View Full Version : OT: Visit from the BATF (or ATF).

06-14-2004, 04:44 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-14-2004, 05:12 PM
Careful, he might light it and throw it at you.

06-14-2004, 05:30 PM
Sign of the times. When I was a kid I would order dynamite fuse through the mail. Try that today!

Al Messer
06-14-2004, 06:20 PM
Evan, as far as I know, you can still buy it by mail from Dixie Gun Works.

06-14-2004, 06:43 PM
Al, Dixie Gun Works sells cannon fuse, dynamite fuse is much heavier. Not that it makes much difference to the average young miscreant.... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

06-14-2004, 07:16 PM
I'll have you know that I never blew up anything of value, including myself.

06-14-2004, 07:51 PM
Hehehe,I know a knucle head who called up a chemical supply house and got prices for Xylene,toluene,and methalhex-o-something or other and got a knock on the door from the DEA http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

06-14-2004, 10:39 PM
You know, you can make a nice explosive out of liquid oxygen and charcoal. You think that the ATF guys are watching folks who buy either item?

06-14-2004, 10:45 PM
Time to review an old thread http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif


BTW, the FBI runs sting operations. Popular Science some years ago took offense when they discovered that some of the ads in the classified section under Chemicals/glassware etc were actually an FBI sting. They retaliated by placing a notice directly under the ad explaining the nature of the advertiser.

06-14-2004, 11:01 PM
I work at a government lab and the other day one of the temporary employess drove up to the gate and started to check in. He made some sort of comment about a bomb (as a joke, I guess). Security didn't see the humor in that and he now faces up to a year in prison if convicted. That sort of humor is never a good idea, and it's especially bad now.


06-14-2004, 11:18 PM
Geez, why didn't he just call around looking for a ton of fertilizer, diesel and blasting caps. That would get the same attention.

Gosh, I remember when you could buy potassium nitrate at the drug store. It came in 4oz. boxes for 25 cents. We used to buy a lot of it! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

You can get smoke bombs for like 20/$1.

06-14-2004, 11:35 PM
You know I really don't understand this war on terrorism. Terrorism isn't a nation or even a group, but a tactic that has always been used and probably always will be. The President is using this only to gain new war-time powers like a supposed power to order the use of torture, and quixotically to turn our government and our Constitution on its head (this is about new efforts to deprive Americans of our rights that will come out in the news next week.)

I haven't heard the name of Osama Bin Laden for quite a long time. No doubt he is due to strike again. Or it could be any number of new groups that are popping up all over the world.

Anyway the problem with terrorism is that improvised devices will always be possible and some of them can kill lots of people. On 9/11 a small group used box cutters to indirectly kill 3000 people. Recently some supposed plans were tortured out of someone about a plan to use natural gas in a building to cause destruction. I saw an experiment on the news a few days ago and it was a pretty impressive explosion. Until McVeigh attacked the Federal Building and murdered all those poeple I wasn't aware that just diesel fuel and fertilizer was a dangerous explosive. I'm sure the terrorists have known that for a long time. Don't fuel your truck and buy fertilizer at the IFA, just before you need to travel or you might get a body cavity check. They might detect nitrates hidden up you know where.

I really can't understand how we can become safer when we invade a non terrorist country, and then we abuse 44,000 or so of them in some of the most attrocious ways immaginable, hire Israeli interogators and use ammunition bought from Israel.

I hope our next leader is not into kicking hornets nests while petting the snake that bit us (Osama Bin Laden.)

I'm sorry I spouted off. I've been getting pretty concerned about how bad things are getting. I usually vent at The General Conversation (http://thegeneralconversation.com/)


Democracy for America (http://www.democracyforamerica.com/forums/)


06-14-2004, 11:42 PM
Jorgensen, you sound liberal by nature, are you pro gun?
The same liberals who decry that the constitution is being raped are the same ones who want to Erase the 2nd ammendment off the bill of rights, if not erase it, then think up some crazy interpretations that don't stand up.
I'm not arguing against what you said, just pointing out something that I felt needs to be reflected upon.

Bigger government is not the answer. You want to defeat terrorism, every civillian needs to be like Todd Beamer, and stand up when the time comes. Only thing to fear is fear itself.

However, I will have to totally disagree with you on Iraq.

[This message has been edited by BillH (edited 06-14-2004).]

06-14-2004, 11:46 PM
Relax Spence. The police state will make you free! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

06-14-2004, 11:54 PM
The fertilizer "bomb" has been used for a long time. I remember my grandfather using it to remove stumps from the field (farm). That was back in the 50's. Before diesel, they used crude oil or lamp oil. The use probably goes back to the early 1900's.

06-14-2004, 11:56 PM
I am pro-gun, Endowmentmember of the NRA, I am for freedom, and I paid my part for it many years ago. This afternoon the feds and the local police announced that a cell phone dealer was picked up by the police last November and has found to be an international terrorist liked to the Osama Bin Laden bunch. This guy was planning to blow up a mall in Columbus, Ohio, well we do have a few extra to chose from, some not doing so good, so this could have been urban renewal.

Seriously, Freedom is not Free, but a police state costs you everything.


[This message has been edited by jfsmith (edited 06-14-2004).]

Dave Opincarne
06-15-2004, 12:06 AM
Osama who? Don't think I remember him. Hasn't this always been about WMDs (wepons of mass deception) ...or was it bringing democracy to Iraq and being welcomed as liberators...oh wait I remember, it was shuting down the torcher chambers and restoring (inanlianable) human rights. But I don't know who this Osama fellow is though.


06-15-2004, 12:21 AM
No, it was to keep the terrorists from getting their hands on the WMD's provided by Saddam. The so called torture chambers, that never played a role in going over there, just the media wont let it die, you know, what ever they can find to try to kill Bush's re-election.

Im sure Osama and rest of Al-queda would love nothing more than to have Kerry win.
Now what does that tell you?

Dave Opincarne
06-15-2004, 12:26 AM
That you haven't been following the rhetoric from the white house over the past year and a half. You know, when the congresional inquieries werr heating up.

06-15-2004, 02:08 AM
Bush wasn't elected, he was appointed.

Doc Nickel
06-15-2004, 02:20 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
Bush wasn't elected, he was appointed.</font>

-By Supreme Court members who were appointed by Clinton? That's quite the conspiracy theory. Got anything to back that up, or is that another one of those bumper-sticker phrases that sounds good, but doesn't mean anything?

(I'll assume you know how the electoral college works, and that you also recall that Gore was the first to file suit over the election.)


06-15-2004, 02:22 AM
Many of you seem to understand the situation that we are in. I am not sure that I can help. But I will never close my eyes. I can not support Kerry.

Thank you all,


06-15-2004, 02:25 AM
What conspiracy theory? I know how the electoral college DOESN't work. Bush didn't get the most votes. It's a matter of record.

I am going to point out that you should not make any assumptions about my political leanings. I don't like ANY of the parties and generally dislike all who seek power as people who cannot be trusted. When I vote, and I always do, I usually must hold my nose.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 06-15-2004).]

Doc Nickel
06-15-2004, 06:10 AM
I don't have to make assumptions since I know the phrase you posted is wholly incorrect.

By "appointed" you imply that the US Supreme Court handed the Presidency to Bush, as if they both had the power to do so and that said handing over was in fact contrary to the actual outcome of the election.

Both are, in fact, wrong, and that, too, is a matter of record.

First off, as I'm sure you know, the Popular Vote has never, in the history of this Union, determined the President of the United States. The Popular Vote has it's effect in that the State's electors are supposed to vote for the candidate who takes that state's popular vote, but electors can and have voted to the contrary.

The US is a Republic and not a true Democracy, because the framers of the Constitution were also aware of the possibility of tyrrany of the masses. Thus we have the Electoral College.

Second, the US Supreme Court had no power to simply bequeath the Presidency as they saw fit. They heard the cases (three suits by Gore's party, two countersuits by Bush's party, as I recall) in an expidited fashion due to the urgency of the matter, but their findings had nothing to do with who actually got the Presidency, they handled only the case at hand- which included allowing or disallowing recounts (Gore was asking for specific sorts of recounts that were technically not allowed, and to allow said counts to run beyond Constitutionally-mandated timeframes.)

Mouthing a simple platitude like "selected, not elected" or "he was appointed, not elected", or "Re-Elect Gore, '04" strikes me either as wanton ignorance or wilful disregard for the truth.


06-15-2004, 07:56 AM
Evan- I'm in the same boat as you regarding politicians. I trust none of them. One of my favorite things to ask a politician looking for votes is "Name three laws you will work to repeal if elected". That usually leaves them slack-jawed.
Doc Nickle- good points about our republic. I once saw democracy described as two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for supper.
In my view, the war in Iraq isn't about oil, WMDs, or terrorism. It's about Israel. Study the goals of Saddam's Baath party and you'll see why.

06-15-2004, 08:06 AM
The electorial college worked precisly as it should have,the split in the popular vote was less than 1/2 of 1 percent,too close to call by all accounts.

The system was divised in order to give equal representation to each state reguardless of population,other wise those of us who live out isde of New York,Florida,California and Texas would not have any say in the election no matter who we voted for.

Interestingly enough if the Gore camp had accepted the recount criteria that the Bush team wanted Bush would have lost Flrida by 300 votes,so much for conspiracy.

Fact is Bush won more states and he won the election and it was as it should be,its just that some people in the Democratic party can't stand the fact the they are losing their Dictatorship in this country.

When the chips are down the Demoratic party will lie,cheat and steal much faster than any republican,there is a well documented history of this,the two most recent entries are the Texas redistricing fiasco and the New Jersy senate race,both disgusting acts of criminal behavior.

06-15-2004, 08:39 AM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

J Tiers
06-15-2004, 08:53 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
What conspiracy theory? I know how the electoral college DOESN't work. Bush didn't get the most votes. It's a matter of record.

(edited 06-15-2004).]</font>

Clinton (and, BTW, Nixon IIRC) was "elected" with less than half the vote in at least one of the "elections".

I believe the Clinton vote percentage was 47%.

Those who do not agree that Clinton or Bush were "elected" due to this or that are frankly showing that they apparently have no respect for law. The supreme court IS the arbiter of law, aside from treaties, which supersede all laws.

There is a system set up for elections. It is no surprise, the rules are known.

If that system shows up with an elected candidate according to its rules, that candidate is indeed elected. If fraud can be shown in obtaining the votes, that is another matter, it means the necessary votes were in fact NOT obtained.

I do not like any candidate. I belong to no party. My father has been a democratic ward worker for 40 years, but quit recently, disgusted with the "democratic" party.

Where are the Johnsons (a damn liar, but a good man), or even the Goldwaters?

I notice that those who hold "certain" views tend to want to pick and choose the laws they will accept, and the supreme court decisions they will accept. Any that don't agree with THEM are airily tossed aside as "invalid", or "a fix", etc, etc.

