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wierdscience
09-22-2015, 02:19 AM
VW has officially stepped in it-

http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018

I wonder how many other mfgs are fudging the numbers to pass regs?

flylo
09-22-2015, 06:36 AM
Wehave such strict emmisions & you can't see 20' in the cities in china, hows that a level playing field & chinas pollution make it over here by wind or container.

Arcane
09-22-2015, 06:55 AM
I can't imagine how much this is going to cost Volkswagen by the time all is said and done. The lawyers are going to have a field day though and lots of them will be buying nice new cars because of it...but probably not Volkswagens.

The thread at TDIClub talking about it:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448053

ikdor
09-22-2015, 07:50 AM
VW might be the only one doing it for the SCR system, but I am positive all of them are doing it for the normal emission cycle. At least they used to, as cycle beating was not specifically mentioned in the rule book and thus not illegal. Perhaps they expanded the rule book with special anti cycle beating legislation.

I have personally written the code to pass a type approval noise test by modulating the throttle signal.

Igor

bborr01
09-22-2015, 08:37 AM
A few years ago it was the Japanese auto makers lying about horsepower ratings on their cars. Now Germans lying about emissions. Lying doesn't seem to have the same stigma as it used to.

Brian

J Tiers
09-22-2015, 08:46 AM
Dunno what it was, but that Jalopnik site is the slowest ever. Thought I was on a phone modem. Thought it had bricked the win8.2 tablet.

Interesting, but not going back there.

rythmnbls
09-22-2015, 10:57 AM
Dunno what it was, but that Jalopnik site is the slowest ever. Thought I was on a phone modem. Thought it had bricked the win8.2 tablet.

Interesting, but not going back there.

Loaded in less than a second here.

Probably a slow device between you and the site.

Steve.

wierdscience
09-22-2015, 11:10 AM
Wehave such strict emmisions & you can't see 20' in the cities in china, hows that a level playing field & chinas pollution make it over here by wind or container.

Personally I think our vehicles in the developed world are clean enough.The law of diminishing returns applies to pollution controls as well.Just because a politician or activist gets up on a stump and sets 50mpg by xxxx year doesn't mean we need to do it.

A.K. Boomer
09-22-2015, 11:45 AM
This type of corruption just blows me away, it's not small potato's - it's huge, it's intentionally deliberate and down right "sneaky" but it's just shocking they would even make an attempt in this way, something like this was bound to be found out...

It's the equivalent of one of us having a job that requires a drug test and we pull the ole switcheroo with our urine sample, only to find out that the lab report now states that were pregnant,,, "your fired" would not be all that big of a surprise...
now not only have you lost your job - you just found out the wify's pregnant and your going to have a new pup to support... Nice....

Black Forest
09-22-2015, 11:48 AM
This type of corruption just blows me away, it's not small potato's - it's huge, it's intentionally deliberate and down right "sneaky" but it's just shocking they would even make an attempt in this way, something like this was bound to be found out...

It's the equivalent of one of us having a job that requires a drug test and we pull the ole switcheroo with our urine sample, only to find out that the lab report now states that were pregnant,,, "your fired" would not be all that big of a surprise...
now not only have you lost your job - you just found out the wify's pregnant and your going to have a new pup to support... Nice....

And you had a vasectomy two years before. Now that's a suprise!

A.K. Boomer
09-22-2015, 11:56 AM
And you had a vasectomy two years before. Now that's a suprise!

there ya go - nothing like throwing a little salt in the wound too while your at it lol

wierdscience
09-22-2015, 12:56 PM
there ya go - nothing like throwing a little salt in the wound too while your at it lol

Could be worse,your folks could tell you that you were really born female and that really is YOUR baby :eek:

oil mac
09-22-2015, 01:02 PM
Whatever you all say to the contrary guys "We are all screwed!"

gcude
09-22-2015, 01:35 PM
Maybe VW could/should change their name to Armstrong Motors (Lance). :rolleyes:

John Stevenson
09-22-2015, 01:43 PM
Storm in a tea cup.
Been done before and will be done again.
Millions wiped off the share price but odds on it will bounce back as vested interests have their money in these shares, not Joe public.

They reckon that millions of cars will be recalled but talking to two people who have cars affected ?? by these revaluations they are happy with the car in general and both have said if it means being chipped to conform and loose power etc they won't answer the recall.

Remember a recall is voluntary.

janvanruth
09-22-2015, 01:59 PM
vw has done nothing wrong
they fixed it so the car would give the best results in test circumstances
they never claimed the same results for every day use

J Tiers
09-22-2015, 02:17 PM
They reckon that millions of cars will be recalled but talking to two people who have cars affected ?? by these revaluations they are happy with the car in general and both have said if it means being chipped to conform and loose power etc they won't answer the recall.

Remember a recall is voluntary.

NOPE. Not voluntary. Not unless you don't want to renew your license plates. Can be made a condition of renewal, in a case like this. Particularly in a non-compliant area, for instance right here where I am.

It's well known that european standards are lax and don't come close to US ones. But your pollution ends up in Russia, so who would even notice?

Mike Hunter
09-22-2015, 02:23 PM
So bottom line is that VW was trying to give the customer better perfromance while lying to the government?

I dont have a problem with that.

Joe Rogers
09-22-2015, 02:25 PM
Yeah but the gubmint is the one with the big stick here...
Joe

John Stevenson
09-22-2015, 02:26 PM
I was talking about UK.
We don't renew license plates here. They either last the life of a vehicle or in the case of personalised plates, what you call vanity plates ? they stay with you until handed back.

Both my vehicles have personalised plates, they spell the company initials, and at renewal time I just go on line and pay 30, about $45 for another year.

Sim
09-22-2015, 02:38 PM
Who cares ?
This doesn't make a bit of difference to the owners.
It just shows the emission goals of the green Nazis aren't realistic.

danlb
09-22-2015, 02:42 PM
As a long time hybrid owner, I was astounded when I heard that the TDI was as efficient and as clean as the best hybrids while also being quieter and more powerful. I figured something was odd when the Mythbusters build team did a 5 minute mini-commercial for VW, comparing it against a Prius. The TDI's measurements were quite impressive right up to the end. They sent the TDI on a real world round trip from SF to Las Vegas and back. The mileage was way below the EPA estimates. That struck me as very odd.

It's really difficult to create a powerful and efficient car that is also clean in all the areas that we measure. The hybrids work so well simply because they can turn off the engine when it's not needed. Nothing is cleaner than an engine that is stopped (if you get it to start on the first revolution when you need it.)

I would like to see the VW executives charged with a crime in the same way that a mechanic would be if he fudged the smog tests. Even if it's only 6 months in jail per state, that would add up and send quite a message, wouldn't it?

Dan

Mark Rand
09-22-2015, 02:42 PM
It's well known that european standards are lax and don't come close to US ones. But your pollution ends up in Russia, so who would even notice?

