PDA

View Full Version : VFD help...



cuemaker
09-25-2015, 02:27 PM
Previous owner cut everything out of my lathe and stuck a 1ph 7.5hp motor in. Now the lathe does not reverse or anything..just turn it on and go.

So I found a cheap 10hp motor 3ph motor and thinking of putting on this VFD
http://www.ebay.com/itm/260829774379?hash=item3cbaaa822b&quantity=1&autorefresh=true

Hooking it up and going is not the issue. My question is hooking up a reverse switch and an external pot. Never have done it, cant find a simple explanation on the net.

I am electrically challenged. I am not dumb, but it takes me a very long time to understand electrical stuff, let along remember it for the next time.

Anybody want to take a minute and give me some simple instructions of which pot to buy, what kind of switch works for the reverse and if the diagram on the ebay listing helps...clues on how to wire?

After that, wanna come over and put it together? I have a nice speaker system, your choice of music. Maybe make you some good coffee?...Oh, and while your here.. i have something else for you to look at.......

MaxHeadRoom
09-25-2015, 02:55 PM
Huanyang are pretty much at the bottom of the pile as far as choice goes, Personally if economy is an issue, then use the money to but a working/used high end make/model off ebay, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Telemecanique Altivar, Allen-Bradley etc.
Hooking up the inputs is typically very easy, many come controlled by the keypad by default, and a parameter change is needed to set up pot/P.B. control and set motor specs.
The Support of for the Huanyang is virtually non-existent and the manual is written in Chinglish.
Max.

Doc Nickel
09-25-2015, 03:30 PM
First off, there's some significant debate about the latest generation of larger (over 5HP) Chinese-sourced VFDs. Generally speaking, due to the iffy quality control (both of the unit itself and the components) they tend to have a high "infant mortality" rate- if you make it past 90 days or so, it'll probably be fine, but a significant percentage fail early on.

Not very many people have had them for very long, so even their overall lifespan is up for some debate.

Second, also speaking generally, the wiring is fairly simple. There's three lines in (two power and one ground, as normal for single phase) and five or six "signal" wires. These wires are just low-voltage, milliamp-level digital control wires, so you can use almost anything- phone cord, CAT-5 cable, bell wire, etc.

There's usually three wires for the start/stop- there's actually a couple ways you can wire the buttons (so you can wire various kinds of existing control pods or panels to it) but generally speaking you'll have a common, one wire for a start (through a normally-open momentary button) and one for stop (through a normally-closed momentary button.)

Reverse is sometimes, but not always (depending on the specific brand of VFD) off the same common, and sometimes has it's own pair of signal lines. That's usually just an on-off switch; if it's off, you're running normally, if it's on, you're in reverse.

And a speed pot is the same thing- again, sometimes shares a common, often has it's own set of three lines. The pot itself is just a totally conventional 10K ohm linear potentiometer- $3.95 at Radio Shack.

The big trick that tends to stump people is what's commonly called the Parameters- you have to program the VFD and tell it how it's wired.

There will be a set of parameters listed in the manual- I've rarely seen a manual written for the non-electrical-engineer layperson, but it can be muddled through. You'll enter a programming mode, scroll through to whatever parameter is desired, and then you'll be given options.

As an example (pulling numbers out of my hat just for the illustration) you'll use the buttons on the face of the VFD to enter the programming mode. You'll just use the up/down keys to scroll down to, say, Parameter 23. Push 'enter'. It'll say something like "Start/Run 1", and if you again hit the up/down keys, you can scroll through "start/run 2" and start/run 3".

The list in the book will tell you which one you need: You've wired the start/stop buttons with the common and two momentary switches? You'll need #1. Using a rotary switch? You'll need #2. Using the reverse switch on the common? You'll need #3.

(Again, all just off the top of my head- your machine will be different.)

And, if you're using the reverse one, you'll need to go to that parameter, and tell it you're using either an on-off switch, a second start button (one button starts it normally, another button starts it in reverse) or whatever.

The speed pot is another parameter- there's a couple versions of those, too, so there'll be one parameter to enable the speed pot in the first place, and a second to tell it what kind of pot it is, or how it's wired.

