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Chris165
07-05-2015, 08:57 AM
The seller of the K&T I'm going to pick up in two weeks has some other small machines that I haven't been able to find much about them by doing a Google or forum search.

#1 Atlas surface grinder
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/351c122a0da60278789c5880e25bbc84.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/7d947f4aec725f37320e2716137701f3.jpg

#2 Kent-Owens horizontal mill
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/e9235a291fb0b21c1013e0990e28f0a6.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/2aa2ef93c506e5f2bbaadb5c50d670db.jpg

Are these machines worth picking up? The price is about 1/5th of what they weigh so I was thinking since they were fairly small and simple it might be a nice basic restoration project. The little horizontals would come in handy for putting slots in some parts I'm going to make on my turret lathe so I can "technically" justify them.

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Chris165
07-05-2015, 08:58 AM
Here is #3 because the pics would not fit
U.S. Machine Tool slotting mill

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/87c35a7d439c0cad71de8e47015aaa78.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/aded2429643c9931a5d8a5b189ad265a.jpg

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EddyCurr
07-05-2015, 09:07 AM
Are these machines worth picking up?Yes.

Absolutely.

Hurry.

.

EddyCurr
07-05-2015, 09:10 AM
That floor-standing drill press in the background looks
interesting, too.

.

Chris165
07-05-2015, 09:11 AM
That floor-standing drill press in the background looks
interesting, too.

.
I didn't even notice that sitting there.

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Seastar
07-05-2015, 09:12 AM
I'll take them if you don't.
Bill

1-800miner
07-05-2015, 09:14 AM
I had no idea that Atlas made a surface grinder. I want it just for the novelty.

Chris165
07-05-2015, 09:30 AM
I'll take them if you don't.
Bill
Will post here if they don't come home so everyone interested can have an opportunity to pick them up. Going there in two weeks (so don't think about grabbing them before me[emoji35] [emoji1])

I had no idea that Atlas made a surface grinder. I want it just for the novelty.
I didn't either, would look cool next to my atlas mill.

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EddyCurr
07-05-2015, 09:33 AM
I didn't even notice that sitting there.That floor-standing drill press in the background looks
interesting, too.I think it might be a Delta Rockwell.

We had floor and bench model Deltas, they might have been 17".
It has been a long time since I thought about them and the details
are not springing to mind right away, but they were nice machines.

.

JCHannum
07-05-2015, 09:35 AM
That is not an Atlas machine, it is a Rockwell Toolmaker tool & cutter grinder.

It is the early model with the cast base. It is a good machine and well worth grabbing. It can serve as a surface grinder as well as a T&C ginder. You would do well to look around for the T&C attachments, they can be worth more than the machine.

EddyCurr
07-05-2015, 09:40 AM
would look cool next to my atlas mill.A compact surface grinder is a VERY useful machine to own.
There is a bit of a learning curve to reach an understanding about
wheel selection, dressing and so on, but it is much simpler with
the vast info now.

Ask whether there are any grinding wheels. Look around for one or
more dressing tools. These will have a diamond tip - there is certain
to have been a fixed version that mounted on the mag chuck and
there may also be a radius/profile cutting version with a head that
swings the diamond.

.

Chris165
07-05-2015, 09:44 AM
I think it might be a Delta Rockwell.

We had floor and bench model Deltas, they might have been 17".
It has been a long time since I thought about them and the details
are not springing to mind right away, but they were nice machines.

.

Will see if that one is still for sale. I have a Clausing & old Craftsman plus my newly acquired 3'x8" Summit radial so the drill press dept is pretty much fully staffed.


That is not an Atlas machine, it is a Rockwell Toolmaker tool & cutter grinder.

It is the early model with the cast base. It is a good machine and well worth grabbing. It can serve as a surface grinder as well as a T&C ginder. You would do well to look around for the T&C attachments, they can be worth more than the machine.