It's only over the last 7-8 years that US diesel has been clean enough to allow contemporary European diesel cars to use without damage. It should also be noted that the civilized world regards CO2 as a pollutant, which the US doesn't seem to.

danlb
09-22-2015, 02:47 PM
Who cares ?
This doesn't make a bit of difference to the owners.
It just shows the emission goals of the green Nazis aren't realistic.


It all depends on where you live. If you find that you are not allowed to sell the car, then you will care a lot.

As for the emission goals, there are cars that do pass without cheating, so they are not that unrealistic.

Dan

wierdscience
09-22-2015, 03:08 PM
It should also be noted that the civilized world regards CO2 as a pollutant, which the US doesn't seem to.

Civilized? Now you're laying it on thick,easily deceived more like it :rolleyes:

Black Forest
09-22-2015, 03:12 PM
Here in Germany you have to have your auto emissions tested and a sticker is applied to the windshield according to the results. You cannot drive your auto into the big cities without the highest level sticker. I don't know about all the big cities but I know for fact that is true in Munich.

PStechPaul
09-22-2015, 03:14 PM
There are quite a few people who have retrofitted cars to full electric for much less than the $37,000 fine possibly imposed on VW. And the latest Tesla is supposed to sell for about that amount. VW could have made an excellent hybrid by using their diesel engine running in the most efficient range, and supplementing the electric motor for maximum power as needed, and otherwise running mostly on battery power, especially in stop-and-go traffic jams where pollution is most severe and electric power is ideal.

Even with the 10-20x pollution levels actually emitted during normal driving, the VW very likely produces less pollution than SUVs and light trucks with monster 300+ HP engines. As gas and diesel fuel prices have dropped in recent years, auto makers have renewed their efforts to sell vehicles based on the "zoom-zoom" mentality and aggressive, competitive high speed driving (always on "closed courses" of course), and efficient vehicles are once again being belittled and de-emphasized.

Once again, corporate greed (along with questionable consumer values) has been identified as a major problem for our society, including our health and economy.

J Tiers
09-22-2015, 03:33 PM
The issue obviously isn't about how clean it is or is not in an absolute sense. Irrelevant. And any how is being referred to as "likely", "probably", etc. Not tested, and the result is irrelevant if over the statutory limit. Whether there are SUVs that are worse (or not) is just noise, really.

The problem is that there were known rules, and apparently VW made a deliberate attempt to evade those rules, by a special test detector. The result is that the tests were fraudulent.

If a football forward decides it's silly to use only his feet, and so picks up the ball to throw into the goal, he can expect to be carded out in short order. Whether or not the rules are silly, or designed to make it harder to play, they are the rules of the game, to which you agree when you play. There are different games where that may be OK, but you aren't playing them.

VW is going to be shown the card. Done.


Here in Germany you have to have your auto emissions tested and a sticker is applied to the windshield according to the results. You cannot drive your auto into the big cities without the highest level sticker. I don't know about all the big cities but I know for fact that is true in Munich.

Testing, sure. What is the actual level of each pollutant allowed, vs US levels? That's the operative question

janvanruth
09-22-2015, 04:49 PM
The issue obviously isn't about how clean it is or is not in an absolute sense. Irrelevant. And any how is being referred to as "likely", "probably", etc. Not tested, and the result is irrelevant if over the statutory limit. Whether there are SUVs that are worse (or not) is just noise, really.

The problem is that there were known rules, and apparently VW made a deliberate attempt to evade those rules, by a special test detector. The result is that the tests were fraudulent.

If a football forward decides it's silly to use only his feet, and so picks up the ball to throw into the goal, he can expect to be carded out in short order. Whether or not the rules are silly, or designed to make it harder to play, they are the rules of the game, to which you agree when you play. There are different games where that may be OK, but you aren't playing them.

VW is going to be shown the card. Done.



Testing, sure. What is the actual level of each pollutant allowed, vs US levels? That's the operative question

The boxer going for a pee every time he is about to be weighed for a match, and in doing so, loosing just enough weight to be in the next lower cathegory is cheating and should be shown the card then?

Charles P
09-22-2015, 06:04 PM
Like the ads always used to say: If only everything in life was as re-lie-able as a Volkswagen....

boslab
09-22-2015, 06:10 PM
It would seem to me that the problem is just basic tax evasion, I think that's what it comes down too although the politics of emmision regulation is a subject that for the most part evades me, CO2 etc, I spent my early life being told that the rainforest were the lungs of the planet, only to find it to be bollocks, the sea supply's the O2, at least that's the last one I'm told, bet that's wrong too, who knows
Electric cars should by my estimation bear the cost of the power plant pollution, pro rata shouldn't they?
I still like steam trains and V8s myself, I don't even want to get into the man made climate change fairy stories, if we were capable of doing it I think we would have already done it, could do with warming up in the UK, save on heating, lol
I don't think the politicians will be happy till cars run on elastic bands, then they will tax rubber
(Btw we pay sex tax in the UK, aka vat on condoms!)
Mark

.RC.
09-22-2015, 06:14 PM
Remember a recall is voluntary.

Depends on what country you are in. In Australia, if a car is built to x design rules, if it does not meet those design rules it is unroadworthy and deregistered until it becomes compliant again. Emission standards are part of the design rules.

J Tiers
09-22-2015, 07:04 PM
The boxer going for a pee every time he is about to be weighed for a match, and in doing so, loosing just enough weight to be in the next lower cathegory is cheating and should be shown the card then?

What wall is THAT off of????? Doesn't make sense.

Wherestmywrench?
09-22-2015, 08:07 PM
Emission tests are a scam so the governments to collect more money from us. The province of British Columbia discontinued them because the data showed that the test where not doing what they where intended to do. The proponents of the test wanted ALL vehicles tested to a standard that vehicles over 10 years old could not pass there fore forcing them off the roads. That did not happen instead the test where based on the emission standards for the year the vehicle was produced. I just took my 03 Pontiac off the road we never did anything special nor replaced parts that had anything to do with the emissions of the vehicle. This vehicle passed every emissions test with out fail. Just keeping your vehicle tuned up is all that is needed.

PStechPaul
09-22-2015, 09:12 PM
The logical way to control emissions is to measure their amount and content, and charge the vehicle owner based on that and the miles driven.

For whatever form you purchase energy, there should be a tax based on the total cost of extracting and processing and delivering that energy. Many people charge their EVs using their own solar energy installations, which involve their own environmental impact. One may argue about the government subsidies for alternative energy versus "pure" capitalistic competition, but oil companies also are massively subsidized, and our military is used to protect their resources.

"It's complicated", but a well-educated public majority should be able to dictate energy policy and take measures to protect the environment and resources we all share and own in common. The problem is that there is much misinformation being presented by powerful interests, and much of the public is gullible.

