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View Full Version : Did I do okay on this job????



outback
05-12-2015, 11:08 PM
Just curious what other shops would charge to do this job. A-2 strips 1/4 x 3/4 x 48", (47) 10-24 tapped holes,
(47) from the side, Blind 4-40 tapped holes, (47) .103 dia drilled holes, One Edge milled down to .125. Needs to be fairly accurate. These are feed rails for an automated assembly machine that may need replacement ever year or so.
They are not very robust in my opinion. The job may repeat

2 pieces made

Not including material cost, what would you expect to pay or be payed to make the parts? A special fixture was also made for holding the strips while center drilling and milling.

Excluding the fixture cost, I made these for $325 for each or $650 total for both. Is that to high, to low or about right? I'm just curious to know what the going rate would be for a job like this. Has anyone made something similar? I worked pretty hard on these.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/Drill%20jig/strips%20bench%20display.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jglass/media/Shop%20Demonstrations/Drill%20jig/strips%20bench%20display.jpg.html)

Below is a close up picture. Note the 4-40 tapped holes are from the edge and intersect the 10-24 tapped holes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/Drill%20jig/bench%20display%20close%20up.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jglass/media/Shop%20Demonstrations/Drill%20jig/bench%20display%20close%20up.jpg.html)

Thanks,
Jim

Doozer
05-12-2015, 11:38 PM
That is a lot of farting around.
I think you charged right.

-D

mickeyf
05-12-2015, 11:41 PM
I suspect that just as a machine that would cost thousands in one area would sell for scrap in another, the cost of any given job varies pretty widely regionally. If you're happy, and the buyer is happy, that's what matters.

outback
05-13-2015, 12:07 AM
I'm outside of Chicago. This was a time and material job and I want to be fair to the customer. There is 141 holes in each strip and 94 of them are tapped. Excluding the milled edge that figures out to be $2.30 per hole.

Here is what the fixture/jig looks like:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/Drill%20jig/drill%20jig%20over%20view.jpg

Another close up of the strip:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/Drill%20jig/Finished%20part.jpg

I need to charge the customer something for the fixture.
Jim

legendboy
05-13-2015, 12:08 AM
if you tapped the holes by hand I'd say you were working for free :D

outback
05-13-2015, 12:16 AM
Legendboy: I'm glad you mentioned that. I have an old drill press setup with a VFD and a foot switch for a spindle reverse. I also made a slip clutch tapping head for small taps particularly 4-40 taps. I made a video yesterday while tapping the A-2 strips.

Tapping the 4-40 holes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXgshFjNt2U

Jim

wierdscience
05-13-2015, 12:34 AM
$650 is 10 hrs and 50 minutes shop time at my day job.What it's worth though is entirely between you and your customer.

becksmachine
05-13-2015, 01:36 AM
Using the standard WAG bid system in place here at Beck's Machine Shop, your price is perfect.

This is based on the fact that you appear to have no serious injuries inflicted by an irate customer and you are not suffering from the debilitating effects of starvation. This would be a good definition of "proper pricing".

:)

Seriously, I am with Doozer on this, it seems that there was a rather large amount of time involved, especially for two pieces. I would suspect there was nearly as much time involved in making the jigs as making the parts? Will they be wanting any more parts in the future?

From my perspective, not only is it impossible to tell many factors it is impossible to tell what the parts may be worth to the customer. Delivery schedule, packaging, customers attitude, etc. all can/should effect delivered price. "Worked pretty hard" translates into how many hours for you?

I just came in this evening from repairing the hitch on a local farmers grain drill. If he doesn't get the seed in the ground at the proper time, he won't have much of a crop so he was very grateful that I could stop everything that I was doing and spend 3 hours making it possible for him to re-attach the implement to the tractor by repairing the broken hitch. Meaning it was very much worth it to him when I charge 1 1/2 times my standard shop rate of $60.00/hr.

Dave

jep24601
05-13-2015, 07:39 AM
I was having a client make some brackets for structural repair from 1/2" thick 8x4 angle. The shop wanted $8 per drilled 7/16" hole (for 3/8" bolts) but could punch 9/16" holes if I changed to 1/2" bolts for $2 each. So much depends on the shop's setup.

Rosco-P
05-13-2015, 08:07 AM
Considering that one oops on any of the tapped holes could scrap the job, maybe too low. Need to recover, without saying as much, some of the cost of the fixture as well. What if the job isn't a repeat?

Lew Hartswick
05-13-2015, 08:40 AM
Legendboy: I'm glad you mentioned that. I have an old drill press setup with a VFD and a foot switch for a spindle reverse. I also made a slip clutch tapping head for small taps particularly 4-40 taps. I made a video yesterday while tapping the A-2 strips.

