View Full Version : OT: Gas prices.

06-08-2004, 04:05 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-08-2004, 04:08 PM
My local gas station gets one delivery every 7 to 10 days. The price of that gas should be stable. It has gone up twice since the delivery. Whats wrong with this picture?


06-08-2004, 05:09 PM
JUst what the market will bear, like selling tomatoes and oranges. Also what you will put up with. When everyone starts selling them great big SUV's things may change a bit. I see them everywhere down here. I live in a working town. A mill town where there are millionaires and poor people. Poor people aspire to act like the rich ones, but when the kids don't have milk, I guess they park thier suv out front with a forsale sign on it.

If you want it and can afford it you will continue to buy it.

I hear Mexican gas down there is only about .50 a gallon, perhaps they can't afford any more then that. Is that fair?

Did you read the post on Enron in California, it is just not gasoline.. skinning the people for a buck.


06-08-2004, 05:15 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-08-2004, 05:40 PM
What sort of price are you paying over there?
Down here locally its around $1.10au alitre,I really don't want to think about what that is per gallon.

06-08-2004, 06:01 PM
This morning it was $2.12USD a gallon, or about $3.03AU/US gallon. Roughly $.75AU a litre (this is rough math, I just divided 4 quarts into $3.03au).

I think in Caracas, Venezuela they are paying something like $.14USD a gallon.

If the U.S. would demand repayment on loans and rescue mission costs from foreign governments whether in cash or oil, and then apply that to the economics of the countries who have been very generous to the people of the world over the last 100 years, petrol would be very cheap if under government price regulation. I believe that companies should make a profit, but many companies are greedy and stupid like Enron.


06-08-2004, 06:09 PM

06-08-2004, 06:41 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

Alistair Hosie
06-08-2004, 06:46 PM
Listen guys I heard today of filling stations charging in London £1.12 a litre. There are nearly five litres in a gallon that at current rate of dollar /pound will make gas here at approx $10 a gallon try that then like us, cry, cry, cry.Alistair

06-08-2004, 06:54 PM
I have cut back on my driving and hauling, it has now become cheaper to pay higher product prices at near by stores than to drive the extra ten minutes to the Walmarts.

Good thing HF is less than 5 minutes from my house.


06-08-2004, 09:22 PM
If you want cheap gas do two things


#2 Remove oil/fuel/energy from the futures market,simple as that.

Alistair Hosie
06-08-2004, 10:46 PM
And Darin reduce fuel duty currently here 77% http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gifAlistair

J Tiers
06-08-2004, 11:03 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alistair Hosie:
There are nearly five litres in a gallon that at current rate of dollar /pound will make gas here at approx $10 a gallon try that then like us, cry, cry, cry.Alistair</font>

Not so. There are a bit under 4 litres in a US gallon. A litre is ~2.2 pints, of which there are 8 per gallon (don't start...a pint of water is a pound +-).
So your price is about 4 of your pounds per gallon. I dunno how that translates today.

And, a very substantial portion of your price is pure tax. I read that when the equivalent UK price was about $4 per gallon, that only $1.15 of that was cost, the rest was tax. Our gas taxes are much lower, as low as 15 cents per gallon, depending on which state you are in.

Before going further, realize that I agree about the costs being very disconnected from reality. Either taxes, fears, greed, or whatever is driving costs. It ain't market factors only.

Ok then....

I don't find it that prohibitive. My vehicles get 25 to 30 mpg, highway. From the last couple years, this is about a 50% hike in what is a small portion of my costs.

For instance, I drive to work. If I care to walk 5 miles of that distance per day (out of the 15 total), and be forced to a rigid schedule, I can take public transit. If I need to leave late, I will be walking the whole 8 miles home (not..).

Transit will cost me directly $2.50. The gas costs about $1. The days I have passengers as well, the total savings goes up. (maintenance is not included, deliberately, I'd still have the vehicle).

If I take transit, I also cannot include any other errand on my trip home, which I commonly do. Any such errand would be either impossible (no bus to there), or would take another couple of hours. A side trip on the way takes 20 minutes and is easy.