Paul Alciatore
09-22-2015, 09:18 PM
I am not an expert on boxing rules, but if the rules allow him to pee first then he is OK. And if the rules do not allow that, then he is not. Just read the rules.




The boxer going for a pee every time he is about to be weighed for a match, and in doing so, loosing just enough weight to be in the next lower cathegory is cheating and should be shown the card then?

Paul Alciatore
09-22-2015, 09:21 PM
Does anyone actually know exactly what VW did? Obviously the cars could meet the pollution standards as they did meet them during testing. But for some reason, again not stated what, they choose to turn this mechanism off for non test periods. Perhaps for better mileage? Or some other reason? But just what did they do? What is being turned on and off? And how did the car know when it was being tested and when it was not?

PStechPaul
09-22-2015, 09:37 PM
If you read the comments (second page when I read them), a diesel engine expert explains how higher efficiency and performance is also associated with greater NOx emissions, which can be "scrubbed" by means of chemical additives and filters. Bot those are expensive, and would add cost which would negate VW's competitive advantage against those who "play fair". Since emissions tests are performed according to a rather strict procedure, it is relatively easy to identify the test and adjust parameters accordingly.

justanengineer
09-22-2015, 10:50 PM
One part of me says VW is full of low down dirty $%^*#s for cheating, another really doesn't give a dam bc I've dealt professionally with the frauds at the EPA and the effects of their bunk "science."

ikdor
09-23-2015, 04:20 AM
I think the analogy to the boxer was quite apt. They dehydrate by running in a garbage bag just before the weighing session, then drink two liters of water and compete in the ring while they are actually overweight.
This is just like VW meeting the test requirements but performing different in real life.

The other question is why the NOx emissions are so strict in the US that they require SCRs. For all other emissions they lag the rest of the western world but NOx is much stricter. From the outside it appears to be a measure to protect domestic manufacturers who are years behind on diesel technology for passenger cars.
Forcing consumers with diesels to also fill up with corrosive and hard to find ureum will definitively scare away some customers from the foreign imports.

Igor

janvanruth
09-23-2015, 05:53 AM
What wall is THAT off of????? Doesn't make sense.

Its all about the rules.
It doesnt matter what the weight the boxer is durinng the match, as long as he is the correct weight at the moment of weighing.
It doenst matter what emissions the car has in everyday usage, as long as it has the correct emissions at the moment of testing.
The point being that NO car will have the emissions in every day usage it will have in controlled test circumstances.
The circumstances in every day usage have so much variation between one car and another that it is impossible to controll the emissions all of the time.
That is why there are tests under the same controlled circumstances for all cars of all makes.
Every car has a clever gadget built in, that enables the driver to controll the emissions.

janvanruth
09-23-2015, 06:02 AM
I think the analogy to the boxer was quite apt. They dehydrate by running in a garbage bag just before the weighing session, then drink two liters of water and compete in the ring while they are actually overweight.
This is just like VW meeting the test requirements but performing different in real life.

The other question is why the NOx emissions are so strict in the US that they require SCRs. For all other emissions they lag the rest of the western world but NOx is much stricter. From the outside it appears to be a measure to protect domestic manufacturers who are years behind on diesel technology for passenger cars.
Forcing consumers with diesels to also fill up with corrosive and hard to find ureum will definitively scare away some customers from the foreign imports.

Igor


just like some years ago in europe
spain didnt allow dual steered front wheel axes on trucks
that is untill the biggest spanish truck producer put one in the market
over night the limitation vanished

Ian B
09-23-2015, 06:56 AM
On the "how does the car know when it's being tested" question - from what I read, testing is done on a rolling road. These are FWD cars, so the front wheels will be spinning, while the rear ones stay still. It seems the computer then interprets this as "hey, I'm on a rolling road, maybe someone's checking my emissions - better behave myself!"

I'd never heard of the urea (adblue) injection - this seems to be a US market thing, to meet a specific NOx emission criteria. If it's all about NOx emissions, then maybe vehicles sold outside the USA won't be affected?

Ian

janvanruth
09-23-2015, 07:59 AM
On the "how does the car know when it's being tested" question - from what I read, testing is done on a rolling road. These are FWD cars, so the front wheels will be spinning, while the rear ones stay still. It seems the computer then interprets this as "hey, I'm on a rolling road, maybe someone's checking my emissions - better behave myself!"

I'd never heard of the urea (adblue) injection - this seems to be a US market thing, to meet a specific NOx emission criteria. If it's all about NOx emissions, then maybe vehicles sold outside the USA won't be affected?

Ian

not all vw diesels are 4wd, most of them are not
nothing to do with rolling
tests are done in a specific sequence, the ecu recognizes the sequence

never heard of adblue?
sold at every shell station in europe

Richard P Wilson
09-23-2015, 08:27 AM
not all vw diesels are 4wd, most of them are not
nothing to do with rolling
tests are done in a specific sequence, the ecu recognizes the sequence

never heard of adblue?
sold at every shell station in europe

When Ian said FWD, I think he meant Front Wheel Drive, not Four Wheel Drive.

J Tiers
09-23-2015, 09:24 AM
I think the analogy to the boxer was quite apt. They dehydrate by running in a garbage bag just before the weighing session, then drink two liters of water and compete in the ring while they are actually overweight.
This is just like VW meeting the test requirements but performing different in real life.

The other question is why the NOx emissions are so strict in the US that they require SCRs. For all other emissions they lag the rest of the western world but NOx is much stricter. From the outside it appears to be a measure to protect domestic manufacturers who are years behind on diesel technology for passenger cars.
Forcing consumers with diesels to also fill up with corrosive and hard to find ureum will definitively scare away some customers from the foreign imports.

Igor
This has gotten so political it is time to close it.

No it is not like the boxer.... more like changing the scale to read wrong just for you, so you can be overweight but everyone else has to follow the rules.

NOx is a particular problem here. For you, the problem just drifts over to annoy Putin, so who cares?

I would like to see your numbers on pollutants allowed.

wendtmk
09-23-2015, 09:24 AM
On the "how does the car know when it's being tested" question - from what I read, testing is done on a rolling road. These are FWD cars, so the front wheels will be spinning, while the rear ones stay still. It seems the computer then interprets this as "hey, I'm on a rolling road, maybe someone's checking my emissions - better behave myself!"

I'd never heard of the urea (adblue) injection - this seems to be a US market thing, to meet a specific NOx emission criteria. If it's all about NOx emissions, then maybe vehicles sold outside the USA won't be affected?

Ian

They used to do the "rolling road" here in Maryland, with a flexible pipe attached to the tailpipe. Now, they just plug their computer into the OBD port on the vehicle and read whatever they want from the vehicle's computer.

Like somebody else said, it's basically just a scam, a way of getting money from folks without calling them taxes. It has to be done here in Maryland every two years. My truck is four years old and it's already gone through two "emissions" tests. Takes about 5 minutes from pulling in, to them hooking up to the OBD, downloading the data, and swiping my credit card.