Tapping the 4-40 holes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXgshFjNt2U

Jim I sure don't like to se the vise lifting like that at the end of the retraction. Looks like a good way to break a tap.
...lew...

Rustybolt
05-13-2015, 08:45 AM
Sounds about right, Outback.
Remember. There is always someone that will do it for less. There isn't always someone that will do it right.

DR
05-13-2015, 10:16 AM
Cost IMO would be highly dependent on the tolerances on hole location and milling, etc.

As someone else mentioned the vise lifting as the tap is leaving the hole is asking for problems.

A.K. Boomer
05-13-2015, 11:33 AM
I suspect that just as a machine that would cost thousands in one area would sell for scrap in another, the cost of any given job varies pretty widely regionally. If you're happy, and the buyer is happy, that's what matters.


Yup - just depends,
My main concern is trying not to "surprise" the customer unless it's less than I quoted,
and in fact I will about work for free before I do that unless un-for-see-ables enter into the equation - then it's usually always discussed before making another move,

so - did you pre-quote the job and end up sticking to it? was there at least a ball park est. before hand as a rough guide?

if so there should be no problems with how the customers feeling about it, that really is job one and in my opinion it's the worker that has to either enjoy the windfall when it comes around and everything goes nice or pick up the slack a little when it don't - If you find that your consistently getting burned then you obviously don't have the hang of giving out a good solid estimate yet...

on the flip side - if you find that all's your doing is sitting on your hands all day long then there's a good chance you think way to highly of yourself and work and need to re-evaluate things a little so you can actually get back into reality and be important to people again...

outback
05-13-2015, 12:28 PM
This job was not quoted which is part of the problem. The customer is not dumb, they know about what this stuff should cost so I need to be inside the ball part. Some guy at "Practical Machinist" said he could make these strips of A-2 for $100 each not including
material. That comment got me worried about my cost. I told the guy next time I would gladly send him the job if it ever came back. But, his PM box is so full my PM never launched. I think he anther BS'er.

If I would have quoted the job I probably would have figure $5/tapped hole. In thick material and larger tap sizes, $8/hole comes it
real close.

Thanks much for all the replies
Jim

Rosco-P
05-13-2015, 12:38 PM
Some guy at "Practical Machinist" said he could make these strips of A-2 for $100 each not including material.
Jim

Would there be a large amount of time saved running these one-off parts on a CNC machining center? Even on a machine equipped with a tool changer and tweaking an existing program, would it cut production time by two thirds?

DR
05-13-2015, 12:57 PM
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....

If I would have quoted the job I probably would have figure $5/tapped hole. In thick material and larger tap sizes, $8/hole comes it
real close.

Thanks much for all the replies
Jim

Where on earth do you get $5/tapped hole?

The only part of this job I see being at all difficult is the milling. How did you do that, assuming you don't have a mill with 48 inch travel.

TBN
05-13-2015, 12:58 PM
As others have stated there are many variables, but I think $650 for the pair is a fair price. Maybe a tad low if anything.

2ManyHobbies
05-13-2015, 02:26 PM
My only question about it being a repeat job:
Does $650 cover the reversing tapping head for the next time? :p

Regarding $5 per tapped hole, my hand is already starting to cramp thinking about it, and I'd lose money in tap breakage. I'd need a machine to do it.

Regarding somebody else saying $100? That may be possible in quantity, but in pairs? For 141 holes, 47 tapped though, 47 tapped blind? That's 235 spindle cycles each! I guess if the setup and stop for relocation were absolutely free on a machine than can handle > 48", then it might be possible, but I'm not even sure that would cover machine time.

Paul Alciatore
05-13-2015, 04:49 PM
I did a bunch of 1/4" X 1" X 6' copper ground bars once, 10-32 holes every four inches plus a larger one at the end. I did a couple with a battery powered drill: dip drill in Tap Magic and run it in. Flip to reverse and back out. Pass it over a brush while still running to remove chips. Repeat. Move bar in vise after several holes.

When I needed several dozen, I managed to talk the boss into a tapping head for the drill press. It went even faster and with less chance of breakage. Just up and down and brush on some Tap Magic. I fastened the vise down and left the jaws a bit loose so I could slide the bar along. With the reverse feature of the tapping head, there was no tendency to pick up the bar.

I did have the advantage of being both machinist and customer so I could forget about mistakes if they weren't too bad.

And yes, your price does sound good.

outback
05-13-2015, 04:51 PM
"The only part of this job I see being at all difficult is the milling. How did you do that, assuming you don't have a mill with 48 inch travel?"