Recent weekend travel to visit a relative, with tools and cargo, was 3/4 tank of gas each way, or about $30. As there was no other way to get there and back (outside a small town two states over) that isn't so bad.

Greyhound, if it went there (it does not), would have got us to town, with no way to finish the trip, and would have cost at least that. We would not have been able to haul any cargo, which would have rendered the trip futile and unnecessary to begin with. At that point, gas cost is secondary.

Anyhow, gas cost us $2 in the 60s, adjusted for inflation. Each dime then is a dollar now, and gas cost at least 20 to 25 cents per gallon. Do the math.

[This message has been edited by J Tiers (edited 06-08-2004).]

06-08-2004, 11:55 PM
The real cost of gas? 80% of gas in California and 100% of gas in Canada is locally obtained from local sources. The average cost to produce a barrel of oil in North America is six dollars. A barrel will yield up to 80% gasoline. Add refining, transportation and marketing plus retailer expenses and the actual cost per gallon is around 40 cents. The rest is taxes and PROFIT.

J Tiers
06-09-2004, 12:15 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
A barrel will yield up to 80% gasoline. Add refining, transportation and marketing plus retailer expenses and the actual cost per gallon is around 40 cents. The rest is taxes and PROFIT.</font>

Well, you have to "bribe" the refiner NOT to satisfy his requirements for diesel and other products, in order to get your 80% gasoline. Really, this means you have to outbid those customers.

And, many may not be aware that the US still EXPORTS quite a bit of oil.

To keep it here, or make mostly gasoline, you have to out-bid the folks who want to buy it as export, or make diesel, etc, etc.

As with ebay, this sometimes means that the "fools" who will pay the most set the going price. All prices float up to the aveage highest price anyone will pay.

Kinda like the "cheaper drugs in Canada" thing. They won't be cheaper if the demand is too great...but nobody here looks that far ahead.

06-09-2004, 12:25 AM

It doen't matter what you crack out of that barrel. If it competes with gasoline the ridiculous profit is still there.

Alistair Hosie
06-09-2004, 12:38 AM
in our uk gallon there is just under 5 litres 4.75 ish if a litre costs in London Highest price I have seen which is £1.12 that is say 4.75 x£1.12 IE £5.32 UK POUNDS NOT $4 US dollars which is not far from $10 us a gallon UK.even if the US gallon is slightly less this is much higher than you pay currently and has been for years in other words we dream of having gas as low priced as yours believe me,every day http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif Alistair

John Stevenson
06-09-2004, 05:10 AM
I'll grant you high fuel prices are a bitch but could you image it here if fuel was £1 a gallon?
Traffic is bad enough as it is, it would be a nightmare.
I feel the high price keeps some vehicles off the road.

Also it does have spin off's. That little trip to hospital even if it had been in the air ambulance didn't cost you a penny.
I saw the other day where IBEW paid $280 to get a finger stiched.

Last year my son had a total of 8 hours laser surgery on his eyes,
Cost ? Zilch, never even had to fill or sign a form. [ good job he couldn't see http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif ]
He's diabetic and none of his insulin or equipment, blood test strips, meters etc cost anything.

So it's not all one way.

There is anoher way to look at it, do you want cheap fuel and expensive machines or as we are now? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
Look on Ebay.com at shapers, then look at ebay.co.uk for the same.
A CNC Bridgeport like IBEWS that he paid $4,000 for, this week on ebay Uk for £450.

John S.

Mark Jones
06-09-2004, 06:54 AM
One uk gallon is 4.546 litres.
stuff the petrol.......convert to LPG
I did ......LPG only around 36p a litre :-)
other benefits on top of this are .
better for the enviroment.
less wearing on your engine
your oil does not turn black.
all the best......mark

06-09-2004, 08:12 AM
John and Alistair,both of you are right(how did that happen I don't know so don't blame me http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif)

Yes the British Isles are small,probibly explains the Mini,plus you guys got all those niffty trains and such,but think of all the money you would save if things British didn't leak http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Alistair,grab up a pitchfork and torch and storm the castle yourself if you want to jack those taxes down,we yanks would help,but everytime we try to free an oppressed people its nothing but,nag,nag,nag,nag,so do it yourself! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

06-09-2004, 08:19 AM
Second that one for LPG, did it 20 years ago. Current price in Toronto is 36 cents/Liter.

