,,

from my experience so far the failure rate is well into the dozens and dozens and I don't have one failure of the anti-seize only great successes...

so if the tables were turned and you could actually sue for doing nothing what do you think the brand name "do nothing" would be recommending when asked if their brand was safe to use on wheel lugs?

the answer would go something like "hell no it ain't" that is if they wanting to stay in business...

Rosco-P
04-22-2015, 04:14 PM
Any reason paint, maybe epoxy based paint couldn't be applied to the surface of the brake disc to prevent future corrosion and sticking of the rim?

mattthemuppet
04-22-2015, 05:22 PM
I tried painting my new disks and drums once (not the braking surfaces obviously) with high temp paint and it lasted about a month before the paint came off. Now they're they usual rusty metal objects. I'm guessing the heat cycling lifted the paint off.

I think Willy and AK are coming at the same thing but from different directions. Under ideal conditions you shouldn't use anti-seize as there's a risk that you'll over-torque and stretch the bolts, due to the high lubricity allowing higher clamping values for the same apparent torque values. That assumes squeaky clean threads, no rust, dust, galling etc. Which may be the case for the first few thousand miles, but certainly isn't the case after a couple 100,000 miles :) Then, all that rust and imperfect surfaces results in a lower clamping value for the same apparent torque value, due to the increased friction and binding of those mating surfaces. Here anti-seize helps as it a) prevents alot of that rust and galling in the first place and b) increases lubricity if there are surface imperfections. Obviously common sense should prevail in both cases - keep the threads clean, don't apply too much of anything, don't go crazy with the air gun, use the appropriate tightening pattern.

Another point worth making - all of the OEMs and anti-seize makers say not to use antiseize on wheel studs as they are implicitly assuming those perfect conditions mentioned above AND they don't want their ar$es sued if some numpty with a tube of grease and a 12ft long cheater bar fatally weakens their wheel studs.

Evan
04-22-2015, 05:23 PM
I strongly suspect the mention of "potential for over-torquing" is correct but only because it will allow for improper or no measurement torque application to apply even greater torque than when it is resisted by a dirty and/or damaged stud. In particular, this sentence clearly says that is what they refer to:


"Because of the lubricity of anti-seize, there is a tendency to over-tighten because of the ease with which the nut will bear down on the lug."

Just as clearly using a proper torque wrench and paying attention to the reading will not result in over-torquing. The problem is not the anti-seize, it is how the lug nut is being installed and failing to pay attention to the readings. Using lubricant will allow for much more accurate and consistent torque application, which is also implied by Permatex.

vpt
04-22-2015, 06:33 PM
With ARP bolts and studs they give multiple torque values for the same stud/bolt/nut with the use of either dry, oil, or the ARP moly lube.

You can't put anti-seize on a stud and use the factory "dry" torque specs or you will go over that given spec period.

Just to clarify it wasn't I that broke or ruined the broken studs covered in anti-seize that I had to replace. It was customer cars, who covered the studs themselves with anti-seize and then either broke the stud instantly when tightening or had it broke after tightening (to spec they tell me) and then driving and having the stud break while driving.

Personally I don't like the mess. Even just looking at the bottle seems to get it on my hands, pants, shirt, tools, everywhere! Absolutely HATE the stuff!

CarlByrns
04-22-2015, 06:49 PM
The built in buffer is this --- real world experience on just about every automobile around the globe and using anti-seize on all of them and never having one over-torque or galling related failure,

"Real world experience" is a phrase that is interchangeable with "it worked for me" or "I'm just guessing". None of those phrases stands up well in court.

Spin Doctor
04-22-2015, 07:06 PM
Boy this really opened a can of worms didn't it. At work we use Anti-Seize on all fasteners and mechanical fits. With one exception. On bearing fits we use Castrol Optimol T Paste. The bearing fits on shafts are generally an m6 ISO fit. Fasteners range from A2-70 and A4-80 stainless to 8.8, 10.9 and 12.9 carbon steel screws. Black Oxide and plated. Our rotating assemblies are a magnetic grade stainless with some other components of 316 stainless. Plus other components of carbon steel. We call for a very specific torque reduction of all fasteners when lubricated. In all the time I have worked there I have yet to see a fastener that has galled if proper assembly procedures were followed. The machines I work on are primarily involved in de-watering municiple sludge. That's right, poop. Or processed poop. Even ancillilary equipment such as conveyors which can see verynasty environments are much easier to dis-assemble when proper assembly procedures are followed. As to over torqueing of lug nuts with anti seize applied. It is highly unlikely that tightening by hand with a lug wrench is going to exceed the gorillas at tire shops with their impact guns. Plus when I get the chance I will loosen the ones I did this week end and torque to proper values. Can we let this die now

Evan
04-22-2015, 07:22 PM
No need to make it die, everybody is being reasonably well behaved. Discussions such as this can be very informative even if there is a bit of chaff in the wheat.