That explains why there wasn't anything on it. Seller said Atlas so that's what I was looking for. It would serve me well for making lathe and shaper tool bits. Will ask him about any attachments that might be with it.

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Chris165
07-05-2015, 09:49 AM
A compact surface grinder is a VERY useful machine to own.
There is a bit of a learning curve to reach an understanding about
wheel selection, dressing and so on, but it is much simpler with
the vast info now.

Ask whether there are any grinding wheels. Look around for one or
more dressing tools. These will have a diamond tip - there is certain
to have been a fixed version that mounted on the mag chuck and
there may also be a radius/profile cutting version with a head that
swings the diamond.

.

Going to admit a surface grinder is one tool that I've never used. My boss did pick up this little contraption with a machine deal. Mighty Comet mill converted into a grinder.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/99431dc8e3f0ccf961d19808de73aebf.jpg

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EddyCurr
07-05-2015, 09:59 AM
A consideration about a surface grinder is that, by nature,
it releases abrasives.

Separation from the other equipment is desirable - preferably
located in a 'dirty' room or building. By distance, if necessary to
house in the same room and accompanied by machine covers for
the adjacent equip and good shop hygiene.

.

EddyCurr
07-05-2015, 10:05 AM
Mighty Comet mill converted into a grinder.Hmmm. First impressions of the adapted Might Comet are not
favorable.

Guess if it did the job asked of it and made money, then the
modification served the purpose.

.

Chris165
07-05-2015, 10:10 AM
Believe it or not the previous owner used it to grind quartz and graphite for scientific instruments. It was included in a bundle with my radial drill and a 36" DoAll Zephyr friction bandsaw. Thought about installing a regular head on it depending on the condition of everything under the table.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/60597cf40dfa5b7aeafb4214fbea3e8a.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/9d93df1d5ce86bd1e17a9160aee956a9.jpg

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Chris165
07-05-2015, 10:12 AM
A consideration about a surface grinder is that, by nature,
it releases abrasives.

Separation from the other equipment is desirable - preferably
located in a 'dirty' room or building. By distance, if necessary to
house in the same room and accompanied by machine covers for
the adjacent equip and good shop hygiene.

.
Will leave it in my welding/fab area divided by welding curtains from theachine area. Unfortunately I don't have a clean room or wall between the two, just big fans to blow dust and smoke out the door.

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EddyCurr
07-05-2015, 10:14 AM
I think it might be a Delta Rockwell.

We had floor and bench model Deltas, they might have been 17".
It has been a long time since I thought about them and the details
are not springing to mind right away, but they were nice machines.Will see if that one is still for sale. I have a Clausing & old Craftsman,
plus my newly acquired 3'x8" Summit radial - so the drill press dept
is pretty much fully staffed.Yes, sounds like you have some choices when it is
necessary to make a hole.

As much as can be determined from the photo, the
table on the press looks to be undamaged from errant
drilling.

If the price is right, take it too. It will not be hard to
fit on the truck and if it doesn't usurp position of one
of your existing machines, you are unlikely to have
trouble finding a happy new owner for it.

.

EddyCurr
07-05-2015, 10:30 AM
That is not an Atlas machine, it is a Rockwell Toolmaker tool & cutter grinder.

You would do well to look around for the T&C attachments, they can be
worth more than the machine.Yes. I second this.

As an example of what to watch for, here is one link to
a Delta (Rockwell) Tool Grinder .pdf (http://www.mwdropbox.com/Dropbox/DeltaToolGrinderCatlg5-7-pdf.pdf) showing head & tail
stocks, swivel positioning fixtures and so on ...

.

Optics Curmudgeon
07-05-2015, 11:38 AM
A consideration about a surface grinder is that, by nature,
it releases abrasives.

Separation from the other equipment is desirable - preferably
located in a 'dirty' room or building. By distance, if necessary to
house in the same room and accompanied by machine covers for
the adjacent equip and good shop hygiene.

.