Richard P Wilson
09-23-2015, 10:25 AM
As far as I've found out at the moment, when the car is put on the rolling road, the front wheels drive the rollers but the back wheels are stationary. At this point, the on board all singing all dancing computer thinks '2 wheels not moving, must be in a skid' and starts doing clever things with the transmission and braking to overcome the skid. Then I think it must realise that its not a skid, 'must be a test', and does the naughty stuff, changing engine settings to produce minimum emissions.
What I haven't seen anyone attempt to explain is this:- If the engine is set to minimum emissions as in the test, but the car is being driven on the road, what happens? Is it underpowered or what? Why can't the engine be set to minimum emissions all the time?
If the car is tested on a set of rollers which also drive the back wheels, won't this fool the computer?

Willy
09-23-2015, 11:10 AM
This has gotten so political it is time to close it.

.......................

I would like to see your numbers on pollutants allowed.


Unlike Europe I believe the US does not have separate emission standards for diesel and gasoline powered vehicles, correct me if I'm wrong. Not too familiar with the Euro standards, Euro 6 I believe is the latest implemented in Sept. 2014 I believe.
The US standards are so convoluted you really need to do an exhaustive study on them as there are so many classes and sub-classes in both non-road and on-road emission, then there are all of the engine horsepower divisions.

Some good info however in the two links below, the second is a long read but informative.

http://transportpolicy.net/index.php?title=EU:_Light-duty:_Emissions


http://www.hybridcars.com/will-america-avoid-europes-clean-diesel-problems/

Willy
09-23-2015, 11:53 AM
Perhaps I'm becoming a little jaded, but after having seen decade after decade of some really terrible news about big business's quest for the almighty dollar I realize that their priorities are to the shareholders not to their customers.
So pardon me if I don't get too excited about something all automakers are guilty of. In a year when automakers in the US had one of their best sales years,(2014)16.5 million vehicles sold, they also set records in the number of vehicle recalls, at just shy of 64 million!

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/columns/1504-2014-was-a-year-of-auto-industry-records-and-recalls/

Although I certainly don't condone VW's actions of trading power and mileage (and sales):) for NOX emissions, at least it's not as bad as some of the other fiascoes perpetrated on the American public.
Take for example the GM truck fuel tank debacle that started in 1973. Over 2,000 people burned to death after GM knew of this issue in which the fuel tank was mounted outside of the frame rail in a very vulnerable location.

http://www.autosafety.org/history-gm-side-saddle-gas-tank-defect


GM Vice President Alex Mair sketched a simple shield costing only $23
which was termed "a probable easy fix.


At the heart of GM's resistance to improving the safety of its fuel systems was a cost benefit analysis done by Edward Ivey which concluded that it was not cost effective for GM to spend more than $2.20 per vehicle to prevent a fire death


The "deal" GM struck with the US Justice Dept. is another travesty in this sorry mess.

Excuse me if I do not get overly excited over VW's dieslegate.

justanengineer
09-23-2015, 01:06 PM
The other question is why the NOx emissions are so strict in the US that they require SCRs. For all other emissions they lag the rest of the western world but NOx is much stricter. From the outside it appears to be a measure to protect domestic manufacturers who are years behind on diesel technology for passenger cars.


When you compare apples-apples the US diesel regs have always been ahead of the EU in every category, though you fellas are starting to catch up. We've been shipping diesels one way for decades because of this. This is the actually the cause of the VW troubles - they "cheated" using a method commonly used to cheat EU cert testing. Many OEMs still do exactly that on your side of the pond, on ours quite a few have been busted in years past so know better.



Although I certainly don't condone VW's actions of trading power and mileage (and sales):) for NOX emissions, at least it's not as bad as some of the other fiascoes perpetrated on the American public.
Take for example the GM truck fuel tank debacle that started in 1973. Over 2,000 people burned to death after GM knew of this issue in which the fuel tank was mounted outside of the frame rail in a very vulnerable location.


I've never understood why folks believe that to be such a fatal flaw, and I've owned several of those trucks. There've been much worse designs that folks have had few issues with, aside from the in-cab fuel tanks in prior truck generations, many gasoline powered "heavy light" (1-ton'ish) and medium duty trucks with very similar ride heights had tanks right below the doors, but there was never cause for concern or reports of huge numbers of fires, tho to be fair (but not downplay it) 2k deaths over 15'ish years isn't a huge number by any means.

Willy
09-23-2015, 01:45 PM
I've never understood why folks believe that to be such a fatal flaw, and I've owned several of those trucks. There've been much worse designs that folks have had few issues with, aside from the in-cab fuel tanks in prior truck generations, many gasoline powered "heavy light" (1-ton'ish) and medium duty trucks with very similar ride heights had tanks right below the doors, but there was never cause for concern or reports of huge numbers of fires, tho to be fair (but not downplay it) 2k deaths over 15'ish years isn't a huge number by any means.

To be fair any truck with saddle tanks that I have seen were covered by a different set of guidelines and were constructed of a much heavier gauge of steel than the tin cans used as fuel tanks in light trucks.:)

wierdscience
09-23-2015, 02:22 PM
The other question is why the NOx emissions are so strict in the US that they require SCRs. For all other emissions they lag the rest of the western world but NOx is much stricter. From the outside it appears to be a measure to protect domestic manufacturers who are years behind on diesel technology for passenger cars.
Forcing consumers with diesels to also fill up with corrosive and hard to find ureum will definitively scare away some customers from the foreign imports.

Igor

NOx isn't just a man made "pollutant",it also occurs in nature from a variety of sources.When the EPA was first established my current boss was employed as a civilian engineer by the Surgeon General of the Army.His responsibility was to perform field sampling tests at various military and civilian facilities with a focus on So2 and NOx emissions.

At the time there was no background level data available and the rush was on to produce the data for policy makers so they could set allowable limits for the new EPA regs.There was significant political pressure to get this data moving and available.So my boss and his group of engineers were sent out to do air pollution surveys many of which were in remote nearly unpopulated areas of the country.

What they found was the background levels of NOx were far higher than predicted despite the lack of people and cars.NOx is produced in nature by forest fires,ant and termite mounds and bacterial decomposition.This finding correlated perfectly with the data which demonstrated the areas with dense forests had the highest levels of NOx.

16 months of data collection and compiling and their report to Congress was ready.The heads of the lead science team at the EPA read the data and decided arbitrarily that the data set must be flawed because the result was counter intuitive.So in an "abundance" of caution the allowable level was set unrealistically low and well below background levels for much of the nation.

My boss always said he insisted that any data they collected and any reports they produced be exacting in detail because once it becomes law it may as well be chiseled in stone,because it will never be changed.He was right and political pressure saw to it the data they collected,even though it was correct was ignored.