And of course things like the speed ramp up (how fast the motor accellerates from a stop) and ramp-down, du=ynamic braking, and other features are also set by individual parameters.

What I did on mine- I have four different brands of VFD- is whip up "cheat sheets". I basically just retyped the handful of parameters I personally need, and only wrote down the settings needed for that particular machine. Basicaly just "press enter, scroll down to #25, press enter, scroll to #2, press enter. Scroll up to #18, press enter, scroll to #3, press enter, press program" and so on.

That way after a reset or something (which you may occasionally have to do after a power outage or something) it's just a few minutes rather than digging the manual out again and trying to remember all the settings you need, and what you set them to.

Doc.

PStechPaul
09-25-2015, 05:12 PM
It is also possible to achieve both forward and reverse operation, with a stop condition as well, using a single potentiometer. I made a video showing how a joystick can be used for this. I have a 2HP GE/Fuji VFD:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3gu4KSAgyI

That might be more information than needed for a simple application, but I wanted to show that it can be done, and may prove useful. It did require some additional circuitry to get the +/- 10 VDC for the FWD/REV drive.

You might also enjoy this more recent video where I show the guts of a very old VFD, and the programming of a newer one that is 480 VAC. I was able to power the VFD with a step-up transformer from 120 VAC, to drive the motor. It demonstrates some of the subtleties that can be involved. In this case, I was unable to get any output and I thought the VFD was damaged, even to the point of taking it apart and checking things deep inside. But I found a programming parameter that disabled local keypad control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW5Nk9yJXkI

cuemaker
09-25-2015, 08:17 PM
Paul, will watch your videos...I assure you, I will be impressed but might whoosh over my head.

Doc, will read your post more thoroughly here in a bit, but I appreciate the amount of info.

As for quality of VFD..Money isnt really a factor, but I would jump on 345 vfd sooner than a 1000 for the amount of usage it will get..

cuemaker
09-25-2015, 09:02 PM
Regarding quality of VFD....

Well, I found an good simple article on the ole interwebs about derating an VFD that is 3phase in for single phase.

Well with this bit of knowledge, that opens up many door to VFD's, and not for an outrageous sum either.

Here is a reprint of the article found here: http://www.dartcontrols.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/De-Rating-VFD-for-Single-Phase-Power.pdf

VFDs | How Do I Derate Three Phase Inputs For Single Phase Applications?
Often times those using a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) may find they need to connect a higher
horsepower VFD to a single phase input power source. Since most high horsepower VFDs only
accept three phase input as a power source, they are left with few options or alternatives. Don’t fret,
there is a solution.

If you are using a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) rated for three phase input and the only power
source you have available to you is single phase input, then you can de-rate the Variable Frequency
Drive (VFD) to accept the single phase input power source. You can almost always use a VFD rated
for three phase input with a single phase input power source. When only a three phase input VFD is
available, it is acceptable and common practice to de-rate the VFD to work with a single phase input
power source.

Before you de-rate your VFD, it is most important to ensure the VFD you are using is properly suited for
your application. The following are some basic guidelines to help you in determining whether or not
your Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) is suitable for your application: Gather motor nameplate data
including horsepower (HP), current (Amps), motor voltage, input line voltage and power source phase.
Determine which type of VFD your application will require. The type will fall under the category of Volts
per Hertz (V/Hz), closed-loop vector, or open-loop vector (Sensor-less Vector). The internal
components of the three phase input VFD are rated for the appropriate current expected when three
phase input power is applied. When using single phase input the line side current from the single
phase is always higher. To “de-rate“ is the process of ensuring that these components are rated for the
higher current that will flow from the single phase input instead of the three phase input.

You can de-rate a VFD by:

Determining the Horsepower of the Motor the VFD will be connected too, then choosing VFD with a
Horsepower higher than the Horsepower of the motor to compensate for the additional input
current from the single phase power source. The simplest formula used for these types of applications
is:

VFD Input Current > Motor Current Rating * 1.73

The VFD input current must be equal to or greater than the Motor Current Rating * 1.73

When installing most three phase input Variable Frequency Drives (VFDs) on an application
where single phase input power is used, you will almost always connect the input line leads to L1 and
L2 of the VFD. L3 will be left open with nothing connected. Consult with the VFD manufacturer or
knowledgeable integrator to be sure.