Sorry boys, it don't work that way in the US. Change the laws if you want, but obey them while they are in place. And be glad you CAN change the laws.

As long as there are people, things will get screwed up. Our system does one of the best jobs of allowing for and correcting the screwups.

I like the USA, I don't want to live anywhere else. I am sorry that some citizens apparently despise it.

06-15-2004, 09:47 AM
"...two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for supper." http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

HaHa!!! That's one worth remembering.

Weston Bye
06-15-2004, 12:43 PM
"...two wolves and a lamb"

The saying has been attributed to Franklin, and the other half of the saying goes something like this:

"...but an armed lamb can excersize a veto."


06-15-2004, 01:58 PM
Who ever wins the most electorates, wins the election, Bush clearly won.
Not to mention the mass voter fraud of illegal immigrants being stuffed into the voting booths, and thousans of US service personel mail in votes were not counted, it's not clear at all that Gore got the popular vote.

06-15-2004, 04:09 PM
Hi Bill,

Yes I am pro-gun. I also like the ACLU often times and I can't understand the anti-gun position that they seem to have taken.

One thing about your question is that I recognize right away is that it is what is known as and ad-homonym argument. It's like saying, "Hey guy's look, he's anti-gun, so don't believe a thing he says,”

I think it's funny.

Still there were many corrupt things done in Florida and other places under the watchful eyes of Jeb Bush and Republicans managing the elections. Take a minute and see this video, so that you will know some of the players and what they did. You might want to turn the volume down a bit. There is one swear word in the music so if you haven't ever heard one of those, well I warned you.
Short Video of the voting fraud in Florida (http://www.ericblumrich.com/gta.html)
Manipulation of our elections and of our Constitution, is what I find offensive.

Please be sure and read the Election report. The link is at the end of the video. Much information.

[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 06-15-2004).]

Doc Nickel
06-15-2004, 04:16 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BillH:
... Not to mention the mass voter fraud of illegal immigrants being stuffed into the voting booths, and thousans of US service personel mail in votes were not counted...</font>

-Which typically happens to one degree or another in every election.

There are always miscast ballots, incompletely cast ballots (the "chad" thing) multiply-punched ballots, ballots later thrown out because the voter was found to be ineligible, massive rolls of people like inmates not allowed or discouraged from voting, overseas soldiers whose ballots either didn't arrive there on time or didn't arrive back here on time, etcetera, ad nauseum.

Happens every single election.

Voting machines break down, some precincts don't have enough personell to handle the traffic, or they run out of ballots, traffic gets snarled either by campaigners, protestors or simple traffic accidents, you name it.

It happens in every single election.

The only reason things like that were so important in 2000 was simply due to the extremely close race.

In a presidential election, we have to try and get three hundred million citizens into a polling place, fill out a form and back out, with as little trouble as possible.

Even though some of them live in rural Kansas and have to drive 120 miles to the voting booth, or some are stationed in Abu Dhabi and Germany, and some are out on an expedition in Antarctica, and there's twenty million in Manhattan alone that have to filter through fewer than 300 polling places meaning that each person has to arrive, sign in, vote and exit in less than twenty seconds on average...

The 2000 vote was, for all intents and purposes, identical. Each (major) candidate got the statistical equivalent of 50% of the vote, which is why we have the Electoral College, which functioned precisely as it was designed to do.

Despite Gore's posturing and vitriol.

Had Gore simply politely conceded, maintained a shred of dignity, and then kept himself in the public eye, at least to a small degree, instead of disappearing and putting on the hermit-beard, he'd be the Democratic candidate today, and nearly a shoe-in. Bush would be sweating bullets right now.


06-15-2004, 04:23 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

Doc Nickel
06-15-2004, 04:39 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SJorgensen:
Take a minute and see this video, so that you will know some of the players and what they did.</font>

-So according to that video, the Republican Party knew that the election would come down to hinging on an extremely close vote in Florida alone, two years ahead of time?

I also note that the video makers naturally assumed that all 58,000 "disenfranchised" voters would in fact vote democratic.

Voters not part of a fixed bloc (blacks, Cubans, elderly, etc) but ones who simply shared some identifier with a criminal, and thus it would be far more accurate to assume they would vote in roughly equal proportion to the rest of the population.

Meaning it's net effect on the election was very likely nil.

But hey, saying "58,000 got disenfranchised and Bush only won by 500" sounds good, just like "Selected, not elected", if you don't bother to think about it.


06-15-2004, 04:59 PM
Sombody, not me, that's for sure, wrote in the back window of my best friends truck topper, "wash me, I have a gun". He lives on a gravel road, so it was covered in dirt. now what makes this funny, is we both work at a nuclear power plant, and the day before, he accidently brought his gun to work after hunting. they sent him home, and lost about 3 hours of work time. So, when somebody, not me, for sure, wrote that on his window in the nuke parking lot, the guards had a cow. luckily, for whoever, not me, did it, some anti-nuke hippy tried to climb the fence, and the guards had better things to do. without that hippy climbing the fence, whoever did it, not me by the way, could have been fired.

06-15-2004, 05:06 PM
I lived in Florida for 5 years and I traveled a bit and visited some of the poorer townships in the interior of the state. Some of these are, I am sure, among the poorest in the country. The only exception I can think of is some of the Indian Reservations I have seen. The thing that struck me as unusual is that even in communities that are predominately poor black communities, the city halls and government buildings were predominately, if not exclusively populated by white race people. The demographics of the areas affected by this purging I think would point to Democratic leaning people and I think the gated-communities like around Miami, Palm Beach and Tampa would be predominately Republican. So I think you could show Republican demographics as islands in a sea of Democrats.
In all, Palm Beach voting machines misread 27,000 ballots. Jeb Bush's Secretary of State, Katharine Harris, stopped them counting these votes by hand. She did the same to Gadstone, one of Florida's blackest, poorest and most Democrat counties, where machines failed to count one in eight ballots. Again Harris stopped the hand count. This alone cost Gore another 700 votes, in an election in which Harris declared George Bush winner by only 537 votes.

Lawyer for NAACP
Governor Bush, the Secretary of State Katherine Harris, Clayton Roberts, the head of elections, all knew or should have known in advance that certain election policies and practices would disproportionately impact low-income areas, and in particular black citizens and other minority citizens, and that this would disproportionately impact Democratic voters, based on historical voting trends.

06-15-2004, 05:50 PM
I'm a disenfranchised voter myself. I voted Libertarian during the '96 elections. Upon reading the voting results for my town, I noted that there were no votes for the Libertarian candidate recorded. I called the town office, and the little old lady running the place started to panic. Ultimately, I let it slide, but I've always wondered who got my vote that year.

06-15-2004, 08:01 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-15-2004, 08:26 PM

That's a fine story, and you can believe it if you choose to. But don't you have anything to say about the particular facts presented in that election report at the end of the video?
If you chose not to view it and consider it "propaganda." That's your choice to make.

Just be aware that we might just loose our Democracy, while well-intentioned people turn their heads and close their eyes to the truth.

06-15-2004, 08:30 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-15-2004, 08:32 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

Doc Nickel
06-15-2004, 09:43 PM
Dan has it struck on the head Spence. United States election procedures spell out (most) possible scenarios and the timelines thereof.

At least one of Gore's suits was to extend or ignore an existing law (dating back many decades) having to do with when the election results were officially recorded.

The Law said something like the results shall be entered by [X time] after the Election. Period, end of conversation. Gore's suit was arguing that "shall" didn't necessarily mean "must" or "you gotta" and was thus 'open to interpretation'; the Florida Supreme Court disagreed, so Gore tok it to the Us Spreme Court previous finding was upheld.

These are not partisan interpretations, they're a matter of cold fact.

Harris, in all cases I'm aware of involving the election, upheld the law. Said Law sometimes helped the Bush camp, sometimes it helped the Gore camp, but in any case she upheld it, as she was hired to do.


06-15-2004, 10:13 PM
She is a good leader.

the area around Boca Raton is filled with senior citizens in retirement communities. I delivered to that area on election day, and talked to several people getting on and off of buses going to the polling place. They gave those people a free ride to the shopping center, and then stopped by the polling place on the way back. Lunch was on them, don't know what else. Gore stickers all over the bus.
You tell me if that is right?
Harris should have seen what I did, she would have had a fit.
David from jax

06-15-2004, 10:48 PM
At the end of the video is a link to the reporter's story. If you poke around on his website, one of the things you'll quyickly discover is that he's an ex-pat American living in England. He also says that he's "the only one who can tell you the truth." Now when I hear that, my BS meter starts going off. In another related story he makes the claim that on the voter registration forms, the voter's ethnicity is mentioned. Unless I'm mistaken, that's illegal. At which point, you have to ask yourself, if that's the case, then why hasn't the FBI, FEC, and Congress been investigating this thing to death?

Nearly every district in the US reported some minor voting irregularities, but those quickly got glossed over, because they didn't happen in Florida. Had Al Gore managed to take his home state of Tennessee, the Florida vote wouldn't have mattered one whit, and I'd lay dollars to donuts that no one would be carping about the 2000 election today.

Oh yeah, in one of the articles that the reporter wrote, he quotes a prominant member of the Democratic party in Florida as saying that if they could have done the things that Harris did, they would have (assuming, of course, that she DID rig the election).

Doc Nickel
06-16-2004, 12:54 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SJorgensen:
The thing that struck me as unusual is that even in communities that are predominately poor black communities, the city halls and government buildings were predominately, if not exclusively populated by white race people.</font>

-What are you trying to say? That any white person in any sort of government employ is and will actively try to disenfranchise blacks?

I can't speak for Florida's demographics, as I've never been there, and suspect I'd melt and run down into my shoes if I did. But I've seen plenty of references that implied that just because the polling workers were white, that they were actively discouraging or preventing blacks from voting. The "proof", however, is scant, and strikes me as just another "sounds good" phrase like Evan's "selected, not elected" nonsense.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The demographics of the areas affected by this purging[...]</font>

-Purging? What "purging"? All you've stated so far is that the voters in some areas were predominantly black, and the poll workers in those areas were predominantly white. Where does a "purge" enter into it?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I think would point to Democratic leaning people and I think the gated-communities like around Miami, Palm Beach and Tampa would be predominately Republican. So I think you could show Republican demographics as islands in a sea of Democrats.</font>

-That's entirely possible. As I said, I've never been there. However, the "purged names" as noted in the linked video, were simply a list of people whose names and/or birthdates were the same as incarcerated felons. That list, due to it's very nature, must almost certainly be highly random.

Meaning that it was not a list of any particular demographic- say, blacks, the elderly, Cuban-Americans, etc- a demographic which can be analyzed to vote in ome particular direction. The people included on the list were almost certainly a highly randomized sampling from a wide variety of demographics, and thus can easily and accurately be assumed to have been a sampling roughly identical to the overall voting-age group of the area.

And since that area was almost perfectly 50-50 Bush/Gore, it can be logically assumed the list was roughly the same. Which means that the people on the list, had they not been 'disenfranchised', would very likely have had no net effect on the election.