I'm not sure if the allowable limit has been adjusted since,but if it has chances are it's been reduced further.

wierdscience
09-23-2015, 02:43 PM
To be fair any truck with saddle tanks that I have seen were covered by a different set of guidelines and were constructed of a much heavier gauge of steel than the tin cans used as fuel tanks in light trucks.:)

I found the fuel tank issue to be a bit silly.If you're in a truck that gets T-boned at 60 mph,chances are the tank is gonna split even if it's inside the rail.Same with the class action against Ford for the Crown Vic patrol cars.Most of the accidents involved highway speed rear enders,gee I wonder if velocity and physics could have anything to do with it?

The recall I wanted to see would have been for the GM push connect heater hose fitting that they made from Magnesium(think sacrificial anode).The ones that dissolved away overtime so they tended to split and dump all the coolant on the interstate often times cracking heads and seizing rings.Ask yourself,just why would they make such a thing:rolleyes:

ikdor
09-23-2015, 03:18 PM
I would like to see your numbers on pollutants allowed.

The numbers for CO2 target are for example here:
http://www.unep.org/transport/gfei/autotool/case_studies/apacific/south_korea/cs_au_images/big_CO2_emissions.jpg

It's hard to argue that the US line is not to the right of the ones for the rest of the world.

Igor

John Stevenson
09-23-2015, 04:33 PM
Wouldn't have happened if Al Gore had not invented the Diesel engine......................................

John Stevenson
09-23-2015, 04:40 PM
http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VW2.jpg

Willy
09-23-2015, 06:24 PM
I found the fuel tank issue to be a bit silly.If you're in a truck that gets T-boned at 60 mph,chances are the tank is gonna split even if it's inside the rail.Same with the class action against Ford for the Crown Vic patrol cars.Most of the accidents involved highway speed rear enders,gee I wonder if velocity and physics could have anything to do with it?

The recall I wanted to see would have been for the GM push connect heater hose fitting that they made from Magnesium(think sacrificial anode).The ones that dissolved away overtime so they tended to split and dump all the coolant on the interstate often times cracking heads and seizing rings.Ask yourself,just why would they make such a thing:rolleyes:

It must have been an issue serious enough to stand out like a flaming torch from the hundreds of thousands of motor vehicle incidents to other cars...all with gas tanks.

Yes the GM push connect heater hose fitting is a gem alright. My previous mention of 64 million recalls in one year while horrendous does not even scratch the surface when you take into account all of the engineering misadventures that aren't given recall status like that one.:rolleyes:

justanengineer
09-23-2015, 07:04 PM
The numbers for CO2 target are for example here:

It's hard to argue that the US line is not to the right of the ones for the rest of the world.


We call charts like that "political science" to be polite in our office.

HD diesel standards bc we love our large diesel pickemup trucks. Divide the US row by 1.34 to convert hp to kw.
CO HC NOx PM
US in g/hp-hr 15.5 .14 .02 .01
EU in g/kw-hr 4.0 .16 .46 .01

justanengineer
09-23-2015, 07:12 PM
Yes the GM push connect heater hose fitting is a gem alright. My previous mention of 64 million recalls in one year while horrendous does not even scratch the surface when you take into account all of the engineering misadventures that aren't given recall status like that one.:rolleyes:

I used to love plastic timing gears. NOT!

Seriously tho, recalls aren't all bad. SWMBO gave the dealer her Cobalt for something like 6 weeks last year because of the ignition key recall and their inability to get parts. We had a new Silverado with free gas as a rental, little wonder the dealer's sales went up and IIRC GM's sales last year were up as well despite the epic recalls (or maybe bc of them?).

Rustybolt
09-23-2015, 07:27 PM
but oil companies also are massively subsidized, and our military is used to protect their resources


Fossil fuels are subsidized to the tune of about .28 per 1kw. Wind is over $8.00 per 1kw and solar slightly cheaper. A large part of the fossil fuel subsidy is federally mandated fuel donations to the poor.
As for your other hyperbolic assertion; no they don't.

As for VW?

Meh.

A.K. Boomer
09-23-2015, 07:32 PM
I think it's sad that a company of that magnitude with so many counting on it stooped so low just because of a few upper tier decision making factors,

and this was not "brazen" it was just plain stupid and just a matter of time - almost like and internal sabotage was at work,,,
company just lost 1/3 it's worth overnight...

I got my start on VW's and to tell you the truth there's no luv lost, they have gotten so far away from who they started out as --- they are no longer the "folkswagon" car,,,
they are so boobytrapped specialized that for some models you have to go to the dealer just to buy a quart of oil, if it was not for so many people dependent on them and trying to do a good job regardless I would simply say "choke on it"

Abner
09-24-2015, 10:58 AM
I have a 2006 Jetta TDI - Love the car but I will have to agree with A.K. Specialized oil that if you don't use it the engine will seize - yes it is true. Local dealer constantly trying to up sell. Tires, this , that, even tried to sell me insurance. Sitting in the waiting room a woman asked if I trusted the dealership? She was skeptical.
Next visit a tech came back and said the battery light was on. $150 for test and battery. I just happened to look before getting there and knew it wasn't on. I'm sure the clever tech could have showed me the light. Told them no I would go somewhere else and get it checked. Got back in my car and no battery light. This was over a year ago.
We have decided to move away from the car because of the oil issue and dealership. I do not like the feeling of hostility that being preyed upon makes me feel. Not sure what it will be worth....
Time for a Ford, with normal oil.

Willy
09-24-2015, 11:46 AM
Those that are under the impression that they are required to only use VW's oils to maintain warranty are misinformed. Usually by the dealer.
The requirement to maintain warranty is to use" VW spec oil". It is unlawful for a company to revoke a warranty if you are required to use only their product in order to maintain that warranty. If this is a requirement then the manufacturer of that product has to provide that warranty required product free of charge.
Look up the Magnuson-Moss warranty act.

All automakers set out lubricant specs that are required by that maker for the products that it builds, VW is no different. Show me a new Ford or Chevy that allows any old oil in it's power train components. Not going to happen and justifiably so.

There are a large number of oil suppliers of VW spec oils, don't be duped into believing that the oil can only come from mother Volkswagen.

A quick look brought up this list, I'm sure a more thorough search would bring up more.
Sure you probably won't find it at Walmart but you do have choices.

http://www.my-gti.com/2540/volkswagen-oil-standard-504-00-507-00-approved-oils

A.K. Boomer
09-24-2015, 12:23 PM
Willy --- site is entitled "my GTI" never heard a problem with the GTI's requiring special stuff

Vehicle in question is the Jetta TDI,

My bro owns one and was told the same thing by the dealer that Abner stated - will void warranty and also do not attempt after or engine troubles will shortly follow. high molly additives along with some other special ones they "claim" are what is needed - if it's a simple "fear tactic" by the dealer like you say --- it's working...

Edit; despite my bro following advice to a T --- engine still ate a cam at 90,000 miles --- sweet...