Quick, tell everyone that runs a toolroom, everywhere. They may not know this and have been doing it wrong for years.

Back to the machines, the Kent-Owens looks like a hydraulic production machine, possibly convertible to manual. The other horizontal is a rack and pinion "stick mill", also mainly for production but may also have a lead screw hiding. Both go for surprisingly high prices. The surface grinder is the nicest of the lot, aside from its nefarious plan to destroy the rest of your shop....

EddyCurr
07-05-2015, 11:56 AM
Quick, tell everyone that runs a toolroom, everywhere.
They may not know this and have been doing it wrong for years.My comment was directed to the 23 yo OP.

You know, the one that posted above that a surface grinder
is one machine he has not operated.

Happy 5th of July to you, too ...

.

Chris165
07-05-2015, 07:19 PM
Quick, tell everyone that runs a toolroom, everywhere. They may not know this and have been doing it wrong for years.

Back to the machines, the Kent-Owens looks like a hydraulic production machine, possibly convertible to manual. The other horizontal is a rack and pinion "stick mill", also mainly for production but may also have a lead screw hiding. Both go for surprisingly high prices. The surface grinder is the nicest of the lot, aside from its nefarious plan to destroy the rest of your shop....

I called him and said I'll take the grinder. Have to ensure my boss can take he truck down there and confirm pick up date with the owner, also going to tell him I want the two mills. These two machines are so cheap I couldn't buy the motor for the asking price.

A hydraulic mill sounds like a cool restoration project and learning experience all in one. I have a need every now and then to make some split bushings so in theory I could turn the bushings on my turret lathe, clamp them in the mill to cut the slot and push go?

thaiguzzi
07-06-2015, 01:36 AM
Yes.

Absolutely.

Hurry.

.

What he said, but in CAPITAL LETTTERS !!!

Chris165
07-06-2015, 05:50 AM
What he said, but in CAPITAL LETTTERS !!!
I have never heard of either manufacturer so thats really cool they were small machines but designed for a production environment. Definitely going to bring them back.

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projectnut
07-06-2015, 08:58 AM
I've had a US Machine Tools #1 mill for many years. Granted it was originally introduced for production, but it certainly can do more than cut slots. It has a rise and fall head which gives it a huge work envelope as far as height is concerned. The #1 machine was the smallest horizontal miller made by US machine tools. It's built mainly from off the shelf parts and can easily be disassembled for repair or restoration. The one I bought spent the first 30+ years in a repair/prototype machine shop. When it was retired it was purchased by one of the retired design engineers to make parts for his violin, and cello business. After another 10 years in his shop I purchased it and put it back to work cutting metal.

US Machine Tools was bought out by the Burke Machine Tool Company many years ago. There is a Yahoo group dedicated to the Burke and US Machine Tools Machines. They have a vast array of knowledge about the machines and would be more than willing to furnish any information you need about the machine.

As for the Delta surface grinder I looked for one for several years before I gave up and purchased a Sanford MG machine. I was interested in the Delta machine mainly because the head can be moved in any direction. That feature is also a double edged sword. It takes a little more time to set up correctly, and the penalty for not doing so could be ruining your part.

While any grinder will produce abrasive dust a good vacuum system and proper placement in the room will be all the precautions you'll need to keep things clean. I worked I a large open shop that had 12 surface grinders of different brands and configurations. Right across the aisle were a dozen Bridgeport's and another aisle over were a couple dozen lathes and machining centers. There was never a problem with dust or contamination.