The movie linked above strongly implies that, had they not been "purged", they'd have all voted Gore, and thus Gore would have won. That's possible, of course, but logically unlikely.

In any case, the "purging" is seen- and implied in the video- as some evil, underhanded tactic specifically orchestrated by Harris. The fact of the matter is that EVERY district across the nation periodically "purges" voter rolls. This is because voters tend to die (car crashes, old age, disease, etc) or move to a new city or state, or their marital status changes (Miss Smith marries Mr. Jones and becomes Mrs. Jones- the election workers then "purge" the name Miss Smith off the rolls, but Mrs. Jones nee` Smith is not being "disenfranchised") or they're arrested and incarcerated, or committed to a mental institution, you name it.

My little tiny town (some 7K residents) had 'purged' over a thousand names off the voter rolls just prior to the 2000 election. Two of the "purged" names, as noted by the local news, were familiar to most; are you worried that Jack Meoff and Hugh Jass were disenfranchised? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In all, Palm Beach voting machines misread 27,000 ballots. Jeb Bush's Secretary of State, Katharine Harris, stopped them counting these votes by hand. She did the same to Gadstone, one of Florida's blackest, poorest and most Democrat counties, where machines failed to count one in eight ballots. Again Harris stopped the hand count. This alone cost Gore another 700 votes, in an election in which Harris declared George Bush winner by only 537 votes.</font>

-And she did so because both the US Election regulations and Florida Election regulations have a hard, firm, definite time limit for disputes, recounts and other mishaps. Remember that she "put the stop" to the second or in some cases third or fourth recount, something like twenty-five days after the election.

In addition to the legal time constraints, there was also the issue of handling the ballots for the third or fourth time. Again, remember that part of the problem was multiply-punched ballots, and incompletely punched ballots, where the "chad" (punched out section) had not seperated fully from the ballot.

BOTH sides were arguing over multiple-rehandlings of the ballots, because it was known that chads were falling off- and thus changing the count as it went- during subsequent recounts. A Janitor reported sweeping up a large number of them from the room in which the third Broward county recount was being done.

And this was weeks after the vote itself, and miles from the voting booths, so the "chad" could have only come from the ballots themselves.

Again, Harris did what she was supposed to do, when she was supposed to do it, according to established Florida and US law.


06-16-2004, 01:19 AM
Spence, Add-homynm is name calling.
What your thinking about is called.... Darn, been a few semesters since I had the group communications class...

06-16-2004, 01:58 AM
I'm gonna say one more thing here. Doc, regardless of what you think/belive actually happened, the rest of the world perceives the "selected" theory. I base that on discussions with locals and visitors from Europe. You will have a very hard time convincing them otherwise. The way the US and it's citizens perceives itself is vastly different from how the rest of the planet sees it.

Doc Nickel
06-16-2004, 06:09 AM
Perception, fortunately, is not reality.

Now, when you posted that malapropism, were you helping to clarify that perception, or perpetuating it?


06-16-2004, 07:58 AM
Yes,that is it exactly,people believe what they want to,not what is fact,the left in this country are worse than Jim Jones's followers,they are all to willing to commit suicide for a non-sense belief.

Mark my words,if Bush were to win by an 80% majority this fall,these same people would glady fall on their swords perpetuating the same sort of non-sense.

If the Democrats want to win elections then they must first ditch the Clintons,Gores,Palouseys,Kerrys,Kennedys and Carvels and find somebody if not conservative aleast as close as possible to the center and then back them.They can not keep defending the indefensible.

06-16-2004, 08:26 AM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-16-2004, 08:40 AM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-16-2004, 12:37 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
Bush wasn't elected, he was appointed.</font>Seems to me that many months after the Supreme Court decision, somewhere in an obscure corner of the liberal biased media, a statement was made that if all the then existing (at the time of the election) election rules had been honestly followed, Bush would have won by several hundred votes in Florida, making the Court decision a moot point.

06-16-2004, 12:53 PM
Evan has a point, not that it really matters what the rest of the world thinks in the end.
I view people in Spain as cowards for giving into the terrorists and electing a socialist government, exactly what the terrorist wanted.
Now I am sure SPainards don't view themselves that way. Nor do Iraqi's view themselves as barbaric, even though I think they are.
Oh, and Canadians are just... weird. But Im sure they don't view themselves that way either. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

[This message has been edited by BillH (edited 06-16-2004).]

06-16-2004, 01:34 PM
Evan, are you an American ? I know you live up in the woods in Canada. Do you come back here to vote every 4 years? You or anybody else who hides out in another country, doesn't pay taxes, y'all don't have **** to say what happenens here. None of you people should be able to vote, your opinion is not valid. If you are a Canadian, take your opinion and shove it up your ass. What have the Canadians ever done to make the world free? I know some Canadians put their lives on the line in WW2, and I salute their sacrifice. However they are exception, not the rule. The free world follows our lead, we have always shed the most blood, spent the most money, gave more than any country in the world. Yet all the world is always asking for more, looking for a big handout on one side, while the other hand is holding a knife to stab us in the back. If you are an American, live here and fully particepate, otherwise keep your mouth shut.

06-16-2004, 01:43 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-16-2004, 01:56 PM

I am a dual citizen and have never missed a chance to vote in the jurisdiction I was qualifed to vote in.

For your information the Canadians were the only forces to complete their assigned mission on D-day.

Canadians fought in Korea. Canadians fought in Vietnam and Canadians are currently policing Afganistan.

If the rest of the world had followed the US's lead the Third Reich would be running the show today.

BTW, US Army Artillery myself.

Have a nice day.

06-16-2004, 02:33 PM
Try to lighten up a little bit Bikenut. Everyone is as entitled to an opinion as you are, and obviously you are free to assign your own degree of credibility to them.

I do question whether it is wise to attempt to speak for over 6 billion people:
"I'm gonna say one more thing here. Doc, regardless of what you think/belive actually happened, the rest of the world perceives the "selected" theory. I base that on discussions with locals and visitors from Europe. You will have a very hard time convincing them otherwise."
At least a marginal basis was given for the assumption.

And then speaking for 300 million American people:
"The way the US and it's citizens perceives itself is vastly different from how the rest of the planet sees it."

It is presumptuous to tell this many people with greatly varying opinions, how they view themselves. I often find my perceptions to be vastly different then many of my fellow countrymen. We are all not blind to the world around us, and people from other locales are hardly exempt from the same trappings of misinformation and narrow-mindedness.

I guess I tend to expect an open-minded attitude from people who have demonstrated their obvious and broad intelligence, and many from this board have consistently shown these admirable qualities. Informational discourse is better served in a courteous and non-accusatory manner. Of course, this is only MY opinion. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

06-16-2004, 02:42 PM
Evan, I'm sorry for all the Canadians I left out in their heroic sacrifices for freedom. Dual nationally is bull****, when is the last time you paid any taxes in the USA? Are you saying we were in league with the Third Reich? If we followed the lead of your adopted country we would be striving for the goals of Karl Marx. I also served, 12 years. Sgt. Smith, 116th Armd. Cav. You have a nice day yourself, Smitty

06-16-2004, 02:42 PM

I stand by those comments. Of course I can not speak for every individual and must use generalities but those generalities are generally correct. I have been to Europe twice and have traveled extensively throught most of North America. My statements are not based on talking to just a couple of friends but rather many people both outside and inside the US.

Please note that I did not assign a particular viewpoint to US citizens, only stated that is largely different than outside perception. You only need to visit various online news media outlet outside the US to become convinced of that.

06-16-2004, 02:44 PM

I had a feeling you would misundertand the comment. If other countries in the world had adopted the US "lets not get involved" attitude during WWII the Third Reich would have won.

06-16-2004, 02:51 PM
Whoa, I just caught that last post.

The US bailed out a lot of people in the Second World War. I think that is was absolutely the right thing to do. But you make it sound like the United Stated practically WAS the third reich. I don’t think that’s fair.

The statement about D-day sounds like you are implying that all of the other soldiers were either chicken, or just bad soldiers. I sure know this to not be the case.

In general, I am proud of the good my country is responsible for, and embarrassed by the bad. But I try to never let my nationalism impair my objectivity.

06-16-2004, 02:57 PM
Which beach did the Canadians have to storm in WW2? My grandpa happened to be on Omaha beach that morning.
Some had it easier than others, such a comment that the Canadians were the only ones to complete their mission sounds condensending. The job got done.

06-16-2004, 03:05 PM
Whoa Evan! I wasn't there to see D-day, but I, just a couple of days ago, finished reading "Overlord", by Max Hastings, a British author. Per his description, the Canadians and British landings on Juno, Sword, and Gold met relatively light resistance, and they all got ashore in pretty good order.

But once they tried moving inland toward Caen they bogged down big time. And they stayed bogged down for many days, UNTIL the U.S. forces, to their right, finally broke out of the hedgerows, forcing the Germans to weaken their opposition to Montgomery's British and Canadian forces. Quite frankly, his account is not at all complementary of the British or Canadian units' progress during that period. He cites several instances of Montgomery's bold or optimistic promises or objectives, which were not accomplished, or at least not in a timely manner.

Now I certainly do not intend to belittle the efforts of any units involved. They were all heroes in my mind. The fighting was fierce and casualties were horrible. The German tanks and mounted guns outclassed the U.S. Shermans and the British tanks by a wide margin, as did most of the other weaponry involved at that time. The one saving factor for the allies was the air supremacy they enjoyed. But even that was not as effective as it could have been, due to the close proximity of 'friendlies' at times. The two "differenc makers" in the whole undertaking were: (1) the allies material and manpower advantages, and (2) the British ULTRA counter-intelligence/deception program. I don't think the fighting prowess of any of the allied forces was anything to get excited about early in that operation. They were green at the time, but they did get better...quickly.

06-16-2004, 03:38 PM
Time to brush up on a bit of history.

Sep 5, 1939: Germany invades Poland. Us declares neutrality.

Sep 10, 1939: Canada delclares war on Germany. Us stays neutral.

Nov 30, 1939: Germans invade Finland. US stays neutral.

April 9, 1940: Germans invade Denmark and Norway. US stays neutral.

May 1940: Germany invades most of rest of Europe. US still neutral.

The list of delays and procrastination goes on. It wasn't until Jan 26 of 1942 that the US first committed troops to help.

"Former president Herbert Hoover had become the Republican Party's chief spokesman in foreign affairs, and when Germany seized Moravia and Bohemia, Hoover declared that no clear and present danger existed and that Britain, France, and others in Europe would be able to defend themselves should there be war. Hoover spoke of Roosevelt's "dangerous adventures" and argued that Roosevelt was trying to divert people's attention from his failure to end the depression. Sounding like a progressive dissenter and an echo of Norman Thomas, Hoover declared that involvement in a major war would cause the United States to become "mobilized into practically a fascist government." This, he suggested, would help Roosevelt in his "ambitions to become a kind of dictator." Hoover however, was accurate on one account: he predicted that another major war would bring Communist expansion."