Willy
09-24-2015, 12:40 PM
Sorry AK I was in a hurry. However the question of using only oil from mother Volkswagen remains as I have already outlined it above.
You, your brother, and thousands of others are grossly misinformed if you believe whatever the dealer tells you.

YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO USE THEIR OIL.
Only lubricants that meet their specs, look it up.

MrSleepy
09-24-2015, 12:49 PM
TDI covers quite a large number of variant under the VW umbrella.

My TDI , a 2005 1.9TDI "pumpe deuse" AWX engine code variant takes VW 505.01 spec oil. The Comma brand oil I buy ($40) is a quarter of the price of the VW garage oil.. It also complies with 8 Ford specs for diesel 5-40w oil.

Newer engines require a different oil,but its not much dearer.

Rob

A.K. Boomer
09-24-2015, 12:53 PM
I can see that Willy - that is if it's same spec's and is readily available ---

yet if it is some kind of "fear campaign" for just this particular model then they are doing a damn fine job, and really - who want's to call that bluff esp. the general public that is not going to know a thing about oil ratings in the first place...

Willy
09-24-2015, 01:15 PM
You don't have to be oil smart.
You just have to be wise in the ways of consumer protection laws and rights. Does not matter if it's toaster or a yacht.

MrSleepy
09-24-2015, 01:19 PM
I think this VW f***up will sound the deathnell for diesels in the US,UK,and EU. They are already threatening polution taxes of $16 a day to enter citys in the UK for diesels made before 2006 , and could concievable extend that to all diesels.

My local oil refinery, Total, has spent millions installing new plant and on upgrades in the last 20 yrs to produce these new sulphur free diesels ... so that ever increasing polution targets can be met.

The death of diesel in the US would be good for big oil ...ever tighter regs will force them to invest in cleaner diesel which will diminish profits.

Its good for those carmakers who haven't invested in diesel aswell.

Can ever tightening regulations be met .. eventually the technological advances will halt presumably halting all gas/oil car usage and development.

Maybe if VW reclassified there cars a military vehicles , they could avoid all the emmission target nonsense.(i call it nonsense because I witnessed a jet taking off last week...it produced more soot'n'****e taking off once than my 10yrold TDI ever has or ever will. )

Rob

Mike Amick
09-24-2015, 02:07 PM
but oil companies also are massively subsidized, and our military is used to protect their resources


Fossil fuels are subsidized to the tune of about .28 per 1kw. Wind is over $8.00 per 1kw and solar slightly cheaper. A large part of the fossil fuel subsidy is federally mandated fuel donations to the poor.
As for your other hyperbolic assertion; no they don't.




Your figures are hilarious and misleading. Your breakdown is not so impressive when you look at the
disparity of quantity. Fossil fuel "usage" dwarfs all other energy sources.

You may want to look here (http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/11/26/myths-and-facts-about-the-renewable-fuel-standa/201718#Link4).

Solar and Wind don't even make the chart.

A.K. Boomer
09-24-2015, 03:07 PM
You don't have to be oil smart.
You just have to be wise in the ways of consumer protection laws and rights. Does not matter if it's toaster or a yacht.

Sure - this coming from the "lubrication guy" lol I think you do have to be oil smart too just to find out if you can get acceptable stuff locally,,,
im working on a pontiac vibe (toyota) - no info in the owners manual of what it takes for ATF besides a GM dealer # ----
call up autozone - they tell me they do not show a suitable substitute --- Sorry Willy I don't have it like you got it with fluids and in fact they are becoming more and more specific,

call up the dealer just to find out what they want to rape me ---- does not even matter cuz they don't have any on hand,,, then the guy says - im not supposed to tell you this but since were out castrol transmax will work, but then he adds - in so many words --- but im not positive and "washa my handsa" Nice - so im basically still in the dark...

Joe Rogers
09-24-2015, 03:24 PM
AK...for a 2008 the owners manual calls out :"Automatic Transmission Fluid (meets WS ATF standard, GM Part No. U.S. 88863400, in Canada 88863401)".
Possibly the "meets WS ATF " can help you find another source. Toyota possibly??
Have to work on them since Pontiac is no more. Had a special air bag tool dropped out of thin air so I can't even ship them off to old Pontiac locations...
Joe
edit to add Valvoline MaxLife ATF is crossed as a replacement in the Valvoline propaganda

Rustybolt
09-24-2015, 03:37 PM
I'm using CBO statistics. And the quantity is taken into consideration. The hidden costs of alternative energy sources is enormous.

A.K. Boomer
09-24-2015, 03:56 PM
AK...for a 2008 the owners manual calls out :"Automatic Transmission Fluid (meets WS ATF standard, GM Part No. U.S. 88863400, in Canada 88863401)".
Possibly the "meets WS ATF " can help you find another source. Toyota possibly??
Have to work on them since Pontiac is no more. Had a special air bag tool dropped out of thin air so I can't even ship them off to old Pontiac locations...
Joe
edit to add Valvoline MaxLife ATF is crossed as a replacement in the Valvoline propaganda


Thanks Joe - this is a 2009 here's what the manual states; Use only T-IV automatic transmission fluid GM part #U.S. 88900925

also ---- this vehicle is wacked... transmission dipstick states there is no need to ever change the trans fluid in this vehicle under normal driving conditions ---- that's insane,,,
owners manual states --- if vehicle is driven in the Mountains change trans fluid every 60,000 miles...

cars got only 70,000 miles and fluid is nasty... rear end was pitch black - no info in owners manual about what to use there also although think it's just the common GL-5 --- sure smells like it...

I long for the days when they told you plain and simple what to run ---- it's becoming a gray area just to get you to bring it into the dealer - which in most cases probably does not have a clue either...

Joe Rogers
09-24-2015, 05:53 PM
Same Valvoline crossover PDF says the MaxLife ATF and also Import MV ATF are suitablle.
Hope that helps...
http://www.carquestprofessionals.com/catalogs/chemicals/V-6217%20ATF%20Application%20NON-Laminated%20Guide%206.10.13.pdf
Joe

Willy
09-24-2015, 07:15 PM
Joe has it right. The Valvoline, the AC Delco you mentioned and of course the Toyota WS (world standard) are all compatible.
I believe Amsoil and Royal Purple also offer a compatible product but I'm going from memory here so check first.

The reason there are not more offerings is due to the fact that oils claiming to meet a particular spec must pay a license fee to those that originated the spec, never mind blending a small run of the actual product itself. Not sure if it's GM or Toyota, doesn't matter, the cost with licensing is considerable as the holder of that spec does do audits to verify that those specs are met.
Well at this point were not sure about VW, they may white-out parts of the documents as they see fit.:)

For instance in the case of Chrysler ATF+4 spec transmission fluid the quart of Pennzoil or Chevron that meets that spec and bares the ATF+4 spec on it's label has already had I believe roughly a dollar added to it's cost due to licensing.