J Tiers
06-09-2004, 09:08 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:

It doen't matter what you crack out of that barrel. If it competes with gasoline the ridiculous profit is still there.</font>

Right, because to make diesel, you have to outbid the folks who want to make gasoline.

I said ebay was the model, and I meant it. Things selling for above retail.

I don't disagree on the profit, I am explaining the mechanism.

Oh, and one of the things we tossed with the tea was the imperial gallon. We don't use it in the US.

There are 1.2 US gallons in a british Imperial gallon. Almost a litre short, therefore.

Alistair Hosie
06-09-2004, 01:35 PM
John I agree we have a good health service and that petrol prices here keep down the traffic but I was just making the point to our dear American cousins that what they think is high is very very very very very low http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif compared with us here.Alistair

06-09-2004, 02:18 PM
When we lived in Venezuela from '93 - '96 gasoline cost $.13 per gallon. Bottled water cost more, literally. I believe it is now up to $.14 per gallon. The Venezuelan government subsidizes the local costs of gasoline from the profits it makes from petroleum exportation. When we lived in Mexico from 2000 - 2003, we paid approximately $2.25 per gallon. In Venezuela and Mexico the gas stations are state-owned. Now, when we lived in Athens, Greece, from 1991 - 1993, we were paying about $4.25 per gallon, most of that was taxes. I'm still paying less here in N.C. per gallon than I was in Mexico and Greece.

Rich Carlstedt
06-09-2004, 02:53 PM
I admire your intelligence, but you are way,way off on this issue
You said"
The real cost of gas? 80% of gas in California and 100% of gas in Canada is locally obtained from local sources. The average cost to produce a barrel of oil in North America is six dollars. A barrel will yield up to 80% gasoline. Add refining, transportation and marketing plus retailer expenses and the actual cost per gallon is around 40 cents. The rest is taxes and PROFIT. "

you sound like all the other envirionmentalists screaming about oil company profits..sure they make a profit..thats called "The Capitalist System"
This of course bothers liberals a great deal as they want a Government Regulated Economy.
No Way Man..
I think you know little about "oil" or you would not say that California uses 80 % of their own oil..California has NO "Light Sweet Crude" You need LSC to clean out the Cracking Plant due to EPA regulations
It is IMPOSSIBLE to get the yield you talk about

Then you do the old "Scare Tactics" of saying the oil companies make all profit.
Last time I looked, Rockafeller was dead and the oil companies were owned by shareholders like you, or Pension funds, or Union funds.
go do your research, and you will find Oil making about 7.3 cents per Gallon of gas.

you completely overlooked the cost of the crude, and the impact of Taxes..
here in Wisconsin , we pay over 50 cents a Gallon for Taxes. You have Fed,State,county, and Local, AND SALES TAXES. Heck, Sales tax alone adds 11 cents in most places.
I do not own oil stock, but I know when Exxon sold 187 Billion in sales, they made 8.7 Billion in profit....I know not many people would want a business with only a 5 1/2 % profit margin.....and they paid taxes on that as well !

Yes Oil is high, but mouth wash costs over 10 bucks a gallon and people buy water for 2 dollars a gallon...talk about a rip !

Look a a simple Economic truth...
RESTRICTED pricing means "Restricted Volume".
You think we have availability problems now? just regulate the price!
UNRESTRICTED PRICING and production, always yields the lowest consumer prices...Lets have more of that !

06-09-2004, 04:49 PM
I didn't say the profit is all going to the oil companies. You are jumping to conclusions. The fact is that if it costs six bucks to produce a barrel of oil and it is sold at $40 then someone is making over 600% profit. The Saudis produce oil for around $2 per barrel so that works out to 2000% percent profit. I find that extreme. I also am tired of the standard bull we are fed by the oil companies when they trot out the nice little pie chart that shows the profit accounting for only 3% of the price of gas. Total bull.