The surface grinder in my shop sits 6 feet from a Bridgeport on one side and 4 feet from a 10" x 60" lathe on the other side. Again with a good vacuum system and use of coolant on large jobs there's never been a problem.

justanengineer
07-06-2015, 09:26 AM
JMO but it depends on how cheap is cheap, the condition of the machines, and if youve got the room. None of them are expensive or valuable by any means, the Delta Toolmaker in nice, restored shape with most of the attachments might be worth $4-500. Nasty, needing work, as a machine-only deal its $1-300 hobby machine in the machine desert on craigs/ebay (nvm auctions up here in the NE) and not something youll see in a pro shop, a PITA to use compared to other machines. The production mills are worth ~$100-200 depending on the condition and attachments vs bare-bones machine, and are a dime-a-dozen common.

kf2qd
07-06-2015, 11:50 AM
All those machines would be worth the money. A small horizontal is many times more rigid than a vertical and can be extremely useful. The surface grinder might be a little light weight but you are not going to be roughing with it so it would be great machine.

projectnut
07-06-2015, 03:14 PM
JMO but it depends on how cheap is cheap, the condition of the machines, and if youve got the room. None of them are expensive or valuable by any means, the Delta Toolmaker in nice, restored shape with most of the attachments might be worth $4-500. Nasty, needing work, as a machine-only deal its $1-300 hobby machine in the machine desert on craigs/ebay (nvm auctions up here in the NE) and not something youll see in a pro shop, a PITA to use compared to other machines. The production mills are worth ~$100-200 depending on the condition and attachments vs bare-bones machine, and are a dime-a-dozen common.

I think you're vastly under estimating the value of these machines. There are several Delta grinders currently on e bay. They're all "buy it now" sales. The cheapest is currently asking $400.00, while the most expensive is asking over $2,200.00. They regularly go for between $600.00 and $800.00 if in good condition here in Wisconsin. They were never meant to be a production machine. Rather their niche is the small repair/prototype shop.

The US Machine Tools mill on the other hand was originally a production machine introduced just prior to WWII. They are simple to setup and operate and can take beating. If you can find them they usually go for around $500.00 to $800.00 in good condition. The prices I'm quoting are current asking prices here in the rust belt where hundreds of them were used in production, repair and prototype operations.

There was a time when either of the machines would sell for less than scrap prices. Those days are long gone. They're now being bought up by the small one and two man shops and hobbyists. Machines I could buy for $100.00 to $300.00 five years ago are now commanding $500.00 to $1,000.00. It seems all the manual machines have more than doubled in price recently. I'm not sure if the hobbyists have more disposable income, or the small shops are looking for inexpensive equipment that can still do the job rather than investing thousands in new equipment.

Both my US Machine Tools mill and surface grinder get used on an intermittent basis. I may get a job that requires either or both to be used 40 hours a week. Then they might sit idle for a week or more. It's a lot cheaper to have them sitting unused for a week or so than it is to be making payments on a new machine that would get the same type of use.

JohnMartin
07-06-2015, 07:03 PM
I think you're vastly under estimating the value of these machines. There are several Delta grinders currently on e bay. They're all "buy it now" sales. The cheapest is currently asking $400.00, while the most expensive is asking over $2,200.00. They regularly go for between $600.00 and $800.00 if in good condition here in Wisconsin. They were never meant to be a production machine. Rather their niche is the small repair/prototype shop.


Agree those prices were too low. With these grinders, as with most other machine tools, it really depends on condition and what comes with it.

For the basic grinder in decent shape and with a manual mag chuck, $400 to $600 seems reasonable. AK, HI and other machine tool deserts will be more.

But there are a whole bunch of accessories for that grinder, as it is much more than just a surface grinder. Univise would be worth $100 or so, Unihead could be double that. Swivel table with centers could be $250 plus. Optional wheel guards are not just to guard the different wheels, but provide mounting points for tooth supports. A few of those, with some spring tooth supports, at least another $150. If you want to use diamond wheels you probably want extra arbors so you don't have to dress the wheels constantly. While there are plenty of arbors on eBay for $50 or less, most of them are 1" ID at the big end, whereas the Delta and Rockwell machines take 7/8". IIRC, new ones from Sopko were well over $100 the last time I looked.

The accessories I mentioned are pretty much specific to the Delta/Rockwell machines, and they're not easy to find. You'll also need some generic items, such as grinding vises, diamond dressers, an angle and radius dresser, magnetic parallels, v blocks, etc. And extra wheels.