Example:

An application has a 230 VAC single phase input power source and needs to connect it to
a conveyor that has a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) connected to a 10 Horsepower 230 VAC 3
phase induction motor. Let us assume it has been determined that this application will operate well with
a simple Volts per Hertz (V/Hz) VFD. The issue is, since there are no VFD manufacturers that offer a
10 Horsepower (HP) single phase input Variable Frequency Drive (VFD), we will need to de-rate a VFD
with a three phase input for single phase input. Most manufacturers of VFDs only offer products up to 3
Horsepower (HP) for single phase input. The 10 Horsepower (HP) AC motor nameplate reveals that
the motor is rated for approximately 27 amps at 230 VAC. We must use the equation above:

VFD Input Current > Motor Current Rating * 1.73
VFD Input Current > 27 Amps * 1.73
VFD Input Current > 46.71

This application will need a 230 VAC 3 phase Volts per Hertz (V/Hz) Variable Frequency Drive (VFD)
with an input current rated at or above 47.0 amps.
End of article

lakeside53
09-25-2015, 09:18 PM
Hitachi says 2X Current is a good rule of thumb for theirs. The best source of derating info for "any" vfd is the original manf. My ABB ACS550 are 7.5hp 3 phase; 1.5hp single phase.

Doc Nickel
09-25-2015, 09:46 PM
The problem there, I'm told, is that many current VFDs detect the loss/lack of the one leg, and so throw a fault. Most of those that do, don't have an option to cancel that fault or bypass it, which means they can't be used with single phase.

Somebody- here or on PM- was just talking about being able to bypass it manually, by adding a simple jumper from one of the live legs to the now-spare leg. I'm not familiar with that nor can I say how well it works, but it's a possible option.

Cue- Yeah, I agree with the cost difference. I'm looking at the same thing myself, with a 10HP lathe I'm currently only able to run (well, test anyway, at this point) with a static converter. But I'm still leery of the cheap ones- $350 is a deal, unless you have to buy another one in a year (after their 60-day warranty is up.)

Doc.

hephaestus
09-25-2015, 09:52 PM
You might try watching "Craig Chamberlain"
videos, he works for "precision electric" and
if you search the company name you
should also see his videos. The type of
VFD is a "Lenze" I bought the 3 hp version.
Anyway he does a good job of explaining
how the units work, wiring etc.

cuemaker
09-25-2015, 10:10 PM
http://dealerselectric.com/WJ200-110LF.asp

This is what I am looking at...not to bad cost wise i guess...

Or this one,.,.
http://dealerselectric.com/item.asp?cID=2&scID=53&PID=24457

Mike Amick
09-25-2015, 10:18 PM
I can see your are mentally "done" with the current setup ... but .. you may want to buy the VFD first
and hook it up to your current motor for practice .. you may be surprised and like it and save your self
some bucks.

Mcostello
09-25-2015, 10:38 PM
I bought the same Vfd for a 7.5 hp motor. Could not get it to start. Returned it and (luckily) got My money back. Bought a rotary phase converter and never looked back again, once I screamed about the price.

cuemaker
09-25-2015, 10:42 PM
I can see your are mentally "done" with the current setup ... but .. you may want to buy the VFD first
and hook it up to your current motor for practice .. you may be surprised and like it and save your self
some bucks.


AHH.... good point.. I am going to take the 7.5 single phase motor and mate it with a Curtis compressor I have found that will give me 23cfm instead of whatever measly cfm I am getting now with my 2hp motor and 1940's Curtis compressor....

J Tiers
09-25-2015, 10:44 PM
Below 5hp, these days, most new VFDs will take single phase without derate.

At 10hp, that is not so true. The Huanyang are often claimed by sellers to take single phase, but apparently that is not in the actual specs. So at your power level you may need to look carefully at specs.