Stainless Steel is an area where some sort of lubricant is essential. Nothing I have worked with galls easier and faster than SS. Without a lube of some sort the torque values read will be essentially meaningless. And, without a lube you have a good chance of twisting the fastener in SS. The differences between the various materials used for the stud versus the nut is also a big variable. Lube removes most of that variable. The worst situation is always like against like where the materials of both are the same. That promotes galling. The best nearly always is like against dislike and in particular hard(er) against soft(er). That tends to prevent galling and especially when the "harder" contains carbon, carbon being a good lubricant.

vpt
04-22-2015, 08:04 PM
I agree, on stainless to stainless fasteners I normally like to use lube unless it is a one time assembly. But even then I still like to use arp moly lube over anti-seize. I have tried all sort of "moly liube" and found that none of them compare to the "wetting" arp moly lube has for some reason. I buy the big tubes from them.

oldtiffie
04-22-2015, 08:55 PM
I don't know if wheel hut indicators are used on light or domestic vehicle elsewhere but these types of wheel nut indicators are mandatory in specified heavy vehicles in OZ:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=heavy+vehicle+wheel+nut+indicators&biw=1536&bih=706&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=oUE4VY-aJMO_mwWr1oGYBw&ved=0CEUQsAQ&dpr=1.25

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=heavy+vehicle+wheel+nut+indicators

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 08:56 PM
"Real world experience" is a phrase that is interchangeable with "it worked for me" or "I'm just guessing". None of those phrases stands up well in court.

hardly "just guessing"
and as far as the "it worked for me" that is a substantial statement due to it working and never failing tens or actually closer to hundreds of thousands of times if you get right down to it --- and yes that can hold up in court ---

conversation goes something like; (defense); --- Mr. Boomer how many lugs have you tightened without failure using anti-seize compound?

(mr. boomer); --- I would have to say tens of thousands - scratch that more like hundreds of thousands

(defense); Mr. Boomer just for the record you are aware that you are under oath are you not?

(mr. boomer); yes im completely aware of that, and even though agnostic do not want to take a chance with the "big man"

(defense); the defense comfortably rest your honor

(prostitution); we have no questions at this time :-(

Jury; we the jury find the defendant not only innocent but a credit to his trade and should be rewarded the coveted well sought after superwrench award...

Mr. Boomer; been there done that and already got one sitting on the shelf but thank you for the offer... :p

boslab
04-22-2015, 10:08 PM
He got tried by a prostitute, lol, I love spell checkers, just as funny as cats.
Mark

A.K. Boomer
04-22-2015, 10:51 PM
spell check had nothing to do with it - but getting a chuckle out of you did :)

vpt
04-23-2015, 07:41 AM
Lets just say that at some point a wheel does come off one of those cars that you slathered anti-seize all over its nuts. That tire either hits another vehicle or the vehicle missing its wheel goes in the ditch and kills everyone.

When it comes down to standing in court you better hope no one saw the anti-seize or asks you if you used anti-seize. Because if they do you will be "IT". Not one wheel manufacturer, auto maker, or wheel stud manufacturer recommends anti-seize. There must be a reason for it and it isn't because of possible "over torque" otherwise they would just simply give a second torque spec for when using anti-seize.

CarlByrns
04-23-2015, 07:44 AM
hardly "just guessing"
and as far as the "it worked for me" that is a substantial statement due to it working and never failing tens or actually closer to hundreds of thousands of times if you get right down to it --- and yes that can hold up in court ---

conversation goes something like; (defense); --- Mr. Boomer how many lugs have you tightened without failure using anti-seize compound?

(mr. boomer); --- I would have to say tens of thousands - scratch that more like hundreds of thousands

(defense); Mr. Boomer just for the record you are aware that you are under oath are you not?

(mr. boomer); yes im completely aware of that, and even though agnostic do not want to take a chance with the "big man"

(defense); the defense comfortably rest your honor


(Prosecution); Please show us your engineering degree.

(mr. boomer); I-I don't have one.

(Prosecution); Then at least show us where you have calculated the different torque specs between lubricated and non-lubricated wheel fasteners for every vehicle you've ever worked on.

(mr. boomer); I can't.

(Jury); we the jury find the defendant guilty of practicing engineering without a license.

(Mr. Boomers shop insurance company); Policy cancelled, you're out of business.

bruto
04-23-2015, 09:22 AM
I'm quite prepared to believe that overtorque is the main reason for not specifying anti-seize, remembering that most wheels are installed with an air wrench, and carelessly at that. Whenever I get new tires on a car, one of the first things I do is to loosen and retighten all the lugs, and even dry they're usually over torqued to a point that would make roadside changes difficult if not impossible.

A.K. Boomer
04-23-2015, 01:38 PM
[QUOTE=CarlByrns;979583](Prosecution); Please show us your engineering degree.

(mr. boomer); I don't have one.

(Prosecution); Then at least show us where you have calculated the different torque specs between lubricated and non-lubricated wheel fasteners for every vehicle you've ever worked on.

(mr. boomer) Im not required to do so any more than someone assembling dry studs that have experienced several routine wheel rotations in the course of a year or two and have been out in the elements including corrosive road salts and rain is required to have calculated the higher torque values it would take for them to achieve the same axial loading of the wheel when new...