06-16-2004, 03:41 PM
Evan, you still haven't answered my question, when is the last time you paid taxes to the USA? You hide out in the woods in Canada, you do nothing to make our country better, just sit up there and talk ****. You don't like the way things are going here, live here, pay taxes, get involved, make a difference. I don't like everything my country has done, but I live here, pay may taxes, help my fellow Americans, and fully participate. I have no respect for anybody who doesn't live here, and wants to sit ond the sidelines and talk smack. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and point fingers. Like I said before, if you ain't living here, fully participating, you ain't got **** to say. I don't see how you can look at yourself in the mirror and can yourself an American. How many fireworks are you planning to set off on the 4th of July? I don't mean to be uncivil, and nothing personal. My best to you and you family, Smitty

06-16-2004, 03:51 PM
I have paid taxes in the US. I don't currently as I don't live there. When was the last time you paid taxes in Canada?

Quote "If you are a Canadian, take your opinion and shove it up your ass. What have the Canadians ever done to make the world free?"

By the end of the Normandy campaign, about 5,020 Canadians had been killed. About 5,400 Canadians are buried in Normandy.

In the two and a half months of the Normandy campaign, Allied casualities (killed, wounded and captured) totalled 210,000.

Canadian casualties totalled more than 18,000, including more than 5,000 dead. German casualties were 450,000.

Note that on a per capita basis Canadian casualties were by far the highest.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 06-16-2004).]

06-16-2004, 03:59 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-16-2004, 03:59 PM
(Sniff) Can't we all just machine something?(sniff)

John Stevenson
06-16-2004, 04:00 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pgmrdan:
Evan said, "regardless of what you think/belive actually happened, the rest of the world perceives the "selected" theory."

Sadly, I have to say that you're probably correct on this point. That is what was such a shame about the Florida fiasco.

In the end the laws were upheld but to the rest of the world we appeared to be a country of bumbling idiots because of the highly broadcast acts of a bunch of political fanatacists.</font>

Not wanting to get into political debates but I'm afraid that's the way we saw it in the UK.
It certainly came across not as bumbling idiots but as a rigged election.
A super power that had no leadership.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
The positive thing that came out of the whole issue was that the USA is tolerant and patient and does allow such people their time in court.</font>

You have to, you have all the lawyers http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

John S.

06-16-2004, 04:05 PM
You know, thats one thing Europe has going for it, FAR LESS LAWYERS!

You know, things allways spiral down to hell on these boards when politics come up, lol.

06-16-2004, 04:10 PM
Evan, The last time I paid taxes in Canada was 1989, when I was visiting there for a day. Paid heavy for gas, food, and beer. Also, I don't claim dual citisenship, I don't vote there, and don't muck around with Canadian politics, so I don't feel obliged to pay any more taxes to Canada than I already have. When Is the last time you were a tax paying citisen (please excuse my spelling) here? Smitty

06-16-2004, 04:35 PM
I can't say for sure when the last time was. Aside from being born in the US and growing up and working there I have been back numerous times on vacation and business, but not in the last eight or so years. I probably qualify in a few years some some amount of SS but have no intention of collecting.

Any time I buy a product made and sold in the USA a portion of the cost of the product cost is US tax. So, I would say that I pay US taxes indirectly every day. I prefer North American made products when possible but could reduce my "tax load" by buying more imports.

06-16-2004, 04:39 PM
Evan, it's been great crossing swords with you today, I belive you are a gentelman and you have great machinist skills, I do respect that. I apologize for anything ungentelmanly thing I've said, I do get carried away sometimes. Gotta go and cop some Zees, I work 3rd shift. I think it's a good thing when gentelman can disagree and have a public discourse, without having to resort to baseball bats or pistols. My best, Smitty

06-16-2004, 04:49 PM
Evan, if it's none of my business don't feel obliged to answer, but is your preference for Canada geographical, political, or both (or neither).

06-16-2004, 04:49 PM
Thanks bikenut.


"During that time period and in that situation a neutral stance was the norm and not the exception."

It wasn't the norm. Those advocating neutrality did have more votes but it caused so much debate that the US was effectively paralyzed. If the US had entered the conflict much sooner it would have been over at least that much sooner or even faster. Hindsight is 20/20.

06-16-2004, 04:52 PM
Carl, my preference for Canada is geographical and familial. I need at least one international border between me and the rest of the looney-toons in my family. It discourages visits. Look up disfunctional family and it says "Speak to Evan".

The political system here is the pits.

06-16-2004, 04:56 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-16-2004, 05:15 PM
Evan, I definitely understand the dysfunctional family angle, believe me I do. So far it has only run me up here to a rural area of the mountains, not across international borders(YET http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif)

J Tiers
06-16-2004, 05:41 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
Time to brush up on a bit of history.

Sep 5, 1939: Germany invades Poland. Us declares neutrality...........


The US (congress) was neutral. The president did want to get involved, and had so wanted for some time.

The point of various US machinations in Asia was to draw an attack from Japan...hence forcing involvement.

We also had Lend-Lease (decried as non-neutral by axis), followed by an "active neutrality" which allowed for sinking or bird-dogging german submarines.

Eventually the Asian adventurism was successful, we were attacked, and got involved.

Prior to all that, and AFTER the first german invasions, even Britain was "neutral".

You may have heard of Neville Chamberlain and his famous "scrap of paper", and the UK sitting by for the takeover of the Sudetenland and annexing of Austria. Hardly the acts of a warlike nation desiring to put down tyrants.

Even France was semi-neutral. Speculation continues to this day as to whether the invasion of France was actually resisted by the French or allowed to happen as the inevitable result and lesser of two evils.

It is difficult to do what must be done. Many or most prefer to be forced to do it, having then the assurance that they cannot be as directly blamed for taking action.

I suspect that if it had been possible to face down Hitler militarily (and it probably was, in fact), and if it had been done resolutely, we would now talk about the "imperialist agression" perpetrated against germany.

Such action would NOT have been popular at the time, neither in europe nor elsewhere. Hitler had many admirers and "fellow travelers", in the US, the UK, France, and elsewhere.

06-16-2004, 07:24 PM
The trouble with europe is the europeans,there are too many varieties of them to get along with each other for very long.

Way back in WWI Wilson suggested a league of nations to prevent such wars in the future,but we didn't join,why because the inbreed monarchs we were dealing with insisted on reperations even though Wilson said it would be the cause of future wars,he was right,and right just what 20 years later?

WWII we went to war becuase we had to,it was after all going to come here sooner or later anyway.My grandfolks and many others of their generation did not and still don't like anything Roosevelt did.He brought us in and let us start the build up for it late.

I personally don't give a rip about any of that morally superior crap that come outs of europe,neither war was instigated by us ,but we got to pick up the tab for finishing it and rebuilding Germany and Japan afterwards,if hindsight is 20/20 then maybe we should have let the rubble lay where it fell.

I fully expect the new European Union to desintigrate into war,it is a disfunctional family after all.
Plus like grandad recently told me"our ancestors left France because of their lousy nieghbors" http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

06-16-2004, 07:50 PM
Evan, just to set the record straight, the US had troops in Greenland by June of 1941 (six months prior to Pearl Harbor), they established the base at Sondre Stromfjord on the west coast of Greenland, and another on the east coast. These bases were established to facilitate the movement of military aircraft from the US to England, in direct contravention of international law. In fact, the Germans considered their presence there as an invasion of Greenland. This was codenamed "Operation Bolero".
As to D-Day, it is my understanding that Commonwealth troops outnumbered US troops by a significant margin. Did the US ultimately win the war for the Allies? Of course, but if we hadn't had two oceans between us and the shooting, who knows how things would have turned out. I consider the Canadians to be our brothers. Sometimes friends disagree, so be it, get over it. To those of us here in the US who criticize their socialist policies, I'd suggest they take a good look at our own government. I consider our two major political parties to be "socialist party 'A'" and "socialist party 'B'". Big freakin' difference.

Dave Opincarne
06-16-2004, 08:16 PM
I believe someone said the US shed the most blood during the European conflict? I don't have the numbers handy so I could be wrong, perhaps someone could confirm this, but I don't think the total military and civilian losses for the US, Great Briton and it's comonwealths, and Free France came anywhere close to those of the Soviet Union.

Yes, being caught between Hitler and Stalin doesn't leave you many choices, but my point is that human beings tend to judge others by their own world view, and the more isolated or shelterd the society in which one lives the greater the difficulty in extending the benifit of the doubt to those outside the percieved norm. While far from the most pleasent time in my life, growing up in Saudi Arabia certainly allowed me to expand my understanding of those people different than myself. FWIW it wasn't the arab culture that was difficult for me but other american and british kids. I'm embarased and horified to think how we acted and treated the people we came in contact with while oustide of our parents supervision.


John Stevenson
06-16-2004, 08:42 PM
I'm not political at all,in fact I hate any arguments on this as you will never win against someone who's mind is already set But I'd like to discuss the D day landings.

As you know it's been the 60th aniversary and our TV has carried a lot of factual programs on all aspects of it. Purely factual, not political, most supported by people who were there and film of the day.

As you know there were five beaches to be taken, one by the Canadians, two by the British and two by the Americans.
Omaha turned out to be a disaster for the Americans. Popular history told us they the reason was they landed opposite a crack German troop which was true.
These current programs have now got deeper into this and come up with other reasons and the proof.

To move away slightly the British attempted a landing at Dieppe in 1942 which was also a disaster. They landed the infantry first to secure a beachead and then the tanks. The infantary were gunned down and the tanks picked off.
This taught them that the D day landings would have to be done the opposite way round, tanks first then troops.
With this in mind the DD tank was evolved. A modified tank with wading skirts fitted so it could swim and also had an auxilliary propellor drive. Much testing was done with these, over 200 training landings.
Each beach would have between 25 and 30 tanks allocated, Omaha drew 28.

At the same time other moves were being made to neutralise enemy beach defences like mines and the soft clay that was found there.
A tank regiment was set up to deal with these defences, nicknamed "The Funnies" they came up with the flail tank, the carpet layer, bridge layer and flame thrower.
These vehicles were offered to all the three countries taking part. America declined as they thought them too bizzare.

On the morning of D day the plan was to launch the DD tanks first to swim ashore to defend the beaches before the troops got there. Whilst they were swimming ashore rocket ships would plaster the beaches with rockets to defuse mines and provide fox holes for the troops.
Despite extensive training the Omaha force released there DD 3 miles out at sea in heavy swells. All the other four forces released at about a mile.
The rocket ships were also stood off three miles and missed the beach, falling short by 1/2 a mile.
In the ensewing swell all 28 DD tanks sunk so when the troops went on the beach they had no armoured support, no fox holes, no cover.

All the other beaches lost an average of 2 DD tanks and the funnies were able to clear a way for the tanks to move inland.