So, it all depends on what you want to do with it. If it's just flat surface grinding, you don't need many of the accessories. But the real advantage of the Toolmaker grinder is that you can do T&C jobs with it as well as surface grinding, and for those you need the extras.

Chris165
07-06-2015, 07:25 PM
Contacted the seller today and he had a Chevalier surface grinder which is sold and the U.S. Machine Tool mill is on hold but if I get there and it was not picked up it's mine. The Kent-Owens mill & Rockwell grinder are mine now, also got that 3ph drill press. He has a Bridgeport hydraulic copy head mill for sale but that is something I don't have the room for.

Chris165
07-06-2015, 07:46 PM
The K&T fully tooled was $500
Kent-Owens mill $100
Rockwell grinder $100
Drill press (unknown mfg) $25

Owner is getting them ready to move out and load on the trailer.[emoji1]

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kf2qd
07-06-2015, 09:49 PM
I think that deserves a YOU SUCK!!!!! (and once again jealousy rears its ugly head...)

justanengineer
07-06-2015, 10:26 PM
I think you're vastly under estimating the value of these machines.

To each their own opinion. JMO, but ebay is a multiple of reality as is craigs. Even on craigs, the Toolmakers usually have an asking price ~$300 in pretty decent shape within a half day's drive of Chicago in most any direction. I wasnt implying theyre production machines by any means nor do I think theyre geared toward the small 1-2 man shop, they were marketed toward hobbyists and part-time shops, similar to the Foley Belsaw equipment of yesteryear - too much of a PITA to setup to make good money but not bad quality. I looked at them quite a bit earlier this year before I realized I could buy a small K.O. Lee T&C grinder for the same money. Depending on what he wants (T&C vs surface grinder), the OP can get a real grinder for less than youre suggesting a Delta's worth.

The small production horizontal mills simply arent worth much at all IMO unless they come with vises, cutters, rotabs, etc, then youre really paying for accessories and not a mill. I routinely see them sell at on-site auctions for <$50 to the scrappers. On craigs they pop up quite a bit around Milwaukee, Chicago, and Indy for $1-200 asking price. Granted, Ive seen the larger bedmill style hydraulic production mills sell for decent money for surfacing heads/blocks and roughing stock, but nobody really seems to want the small ones, likely bc a used cnc knee mill in this area is only ~$4-6k, takes up little more room, and has a multiple of the capability. Hobbyists arent interested in these limited-use mills, theyd rather have one with feedscrews and a multi-slot table, and even those dont sell for what youre suggesting. I looked at a really nice Elgin up in Decatur a few months ago for $200 (too small I decided) and am half-heartedly been keeping my eye on the small horizontal market locally bc I'm moving next year and my Bridgeport definitely isnt coming, but a similar, better condition horiz/vertical mill might.

I suspect you may be looking too close to home and/or be a year or two late on value. Reality in 2015 is that manufacturing in most every sector is in the dumps this year with significant layoffs, the small shops that have this equipment are rapidly closing/retiring bc of it, and iron scrap is dirt cheap again at a nickel/pound when yards accept it. On the plus side Ive had tons of free lunches from suppliers needing work, lead times are non-existent, iron hasnt been this cheap since 2008, and I dont even hardly have to compete with scrappers for the good stuff. On the negative, Ive seen thousands laid off, I'm about out of room, and selling iron's difficult when nobody's got money.

justanengineer
07-06-2015, 10:36 PM
The K&T fully tooled was $500


Excuse me if I missed it, but I'm patiently waiting for pics of that one. K&T #2 with vertical and slotting heads, plus a Bport head to mount on the rams is my dream mill. One day when Im done moving and ready to settle down.....