In the case of a limited application oil like WS ATF, not many suppliers are willing to step up to the plate in order to produce and distribute to such a small segment of the market.

You're right about the GL-5 diff. fluid, 80w90 or preferably 75w90.

PStechPaul
09-24-2015, 07:36 PM
VW probably mixes some special MEMS nanoparticles in their oil and have a sensor that responds to them. When they are not found in the proper quantity, the ECU computer makes some subtle changes to the engine parameters that greatly reduce its longevity or even cause random catastrophic failures. I think they learned that trick from Microsoft where the system detects changes and reports that the software is not genuine, and may enter a "crippled" state until the issue is resolved. But at least they don't shut off the fan or trash the hard drive, although such measures may have been discussed among managers and engineers.

A.K. Boomer
09-24-2015, 07:51 PM
After you create this sensor it's all just up to programming to get done what you just described --- I'll tell ya --- things are getting weird...

I don't know when everyone else got their start in this field but if you were to tell me this stuff back in 77 I would have thought you crazy lol


Thanks Joe and Willy that's the stuff I went with so should be good...

J Tiers
09-24-2015, 08:50 PM
I was gonna get a battery for my old phone..... it was identical


Except that the Samsung phone would not use it.... said "unsupported battery", and went no further.

tmarks11
09-24-2015, 09:21 PM
I wonder how many other mfgs are fudging the numbers to pass regs?

All of them. Ones the state District Attorneys figure out what a gold mine this is, stand by!

The stated fine for VW was $37k... per car. That probably is more than what the average selling price of those cars was...

This is going to make the fed and states attacks on Microsoft look like peanuts.


They sent the TDI on a real world round trip from SF to Las Vegas and back. The mileage was way below the EPA estimates. That struck me as very odd.
meh. That seems par for the course. The EPA sticker on the vehicle always has seemed like the upper end of the envelope to me. You have to have a really light foot and drive real slow to match it.

wierdscience
09-25-2015, 12:24 AM
It must have been an issue serious enough to stand out like a flaming torch from the hundreds of thousands of motor vehicle incidents to other cars...all with gas tanks.


It got a little attention from some "creative journalism"

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/us/nbc-settles-truck-crash-lawsuit-saying-test-was-inappropriate.html

boslab
09-25-2015, 01:55 AM
The diesel emmisions thing seems to have popped up over here too, the lower emmision cars were more to buy, tax being linked to emmision, the higher the emmision the higher the tax, folk were paying more for lower emmision cars, seems they may have to refund the difference in price plus the cost of increased fuel usage, it's going to cost them, a lot, plus they seem to want the cars rectified and retested, the annual test is $100 on average, that's a lot of testing, don't think this is going away soon, bet the other car manufacturers are a bit twitchy this morning!
Mark

vpt
09-25-2015, 07:44 AM
So would it be a smart move to try and buy up a tdi right now? Like the toyota truck deal where they bought back trucks for 1.5 times their blue book price. Or would the cars be shunned now and not be worth anything because of their image?

Abner
09-25-2015, 07:59 AM
Thanks all for the heads up on other sources of VW Specification motor oil.

fwiw - My TDI regularly gives a readout of mpg at @ 50. Actual is @40 and pretty consistent. My daughter has a Toyota Yaris - she gets 38-40. Off the shelf motor oil.

J Tiers
09-25-2015, 10:40 AM
Seems like while some may think it's no big deal, everyone else thinks it's important..... VW down 30+% stock price, with BMW and Daimler ALSO taking a hit. People just don't seem to trust Germans right now.

I wonder if any individual will ever be fingered as "the guy" who called for the software to be put in. Probably not, the Koch brothers wouldn't like that, better to pass it off as an "unfortunate accident" in releasing the wrong software version.

M_C
09-25-2015, 11:19 AM
After you create this sensor

Those sensors already exist. And ironically, I know some VAG engines do have oil quality sensors fitted.

If you can think of a use for an engine sensor, it probably already exists. I know about 10 years ago on a Renault truck course, the instructor was telling us they had a sensor that could measure the amount of metal in the oil, but as they said, what would you actually do with that information?
You could place a sensor under each piston, and know if a certain piston was loosing metal, but what would you actually do?
The reality is, you could strip that engine and might find something of concern, but the engine could run for long enough without any issues, and if it did go bang, then it's probably not going to cost you much more than if you fixed it sooner.

A.K. Boomer
09-25-2015, 11:34 AM
It's a catch 22 trying to cover everything and always has been --- maybe good overall but there will always be exceptions

My thoughts go along the lines of connecting rod bearings working their way past the babbit material and into the copper, im sure they could have a sensor for that too,,, might actually have a practical application - throw an emergency dash light on and get people to have their engine checked out before they pump a rod through the block because we all know half of them will keep driving with heavy noises esp. with the tunes a jamming...

but what happens when the light comes on and warrants a tear down,,, only to find out that the last mechanic who adjusted the valves used copper coat on the VC gasket ---- big bummer...

Joe Rogers
09-25-2015, 12:34 PM
I'm waiting for the manufacturers to put a sensor on the car that actually will do them some good. Oil level sensor that won't allow a start if it is past a certain point below full. I bet the driving public as a whole has 2% of owners/drivers that EVER check and level the oil. And then they whine about noisy timing chains...Isn't that covered under the warranty???
Joe

wierdscience
09-25-2015, 12:38 PM
I'm waiting for the manufacturers to put a sensor on the car that actually will do them some good. Oil level sensor that won't allow a start if it is past a certain point below full. I bet the driving public as a whole has 2% of owners/drivers that EVER check and level the oil. And then they whine about noisy timing chains...Isn't that covered under the warranty???
Joe

That's one reason why even these days we still see otherwise perfectly good late model cars in the junkyard.

M_C
09-25-2015, 12:55 PM
Too long between servicing, or using the wrong oil is what usually kills timing chains. Modern engines are pushing components and oils harder, so you have to use the correct oil.
We had issues at work with timing chains on certain engines, and it came down to the boss being too tight to buy the correct oil. Problems have pretty much disappeared since using the correct oil.

For a fleet workshop like ours dealing with multiple makes, having the correct oils for everything is a nightmare, as each manufacturer specifies something slightly different. Although a higher spec oil will cover more vehicles and reduce the number of oils you have to keep, not everybody wants to pay for a higher spec oil than what's actually needed, especially considering the cost of certain oils.

lakeside53
09-25-2015, 01:00 PM
Not too many car engines with chains anymore... OK, there are a few, but..

My 1990 mazda pichup (original motor) has one. Still noisy at 175k. One day..

justanengineer
09-25-2015, 01:22 PM
I'm waiting for the manufacturers to put a sensor on the car that actually will do them some good. Oil level sensor that won't allow a start if it is past a certain point below full.