It's a hardcore engineering fact that these values change very fast when parts are being used totally dry, this is a lab tested statement and I have a vast amount of proof and documents on my side by extremely credible engineers, but don't just take their word for it, when I knew I was coming to trial about the subject matter I conducted my own test of dried out studs that were exposed to the elements and also ones of the same age with some anti-seize compound on just the threads, I compared both studies to a brand new cars studs of the same make/model thread pitch and size --- all wheels had a plastic deformation disc slipped between wheel and hub - all wheels were torqued to the same values,
As you can see the deformation disc from the dry lugs shows far lesser torque and also un-uniform values between studs - where the one with the anti-seize is almost identical to the newer cars test disc,,,

Also to verify that my findings are correct --- here's all the test studies from the reputable engineers about what happens to dry exposed fasteners just after a few uses without any lubrication at all and out in the elements of rain/salt and therefor are entering a corrosion stage ,
the nice flat ramped incline plane of the threads gets rounded, resulting in higher unit pressures of the threads - resulting in even more galling and binding and less and less of the fasteners capability to transmit axial loading,
What this means in laymans terms is that the fastener cannot do it's job properly, or more torque would have to be applied to get the same results, which I would have to conclude would create even more galling/binding and change the fasteners values even more,,, not to mention pushing it well past it's torque rating esp. when it's mostly in a locked up torsional mode and transferring this to the stud - very dangerous,,,

I try to avoid this ever changing and I might add impossible situation to predict by keeping things more uniform throughout the fasteners lifespan...
It's not to drastically change the fasteners tinsel loading by "slathering" copious amounts of lubricating substance on it, it's simply applying enough to stop galling/binding, to allow for proper metal compatibilities and to prevent corrosion - that's also all right there in the test studies,,, in comparison to the rapidly deterioration of what happens to dry lugs the ones with anti-seize hold their values far closer to the new studs rating except they keep consistently doing it...

the studies talk about the engineering torque values of brand new shiny parts that actually have slight lubrication properties just in the machining processes alone and then being tested in a lab, and how these values are extremely flawed after just a few uses of being totally dry and out in the elements, yet there is no compensating factors involved for the decrease of tinsel loading which is directly responsible for the axial loading of the wheel, and according to engineering standards this axial loading is critical to keep the wheel from moving and therefore stressing the studs in a way for which they are not designed...

I also have to add if I see that the tapered seats are galled or distorted I will do the same to them as they will take up precious torque values that would otherwise be dedicated to proper axial load mounting of the wheel itself,,,
that too is provided in the studies iv given you,

This small measure of preventative maintenance assures uniform torque values of the lug/stud and wheels seats throughout the course of their entire life, which I might add is several times longer due to not galling/binding and protecting critical area's against corrosion...

any other questions?

(Prosecution); Mr. Boomer - are you or are you not aware of the fact that anti-seize can apply more tinsel loading to the bolt itself - a simple yes or no will do please.

(Mr. Boomer); the answer is both yes and no - depends on the fastener and how long it's been run dry, if both it and it's seat have been damaged much - then even the anti-seize compound may not be able to bring the tinsel loading back up to recommended standards, yet the alternative of using nothing can prove to be detrimental,,,

on the flip side, if the fasteners brand new a little applied on threads to just prevent galling/binding will not change the value substantially, and in fact more importantly will help keep it that way, so unless someone gets carried away, there is never any huge concern of it miraculously creating a situation in which drastic tinsel loading changes will occur,

but now I will tell you the big difference between the two methods of practice,,, doing nothing has every potential to create the biggest change in critical load values, and were not talking about a single digit % gains, in fact it is possible to have absolutely no axial loading whatsoever of the fastener - even though it has proper torque rating on it...
we are talking drastic results that nobody can possibly be aware of,,, this means almost all torque effort can simply be going to binding and next to nothing being applied to the axial mounting of the wheel itself... and since the binding/galling usually starts to happen under load then it can be greatly masked the second the taper seat touches down,
the trouble with this method is you may think your tightening the wheel to the hub, but most all of your effort is simply being put into the friction of the fasteners threads with no ramp up results that should be increasing tinsel tension..
this is very dangerous in both thinking and practice...

above all and foremost precautions must be taken to prevent this from ever happening, and the only way to practically do this is to apply an anti-seize compound...
(prosecution) No further questions :-(






(defense); Mr. Boomer - if what your saying and all the reputable engineers that are taking their thinking farther than just a simple controlled semi-lubricated one time bench test rating with polished parts is true - then one would have to conclude that by doing nothing the recommended wheel lug torque that is actually responsible for the axial load ratings are progressively changing to the lesser and lesser values as more use and time goes on? and yet nobody is compensating for that fact?

(Mr. Boomer) Yes --- exactly, well not exactly exactly - I and a select few others are compensating for this fact... and or trying to keep things more normalized right from the start, but thanks for pointed that out as you put that very well

(Defense) Again Mr. Boomer - how many lugs have you tightened with anti-seize?

(Mr. Boomer) somewhere in the hundreds of thousands

(Defense) Have you ever had an anti-seize related failure like a stud snapping either before or after it left the shop?

(Mr. Boomer) no I have not, but many dry ones have broke upon removal...

(defense) no further questions.