Chris165
07-07-2015, 06:01 AM
Excuse me if I missed it, but I'm patiently waiting for pics of that one. K&T #2 with vertical and slotting heads, plus a Bport head to mount on the rams is my dream mill. One day when Im done moving and ready to settle down.....
Here you go
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/07/47c4cd94efeafeaa6d3275ad012a68b1.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/07/967017b4c85c4577372a8830edb33a7e.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/07/e039fe30d54a0e226cf31e5db1a69252.jpg

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projectnut
07-07-2015, 11:34 AM
To each their own opinion. JMO, but ebay is a multiple of reality as is craigs. Even on craigs, the Toolmakers usually have an asking price ~$300 in pretty decent shape within a half day's drive of Chicago in most any direction. I wasnt implying theyre production machines by any means nor do I think theyre geared toward the small 1-2 man shop, they were marketed toward hobbyists and part-time shops, similar to the Foley Belsaw equipment of yesteryear - too much of a PITA to setup to make good money but not bad quality. I looked at them quite a bit earlier this year before I realized I could buy a small K.O. Lee T&C grinder for the same money. Depending on what he wants (T&C vs surface grinder), the OP can get a real grinder for less than youre suggesting a Delta's worth.

The small production horizontal mills simply arent worth much at all IMO unless they come with vises, cutters, rotabs, etc, then youre really paying for accessories and not a mill. I routinely see them sell at on-site auctions for <$50 to the scrappers. On craigs they pop up quite a bit around Milwaukee, Chicago, and Indy for $1-200 asking price. Granted, Ive seen the larger bedmill style hydraulic production mills sell for decent money for surfacing heads/blocks and roughing stock, but nobody really seems to want the small ones, likely bc a used cnc knee mill in this area is only ~$4-6k, takes up little more room, and has a multiple of the capability. Hobbyists arent interested in these limited-use mills, theyd rather have one with feedscrews and a multi-slot table, and even those dont sell for what youre suggesting. I looked at a really nice Elgin up in Decatur a few months ago for $200 (too small I decided) and am half-heartedly been keeping my eye on the small horizontal market locally bc I'm moving next year and my Bridgeport definitely isnt coming, but a similar, better condition horiz/vertical mill might.

I suspect you may be looking too close to home and/or be a year or two late on value. Reality in 2015 is that manufacturing in most every sector is in the dumps this year with significant layoffs, the small shops that have this equipment are rapidly closing/retiring bc of it, and iron scrap is dirt cheap again at a nickel/pound when yards accept it. On the plus side Ive had tons of free lunches from suppliers needing work, lead times are non-existent, iron hasnt been this cheap since 2008, and I dont even hardly have to compete with scrappers for the good stuff. On the negative, Ive seen thousands laid off, I'm about out of room, and selling iron's difficult when nobody's got money.

Things may be cheaper in the Milwaukee and Chicago area, but machines going for the prices you're suggesting have to be one step from the dumpster as far as condition is concerned. I visit used machine dealers in southern Wisconsin and the Fox River Valley on a bi weekly basis. Their prices have more than doubled in the last 5 years. Most of their machinery comes from shops that are upgrading to CNC equipment. There was a big push to upgrade about 5 years ago when the economy went south. Most shops were doing it to reduce labor cost and lower production times. There was a flood of manual and small machines on the market. At the time they were selling for at or near scrap prices.

Now that the majority of the shops have disposed of their older less efficient machines it's a sellers market. Just 2 weeks ago I visited a machine dealer looking for a couple pieces of equipment. Bridgeport Series I mills that sold for $1,500.00 5 years ago are now commanding upwards of $3,000.00. One dealer had just bought a dozen at an auction the month before. There were only 2 left in the warehouse, and that was for good reason. Another dealer has a couple Moore Jig Bore machines I was interested in. 5 years ago one in good shape could be purchased for $500.00 or less. Today they're asking $1,500.00. That's triple the price of 5 years ago and includes no tooling.