An American has tried to work out why they had no armoured support on the beaches. Records say the tanks were released but failed to get to the beaches. The launching position of the ship was reported as being further in than it was. He's dived and found 24 of the 28 tanks, none where they were supposed to be and all futher out that the ship that launched them !!

I presume this has also been shown on your Discovery channel ?
It will never change the outcome of what happened that day but it will paint it with a truer picture.

John S.

06-16-2004, 09:11 PM

Think about it. Help change the world.

Edited to add: Warning, Libertarian propaganda.


[This message has been edited by meho (edited 06-16-2004).]

Dave Opincarne
06-16-2004, 09:28 PM
Man I can see the libertarian self promotion a mile away. Short test makes it easy to ask loaded questions. The definitions of other Political Philosophies seems like pretty good sumeries though.

[This message has been edited by Dave Opincarne (edited 06-16-2004).]

06-16-2004, 10:03 PM

I was disapointed when Y2K didn't bring about the end of the world and I could become a dominant "War Lord" here in North georgia.


(Ha Ha, just kidding)

06-16-2004, 10:06 PM
I think that it is important to discuss these things. It is important to discuss history in order to never forget those who gave the full measure of their lives in order to preserve the right and freedom that we enjoy that allows us ALL to express our views. This includes Evan and Bikenut, although I must note that Bikenuts choice would be to silence the views of people he doesn't agree with. I'm glad he came around. I must say that Evan is one of the most exceptional members here, both in his machining skills and his life experiences. I think if I live to be 100 years old I will only be lucky enough to meet a few people like Evan, and so I respect everything that he and the others have to say (regardless of the taxes they currently pay.)

I wanted to support a couple of things that were said and add a thing or two. The Germans were firebombing London before we declared war, although we were fully gearing up for war production. The world has probably never seen such output. Most people don't know that George W. Bush's grandfather was DEEPLY involved in providing financing and war material to the Nazi's. Our U.S. government had to sieze the assets of those companies from Prescott Bush et al. It seems that war profiteering goes very deep in that family.

As a young boy I learned how to cast bullets with my old gruff neighbor. When I was 13 he invited me to the firing range and taught me Hunter-Safety. He passed away a couple of years ago and his wife passed not long after. He was one of the Special Services guys that was air-dropped in, prior to D-Day. He was also exceptional in that after most of his group and his commander had been killed he lead the remainder on to take out their objectives. He was field commissioned an Officer. He never talked about it with me, but I wish he had. He was interview about it in one of the documentaries about the invasion. The real heros that I've met, don't brag about it. That's one reason why I can't support John Kerry. I've learned too much about his service that casts doubts on much of it. And he wants statues to be made of him. (If anyone wants to jump me about this I'd be glad to discuss it elsewhere.)

06-16-2004, 10:41 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dave Opincarne:
I believe someone said the US shed the most blood during the European conflict?

The following figures for military casualties in the European Theater are from the book "The Decline and Fall of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan", by Hans Dolinger-
US 170,000 dead
Britain 330,000 dead
France 230,000 dead
Germany 3,250,000" Italy 330,000 "
Austria 230,000 "
Hungary 120,000 "
Romania 200,000 "
Soviet Union 13,600,000 "
Poland 120,000 "

I've only listed those nations with over 100,000 killed in action.

Total casualties (military and civilian) in Europe- 39,600,000

J Tiers
06-16-2004, 11:03 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dave Opincarne:
I don't think the total military and civilian losses for the US, Great Briton and it's comonwealths, and Free France came anywhere close to those of the Soviet Union.


The Soviet Union cheated on their numbers..... starting out starving 12 million Ukrainians before the war. Then in the war, they were rather profligate with troops (feed them? why?).
Afterwards, returning POWs went straight to Siberia, and many died there.

And where do we count the 10 or so million Hitler killed? (6 million Jews, and a few million more generalized "subhumans" from east europe).

[This message has been edited by J Tiers (edited 06-16-2004).]

Dave Opincarne
06-16-2004, 11:06 PM
Tell that to the people who survived Lenongrad.

06-16-2004, 11:11 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J Tiers:
The Soviet Union cheated on their numbers...</font>
In the Soviet Union, a few million dead one way or the other didn't seem to be of much consequence. Hence my hatred of socialists.

Dave Opincarne
06-16-2004, 11:48 PM
Let's not go disparaging socialist now. Socialism never got a chance in Russia, neither did the communism Marx envisioned. The Soviet Union never got close. Bolshivicks were in control of the revolution and Lenon with whatever good intentions was humorless and belived severe measures would need to be imposed before the people came to accept the communist system and sustainability was achieved. Stalin was just a powerhungry totalitarian assho!e and I can dicerne no political ideolagy in his actions other than the desire for total control.

Socialism is a far cry from what happened in the soviet union, but the term became attached to communism in this country as an attempt to discredit early labor movements.

For the record I'm not pro socialist, but I view the true socialist as a well intentioned dreamer. Not to be confused with the bolshavick, communist, or revolutionary of any stripe.


Dave Opincarne
06-16-2004, 11:50 PM
Now here's an interesting thread. It seems Canada's appeal is of a tidal nature, it comes and goes:


06-17-2004, 12:57 AM
You may note that I stated Canada's losses at Normandy were the highest on a per capita basis. The population of Canada at the time was about 12 million. If you normalize the figures by population Canada suffered about 1.2 times more casualties than the US and GB combined. Canada was routinely given the tough jobs and did them at great cost.

06-17-2004, 01:07 AM
This is my son.


06-17-2004, 07:14 AM
A fine looking young man Evan.

06-17-2004, 07:34 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dave Opincarne:
the desire for total control.

For the record I'm not pro socialist, but I view the true socialist as a well intentioned dreamer. Not to be confused with the bolshavick, communist, or revolutionary of any stripe.


But Dave,they come to power because they claim to do these things in the peoples name,Stalin and Hitler are just two examples,who were the Nazis?They were the socialist party of Germany,Hitler made speaches that have only been surpased by the union leaders in this country,substitue the word Jew for company and its a match.

You seen you start out in a soft well mannered voice and over the course of a half hour or so you build to a full red face rant and the crowd will agree with anything you say,except yehhhaaaaaaaaaaa!!Which totaly blew it for Howard Dean.

No the socialist ideals do but two things,one they stifle human creativity and two always lead to destruction,the EU is the latest attempt to stave off starvation in europe as the result of socialist ideas.Germany's social medical system is one example,before the EU it was on its way to bankrupting the country,now its been staved off by the redistribution of wealth thats taking place.In time the whole system including all of europe will colapse,probibly in my lifetime.

06-17-2004, 07:38 AM
A very good article here. From the Independent.

Still searching for peace: the German who felled more than 2,000 Allied soldiers

With Germany represented at commemoration for the first time, Tony Paterson meets the 'Beast of Omaha' Beach'

05 June 2004

He would be a war hero if he were British or American. Yet Hein Severloh is nicknamed the Beast of Omaha Beach for the carnage he inflicted on D-Day. He is reputed to be the German soldier who killed and wounded the most enemy troops in a single day during the whole of the Second World War.

Four thousand, one hundred and eighty-four Americans were shot in front of his bunker WN 62, above Omaha Beach on 6 June 1944. Hein Severloh was responsible for at least half of those deaths. He fired his machine gun at advancing GIs, almost without a break, for nine hours. The heat from the gun barrels he had to keep changing set the grass on fire around his bunker as American bodies bobbed and floated towards him on a flood tide stained pink with their blood.

Today his victims lie buried in the vast American cemetery above Omaha Beach that President George Bush will visit this weekend. They account for nearly a quarter of the 9,368 white stone crosses and Stars of David that cover the graveyard.

Hein Severloh was a raw 20-year-old Wehrmacht private on D-Day, and the invasion was his first real taste of action. He is now a frail and bespectacled pensioner of 81, who lives in a timbered farmhouse in the village of Metzingen near Hamburg. He speaks with a lisp, the result of a stroke he suffered years ago.

Last week, he nervously slapped his thigh in an attempt to fight back his tears as his mind went back to that day of slaughter. He wept as he said: "What should I have done? I thought I would never get out of there alive. I thought I am fighting for my life; it's them or me, that's what I thought."

This weekend, Chancellor Gerhard Schröder will become the first post-war German leader to attend D-Day anniversary celebrations. Opinion polls show more than 70 per cent of Germans are glad he is going. The German Chancellor said the decision to invite him to the D-Day celebrations "shows that the postwar period is over and done for good". On D-Day, he was two months old.But that day is all too real for Hein Severloh. He is plagued by a recurring nightmare, not from when he was mowing down Americans 600 yards away on Omaha Beach. "At that distance, the enemy look like ants," he said. It happened when he reached for his rifle during a lull in the fighting.

A young GI who had survived the onslaught in the sea was running up the beach. Mr Severloh took aim and fired. The round smashed into the GI's forehead and sent his helmet spinning. The soldier slumped dead on the sand. Mr Severloh still remembers the man's contorted expression. "It was only then I realised I had been killing people all the time," he said, "I still dream of that soldier now. I feel sick when I think about it."

For Hein Severloh, the war began and ended that day. His bunker was knocked out by a grenade which killed his commanding officer. He was taken prisoner by the Americans and sent to the United States five days later. He spent three years as a prisoner-of-war.

By 1959, his story had become well known in the United States. The Americans called him the Beast of Omaha Beach. Mr Severloh was too ashamed to tell his four children about his experiences, yet he was desperate to meet Americans who had survived. Eventually, he found David Silva, a GI wounded three times on Omaha Beach. When the men met in Germany in the 1960s they hugged each other for five minutes. "He never asked me to forgive him, but I have done so all the same," Mr Silva says today. "It is important for him." Franz Gockel served with Hein Severloh at bunker WN 62. Yet in many ways he has been luckier. For the 78-year-old veteran, the country he once occupied has become a second home. Every summer, he and his wife Hedwig rent a cottage in the Normandy village of Colleville-sur-Mer, barely a quarter of a mile from the former killing fields on Omaha Beach.

Tomorrow, Franz Gockel will be among the handful of German veterans who will meet Chancellor Schröder and President Jacques Chirac at D-Day celebrations in Caen castle. "I am glad Schröder is attending," he said. "For me and my former comrades, it demonstrates the terrible experiences of the Second World War are now behind us and that we are now finally on the way to build a new Europe."

On D-Day, Gockel was just 18. He was ordered to his gun emplacement at one in the morning on 6 June, hearing gunfire to the west as the Allies were parachuted in at the start of the invasion. As dawn broke, his crew was horrified to see the sea in front of them thick with warships, troop ships and landing craft. "We knew we had no hope of fighting off such a force," he said.

The shelling lasted for five hours. Franz Gockel cowered under the heavy wooden platform that served as a mount for his machinegun and prayed. "We could do nothing against the shells. I just kept shouting out, 'Hail Mary Mother of God, please save me'. Somehow, it helped."