(mr. Boomer) knuck knuck knuck:p

(your honor) I will have order in this courtroom Mr. Boomer

(mr. Boomer) Yes Sir your immenseness :p

(your honor) guard grab that smartarss and escort him to my chambers

(mr. Boomer) nnnnyyyyaaaahaaah whoop whoop whoop whoop... wise guy ehh? uuuummpgh hey is a tazor really needed? ----- zap... oohmmmmpph

CarlByrns
04-23-2015, 06:12 PM
I'm quite prepared to believe that overtorque is the main reason for not specifying anti-seize, remembering that most wheels are installed with an air wrench, and carelessly at that. Whenever I get new tires on a car, one of the first things I do is to loosen and retighten all the lugs, and even dry they're usually over torqued to a point that would make roadside changes difficult if not impossible.

That's not a bad policy, but good shops either use a torque wrench or torque bars. A friend of mine owns a tire shop and his guys use torque bars on steel wheels, torque wrenches on alloy.

Willy
04-23-2015, 07:52 PM
Just for yucks I decided to enter the term "broken wheel stud (http://www.google.ca/search?q=broken+wheel+stud&num=30&newwindow=1&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=C1w5VcTcF4LxoATM6IDwAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1056&bih=674#imgrc=_)" into Google Images just to see what would show up. I'll be the first to admit even I was a little surprised to see the number of images that had that unmistakable tell tale sign of either copper or silver anti seize in pics of hubs with a broken stud or two.
I'll admit there are many reasons for a broken wheel stud, but even I find it surprising that on a random search like this that there are such a disproportionate number of images with what is obviously the silver tint of anti seize on this many wheel studs.

The first pic of the front hub of a truck I followed up on, and the owner stated that he religiously torqued the wheel down to the factory spec of 120 ft. lbs. and that the truck had never been abused. He did however state that he used a copper based anti seize, which of course is obvious from the pic. The other pics are also just as obvious. But click on my link above and judge for yourself why it is not an accepted practice.

I also realize of course that I am addressing a much more mechanically inclined group here than the great unwashed out there that doesn't take torque reduction into consideration when using anti seize on wheel studs, nuts and their respective seats, or other lubricated fasteners for that matter.
But after reviewing all of the expert recommendations not to use the product for this application and seeing the disproportionate number of photos of broken studs with anti seize on them I can certainly appreciate why.

Hey I love the stuff as much as the next guy, but I'll be the first to admit that in untrained hands it can cause more trouble than it solves.
All I'm advocating is that it be used responsibly. Remember that once it's on there you may not be there the next time your wife or daughter drops in at the Walmart tire store and buddy leans on the impact wrench a little too hard.

In post #36 of this thread I quoted an engineer from Loctite who summed it up best by saying...


Much time, thought, and effort is needed to design a proper bolted joint or threaded fastener assembly. It is, however, the person with the wrench who has the greatest influence over the success and overall reliability of this design.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/250willy/ry3D400_zpsbi9bqv1s.jpeg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/250willy/photo3_zpsezweovex.jpghttp://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/250willy/hqdefault_zpsyp0ftkvy.jpghttp://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/250willy/DSC03792_zpsx7zolyht.jpg

CarlByrns
04-23-2015, 10:06 PM
Willy, I'm no engineer and I don't pretend to be, but it looks like the stud failed while being unscrewed. Am I reading that correctly?

Willy
04-23-2015, 10:45 PM
Carl I'm certainly not one either nor do I profess to be metallurgist that specializes in wheel bolt forensics:). However I have seen a number of bolts/studs with failures much like the one above and all the signs have pointed to fatigue or an over torque situation. I could certainly suspect a stud failure scenario as you describe if the stud were severely corroded but the example above looks almost pristine in appearance.
The point however that I'm attempting to make is the large disproportionate number of anti seize laced studs, (always wanted to use that term in this context, LOL) in a random sample of broken wheel stud failures.

Oh here it is, another pick with a failure much like above.
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/failure4.htm

kendall
04-24-2015, 12:25 AM
I've broken a lot of lugs, normally when removing them. I have broken them while tightening the nut, and when removing it, but never broke one with anti seize on them.

vpt
04-24-2015, 07:42 AM
Carl I'm certainly not one either nor do I profess to be metallurgist that specializes in wheel bolt forensics:). However I have seen a number of bolts/studs with failures much like the one above and all the signs have pointed to fatigue or an over torque situation. I could certainly suspect a stud failure scenario as you describe if the stud were severely corroded but the example above looks almost pristine in appearance.
The point however that I'm attempting to make is the large disproportionate number of anti seize laced studs, (always wanted to use that term in this context, LOL) in a random sample of broken wheel stud failures.

Oh here it is, another pick with a failure much like above.
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/failure4.htm



I found the last pic interesting. I have never seen the "nut pointers" put on to point towards each other before. I have only ever seen them pointing all in one direction.

http://www.boltscience.com/images/wheelpointers.jpg

http://www.truck-drivers-money-saving-tips.com/image-files/lug-nut-torque-indicators-dsc01773.jpg

A.K. Boomer
04-24-2015, 11:43 AM
Willy I clicked on your broken wheel stud link and most examples I got are dry,

Now just like the pics you show that still does not prove "why"

My experience is that they are about the #1 abused fastener in the automobile and truck industry, and like allot of the guys on here are saying it's due to the almighty impact gun,

In that respect I will agree that if your doing the wrong thing in the first place and then "slathering" your lugs and seats with anti-seize and quickly zipping them up you have even greater chance of taking the stud way way way past its elastic springback stage,,, The foot pound torque rating on your average 1/2" drive get it gun can be 3 or even 4 times that of some car lugs factory recommended torque rating,,,
Yet anti-seize or not, I routinely see guys "stalling out" there guns, meaning they use them till the lug wont rotate anymore,,, there is so much failsafe built into the average lug rating, but not when up against that...