Average gas production in the United states from a barrel of oil is 47% with it sometimes going to around 67%. 80% is easily possible with the right crude. California average is 55%. The "Complex Refineries" in California can crack a barrel into as much as 95% light distillate products including gasoline.

Source is California Energy Commission.

California produces 707,000 barrels of crude per day (not including federal offshore), refines 2 million barrels per day and uses 1.7 million barrels per day. Source is US DOE.

There has been a change in supply since the 80% figure I quoted (from 2002). California get about 48% of it's oil from in state and another 22% from Alaska. About 30% is from other sources so about 70% can be considered "local".

California does have light sweet crude. The Hondo Sandstone grade from the fields off Santa Barbara is only .2% sulfur content and that's about as good as it gets.

I am not overlooking the cost of the crude. Crude doesn't cost $40 a barrel, it costs $6 or less. It sells for near $40. That is not the same as the cost since the oil companies don't buy all their crude from someone else now do they?

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 06-09-2004).]

J Tiers
06-09-2004, 05:26 PM
Remember the ebay model?

Well, the traders in futures are some of the guys making a rake (if it goes their way). They can run up the per-barrel cost, or let it down, depending on how much they think they can sell it for.

They don't drill, pump, refine, store, or even sell oil (at least at retail), but they make money off it. That is their right.

They buy the rights to oil at a fixed price for future delivery, betting on their being able to sell for more when it comes time to pay at the preset rate. If they are right, they make a lot. But the money they make raises your costs.

We have a chain here known as "QT" or "Quick Trip" here. They operate "convenience stores" that sell gas. They buy their gas on the "spot market" (immediate or short term delivery), and usually have the lowest pricing.
I think they try to buy "distressed" gas, gas which is in the wrong place, or the buyer canceled, etc.

Of course they also figure on gas getting you in the door, where you pay more for other stuff. That means their gas only needs not to lose money.

06-09-2004, 07:47 PM
Kalifornia's production rates just fell,they closed two more refineries last month,lets see where their prices go next.

There is a bill in the state legislature to finance and incourage refineries to move here,good for me http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Rich Carlstedt
06-09-2004, 09:02 PM
Sorry Evan, I don't agree with you.
Your argument is with the OIL producers, not the refiners..So why complain about the Oil Companies..you should be mad at the Arabs..
California oil is like tar
Arabian oil is LSC...you need it to make gasoline..BECAUSE of EPA requirements ( which I am not saying is necessarily bad !).
Talk to a Refinery Engineer and you will understand what I am saying

USA Today..reporting today..
"Wholesale gas is $1.201 a gallon."
now lets see
pay the Arabs 40 bucks for 42 gallons (called a barrel) so cost is about 95 cents/gal for crude.
Transport it to America $? (say a nickel)
Refine ? ( say a dime)
sell it on the market for $1.20 with a cost of (95=5=10) 1.10 and that gives a profit of .10 And you call that ripping you off ?
Now add 60 cents for taxes
add .08 cents for gas station profit (mandated in WI !)
and add distribution costs of say 15 cents and you have
1.20+60+.08+15= 2.03 per gallon

Also by USA Today...today
"because of inflation, gasoline would have to be 2.934 a Gallon to match the record of 1.417 set in March ,1981"

The way to drop the Arabs from the equation is to drill in Anwyr, or the Gulf, or even Kalifornia..but that is too easy..
You see the envirionmentists are feeding the Arabs

06-09-2004, 09:45 PM
Everytime auto sales flaten out for more than 2 years the price of oil goes up the production goes down. Once the consumers buy the smaller cars and perk up the sales market the flow of oil picks up and the price comes down, but not to the level prior to the shortage. This happened in the 70's and 80's skipped the 90's and now is rearing its ugly head again. Best yet we have zero control, isn't that just terrific. Uncrichie...

06-09-2004, 10:18 PM

The oil doesn't all come from the arabs.

06-10-2004, 12:45 AM
I really don't care what the reasons are for the current price of gas, I drive a well tuned Toyota Corolla: a great mileage car, I plan my trips out and the price of gas is just too darn high.

My driving is in the midwestern states, Ontario and Quebec. So I know what prices can be from state to state and between Canada and the U.S.