As the Americans began to pour out of their landing craft, the young soldier stood to his Polish-made machinegun and opened fire. Six hundred yards away across the sand, the bodies began to slump in the water. "I didn't know how many I was killing until the corpses started being washed up the beach on the tide," he said.

Then his gun was knocked out in a grenade attack that left him with only a few cuts. Then he poked his head over the edge of a slit trench and felt a massive blow to his left hand. "I saw three of my fingers dangling from their tendons," he said. " But for me it was a million-dollar shot; I was out of the battle." Franz Gockel was evacuated with other wounded Germans. Back in action in November 1944, he was captured by the Americans in eastern France.

Today, a tall obelisk commemorating the American dead stands above the grassed-over remains of bunker WN 62. There is nothing to remind the millions of visitors to the site, of the Germans who were killed there. Last year, Franz Gockel erected a small wooden cross outside his bunker in memory of the 18 men of his 25-strong unit who died in action. Less than a week later, it was vandalised.

Chancellor Schröder said the D-Day anniversary "means that for us Germans the Second World War is finally over." But the German survivors of D-Day know the war, and all the guilt, will end only when they are dead.

J Tiers
06-17-2004, 08:46 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by wierdscience:
But Dave,they come to power because they claim to do these things in the peoples name,Stalin and Hitler are just two examples,who were the Nazis?They were the socialist party of Germany,.</font>

"Nazi"....from the german for "national socialist......"

Socialism has as many faces as there are advocates. Ditto with "democracy".

I sincerely hope I never have to live in a "Democracy". Democracies suck big time.

I will stick with a representative republic, thank you very much.

06-17-2004, 01:09 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">

I will stick with a representative republic, thank you very much.

I'm with you. To me a socialism is the theft of private property by force, and all the lofty intentions in the world don't make a bit of difference.

06-17-2004, 01:54 PM
That is one of the big problems with the Canadian system. It is considered a democratic form of government as we have free elections with multiple choices. The problem is that it is not actually representative. When a member is elected to the House of Commons he has absolutely no freedom to vote on legislation according to the wishes of his constituents. He must follow the direction of the Prime Minister and vote the same way or he will be tossed from the party. The only exception is in the case of a seldom declared "free vote", usually on matters of conscience like abortion etc. The only other time he may vote how he chooses is if he has proposed a "Private members bill" and it actually comes to a vote, an even rarer occurence.

Worse yet we have a senate that is not elected but appointed. It is a rubber stamp society and is used as a patronage reward for the party faithful. Once appointed it is a life term and they don't even have to show up.

Then we have the Governor General who speaks for the Queen and is responsible for approving all legislation in the name of the Queen, also a rubber stamp job.

The bottom line is that the system is not representative at all, it has no checks and balances with the exception of the Supreme Court. But, the Supreme Court is only called to interpret law, not make law.

This means the power resides with the Prime Minister and his cabinet whom were not even voted for at all by the overwhelming majority of Canadians.

Another "feature" of the system is that if my representative is not sitting with the party in power then he has no chance at all to propose legislation. He can do nothing.

Just to top it off the House has about the same level of decorum as a monkey house at a zoo.

It's a joke, a bad joke.

Dave Opincarne
06-17-2004, 06:39 PM
WS-Hence my contempt for revolutionarys of any stripe. Always ready to fight the status quo but never prepared to do anything constructive. Some mildly irritating, some downright dangerous. My point was that setting aside what lables may get atached to socio-political movements (people can call themselves whatever they want, it's just another form of marketing) (true) socialism is not the same as (true) communism and neither one has ever gotten much of a chance in any country that has defined itself as communist. Just good marketing to do so, and say that you're taking action for the good of all. Bull ****! Marx had a nice utopian idea going except for one thing, he failed to take into account human nature.

06-17-2004, 09:33 PM
Thats also my feeling,if somebody says he's doing you a favor he usually ain't.

In my opinion the only place where true communism exists(get ready here it comes)Is the Amish community and formerly the Shakers.You may be wondering what I'm smoking,but here me out.It basically is the definition of communism,except there is a strong underlying base of healthy religious ethic and lifestyle that acts as a counter to human nature,it also means that the human being as a whole was addressed,unlike Stalinist Russia,there was no attempt at producing a spiritually bankrupt society.The Shakers almost did the same,but they went a foul by not addressing the basic desire for men and women to co-habitate and begin families,as a result they died out.

06-17-2004, 09:41 PM

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 09-02-2004).]

06-18-2004, 05:33 PM
And another thing about visits from BATF ... Oops. Wrong thread? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

J Tiers
06-18-2004, 05:45 PM

I assume the Canadian system was based on the British system, with the Senate as equivalent to the "house of lords"?

The US congress is not that different in reality, since it does end up as a "back scratching society", where "loyalty" may be rewarded, but "disloyalty" to the party is definitely punished.

A few have escaped that, Paul Wellstone for one. But in his case, his politics probably made him a "bellwether" for that end of the Dems, since he was a few miles left of Ted Kennedy on most issues. Thus, he could do whatever, and still be considered "mainstream" with the folks who counted.

Most must vote with their party most of the time. Probably there is less ultimate vote coercion than with the parliamentary system, since as you know the US parties do not "form governments" based on congressional elections, with "coalitions" etc. That makes party affiliations somewhat looser.

06-18-2004, 06:25 PM
It will be interesting to see what happens here on the 28th. The two main parties, the Liberals and the Conservatives are even in the polls. If that is how it washes out in the election then the New Democrats (not far from the Greens) will probably hold the swing vote. Except, we also have the Bloc Quebcois and they don't often agree with the New Democrats. It would be absolutely hilarious if it came out exactly even with a single Green or even Independent holding the swing vote.

Of course that would result in another election in short order. The time between elections here is not fixed.

Reminds me of Judge Begbie when the rope broke when they tried to hang a man during the gold rush here. Judge said to hang him again. Rope broke again. Judge said "keep hanging him til he's dead"

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 06-18-2004).]

06-18-2004, 08:44 PM
Hmmmm.... why are there no shrines on those beaches in France commemorating the thousands of fallen German soldiers?
Perhaps because people don't have fond memories of their hated invaders.

I'm not faulting the average German conscript for pulling the trigger in order to save his own ass. I think most people would have done the same thing, in his position.
War is not exactly a pretty business. It's a bloody, ugly thing that sometimes must be done. Sometimes it's done just for political/financial gain. Do you know how much I can do about it? Jack Sh!t. A countries citizens are at the mercy of it's government and military.

Perhaps we should condemn Switzerland for being neutral. Oh, that's right. They're European, they can do no wrong. Let's just condemn America. Since we Americans are such bastards,let's cancel the payment of all foreign aid. Surely other nations wouldn't want to accept money or food from "Ugly Americans". Wonder how quickly world opinion of the US would change from condemnation to ass kissing if DC stopped feeding and financing the world?

06-18-2004, 09:03 PM
Almost forgot, Xylene is an excellent octane booster. Expensive, but effective. Keeps those valves and spark plugs clean, too.
Learned that one from a car mag years ago.
Turns out Berryman B12 Chemtool is made of Xylene, Toluene, MEK, Acetone, Isopropanol, and Ethanol(or was it Methanol? Don't remember. It's been a few weeks since I added a bottle to my gas tank at fill up).

Potassium Nitrate?? Is that Saltpeter, or does memory fail me(yet again)? He was only charcoal away from being able to make black powder.
I seem to recall a farmer telling me that Saltpeter was good for killing and rotting tree stumps. Seems he said it was cheaper at hardware stores. Don't know. I like drilling holes into the stumps, pouring in waste cooking oil, letting it sit for a week or so, and burning the stumps. So I'm too cheap to buy the Saltpeter stuff at the stores.

I went to school with a guy who claimed to have made smoke pots in high school by mixing sugar and saltpeter, pouring them into glass(remember those) peanut butter jars and lighting it. He claims it melted the jars.
Don't know if it's true or not. I never tried any of that stuff. My dad would have applied sufficient corporal punishment to prevent any further transgressions.
Plus I was busy with school, cars, girls, hunting, fishing, and work as a teenager to waste time fooling around with any pyrotechnics.
Plus I HATE getting burned. So why do I like home foundry so much??
Hell, if I'd had a lathe, mill and foundry as a kid, I wouldn't have had time for fishing, work, cars, or girls.

"I can't get a girl, cause I ain't got a car. I can't get a car, cause I ain't got a job. I can't get a job, cause I ain't got a car. So I'm looking for a girl with a job and a car."

Alice Cooper
Lost in America

06-18-2004, 09:06 PM
Thats basicaly what I've been preaching for years,but I would rather see the UN get cut off,take back that $15billion we give thm and give it back to the taxpayers.I hate to tell the libs,but you can not argue that Bush proved the UN to be impotent and usless,the latest is the revelation that the european way of dealing with rouge nations like Iran and their nuclear programs DO NOT WORK,same system that was in place between the gulf wars,you know the one,call them up months ahead of time and tell them we're going to inspect,then when we get told no at the front gate go home with a shrug of the shoulders and our hats in hand,total waste of time and uterly stupid.Whats worse with Iran they are doing it again,maybe somebody like Israel will just wipe out the site and save us a bunch of trouble.

Now another American has been beheaded,I wonder what the response will be?It should be that we kill the Al-qieda that they wanted released,but only we can't because that would be un-sanctioned treatment of prisoners. Rant mode off.

06-18-2004, 11:41 PM
Hi Weird,

Your views are very common. It's kind of like a mob view that is easy for a demagogue to stir up and it is dangerous because it isn't thought out.

I also read your post a while back where you explained your view of Howard Dean as a demagogue. I think if you had the time and could see things in context, you wouldn't hold that view. Although this was the way that the press portrayed him.

I wonder how you feel about what happened in Iraq in Abu Ghraib and other places. Do you feel like Rush Lindbaugh that this was just like "hazing" and the 37 or over 40 people who died while being tortured were not real people, and the Americans who are now being publically executed, in no small part because of these STUPID actions of our President, should result in killing innocent people.

We are on a slippery slope and our Democracy is also being threatened.

Today the Republicans have put forth a bill to "Privatize" the INS. The company that is going to decide who can and who can't come and go to the united states is an "Outsourced" company that doesn't pay taxes because they are in a foreign country.

So what nation is going to make these choices for us? I find this unbelievable.