The shop I used to work at along time ago we would remove lugs with get it guns - if the wheel studs never had anti-seize we would apply, upon assembly we would use the get it gun about 1/8 throttle to center the wheel - and go back and do the torque pattern again just to be sure everything was seated and tight enough so the car could be let down, then go on to use the click style torque wrench after looking up specs,
You would be surprised at just babying the get it gun how close to torque specs you would be - you would get a feel for it after awhile, all's it usually would take is a mild tighten of the torque wrench... then the entire pattern would be repeated yet again,,, that's a total of 4 times for centering and initial cinch up and torque and double check torque...


to this day it is still how I do lugs, never ever lost one due to overtightening during or after,,, I also apply anti-seize to spark plug threads - I remember problems long ago with galling on them too and having to use inserts, on great occasion I still do but it's not from something iv ever worked on before,

The bottom line is this, if someone is doing it wrong in the first place then there's no use discussing the finer details of making the roads a safer place for all.

But in my opinion - and from all my experience over the past 4 decades of doing this with a perfect flawless track record I will make this statement,
if you are assembling lugs that are so dry they are actually "chirping" at you just by getting them started and threading them on by hand then you are being irresponsible in wheel changing methods,,,
for one it is an engineering fact that your torque ratio between torsional friction and tinsel loading of the bolt (and therefor axial loading of the wheel itself) has changed,,, you may be applying the same reading on your torque wrench - but less is actually going to do what it's supposed to do --- hold the wheel on,
this is very scary, for not only do you have quite a bit of safety le-way in the other direction, you choose the lesser route which is proven to be the #1 cause of stressing studs sideways till fatigue failure and due to the nature of this ALL studs go through the same amount of stress at the same time --- this is a lethal combination,,, for when just one or two "pop" all the others are readily right behind,,,

so it's not just irresponsible - "doing nothing" can be a downright deadly choice,

the other factor besides the absolute engineering guarantee of the binding of totally dry lug threads reducing all fasteners tinsel values --- galling may occur making matters even worse - then as iv stated before all your torque that your putting on can be fooling you as it's nothing more than torsional stress on the lug itself with zero cinch up... iv seen this effect just in loosening dry lugs - they will start to remove freely at first then an internal burr starts half way off - then it's all over as this loads the dry threads on the other side, that's a lug that's up against no tension, imagine what happens when installing one and when it bottoms and comes up against some actual resistance...

The fact is - is you have a huge safety net in one direction - and you can stay well within this realm by paying attention to detail and using just enough anti-seize to keep things from being bone dry,
Or you can try to guess how much the fastener is binding or galling and just hope that standard torque values your putting on it and therefor reduced tinsel values are enough to keep the wheel from starting to oscillate over bumps and such...

there really is a big difference - one is being absolutely sure of things, the other is keeping your fingers crossed,,,

In summary - This all is not some kinda "guess" on my part - it is an engineering fact that percentage values of torsional friction vs tinsel loading on fasteners change when they become dry/slightly corroded or have been used repetitively with no lubrication,
therefor keeping the fasteners closer to the condition of the test ratings bestowed upon them is paramount...

actually like in so many instances with ever changing variables - "doing nothing" of course will just make matters worse...



Anybody ever see that "red rust dust" on lugs? don't think it matters in a frictional sense?

think about this, if you have it on clutch disc splines it will not allow you to properly shift your transmission,,, even with clutch pedal depressed it causes the disc to cling to the flywheel side - even though there's plenty of clearance, it never wants to let go with the slightest offset load, it will eventually ruin your syncro's...
now imagine what it does under wheel lug tightening loads...

A.K. Boomer
04-24-2015, 12:09 PM
In a related wheel lug story allot like Bruto's double checking, I do not trust anyone putting on my wheels,

when I get tires put on Im always trying to watch and still get home and re-do.

well, a few years back i was watching, the kid used an impact gun without a torque tuner and on a 4 lug wheel just went clockwise around once! no double check no nothing - get home - two out of four could be removed by fingers,,,
and they of course were right next to each other ---- failure was a guarantee

I immediately called the place to talk to management -- the guy gets on and I explain the situation, he then asks me "was it" and proceeds to describe the kid to a tee,,,

I said yup that's the one.

he says well he's gone in about the next minute, he was already on a last warning....

considering the life death responsibility of the job I never really felt bad on that one... hate to be the one to get someone canned - generally,,, but in this case get him gone and if you can get away with planting a boot on his backside when doing it more power to you...

Willy
04-24-2015, 01:10 PM
My experience is that they are about the #1 abused fastener in the automobile and truck industry, and like allot of the guys on here are saying it's due to the almighty impact gun,



My point exactly, now throw anti seize into the equation as well.