About the only time I see what I would call "garage sale" prices is when someone retires, or is forced out of business and is just trying to quickly liquidate the inventory. Either that or the machines are in such poor shape it would cost more to refurbish them than they're worth. Keep in mind 'auction finds" are not as cheap as they were a few years ago either. Many of the auction houses are now charging a 17% to 20% buyers premium. In addition the buyers have to use the auction companies riggers exclusively, and they charge outrageous prices.

I've been watching an auction for a Pratt & Whitney jig bore machine. It finally sold for $1,000.00 plus a 20% buyers fee and a $300.00 rigging fee. The final out the door price was over $1,500.00 with taxes. An identical machine delivered to the door was $500.00 five years ago. There were so many too choose from I decided to wait, because I was sure the prices would come down. They may have for a short period, but today the prices are no bargain.

EddyCurr
07-07-2015, 11:43 AM
Chris165. Enjoy the great collection of equipment you
have landed.

.

Chris165
07-07-2015, 03:42 PM
Chris165. Enjoy the great collection of equipment you
have landed.

.
Thanks

I don't seem to find good deals too often so I'm kind of happy with this one.

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Chris165
07-09-2015, 07:40 AM
Let me add another old machine to this list that might still be available. I really don't need this thing but it's kind of cool and I'm amazed at how it works without automated control.

Bridgeport True-Trace milling machine.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/09/ebd09fe6255e3dd485dd166274184293.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/09/fefb8697fa4e9c9be32fa7227544eecb.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/09/28906f94fc77931a7683abd62832cdfb.jpg


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Toolguy
07-09-2015, 10:43 AM
I have run versions of those with 1, 2 and 3 milling heads. They really do work great when everything is dialed in right, but still fairly tedious as you have to guide the stylus by hand the whole time. Still, it's the closest thing to CNC of the old ways.

mattthemuppet
07-09-2015, 01:49 PM
congrats on your score! I wouldn't know what to do with that K&T, but the small mill, grinder and especially the drill press would have found a lovely home in my garage, especially for $225. Stories like this keep my hopes up that I'll find something similar when I'm in a position to take advantage of it.

Chris165
07-09-2015, 07:26 PM
I have run versions of those with 1, 2 and 3 milling heads. They really do work great when everything is dialed in right, but still fairly tedious as you have to guide the stylus by hand the whole time. Still, it's the closest thing to CNC of the old ways.
I was unaware you had to guide the stylus. This youtube video appears to show the tip guiding itself along the part. I'm sure there are different style heads for different applications.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw_NV02Aook

congrats on your score! I wouldn't know what to do with that K&T, but the small mill, grinder and especially the drill press would have found a lovely home in my garage, especially for $225. Stories like this keep my hopes up that I'll find something similar when I'm in a position to take advantage of it.
Thanks,

I really was not in a position to move on all these machines but try to keep a little padding for days like this. Need to start keeping a little more though[emoji16]

Toolguy
07-09-2015, 08:30 PM
For 2D patterns the stylus will follow the outline. For 3D contouring you have to hand guide the stylus.

Chris165
07-09-2015, 10:23 PM
For 2D patterns the stylus will follow the outline. For 3D contouring you have to hand guide the stylus.
Ok, now I have a little better understanding of how they work.

justanengineer
07-10-2015, 10:27 AM
Here you go


Not a bad deal at all on a top quality machine in what is probably pretty decent condition. If theyve been using it recently in horizontal mode, the rams likely arent even stuck as they often are, which is icing on that cake. Thanks for the pics.

Chris165
07-10-2015, 12:11 PM
Not a bad deal at all on a top quality machine in what is probably pretty decent condition. If theyve been using it recently in horizontal mode, the rams likely arent even stuck as they often are, which is icing on that cake. Thanks for the pics.
Your welcome.

The man said it was used until they decided to close the shop about a month or two ago. He ran through everything and said it works flawlessly.

Real honest guy though, he called to let me know that he has changed the coolant pump so I was aware it was not the original.