Why don't we have leaders with enough guts to say to the oil producers, Do You Want Our Business? Or better yet freeze prices for a month or two at cost plus small margin of profit.

I was going to buy a pickup truck this summer, nothing fancy, 2 wheel drive, automatic and 2/65 air conditioning (roll down your windows and go 65 mph (in Canada that is about 110Kph). At current gas prices they should give me the truck and let me take out a loan on the gas.

This is hurting my economy as well as many other people. So do I get to put a fuel surcharge on my work?


[This message has been edited by jfsmith (edited 06-10-2004).]

J Tiers
06-10-2004, 01:03 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jfsmith:
This is hurting my economy as well as many other people. So do I get to put a fuel surcharge on my work?
[This message has been edited by jfsmith (edited 06-10-2004).]</font>

Well, if you can, you should fit it in somewhere (mileage charge? I have done that...years ago). It's a cost, isn't it?

Your *profit* is your total income less your costs. Sounds like you are cutting your profit, which, as a one-man-band, is your actual personal income.

06-10-2004, 07:23 AM
Jeff,yes you do get to put a ser-charge on,ALL the frieght companies do it,so do the airlines,so does anybody who depends on transportation.In fact most sectors of the economy do,esspecially paper and timber producers,thats one factor in the cost of building materials going up.

No we should not ingage in socialist price fixing,getting the government involved only makes things worse,proven track record.

06-10-2004, 10:40 AM
I have to agree with wierd.

"If you want cheap gas do two things


#2 Remove oil/fuel/energy from the futures market,simple as that."

The supply of oil is not currently a problem. Demand for oil is met by the current production as evidenced by the lack of a shortage. That is, there aren't any gas stattions that have "sorry, no gas" signs out front.

The refinery capacity in the US has be declining since the early 80's, in spite of the continual, gradual, and highly predictable, growth in demand for gasoline and diesel fuel. This means that refineries were reduced in size or shut down completely!

Likewise the production of crude oil has been going up continually, gradually, and predicatably over the last few decades. Yet, the price of oil has gyrated wildly over that same period. Clearly detached from the actual consumption of oil and driven purely by spectualtion.

Therefore, if US refining capacity is increased, and the oil market regulated we could have reasonably priced gasoline for the forseeable future. The latter was sort of in effect with the $25/bbl price target that was in effect for a number of years. This price could be achieved today with everyone still making a decent profit. If the speculators go away.

06-10-2004, 11:36 AM
The numbers on US refining capacity can be misleading. Since 1982 refineries have been shut down. But, these have been old inefficient distillation plants with no downstream processing (cracking) capacity. Modern Complex Refineries can produce a much higher percentage of light volatile fractions from a barrel than the old distillation plants. According to the US DOE since 1982 the amount of oil going through the US refineries has increased from 12 million barrels per day to 15 million b/d. A decrease in the number of refineries does not equate to a decrease in capacity and especially it does not equate to a decrease in the capacity to produce diesel and gasoline.

Also, total refining capacity has been increasing since 1995 (most recent figures 2000)



06-11-2004, 06:33 PM
Evan - total crude oil refining has increase since 1980, however, total capacity has fallen since then.

In 1980 refining capacity was 17,988,000 bbl/day in 2001 is was 16,595,000 bbl/day. About an 8% decrease in capacity.

Utilization has increased though from 75.4% in 1980 to 92.6% in 2001. The latter number is the issue. Some folks think this is cutting the safety margin too close. If any single refinery goes offline then spot shortages, and resulting price spikes, could occur. Nonetheless, this level is about the historic utilization for the industry.

06-11-2004, 06:47 PM
Actual capacity is increasing since 1995. More important the ability to produce gasoline and diesel fuel is much greater than in 1980 do to new processes. The current capacity is able to easily keep up with the demand for light fuels and they only run at maximum light fuel capacity for about six to eight months of the year.

06-11-2004, 09:58 PM
Guess what happen since yesterday, the price of gas went down $.30US in my area. That may cause a damaging economic ripple in my area. Maybe I should go back to looking at trucks and vans.

With my luck is will go back up right after I buy a truck.