06-19-2004, 01:33 AM
As far as immigration, I wish they would just close the flood gates, and say no. By 2050, Whites will be a minority in the USA.
But the Democrats want the flood gates open, because they know the minorities for the most part vote for them.
Abu Ghraib, good, if those Iraqi's are the same ones that are dancing in the streets every time an American is killed, they should be tortured to death. Its not on American Soil, and they aint US citizens, our bill of rights don't apply to them, they are the enemy.
In ww2, we used to fire bomb civillians, I dont know why we stopped.
All this political correctness is getting in the way of getting things done efficiently and quickly.
SPare me your liberal rant about the Human Race. Humans are not perfectable, and what matters in the end is that we are alive and the enemy is not.
I see squirrels outside, Squirrels dont have the Squirrel U.N. to monitor what other squirrels are doing around the world. When a Squirrel has a problem with another Squirrel, he simply bites its balls off.
I don't see Rev. Al Squirrelton fighting for the rights of minority squirrels, or Squirrel Hollywood trying its best to throw a Squirrel Election to it's own idea's, Or Squirrel Moore releasing propaganda that can only compare to Nazi propaganda films.
In case your wondering,I only had 1 beer, and I'm mad the Yankees lost and Redsox won.

06-19-2004, 02:04 AM
Your last post defines you.
Unless you recant, I will never consider you a person worthy of talking to.
But I know Billh that you have so much more to offer. You might be like some of my friends that can not escape the views they were raised with. That can stand until IT CAN NOT STAND. I wouldn't let you through my door. I'll hear your opinion, and I will argue the points, but I will not tolerate the false arguments that your views are based on. I'll debate you on it any time. Just focus on one particular and I'll have at it. Beyond that your prior statement is so outrageous that I hope it isn't what you want as your enduring credo.

You should think about the holocast. I don't have the time right now to really explain to you why you are wrong, but I hope some one does. Your position is wrong and I hope that I can show you that you are wrong. If I could do that, I would have done something for not only you, but the world.


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 06-19-2004).]

06-19-2004, 02:14 AM
You miss my point Spence, Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
In the end nothing else matters but survival.
I wont recant, it's nice if we could all get along, but theres sicko's out there that can't be reasoned with, and thats whom my philosophy is to be used againt.

06-19-2004, 02:17 AM
THe holocaust, yes lets talk about that.
I am certain of one thing, the Jews will never allow that to happen again. Again, my philosophy.

06-19-2004, 02:27 AM
Well Bill,
I think there is hope for you. You are intelligent and I am sure you relate to people of all races without trouble.

Bill there is so much that you don't know.

I have read what you have written for many months so I know you are a rational person.

I can tell you things that you do not know and it will shake your understanding of the world.

Do you think that George W. Bush is in any way related to the Nazis?

Lets talk. Maybe this will enhanse your opinion of him or not. Just let me know where you stand.
Anyway I don't take this personally although I think this is one of the most important things I can do. Please write to me directly at sjorgensen7@comcast.net or call me at 801-243-0433.

Spence. Not a communist, not anti-gun, and not anti-American. I'm only against what is WRONG.


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 06-19-2004).]

John Stevenson
06-19-2004, 03:19 AM
116 post now and not one on topic including mine.
Have you noticed how long OT post get compared to metalworking ones ?
Perhaps Village Press ought to stop publishing metalworking mags and go into soapbox mags, there is obviously a better market for them.

If the average post takes 10 minues to think about it and type it after reading the previous ones, bearing in mind that as they get longer you have more to read then so far between us all we have wasted nearly 20 hours on a post of no consequence.

In 20 hours I could have found at least 8 square foot of floor space.
Alistair could have painted 3 machines.
Evan could have come up with something very nicely made and usefull.
George could have found another treasure.
Jerry could have got back from the outher side of Galveston and IBEW would have been distracted by shiney things at least 80 times and Spence could have put some of that hard earned knowledge he's obtained here to good use in the shop.

Where did I put the brush ?

John S.

[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 06-19-2004).]

06-19-2004, 07:33 AM
Spence your behaving like a typical liberal,the minute you enter a conversation with someone who has a view point you don't like you immeadiately be come condesending and arogant to take attention off the fact you know nothing about the truth of the issues at hand.

#1 the Abu scandal is just that a scandal nothing more,the people involved are being punished,and further more the number of deaths you mentioned is totally wrong,it was two in Iraq and one in Afganistan,the number you quoted is off Al-jezera.quit defending murderers,they think much less of you than you do of them.The latest American death is the direct fualt of the people who did it and the MEDIA,too much attention paid to hostage taking makes it an effective weapon.I noticed that Al-quiada's top man in Suadi is dead,good happy day for us,except NPR will have a memorial for him all day today.You can say all you want about Abu,but none,I repeat none of the prisoners involved show any scars,non of them were beheaded,big difference.
#2 Howard Dean is just as if not more crooked and corrupt than John Kerry,interestingly enough it was the end biting in the LIBERAL media and from the democratic party who destroyed his chances.Also interestingly enough he DOES have real links to ENRON where Bush does not(and before you start the libs have had 5 years to dig something up on Bush and nothing has been found,compared to a Google search on Howie)
#3 Mob mentality,thats rich,thats the one thing the libs are expert on.
#4 The UN is a crooked and corrupt organizaion that in the imortal words of Reagan " BE RELEGATED TO THE ASH HEAP OF HISTORY",just as a pop quiz,name one good thing that the UN has done in the last 20 years?Kinda hard huh?But it is really easy to name all the bad,allowing genocide to take place in Bosnia,allowing genocide to take place in Rowanda,allowing genocide to take place in Chad,allowing genocide to take place in Sudan(currently),participating in corruption in the oil for food program(that was your and my money)doing a horrible job of arms inspection in the past and currently and the list goes on and on.

So maybe instead of defending an indefensable position you might join the fight and make a difference.I know your more inteligent than that Spence,I hate to see smart people be taken in by all that liberal nonsense.

J Tiers
06-19-2004, 09:06 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pgmrdan:
One of the guys here at work just got questioned by 2 ATF agents.

This morning he called around looking for some potassium nitrate. He wanted to mix in some sulfur to make some smoke bombs for the upcoming holiday. One of the places he called turned him in.


Strikes me as the actions of a dumb$!it, frankly, particularly when the stuff is fairly easy to come by legally without a fuss. (no I won't tell where).

But a good lesson.

Probably a very good reason to be careful what you make for "aquaintences of friends of friends". I have heard of a few 'sting" operations with the federales trying to get folks to make prohibited items or mods to post ban weapons, etc.

That might be lessened now, with the emphasis on explosives, etc. No time for simple weapons violations?

But the federales are so confused (not a political condemnation, a bureaucratic one), they might do almost anything. Best not to wake a dog by pulling its tail.

06-19-2004, 11:40 AM
I will tell you where to get it (KNO3) since you can't make a respectable b0mb with it any way. It is used to make stumps easy to burn out. Your local feed store has it.

Now, Potassium perchlorate is a different story.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 06-19-2004).]

06-19-2004, 01:09 PM
Isn't that used in rocketry?

06-19-2004, 02:44 PM
Yeah. You mix it with sugar and something else(I'm not gonna say lest I be accused of providing info to bad people) and you get a good solid propellant. The only drawback is, it is highly absorbent and is ruined in the presents of moisture.

06-19-2004, 02:45 PM
Yup, space shuttle boosters, potassium perchlorate and aluminum dust with binders and stabilizers.

06-19-2004, 02:47 PM
The white chalky film on brick buildings is potassium nitrate.

06-19-2004, 02:55 PM
I think some model rocket engines use blackpowder with more of one ingredient... Sulfur? that slows down the burn rate.
I always liked the Aerotech rocket motors myself.
I got a 7 ft tall rocket in my closet for my reloadable rocket motor. F and G size motors.

[This message has been edited by BillH (edited 06-19-2004).]

[This message has been edited by BillH (edited 06-19-2004).]

06-19-2004, 03:53 PM
Dear Weird,

I’d like to rebut what you said, without taking too much of everyone’s valuable time. I think if I can help stem the tide of attitudes that tends to ignore the facts, I will have done something that has some value in the shop of ideas. I don’t want to sound arrogant or condescending to anyone. I merely think it is my civil duty to tell you the truth.
#1 Abu Ghraib is more than just that a scandal. You have to recognize how much damage has been done to the chances of success that we might have had, to win the hearts and minds in Iraq. Another aspect that bothers me is that these people who were treated this way where not even terrorists. 44,000 Iraqis have been “swept up” and questioned and almost all were not suspected of any crime. They eventually get released after being subjected to brutality and torture. My numbers are not from Al Jazera but from the U.S. Military officials. As of the end of May, 2004 37 have died showing physical signs of torture. Here are a couple of links if this one slipped by you. Maybe Fox news isn’t telling you everything.
Edinburgh News 5/22/2004 (http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=584932004)
Suspicion Surrounds Death of Iraqi Scientist (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0528-07.htm)
The people perpetrating this do not appear to be being punished as you’ve said. In fact many of the perpetrators that have been involved in the torture and rape of young male Iraqis and females are not being prosecuted. In the case of John Israel and Stephan Stephanowitz they remain outside the law. (Toguba Report) And contrary to what you believe these were not isolated incidents but pervasive activity in prisons throughout Iraq. The behavior began after George Bush was given advice that he could authorize torture. The information has been published and Ashcroft may be charged with Contempt of Congress for refusing to reveal this in Congressional Hearings.
You said:
“You can say all you want about Abu,but none,I repeat none of the prisoners involved show any scars,non of them were beheaded,big difference.”
You should do a little more research. You don’t know what you are talking about. I’d like to rebut everything else you are wrong about but I’m not sure I have the time. You should watch C-Span once in a while.

06-19-2004, 04:20 PM
Spence, your sense of right and wrong, it is a joke to the people who cut Mr.Johnsons head off. Just go over to www.drudgereport.com (http://www.drudgereport.com) , click on the top link, and see for yourself.
I wish I could watch you try to reason with people like that.
Western Culture is so incredibly different from Eastern Culture, how things are done, it's not going to work. Only thing that is universally accepted is brute force. You can say anything you want, but it don't mean anything.
I understand perfectly now why Saddam Hussein was the way he was. If he was not feared, he would of had 5 to 10 different Clans fighting for power.
My Middle Eastern Culture class teacher I had 2 semesters ago said it best. It's all about power, a power struggle will ensure.
He should know, he used to be Kadafi's personall translator until he tried to overthrow him, but thats another story.

John Stevenson
06-19-2004, 05:16 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SJorgensen:
Dear Weird,

I’d like to rebut what you said, without taking too much of everyone’s valuable time. </font>

But you are taking our time
Look in the address box at the top of your brower. Mine says http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net

Not http://bbs.bleeding heart liberal.net
Not http://bbs.whys my soap box got a wobblie leg.com

There are about five decent machinists groups on the web and 20,327 [ approx ] political groups where people of a fixed mind can try to convince other of an opposite fixed mind to accept what they say.
Rather a pointless pastime and a bit like screwcutting with a lead tool.

Neil, any chance we can get this thread locked please ?

John S.

Dave Opincarne
06-19-2004, 05:31 PM
BillH- That's why I have more respect for Spence than them, infinintly more.

Consider these wise words and grievences:

"...the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them..."

"...For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants ..."

"For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury"

"transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death"

You might also consider the meaning of the words "unalienable rights"

There's a reason they're called HUMAN rights, not American or Coalition rights.