"Cut everything out", does that include pulleys and speed change equipment? Because you are unlikely to do well with the VFD as the only means of speed changing. The 10hp will be better than a smaller motor, but if you ever need slow speed and several hp, there may be an issue.

You will get full power at nominal motor speed, but at half speed, half power, down to 1hp at 1/10 nominal speed. There is likely also an issue of motor cooling below about 1/3 nominal speed.

If you have the regular speed change box etc you may be ok.

hephaestus
09-25-2015, 10:49 PM
http://dealerselectric.com/WJ200-110LF.asp

This is what I am looking at...not to bad cost wise i guess...

Or this one,.,.
http://dealerselectric.com/item.asp?cID=2&scID=53&PID=24457
Damn, how big is your lathe that the motor
would need to be so big ? That VFD is expensive
well maybe not for the size but if you
don't need a motor that big you might
come out cheaper buying another smaller
motor/vfd combo.

cuemaker
09-25-2015, 11:07 PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCIuQgM3bk8gCFYFAPgodowwNQg&url=http%3A%2F%2Famericanvalmark.com%2Fportfolio-view%2Fjet-1440-3pgh-14x40%2F&psig=AFQjCNHkF-KjZOAHwCLrV77SuRD_b3baJA&ust=1443323070494089

There is a pic, like my lathe. Jet 3pgh-1440. It normally came with a 7.5hp 3ph motor, and had electrical switches...those were all cut.

Of course I can change speeds, but thats it. No reverse, no immediate stop etc...

lakeside53
09-26-2015, 12:31 AM
The Hitachi is only 2.x the Chinese low end vfd (even IF it can really provide 10hp on single phase - I also have some doubt).... great deal for what you get. I've used the 10hp SJ200 on a pig 5hp WEG. Worked very well.

cuemaker
09-26-2015, 01:38 AM
Came across an old PM post where a guy did a step up transformer of 230 to 460 to power a motor he had. My motor will do 460.

460 VFD are MUCH cheaper...and the cost of a step up transformer does not seem to exceed the cost of a 15hp 230 VFD.

Any reason not to seriously look at using a step up transformer?

wierdscience
09-26-2015, 01:54 AM
Yes,cost and added complexity.Why not use that 10hp motor to build an RPC and pickup a 7-1/2 hp 3~ motor to run the lathe?All you need at that point is switchgear 3~ motor will plug reverse no problem.

cuemaker
09-26-2015, 09:03 AM
Yes,cost and added complexity.Why not use that 10hp motor to build an RPC and pickup a 7-1/2 hp 3~ motor to run the lathe?All you need at that point is switchgear 3~ motor will plug reverse no problem.

I can do a RPC.. I was/am just kinda stuck on the VFD..small unit vs another motor on the floor plus a box etc etc..In otherwords, not a real good reason.

I am not smart enough to know which parts to buy..but just googled this some and found kits, all you have to do is add pony motor and assemble...$96
http://www.wnysupply.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/25260/subcatid/0/id/328282

lakeside53
09-26-2015, 12:23 PM
Came across an old PM post where a guy did a step up transformer of 230 to 460 to power a motor he had. My motor will do 460.

460 VFD are MUCH cheaper...and the cost of a step up transformer does not seem to exceed the cost of a 15hp 230 VFD.

Any reason not to seriously look at using a step up transformer?

Take care wiring 480. It can kill you.

I have a 480v using a 15kw transformer. I installed it "to code" (but code here doesn't allow 480 in a residential property). Clearance to walls, fuses in, fuses out, enclosure for the fuses, correct wire colors, emt conduit, etc . I now only use it for testing ... even outside the room it has a really annoying buzz, and it's a potted modern transformer. You can probably find a used 10-15kw transformer for $200-300, but freight is an issue if not local.

Personally... I'd spring for the name brand 15hp vfd.

PStechPaul
09-26-2015, 02:40 PM
Technically, 480 VAC is still "low voltage" (under 600V), but it does require 600V class fuses and breakers and such. Once you go above about 50V, it becomes dangerous, so don't be complacent around 120 or 240 compared to 480. A 480V VFD may be cheaper on the used/surplus market, but they are less likely to work on single phase. The voltage doubler may actually be better because it uses large capacitors and can connect directly to the internal DC bus link. But such a contraption is not recommended for a novice.

rdfeil
09-26-2015, 10:51 PM
OK, I will go out on a limb about the 480 volt thing...