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justanengineer
07-10-2015, 01:25 PM
Things may be cheaper in the Milwaukee and Chicago area, but machines going for the prices you're suggesting have to be one step from the dumpster as far as condition is concerned.

JME, but 1.5 hours drive doesnt affect price to any significant extent unless the buyer is rather foolish. Also, not sure where youd find pristine 40+ year old production machinery, but I wouldnt put the machines Ive seen at scrap level, by and large theyre well maintained albeit old-fashioned, obsolete production machines with a moderate/decent amount of both wear and useful life left like many others.



Now that the majority of the shops have disposed of their older less efficient machines it's a sellers market.


Rather far from a sellers market bc as I mentioned and you highlighted, machine prices and manufacturing in the US havent been this bad since 2008 due to heavy industry (mining, oil/gas, forestry, etc), automotive, aerospace, and even govt/defense spending being cut back to nothing both here and abroad. Both individuals and companies simply arent spending, I suspect its largely bc of job cuts here and the Chinese stock market crash, but thats my own guess.

Also, by your own admission we have a glut of this semi-automatic production equipment on the market today, along with relatively cheap/relatively modern(mid-90s onward) cncs, and nobody wants the old production equipment. I'm rather confused how that translates to a sellers' market, if anything it drives the prices to nothing and makes it a buyers market.



Keep in mind 'auction finds" are not as cheap as they were a few years ago either. Many of the auction houses are now charging a 17% to 20% buyers premium. In addition the buyers have to use the auction companies riggers exclusively, and they charge outrageous prices.


Those fees only apply if you attend large manufacturing plant auctions, which admittedly I do upon occasion, but is nothing new even at those sales. 15-20% + moderately expensive riggers' fees have been common since I was a kid working for my father in the 80s and 90s, and certainly were in effect back in the '08-'10 timeframe. I suspect if I ask, he'd likely tell you the fees were that in the late 60s when he started dealing in used machinery. Many folks gripe about them regularly, but they dont realize larger industrial auctions are much more of a gamble for the auctioneer than smaller estate/property sales bc the much more limited audience, and that audience's susceptibility to industry trends. In a down year, nobody's buying and everybody seems to be going out, in a good year prices are up and so is demand. Also, often the auctioneer has to guarantee $XXk dollars profit via a contract, a complete sale within so many hours, money within so many days, pics/people in one area but not another, and a whole host of other PITA factors that drive expense. Personally, I attend many more small shop (<10 man) auctions every year, usually the fees are <15% on the buyer's side and the buyer is responsible for removal however they wish.

Just to add a random thought or two as well - you quoted dealer pricing on highly desireable, flexible tool room and/or maintenance machinery which has a very wide market appeal amongst professionals but also hobbyists, not very limited use production equipment. Aside from the value difference in the machinery discussed, quoting dealer pricing is rather irrelevent bc NOBODY save fools pays near dealer asking price unless the dealer cuts a stupid deal bc they want out of something badly. My father sold machinery for 40+ years and I know the game well. Even when I'm buying from a dealer I rarely do business with like HGR (been there maybe half dozen times), I still only pay ~80% of advertised price for <$100 total. Start buying machinery and the deal gets sweeter.

Chris165
07-10-2015, 09:13 PM
Spoke to the seller again and he let me know that the guy who was buying the Chevalier grinder & U.S. Machine Tool mill decided not to get the mill. I'm assuming because it is not a full featured horizontal. So now that is back on my haul list.

Let me know that there is also a lot of other various tooling (vises,rotary tables, drills) still left over too.

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Chris165
07-11-2015, 10:40 PM
Just couldn't resist

Added the true trace to my haul. He said it was working until the day it was moved out.

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mattthemuppet
07-12-2015, 12:28 AM
Wow you just have to rub it in, don't you :)

Chris165
07-12-2015, 01:27 PM
Wow you just have to rub it in, don't you :)
Nope

Just giving everybody a heads up of what machines are moving in because THERE WILL be a lot of questions to follow.

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