The foot pound torque rating on your average 1/2" drive get it gun can be 3 or even 4 times that of some car lugs factory recommended torque rating

See above.


the other factor besides the absolute engineering guarantee of the binding of totally dry lug threads reducing all fasteners tinsel values --- galling may occur making matters even worse - then as iv stated before all your torque that your putting on can be fooling you as it's nothing more than torsional stress on the lug itself with zero cinch up


Right or not this is what the factory recommended torque values are based on, this is all part of the equation.
Clean dry threads, unless otherwise stated, debris wire brushed off of all mating surfaces.
Not a perfect world but can you imagine the logistics of having everyone using the same type of lubricant on wheel mounting hardware, all with an equal coefficient of friction. You and I can do that in our little world but lets face it, technically right or not for the sake of consistency clean dry threads is an easier goal to achieve globally. Hey I don't like galling any more than you do and I realize steel nuts do gall on steel wheels.


The fact is - is you have a huge safety net in one direction - and you can stay well within this realm by paying attention to detail and using just enough anti-seize to keep things from being bone dry

Considering the fact that friction between threads and seats can take up to 90% of the indicated torque reading that the OEM bases their figures on, that safety net now has some very very big holes in it unless allowances are made for it.
Do you trust Jethro at the tire shop to take this into account when your mama gets her tires rotated? This is exactly why the OEM's have errored on the side of caution and adhered to the K.I.S.S. principle.
Repeat out loud...we do not live in a perfect world.


In summary - This all is not some kinda "guess" on my part - it is an engineering fact that percentage values of torsional friction vs tinsel loading on fasteners change when they become dry/slightly corroded or have been used repetitively with no lubrication,
therefor keeping the fasteners closer to the condition of the test ratings bestowed upon them is paramount...



Like I stated, much easier to control in our own closely controlled world, not so easy "out there".


when I get tires put on I'm always trying to watch and still get home and re-do.


Thanks for emphasizing my point, I feel the same way.

A.K. Boomer
04-24-2015, 02:40 PM
Willy --- we differ on how to go about change for better, I prefer to nip things in the bud and go after the initial mistakes made,
not to take tried and proven preventative maintenance methods and eradicate them thereby creating problems on the other end of the spectrum and the inevitable dangerous outcomes from lower wheel cinch up's EVEN when people are trying to do other things right like use a torque wrench and such...

Actually should be illegal by heavy fine to put wheels on with just get it guns and no torque tuners in-between,

that's where the focus should be, and yes next up is to make sure your lugs are not so dry that they are binding/ galling because now that you have taken the initial step in the right direction for proper torque you better make damn sure you get all that precious 10% that's left of the initial torque value working for tinsel loading or you could find yourself in a world of hurt...


here's the magic formula that seems to elude so many --- first step and largest error of them all, use a torque wrench, and never use a get it gun alone...

second step, now that you finally have figured out the first step it is imperative that you make damn sure your lugs are not so dry they are binding,,,,,,,,,, there simply is no room for argument here, if you don't get it then go back and re-read... last time - if you are assembling wheels with lugs that are literally "chirping" at you just in starting them by hand YOU ARE DOING THINGS THE WRONG WAY, torque wrench or not...

Highpower
04-24-2015, 04:01 PM
Interesting thread to say the least. I am not at all surprised by all the discussion of using impact guns improperly when tightening lug nuts. What does surprise me is that will all the discussion of torque wrenches - I haven't seen a single mention about how torque wrenches are used improperly every day as well by a LOT of 'mechanics' out there that are required to use them.

Anti-sieze or not, impact gun or not, in the end when you have a tire monkey bouncing up and down with all his body weight to make the torque wrench click 4 or 5 times on every single lug nut to make sure they are 'tight'........ :rolleyes:

vpt
04-24-2015, 06:48 PM
I changed three different sets of wheels within the last couple days and not a drop of anti-sieze was used. They are all gonna die now. :)

A.K. Boomer
04-24-2015, 08:02 PM
It's all about a very calculated % trade off of just where your initial torque values are going,

and if people want to get picky i'll tell them where the real risk is,,,

anti-seize is kinda like brylcream --- little dab i'll do ya...

I am in agreement with you about the "slathering" --- again you just want to prevent galling not apply it like it's a grease for a running part...

There is no way in hell that's going to push anything over the edge, but dry binding studs absolutely can and in the other very high risk direction of lower wheel clamping forces... the needed 10% tinsel value can turn into 5% real fast...

bruto
04-25-2015, 09:34 AM
With regard to torque bars, I will just throw in that while some good garages use them correctly (I checked afterwards), some do not. If you put a torque bar on an impact wrench, turn the pressure up, and hammer away on it, you'll still have overtightened lugs.

I've found one does not need to be a super duper stickler about the last foot pound. I have a nice old crappy Wards beam torque wrench. The spec is for 80 pounds on most lugs. If I go somewhere between 80 and 100 my wheels are happy, I can change them later, and nothing ever goes wrong. When I'm testing, if the wrench goes over 100, I presume it's over tightened, loosen it and retorque it.

Remember to re-torque alloy wheels after about a hundred miles. Some will loosen even when done right the first time. The only alloy wheels I've had that were completely reliable were those on a Mercedes, which have steel inserts for the seats.

On the original problem, which is usually a corroded center, rather than lugs, a bit of cleaning and some anti-seize and it will usually come off fine even after a couple of Vermont winters. At worst it will require a good swift kick.