I disagree with Wierd and Lake. The complexity issue is simply the addition of a transformer and a 480 volt fused disconect. Not very complex IMHO.

The code thing MUST be looked into in your area. I live about 170 miles from Lakeside and we have no rules disallowing 480 volt in residential applications. The installation does have to meet code and be inspected and approved or the insurance companys will have a fit.

Side question for Lakeside: Is your reference to a local modification of the NEC or something else? Just curious about this so I can keep from steping in it when doing work out of my area. Thanks.

If allowed in your area I would let the cost difference make the decision for you. 480 volt is no more OR LESS dangerous than 240. It is a fact that more people, in the US are killed by 120 volts than all other voltages combined. Nothing to do with risk due to voltage just commonality. The same can be said about 240(220?) in the UK.

The higher voltage means lower current in the 480 volt circuits and VFD which will normally reduce cost of equipment in that segment, however you will need the transformer and the 480 volt fused disconect which are normally not cheap parts.

Robin

rdfeil
09-26-2015, 11:06 PM
Just one more piece of information. If the above 480 thing is against code in your area you can LEGALLY step through a loophole and do it anyway. First and foremost, be careful and follow industrial wiring practice and codes to make this safe, period. Simply keep the power "system" for the lathe (transformer, disconect, VFD etc...) as a "cord connected" piece of equipment. This means that the 240 volt supply MUST be pluged into an outlet, no perminant wireing. In this case your lathe becomes the same as a very large vacuum cleaner or gair drier. This is a loophole and should not be abused and if done DO IT SAFELY!!

R

Lew Hartswick
09-27-2015, 10:17 AM
You know I'm almost sorry I'm an EE. When I have to read all the MISS-INFORMATION on any thing electrical on these boards. :-(
...lew...

J Tiers
09-27-2015, 12:02 PM
Just one more piece of information. If the above 480 thing is against code in your area you can LEGALLY step through a loophole and do it anyway. First and foremost, be careful and follow industrial wiring practice and codes to make this safe, period. Simply keep the power "system" for the lathe (transformer, disconect, VFD etc...) as a "cord connected" piece of equipment. This means that the 240 volt supply MUST be pluged into an outlet, no perminant wireing. In this case your lathe becomes the same as a very large vacuum cleaner or gair drier. This is a loophole and should not be abused and if done DO IT SAFELY!!

R

In such a case, you may get flack if the lathe is not hard-wired to the adapter. Use of a standard plug there may be an issue, although it really should not be.


You know I'm almost sorry I'm an EE. When I have to read all the MISS-INFORMATION on any thing electrical on these boards. :-(
...lew...

Any specific items?

wierdscience
09-27-2015, 12:23 PM
If allowed in your area I would let the cost difference make the decision for you. 480 volt is no more OR LESS dangerous than 240. It is a fact that more people, in the US are killed by 120 volts than all other voltages combined. Nothing to do with risk due to voltage just commonality. The same can be said about 240(220?) in the UK.

The higher voltage means lower current in the 480 volt circuits and VFD which will normally reduce cost of equipment in that segment, however you will need the transformer and the 480 volt fused disconect which are normally not cheap parts.

Robin

In the US 320,000,000+ people are in direct daily contact with 120vac devices.Not so much with 480vac so I don't accept your argument in that light.

So far as using an xformer,it is more expensive,a 20kva xformer new will cost more than a 220vac VFD designed to do what he wants.Buying used is a crapshoot,you might get a good one and you might get one that is DOA.If you bought that used Lemon online you will be on the hook for the return freight.