06-11-2004, 10:11 PM
See here-


J Tiers
06-14-2004, 09:00 AM
Gas pricing now seen here at $1.72 per gallon (US gallon http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif), and going lower every day.

06-14-2004, 09:13 AM
where's here?

06-14-2004, 10:24 AM
A little side bar to this discussion:

If we fill out all of the membership information as I think we are suppose to, asking where is here and other questions would be answered by just checking that information thru one of the icons about the message.

Now the real message:

I am in Columbus, Ohio and the gas prices were $1.71 a gallon yesterday afternoon in the north east part of town.


06-14-2004, 11:00 AM
The price hasn't dropped here at all. Still hovering just below $1.00 per litre. That works out to about $3 US per US gallon. The price here is 46% tax.

As an example of oil company rip-off pricing we pay pretty much the same price per litre of gas as the people in Vancouver. Vancouver and the surrounding area, known as the GVRD (Greater Vancouver Regional District) has an extra 9 cents per litre transit levy imposed on every litre of gas pumped. We don't have any such thing here and yet for some mysterious reason we pay the same price. The refinery is only 150 klics north from here so transportation cost is minimal. We are getting hosed and there doesn't seem to be much we can do. There is no competition between the various suppliers in this town, the price is fixed through an imformal agreement of the merchant's suppliers. We never have a price war and each station sets their price exactly the same. The business is totally corrupt and free enterprise does not exist.

I know one of the owner/operators and although he won't come right out and say it (price fixing) he tells me that he has no leeway as to pricing. It is set entirely by the head office of the oil company. If he were to change his price by as much as a tenth of a cent his gas delivery would suddenly be late.

06-14-2004, 11:15 AM
Found this article that purports that the rise in oil prices is due to currency volatility - that the dollar is falling. Claims that Europe and Japan have not seen corresponding price rises. Is this true?

www.techcentralstation.com/061404E.html (http://www.techcentralstation.com/061404E.html)

J Tiers
06-14-2004, 12:40 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bbfmetalworking:
where's here?</font>

I guess I am in St Louis, at least that is what my profile says. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif
Evan...that would suggest that your "real" gas price is the same to maybe a little less than ours, neglecting taxes.

You evidently pay about $1.62 US (without the tax), and we are paying about 10 cents more, complete with tax which is (was?) around 15 cents here.

The tax qualifies as "social engineering", probably. And with the sort of distances common in the US and Canada, it is a far different thing from the UK or Japan, etc.

Many places in the US which are not particularly remote are still 45 minutes drive from the nearest significant store (like TSC or Farm and Fleet).

That tends to make the typical "New York City environmentalist" seem a bit naive when they suggest "public transportation" as an alternative to private vehicles. Same with "ride sharing", etc.

Considering the western US, where 45 minutes drive is "right around the corner", that becomes sillier. But a substantial (like 40% to 70%) Federal gas tax would hit those areas disproportionately hard.

[This message has been edited by J Tiers (edited 06-14-2004).]

06-14-2004, 01:32 PM
The gas tax in Canada is a real sore point with a lot of people. The federal government labels it a "road tax" and it is supposed to be used for infrastrucure improvement. In actual fact only a tiny fraction is returned to the provinces with nearly all the tax being used for "general revenue". This has become a major issue in the current political campaign with the politicians falling all over themselves to promise to return 50% or more to the provinces.

The political system in this country is very badly broken and we are very likely to find ourselves in a predicament similar to the last US election, only worse.

It probably doesn't make the news in the US since the US media rarely report on happenings in Canada but our current government is struggling to try and overcome a scandal of huge proportions involving total corruption that likely goes right to the top and involves the giveaway of many millions of dollars to friends of the government with absolutely no accountability.

06-14-2004, 06:38 PM
And, that is only the tip of that completely corrupt iceburg. Goodbye Liberals, hello who knows who or what??????????????? on 6-28.

06-14-2004, 06:53 PM
I went trout fishing in the UP(upper penensula of Michigan)last wed. to sat. and the price went from $2.14 in 'Land-O-Lakes' Wisconsin on Wed. to $1.99 in Watersmeet on Sat.
haven't been out to get any since then.