The problem with doing that is then you get into certain "do or die" scenarios where too much engine protection is a bad thing. I've never tested it, but I believe my 16 year old Firebird will start with a low oil sensor fault, I know it will continue to run with one from experience due to a leaky drain plug I was unaware of. No engine damage, no foul, but it could've been bad had the light not popped on - the car sits so low I cant hardly see underneath without it on a lift, nvm fitting underneath.

When I was in the military I dealt with a lot of do-or-die ECM logic where the vehicle could be sacrificed to protect personnel, as a mechanic I always hated the damage it would allow operators to do in garrison stateside. OTOH I realized the need, and I know from the day job now that there's a ton of logic behind everything in civilian vehicles as well - one of those, if youre willing to drive with a red light on you deserve it bc somebody's life might depend on it scenarios.

A.K. Boomer
09-25-2015, 01:42 PM
Not too many car engines with chains anymore... OK, there are a few, but..

My 1990 mazda pichup (original motor) has one. Still noisy at 175k. One day..

Lakeside - it's actually going exactly the opposite --- due to the maintenance of belts and people thinking its too much effort and expense to change them every 100,000 miles we are now seeing a major phase out of belts and most newer car engines going back to the chain,,, which is BTW the single largest contributor of hashing out your oil with metalic particulates that then get impregnated into your main and connecting rod bearings... my opinion - not a good trade off...

this is the new era --- give me something that works on it's own for a semi-reasonable time frame with no other input and then takes a total crap and implodes...

ikdor
09-25-2015, 01:51 PM
Actually, the new thing is wet belts. With the belt in the oil it does not wear anymore and will last the lifetime of the vehicle.

Igor

A.K. Boomer
09-25-2015, 01:56 PM
interesting - have not seen that yet on anything but usually do not start working on stuff till it's at least 5 years old...

M_C
09-25-2015, 03:53 PM
I was just going to mention the wet belts. Some of the Ford Ecoboost engines use them, along with one of the smaller VW petrols.
Makes it even more important that you use the correct oil, as the wrong grade may degrade the belt.

A.K. Boomer
09-25-2015, 04:05 PM
What kinda material holds up to all that?

and don't the wet belts consume energy when they get oil on the teeth and them have to pump it away off to the sides --- just wondering what happens at high RPM's and stuff

Willy
09-25-2015, 04:21 PM
I believe the Honda 5 HP GC OHC series of power equipment engines have used a wet belt for at least twenty years I think. Not really sure when they first appeared but it's been a while.

Certain pieces of equipment I've operated over the years did have chip detectors in key locations of the power train to alert the operator of an impending problem. However this combined with oil analysis has always been a good indicator of possible upcoming issues and thus allow scheduled maintenance.

Right or wrong it should be up to the operator when a piece shuts down. You don't want something to save itself at a critical time while sacrificing you in the process.

Lets face it idiot proofing an automobile in most instances involves removing the driver first.:rolleyes:

M_C
09-25-2015, 04:42 PM
This article gives some information on the belts.
http://www.ngfeurope.com/~/media/NGF%20Europe/Site%20Content/News/Automotive%20Design%20Europe%20Feature.ashx

They don't really run in oil, it's more a case of they're within the crankcase and get exposed to whatever oil mist is being thrown around.

A.K. Boomer
10-06-2015, 11:56 PM
FWIW - wonder if it was all worth it for a measly 2 Xtra ponies?


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-much-power-vws-cheating-194429238.html

lakeside53
10-07-2015, 12:11 AM
To quote the report :

"But TFL observed that the biggest difference in power is at the lower end of the power curve, where the engine operates during acceleration. There, the TDI engine with the full pollution controls was down as much as 15 horsepower".

macona
10-07-2015, 12:20 AM
The dyno test was majorly flawed. Read more int he comments here: http://jalopnik.com/heres-how-much-horsepower-volkswagens-lose-from-their-d-1734341446

Basically they never got it into the test mode because the car was doing traction control stuff.

PStechPaul
10-07-2015, 12:28 AM
Low end acceleration is much more dependent on torque than horsepower. Power is needed at high speeds where aerodynamics come into play and something like 20 HP is needed just to keep moving on level ground at a steady highway speed. American car buyers are still infatuated by power and speed well beyond what is appropriate, safe, and legal on public roads, and it is tragic that car manufacturers pander to this primal tendency, especially among young drivers where it is more dangerous.

vpt
10-07-2015, 07:52 AM
FWIW - wonder if it was all worth it for a measly 2 Xtra ponies?


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-much-power-vws-cheating-194429238.html



I think it has more to do with the fuel mileage.

boslab
10-07-2015, 08:51 AM
Hell of a lot of cars affected, apparently there was an announcement earlier telling employees that several thousand are to go to pay for this mess, uk is second to Germany in numbers of cars, lots going to need injectors and cat replaced, along with software, the floodgate as to compensation has not yet opened, there are rumours that this could well push the company under as audi, seat, vw and skoda are all implicated, plus the missing tax on emmisions, all in all it's turning very ugly with implications for steel makers, etc etc
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34399503
Mark

Mark Rand
10-07-2015, 04:18 PM
Low end acceleration is much more dependent on torque than horsepower. Power is needed at high speeds where aerodynamics come into play and something like 20 HP is needed just to keep moving on level ground at a steady highway speed. American car buyers are still infatuated by power and speed well beyond what is appropriate, safe, and legal on public roads, and it is tragic that car manufacturers pander to this primal tendency, especially among young drivers where it is more dangerous.

Actually, low end acceleration is dependent entirely on horse power if you've got a gearbox...

Peter.
10-07-2015, 04:52 PM
How so? Isn't a gearbox just a torque multiplier?

J Tiers
10-07-2015, 05:08 PM
Horse power is the rate of energy input to the system. Energy is 1/2 M*V^2 where velocity is what you accelerate to, and any velocity has an energy content... so it takes energy to accelerate.

Therefore HP controls how fast you accelerate.

PStechPaul
10-07-2015, 05:25 PM
Technically, since power involves speed, there is zero power at the moment of the start of acceleration. However, there may be considerable power being expended in the clutch or torque converter to obtain the torque needed for the acceleration. You can get any arbitrary amount of torque at the wheels with a suitable transmission, but the actual acceleration is limited by the traction of the tire on the road. The acceleration and speed over a given distance or time is dependent on power, but the upper limitations are determined by torque and traction.

Electric motors have a great advantage because they usually exhibit maximum torque from zero to a certain RPM, so optimal gearing can produce maximum usable torque, and thus maximum acceleration, from standstill to a certain speed, and then it becomes a matter of horsepower. A gas or diesel engine has a more limited torque and power curve and may require a wide range of gearing to obtain a desired acceleration and top speed performance figure. Gear changes cause delays so there is a trade-off, and higher horsepower may be able to reduce the number of gear changes, but larger engines suffer from poorer fuel economy, more weight, and increased emissions.