A.K. Boomer
04-26-2015, 11:32 AM
Iv never used a torque bar, but it stands to reason that with a more powerful gun and or higher pressure that they are going to put the lug on with a higher torque,

although better than nothing for sure im with you on them not being the correct way to go...

i have experienced similar results of a torque bar just in having to use a long impact extension and the gun not having any balls to pull a suspension fastener off, then figure out a way to get just the gun on with a deep well or something and ZIP -it's off in a second - so torque bars which have length and smaller diameter shanks do achieve great reduction and make sense to some degree, but just does not seem like an exact science to me due to the variables of what's powering it...

Bruto if your re-torquing any wheels after 100 miles then I do commend you, I believe you are taking things to an even greater level of safety ,
personally I do not do that, it not only would be a major inconvenience for many a customer as they live pretty far away to begin with, I have checked them when they randomly came back for other things and have been very satisfied with there being no real change in values.
This could be a different story for big rigs - for all I know it's mandatory, but,
I do not know of one shop or esp. tire places that re-schedules cars back in for re-torques, I just make sure they are not in a bind when tightening and like you lean to having a little more rather than less and have never had a problem, I also go through double torque patterns with each wheel - sometimes get a little extra that way as lugs right next to others seem to go a little further each time especially with a the massive thickness and axial rigidity of alloys...


In summary I will say this - I can appreciate the point Willys trying to make in the other direction, yes it is a concern but mostly if someone is doing things wrong in the first place, like using a get it gun, but I also will state this, I greatly "dislike" that one pic in his example - the one that looks like it's using some kind of copper anti-seize and you can tell so much of it that it literally "plowed" the excess into the void areas between the hub and wheel seats,,,
This is wrong, and even with just using a torque wrench will decrease the threads natural binding and put more towards tinsel loading,,, the goal here is to prevent dry binding,,, not literally "float" the entire length of the stud and wheel seats on a liquid sloppy mess,,,
it's common sense - try to keep things closer to the state when it was brand new and being tested, and a little le-way with more is ok, but that one pic is out of control in the other direction, and just in a hydraulic sense - if one gooped up a lug like that and then actually put a Zip gun on it all the threads would literally be floating in the stuff without much resistance - and god help you with tinsel loading,,, it is an example of two wrongs don't make a right.

all that being said, never ever lean towards less, and with dry binding galling studs and seats and using the proper method of tightening with a torque wrench this is exactly what happens, this can spell disaster esp. since the natural mechanical and engineering properties of tinsel loading NEVER tighten and always relax, you may very well have to use more force to get a lug off one day, but that is NEVER due to an increase in tinsel values and is ALWAYS due to an increase of thread binding,

this is why the direction you go on this is so critical - and which way you lean can be the difference between a wheel staying on with no doubts or one coming off and killing someone,
Did you know that even paint regulations on the inside of a steel wheel where it meets the hub requires no more than .003" thickness of paint when dried?
that's how critical it is to keep these values up, top that off with rotors being re-sandwiched and the slight dust or rust or not marked and assembled in a different area - or just normal resettling of all these components,,, you can see why starting off at lower values to begin with can be a lethal choice...

the very reason some very conscientious people like Bruto double check lugs is for the tinsel values, tinsel values always decrease - start out lower to begin with due to dry binding lugs is a far greater risk than someone trying to keep the lugs values closer to original... or I might add even slightly surpassing...

A.K. Boomer
04-26-2015, 03:41 PM
Incidentally --- your nice old crappy wards beam torque wrench is a great tool, actually hard to improve on not only in accuracy but simplicity and dependability,,,
they are "in your face" easy to calibrate if they ever go out of adjustment then just re-tweeking the indicator beam and making sure it's not dragging on the torque gauge plate in any way is all you have to do, then it's a done deal...
its the only tool I use for critical head bolts, connecting rod nuts and such,,,

the trouble with them with wheel lugs is they are slow and awkward to use and you have to get your head at sight level everytime,,,
yet the trouble with using the clicker type is they rely on mechanical components that move some and therefor behave differently after so many cycles from losing lubrication in critical area's or parts changing tolerance - yet so handy to use on lugs - 5 times faster and no need to read...
So most responsible mechanics take them in for re-calibration after so many months - some actually paying a fair amount of moneys and in some cases close to half of what the wrench is worth everytime and also having to wait...

all while having the quick answer right in their own tool boxes, the beam type torque wrench that they will grudgingly be using until their clicker style gets back,,,

here's what you do - if you have a tighter fitting american 12 point socket then by all means use it - I only have metric but can attest that a half way decent quality C. vanadium 15mm 12 point socket slapped on a 1/2" drive with the 12 point end will hold 80 ft lbs of torque, keep in mind this is not what a 12 point socket was designed for :p so - calibrate things at 50 or 60 ft pounds if you like...

Here's how you do it, and avoid ever having to pay good monies to have your cruder but useful for certain jobs click style torque wrench re-calibrated again...

adjust your click style TW to 50 or 60 ft pounds and put it on the bottom with square drive facing upwards, install a 1' 1/2" extension on the clickers square drive, then place a 15mm 12 point socket (or better as in tighter) on either the beam style TW square drive end or the extension end, whatever fits the 12 point part tighter as they may have different chamfers on the square drive ends - match both wrenches handle to handle - head to head, and plug in the remaining square drive.

you are basically putting one T.wrench up against the other...

now walk up to the corner of any wall, although plain drywall might get some indents - in that case put a piece of angle iron into the corner on the floor - 2' or 3' tall is all you need if you don't mind kneeling.