06-19-2004, 05:46 PM
Yea John,
And the OT means that you aren't going to be reading about metalworking on this thread, so you should skip it if you don't have the time. Don't blame me if you don't get your chores done. Haven't you got something to do?

John Stevenson
06-19-2004, 06:03 PM
Got to clear the floor to make room for my new toy next week, the German slotter and drag the old one out for Tim leech to collect. A good three hours work there.

I feel it's taking the piss when someone goes to the time and trouble to set a web site up for us to use and then certain people revel in banging drums about something that none of us on this board can do anything about OT or not.

But you are right when you say I don't have to read it. It is a personal choice what post and what authors you care to read. I obviously need to be more selective, thanks for pointing this out.

John S.

06-19-2004, 08:30 PM
Spence,in every prison you will find that according to the prisoners all of them all are innocent,just ask them.In a war zone,can you say for sure that wounds on a prisoners back came from torture or from injuries sustained in combat?I have done my research,the number you mentioned is not a factual figure,it is a preliminary estimate.Consider also,is it possible that maybe some of them or even a good percentage maybe self inflicted?Now consider the number that you yourself are talking about,lets set it high at 300,given the number of prisoners captured,detained and realesed was 38,000 that makes the total less than .8% kinda low to me,I'll bet thats lower than it is here,also if you had linked to one I posted several weeks ago you could have read the report from one of the prisoners in the photos,he said he still believed that most Americans are good people,his desciption was "a small dot on a large sheet of paper"seem he has more faith in this country than liberals do.

The Abu scandal is blown way out of scale,the people involved are being punished and sent to prison them selves including the general in charge.I fully realise that this whole contraversy is nothing but an ill-concieved sceme to possibly impeach Bush(I did read about the law proffesors)by typical left wing communist trash,the statement has been made that the only place communism is alive and well is in American universities,I see it is very true.
How many time does this have to happen before you and the rest of left wing America gets the picture-
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=www.dsscomputer.com/911/images/9-11-i.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dsscomputer.com/911/&h=600&w=401&sz=31&tbnid=sWGfzxd_V6AJ:&tbnh=131&tbnw=88&st art=5&prev=/images%3Fq%3D9/11%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 06-19-2004).]

06-19-2004, 09:08 PM
So Spence,I ask you,where were all you people who now complain,while this was going on,look I dare you-
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=members.cox.net/free_iraq/Tortured%252007.jpg&imgrefurl=http://members.cox.net/free_iraq/Free_Iraq.htm&h=416&w=288&sz=7&tbnid=maiwts2DT i0J:&t (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=members.cox.net/free_iraq/Tortured%252007.jpg&imgrefurl=http://members.cox.net/free_iraq/Free_Iraq.htm&h=416&w=288&sz=7&tbnid=maiwts2DTi 0J:&t) bnh=121&tbnw=84&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSaddam%2527s%2Btorture%2Bchambers%26h l%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG

Where were you when Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own people?Where were you when he denied ALL rights to his people?In fact were where all the liberals while this was going on?Funny now that we decide to do something about it you say its wrong,its imoral,we shouldn't be there,Bush shouldn't be president and on and on.

So you sit back,claim to be an American,you critisize and complain,attack and mock this country and your fellow country men all the while being a hypocrite talking about how we should understand why they hate us,why they want to kill us,Saddam wasn't breast fed as a child,its not his fualt and on and on and on and you ignore the truth because the truth hurts.
The images I linked to are the ones the press has not shown but twice since 9/11,the reason is they want us to forget,they want us to elect one of their left wing cronies,they want to elect THEIR PRESIDENT,and what is the best they can do?John Kerry,a man who has admitted to doing far worse than anything you liberals now consider torture.

If you want to continue to believe the lies go ahead,but I hope the next attack isn't where you live.

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 06-19-2004).]

06-19-2004, 10:46 PM
Hasnt this post went on long enough? There are plenty of forum's to argue whether or not Bush,Kerry,Americans or the rest of the world are wrong and you are right. Get over it and talk some machining.

Dave Opincarne
06-19-2004, 11:13 PM
I'm willing to go along with that, but when stong views are exspresed that I find objectionable I feel obligated to respond. I won't be guilty of the sin of ommision. The only solution that I can see is to not start OT threads in a machine forum. Unless all viewpoints agree to abstain I can see no other option than to put up with the status quo.


06-20-2004, 12:51 AM
There is nothing wrong with strong views as long as the debate doesn't turn to attacks on each other. That is the only thing that I don't like about it. You will never hear me ask to close a topic down because I don't like the message. I just don't want may country brought down to the level of the brutal countries we have all hated. I am a Cowboy that wants to wear the white hat. I want to rescue the fair maiden. I don't want to look the other way when my nation is going wrong. This is the American thing to do. In a representative Democracy this is the right thing to do. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
We can't win anything by becoming as bad or worse than our enemies. That isn't what my country is about. There is nothing wrong with bringing criminals to justice. If someone has committed a war crime, I don't care if he is a Democrat or a Republican or President of the United States.
I'm now researching a story of a massacre of 3000 Taliban that had surrendered in the war in Afganistan. The documentary was produced by Jamie Doran in a film called "Afgan Massacre the Convoy of Death." This is bad. They were headed to be interogated by the CIA, but there were too many. Sealed inside shipping containers without ventilation for transportation over 4 days. We wouldn't allow anyone to do that to cattle in the U.S.
I like machining and designing and invention. I am also interested in the world around me. My eyes are wide open, and I share these things so that people are also informed and I hope they look into it themselves. I'll give you guys a break for a while. Drop by the www.generalconversation.com (http://www.generalconversation.com) site or the www.democracyforamerica.com (http://www.democracyforamerica.com) site for good information.

[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 06-20-2004).]

06-20-2004, 01:31 AM
Well, I don't know anything about explosives except that I refuse to go near them. I've seen the news footage from all the war torn parts of the world for enough years to know that they can cause horrific mutilation and death. I'm not interested in experiencing either. I know that it requires proper training and careful use to utilize such items in a safe, legal manner, such as building demolition.
I'm not interested in destroying things for a living or for a hobby. I'd rather fix things for a living. OK, I'd REALLY rather make crucibles of molten metal for a living, and maybe even pour them into useful castings. But foundry, for me, is just a hobby, like machining. I'm nowhere near good enough to get paid for it. Unless you're stupid enough to want to pay me to turn piles of scrap metal into piles of metal ingots. If you are, I will be glad to do it. Don't know what it is about foundry work. I just love to throw chunks of scrap metal into a crucible and watch it turn from garbage into shiny liquid metal. Oh, damn. I must have caught IBEW's affinity for shiny.
Foundryitis must be contagious. The bug bit me the first time I melted wheelweights with a torch. It's very relaxing.
Anyway, half my life has been spent fixing and learning/training to fix things. That's where my schooling and experience are invested. Can't complain. I like fixing things. Troubleshooting keeps my mind busy. I love to read, and service manuals feed my hunger when I'm not reading about history, how to, etc, etc.
See, I can leave Captain A$$hole locked up sometimes. I don't try to pi$$ people off, it just comes naturally.
I'm not really an a$$hole, but I play one on TV.

Back to ATF(sort of), whatcha like better, Dexron or Type F?
Conventional, Synthetic, or Semi-synthetic?
B&M or TCI?
I'm a synthetic fan, myself. Like type F if I'm using conventional. And I'm a believer in micronic transmission filters and external coolers.
What say Ye?

06-20-2004, 02:44 AM
What say Ye.

If I had a video camera with me at all times, I would have extremely convincing proof that big foot exists. Next time I go to Cook county in Washington State, I hope I have a mini DV camera.

06-20-2004, 08:35 AM
Okay,go ahead Spence,bury your head in the sand,reguardless of what you say or believe Iraq DID have a connection to Alquida and that is what this war is about,apparently you are now calling President Putin a liar as well and not reading the media.

Oh,and maybe to save you some trouble,the Taliban massacre thing,was under the watch of the Northern alliance,not US troops,get your facts straight.

Realising that nothing anybody will say or do will ever convince you that what we are doing is right,and realising that you claim to champion the truth,while you ignore it,then this nation is doomed.

06-20-2004, 11:42 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jaymo:
Well, I don't know anything about explosives except that I refuse to go near them.... they can cause horrific mutilation and death.
I'm not interested in destroying things .</font>

Explosives aren't evil, and they aren't always used to destroy things. Think of them as a bigger hammer. In fact, they have uses in manufacturing, and in particular metal working. Ever hear of metal forming using explosive dies? Shaped charges are used to make metal conform to a die cavity.

Dave Opincarne
06-21-2004, 12:06 AM
Oh for crying out loud x39! This is an OT thread, would you please stay off topic! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif


06-21-2004, 02:08 AM
Speaking of prisons.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3812713.stm
I like his one quote - "What happened to me is something that should never have happened to any American soldier." Apparently he thinks it`s ok if it had happened to someone who wasn`t an american soldier.

06-21-2004, 02:37 AM
Actually, I don't think this thread should be locked or deleted. There has been some discourse of a not so gentlemanly nature but for the most part it has been civil. (OK, that's a good one for the PCs. Gentlebeingly nature? Kinda like a personhole cover.)

This board has people from all walks and all stripes of life. I don't mind indulging in a bit of controversial discourse myself from time to time although I make it a steadfast rule to NEVER use personal invective. When that is done then the argument is lost and it has just degenerated to name calling. Ya want to debate anything except religion? Bring it on...

But, I really would like to know more about high speed centerless turning.


John Stevenson
06-21-2004, 03:12 AM
Evan,This is a handy tool for between centre turning

John S.

06-21-2004, 03:27 AM
Bloody hell John, would you please resize that picture to a more reasonable size? Besides, I said "centerless turning".


06-21-2004, 07:37 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dave Opincarne:
Oh for crying out loud x39! This is an OT thread, would you please stay off topic! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

LOL! I'll try harder in the future. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

06-21-2004, 05:48 PM
Oops! I forgot about them being used for metalforming. Told ya I don't know squat about them. I tend to stay away from any destructive/dangerous(ATF considers them to be destructive devices IIRC) devices I don't understand.

Dave Opincarne
06-21-2004, 10:26 PM
OK, while we're on the subject, we EDH a lot of our frogs. EDH is Explosive Depth Hardening. Sheets of C-4 are layed out on the tread surface, the whole casting is covered in sand and set off. This is done several times then a day is spent trying to straighten it out with a 400 ton press. The casting wall compresses 1/32"! We have started adding ribs to offset the force of the blast since it was actualy cupping the tread surface of the frog. I'm told the EDH opperation literaly has to account for every square inch of explosive sheet.


06-21-2004, 11:08 PM
Dave, I'm sure you're right about accounting for explosive material. I worked on a blasting crew for a while about twenty years ago, and even then record keeping was pretty fussy. Contrary to popular conceptions, it wasn't a very exciting job.