My argument for an RPC is based on the fact that an RPC is essentially nothing more than a 1:1 rotary xformer.Given that surplus 3~ motors are dirt cheap and plentiful it makes them an obvious choice over a 480vac xformer especially since the RPC negates the need for buying a VFD.

wierdscience
09-27-2015, 01:13 PM
Coarse you could go the full Monty and buy a Phase Perfect :D


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phase-Perfect-Digital-Phase-Converter-10-HP-PT-330-New-/371000297763?hash=item5661574923

lakeside53
09-27-2015, 08:52 PM
I did just that. Bought the only 10hp PP I've ever seen on CL - for $1500. Sure is nice... ;)

But that link is a bit confusing... is it really a Phase Perfect, a licensed copy or other? From the Ebay listing :


"American Rotary has developed a Digital Rotary Phase Converter with MicroSmart™ Controllers that shares many of the features and benefits of a Phase Perfect Phase Converter, and is offered at a much lower price"

J Tiers
09-27-2015, 09:23 PM
I suspect they are a dealer for PP.

They also seem to have a rotary with some form of control to optimize it. Probably a system of "balance" (PF correcting) capacitors that are switched in to work with the specific load on a real-time basis.

wierdscience
09-27-2015, 10:43 PM
I did just that. Bought the only 10hp PP I've ever seen on CL - for $1500. Sure is nice... ;)

But that link is a bit confusing... is it really a Phase Perfect, a licensed copy or other? From the Ebay listing :


"American Rotary has developed a Digital Rotary Phase Converter with MicroSmart™ Controllers that shares many of the features and benefits of a Phase Perfect Phase Converter, and is offered at a much lower price"

I believe they are referring to their line of rotary converters that features digital controls-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rotary-Phase-Converter-AD3-3-HP-Digital-Controls-Heavy-Duty-CNC-Made-in-USA-/370755610714?hash=item5652c1a85a

They also offer a digital static converter,which is something I may do for a surface grinder I need to power since I really don't need a vfd for it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Smart-Series-Static-Phase-Converter-3-5-HP-American-Rotary-DSS-3-5-/281208074961?hash=item41794eb2d1

lakeside53
09-27-2015, 10:51 PM
Ah... The first ad was for a PP, but in that they ALSO are referencing their new rotary converters.

About time someone put some decent controls on an rpc!

You might get surface finish issues if you run your surface grinder on a static converter. It's still only a single phase device; your spindle motor will have the vibration of an rpc.

wierdscience
09-27-2015, 11:32 PM
Ah... The first ad was for a PP, but in that they ALSO are referencing their new rotary converters.

About time someone put some decent controls on an rpc!

You might get surface finish issues if you run your surface grinder on a static converter. It's still only a single phase device; your spindle motor will have the vibration of an rpc.

I did,built several with a centrifugal switch on the shaft.They worked everytime and always held the start cap in the exact amount of time.No grunts,no growls.

Maybe,I don't know.I have a Boyar Schultz that is belt driven with a 3/4 hp 110vac motor now.No problems with the motor causing finish issues,the rack drive table telegraphs the racks pitch perfectly however ;)

lakeside53
09-27-2015, 11:42 PM
A single phase motor will have a lot less vibration than a 3 phase motor running on single phase (static converter).

cuemaker
10-13-2015, 04:56 PM
Ok, here is an UPDATE>>>

Purchased:
15 HP, 230 Volts, IP 20, Hitachi, WJ200-110LF
MODEL #: WJ200-110LF

But even more exciting, I have spoke with a gentleman named Pat, who works for Hitachi, and he said when I am ready, he will tell me the exact pot, switches, wiring and programming I need. With this info, I will be able to control the speed and with the flip of a couple of swtiches reverse the motor.

Pat also said that if the motor doestn stop quickly enough for me under its normal dynamic braking setup, he can help me setup and program that also.

I currently do not have a means to reverse rotation of the lathe.

I intend to a bit of a write up, but I am many weeks away from starting as I have other projects going on.

lakeside53
10-13-2015, 08:00 PM
Don't buy Hitachi's braking resistors - way way overpriced.. Lots of surplus available. With one of those and the braking unit within the 15hp vfd, you should be able to stop real quick.

macona
10-13-2015, 10:11 PM
Use stovetop range elements for braking resistors. They are cheap and reliable. Haas uses them on their CNCs.