I used the 10-24 tapped holes and screwed the strip (from the bottom) to my fixture. Only 1/8" of thread engagement, a screw every 3". I had to move the strip one time to cut from end to end. The fixture was doweled to the mill table. I had to remove the fixture each time, take to a work station with a riser to move the strip, then set the fixture back on the mill table for the next cut. With the strip removed I was able to check the milled 1/8" thickness. Like someone already said, "looks like a lot of farting around". It was, but the milling operation went fairly well. My JET mill has 20-22" of travel, 24" in a pinch.

Here is what the milling operation looked like. Notice the guide rail to keep things straight. The cutter turning clockwise forced the
strip against the guide rail, the screws held it down:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/Drill%20jig/Last%20operation.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jglass/media/Shop%20Demonstrations/Drill%20jig/Last%20operation.jpg.html)

"Where on earth do you get $5/tapped hole?" For larger tap sizes and counterbored holes(1/4" to 1/2") in steel up to 3/4" thick
I figure $8 per hole. Try it, it usually works out. A bunch of holes may cost less. I guess $5/tapped hole could be a stretch but with the fixture figured in it might be close.

The tapping head performed as designed. After tapping 75 of the 94, 4-40 holes the slip chuck began slipping. I replaced the
4-40 tap with a new one and tapped the remaining holes. I was tempted to tighten up the clutch but decided take the warning and replace the tap.

Needless to say, I lost some sleep over this job.

Jim

Bob Fisher
05-13-2015, 05:50 PM
There are three basic rules in quoting a job. Price, Quality, and delivery. Pick two! Bob.

gzig5
05-13-2015, 06:11 PM
I know that my company has paid more, for far less work, so I'd say you are in the ballpark on the price. You said it was a time and material job, you have to charge for the time you put in. If someone can do it cheaper because of CNC or magic wand, the customer should take the job there if the cost is the gating factor.

Do you have plans for the tapping head? I'm guessing it sort of works like the drag system of a spinning reel?? I didn't hear any clicking of a dog ratcheting out.

TN Pat
05-13-2015, 07:15 PM
That's 16.25 hours' labor at the shop I work at... and that's for CNC and manual machines, not just some dope in his garage...

I don't see why you'd charge per hole, all I've ever heard is charging by time on the job.

Certainly, if one had something like a Haas VF-4 - 50 inches of travel - this would be an easy job. You're talking about 3 seconds' chip-to-chip tool changes, tapping at 500+ RPM. Much higher milling speed. Main thing is the criticality of the part thickness, finish, etc..

Having done that on a manual machine, I'd say you did all right, but you gotta rationalize it in $/hr. I'd say you turned a profit if you looked at it at $40/hr, 16 hours for that job is pretty good.

Edit: When I say "some dope in his garage", please don't think I mean you! Poor wording on my part. That is some good quality work you did.

Rich Carlstedt
05-13-2015, 08:54 PM
If you feel you did good, then you did.
I feel it is a fair price, however , who ever picked 10-24 must be an electrician ?
10-24 and 1/4-20 are absolutely the worst threads for tapping of all threads !
They have the highest ratio of threading surface to tap root diameter
You didn't mention broken taps, but it would not surprise me if you tried 70 % threaded holes in A-1 on the 10-24's
10-32 is far superior for longevity.
For me, I would charge an extra 50 bucks per strip due to the poor thread choice for repeat work

Rich

Mike Nash
05-13-2015, 10:32 PM
On the 10-24 vs 10-32, there is the benefit of getting 4 screws installed for the same number of turns as 3 of the 10-32's. And 33% fewer turns of the taps in and out. Does that translate to less tap wear?

outback
05-13-2015, 10:44 PM
I center drilled, drilled, tapped and milled the offset in 13 hours, that's for 2 pieces. My shop rate is $50/hr, so that comes out to
$325 each. After I got the fixture made the job went pretty smooth.

I know what you mean about the 10-24 threads. I checked the print 5 times to be sure that is what they wanted. Could be the
10-24 holes are for 1/4" stripper bolts. 10-24 is a good thread choice in aluminum. Personally, my choice is always 10-32.

"Do I have plans for the tapping head??" The slip clutch works just like an automotive clutch system where there is a clutch disk
and pressure plate. The pressure plate is spring loaded. Compress the springs to increase drag. The whole thing is full of oil to avoid galling. I have a dozen or more items in my shop that I created thinking I could market them some day. So far I have never tried to market anything. My passion is making the stuff not selling it.

Here is another tapping device used for small taps in a lathe. This is a must have for anyone that does 10-32 or smaller tapping in a lathe. I made because I needed to tap 1-72 threads in a lathe. Works really slick. Never tried to market it. Last week I made a miniature version of the "Floating chuck for tapping". My fingers have full control over the tap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbPbsZ1Eha4

Jim