Now push one wrench against the other, with beam style in full view just pay attention to when the dial approaches the adjusted torque of the clicker,,, remember to keep both handle beams balanced in the middle of both wrenches as this can effect the accuracy of the test,

gradual bump up's and seeing it on the beams reading till you feel the click of the lower wrench, was the beams torque reading what you set the clicker at? if not adjust the calibration of the lower wrench till it matches it's own dial reading and also the beam wrenches verification...

This is a pretty accurate and very fast way of dialing in your clicker if you (or a friend) already have a beam style and it cost you nothing...

torque is torque - and you are losing nothing with the head's up against the wall just for bracing , no different than you having to brace a torque wrench head with one hand when having to use one with an extension for certain applications,
also - tightening is the mode for both wrenches - due to them opposing each other - so when you tighten the beam wrench on top - you will be testing the clicker in tightening mode :)

the reason for the extension in the use of calibration of the two is simply for support and to keep the two from rocking and also unit pressures down on each head...

Keep this in mind - after each click and reading let your beam wrench back to zero, verify that it comes back to rest there, only the main beam is tempered and the smaller indicator beam is not, it's meant to be able to bend some for adjustment and the abrupt action of the clicker could disrupt it... make sure it goes back to where it should for your next reading to be accurate...

flylo
04-26-2015, 05:31 PM
Bought a '46 Willys jeep CJ2A? I think 25 years ago for hunting camp. Blew an old dry rotted tire & worked 1/2 a day getting it off, finally getting a torch. Now short of lug nuts decided to borrow one off each other wheel. THAT'S when I learned one side had LH threads & the other RH. DUH :p
That old girl hadn't had grakes for 25 years when I got it & we had some wild rides down the Sturgeon River Gorge & I learned a second lesson NO sycranized tranny, when you shift into neutral no going back to 1st just enjoy the ride many times on 2 wheels, YeHah!

A.K. Boomer
04-26-2015, 06:48 PM
Flylo I have a toyota landcruncher fj 40 here right now, same situation, non-syncro'd first gear, and straight cut which makes it feel and sound like your driving an old school bus,,,

You can get it back into first on the fly, just double clutch, let it out in neutral - give the mainshaft a good match up rev then quickly push the clutch in and go for the gear,,,

this thing is a real he-mans vehicle --- takes physical energy just to drive it, front and rear leafs - rides like a brick, no power steering,
take it out to test it - get back to the house and im actually a little winded lol

bruto
04-27-2015, 12:01 AM
Quick addition to AK Boomer. I agree in principle on the beam wrench but my favorite torque wrench is an ancient AMMCO I got at a junkyard, where some garage had swept out a bunch of debris. I paid for that and some other stuff by the pound. For those unfamiliar with this, it's a beam wrench with a dial readout. The gauge must be reset for each bolt, but records and holds only the maximum torque you've applied. It may not be dead-nuts accurate (though I think it's pretty good) but it's easy to be consistent.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f38/25912d1283634523-ot-torque-wrenches-torque-wrench-1.jpg

A.K. Boomer
04-27-2015, 09:38 AM
geeze that thing could actually be worth some money nowadays,,,

im not absolutely positive but I think I might have gotten paddled by one of those from my elementary school principal.

Georgineer
04-27-2015, 05:05 PM
A.K.,

In #85 you refer to tinsel loading and tinsel values, neither of which is familiar to me. I've done an internet search, which tells me what I already know about Christmas decorations and headphone wires, but nothing about wheel nuts (or lug nuts, which I've just read up). I don't know if it's an American term (I presume you're in the USA), or a colloquial term, or something that has escaped my notice until now. Can you enlighten me please?

George

A.K. Boomer
04-27-2015, 05:30 PM
Oops shouda switched the i and e around and added another e at the end - i just kept doing it till spell check was happy.

thank you...

the correct word is tensile... (and sounds much better too)

Georgineer
04-27-2015, 05:33 PM
Ah, that's much clearer. Thanks!

George

CarlByrns
04-27-2015, 05:41 PM
A.K.,

In #85 you refer to tinsel loading and tinsel values, neither of which is familiar to me. I've done an internet search, which tells me what I already know about Christmas decorations and headphone wires, but nothing about wheel nuts (or lug nuts, which I've just read up). I don't know if it's an American term (I presume you're in the USA), or a colloquial term, or something that has escaped my notice until now. Can you enlighten me please?

George

"Tinsel" is how the word "tensile" is spelled at the Gunner Asch (Mark Wieber, proprietor) School of Engineering Type Stuff.

(This will be funny to former rec.crafts.metalworking newsgroup denizens)

bruto
04-27-2015, 06:05 PM
I kind of like "tinsel." It's what they make lug nuts out of these days.

tlfamm
04-29-2015, 06:05 PM
I once worked with a carpenter who labeled floor joists "Joyce's" - every time he uttered the word I had to bite my tongue to avoid correcting him: he knew full well the appropriate term, but had fallen into the habit of using the female name instead.

Now I have to suppress the urge to use "Joyce" myself ...