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MrFluffy
10-15-2015, 11:10 AM
Not sure if its a gloat price for everyone at $450, but certainly is around here where they seem to fetch $1000+.Do-All ml16 "contouring and filing machine", aka vertical bandsaw.
3 phase, mechanical feed and bonus has arrived with a metal cutting band in. First problem is its too big to go through the workshop entrance standing upright, so I have to wait until the weekend so I can flip it onto its back and move it into the workshop that way but I am really looking forward to using it after years of a crappy underpowered ryobi bandsaw. Roll on the weekend to get it loaded in, its sat here in the bucket of the jcb in readyness.

http://gallery.pipandphil.com/d/38834-1/saw1.JPG

michigan doug
10-15-2015, 11:43 AM
Way to go!


You suck!

jcon
10-15-2015, 11:49 AM
MrFluffy

I used one just like that at work for years. It is a very good machine. Way to GO!

Jim

tyrone shewlaces
10-15-2015, 12:28 PM
Heck yea. Blade welder too? not scrap money but I'd be very happy to find what you got there for myself at that price.

macona
10-15-2015, 12:41 PM
Very nice.

Just remember the blade welder is not intended for making your own blades from stock but for doing internal cuts where you cut the blade, pass it though a hole, and re-weld it with the welder. The welds tend not to last nearly as long as a factory weld.

ncjeeper
10-15-2015, 01:14 PM
I would be all over that for that price.

Dave C
10-15-2015, 01:23 PM
That's just BS

Very nice.

Just remember the blade welder is not intended for making your own blades from stock but for doing internal cuts where you cut the blade, pass it though a hole, and re-weld it with the welder. The welds tend not to last nearly as long as a factory weld.

KIMFAB
10-15-2015, 01:30 PM
It takes the right touch but I have found that blade life after welding is very dependent on the anneal.

By the way, you suck.

projectnut
10-15-2015, 01:47 PM
I disagree about not being able to use the welder to make new blades from stock. We had the larger version of this saw in our shop for over 30 years. It had the same welder and worked just fine for making new blades.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3613-0-DoALL-36-Vertical-Band-Saw-New-1974-/351375335375?hash=item51cf9a1fcf

We regularly had at least 20 different rolls of stock and made all our blades. The key is to grind it perfectly smooth then anneal it. It's somewhat of an art to anneal the blade properly. Once you get the hang of it the blades will last as long as any made by a commercial blade manufacturer

Glug
10-15-2015, 01:56 PM
Hey, you suck. Good luck with the move!

Bob Fisher
10-15-2015, 02:32 PM
I agree with some others, I've been welding blades from stock coils for 20+ yrs with no problem. I recently silver soldered a blade for an inside cut at home and it worked beautifully. Re soldered it after the cut was completed and it still is cutting fine. Using the blade welder, I've found that annealing. To a dull red works well. Bob.

Left Handed Spud Wrench
10-15-2015, 02:40 PM
Suckus Maximus. I am stuck with a Horrible Freight Band Saw for the time being. It... could be better.

Anyway -- trick to using that welder to make new blades? Make sure all the internals are functional, clean the points of contact REALLY good and clean the blade to be welded really good too. THEN practice on a couple of pieces of scrap blade. As has been said it's all about the post-weld anneal. Each blade you make will be unique even from the same stock. Practice on a segment of scrap or cutoff first, then do your blade.

It's more art than science sadly otherwise I'd try to explain it better...

RichTes
10-15-2015, 03:14 PM
I bought a HSV model or something like that (still a 16" model). Drain the gearbox before you turn on it's spine. Mine leaked all over the trailer when I moved it.

Rich

Tundra Twin Track
10-15-2015, 11:21 PM
Congrats on purchase,what year is that one, I have a 1950 ML 16 that I refurbished and switched to 1ph power.You will appreciate the quality of that saw,is it a single or two speed gearbox.My Doall is the most used machine in my farm shop.

Spin Doctor
10-16-2015, 06:11 AM
Very nice.

Just remember the blade welder is not intended for making your own blades from stock but for doing internal cuts where you cut the blade, pass it though a hole, and re-weld it with the welder. The welds tend not to last nearly as long as a factory weld.

That I'm not sure about. I always msde up my own blades and the blade would tend to wear out long beore the welds broke. The secret is proper annealing. Took a bit of trial and error though. Plus if I mde blades up for myself I was selfish. Go and use the saw. Take the blade out. Put mine in. Finish task. Put original blade in. What destroyed more blades for us was die makers cutting body pannels for use as templates when repairing dies

MrFluffy
10-16-2015, 07:40 AM
All I can find so far is a plate stamped with a M a scuff and then 16. So ML16 is still somewhat of an assumption. The seller had it listed as a BW35 model saw, which is the model of the blade welder but possibly why response was low enough for me to swoop. I'll have another look for a serial once its in its final resting place and I can clean it up a bit. It was listed as collect only from London docks in the UK but I spoke to the seller and he was ok palletising if I could provide a pallet, so I found a shipper that dropped off a pallet 2 days in advance for a extra $10 fee and it came general freight to France. They loaded it and UK side collected without drama, and it turned up here on two pallets, the top one having been broken in Paris at the same distribution hub that put a fork through the DI bottle on my EDM and wrecked lots of its tinware. But this got here with no damage except to the pallet so got away lucky this time. I even got the same delivery driver that delivered the sodick, though now working for a different company!

Back to the saw, its 3 phase and I have 3 phase supply in my shop so no changes required. Not sure yet if its single or double speed, but it covers the sfm ranges to saw everything on the dial and is currently set for steel. I had a peek at the tyres and theyre good if somewhat encrusted with grunge which is pretty much the story of everywhere I've looked at so far. It just needs some hsm'er tlc.
I'm going to remove the table tomorrow am to save any risk of breaking its suports before tipping it, and good call on the gearbox oil drainage too. I plan to tip it onto some blocks onto a skid with the backhoe then drag the lump into the shop with a come-a-long and a winch to its final place then right it with a engine crane in situ as it also looks like it will foul the celing reinforcement beams by 1/2" or so. I even think I can get it in the main shop without having to move any existing machines into the extension shed which will be a achievement & the other good news is its not so tall it needs cutting down to fit under the concrete celing itself like the POS bridgeport did.
Going to be a fun weekend, daughters birthday too on sunday so while everyone else is sleeping excess cake off in the evening I'll be in the shop starting to test it out hopefully.

bob308
10-16-2015, 08:57 AM
I have spent many hours running saws just like that. also welded many blades both for repair and new from coil. the more blades you weld the longer they last. I think it is called learning what you are doing.

boslab
10-16-2015, 10:39 AM
Out of curiosity can you torch anneal the weld, I know there's an anneal setting on welders, I've used one to feed the blade through an internal hole, I've never actually had a blade fail but I was only sawing graphite so the things would last forever, I now have a bandsaw, a startrite, I've used it a few times but think the motor is too small, gets bogged down quick on thick timber, bit disappointing realy, was told the motor had been changed, it had, for the same HP, how dull is that
All these different blades are still a mystery to me, skip tooth, alternate variable pitch etc, I'll learn I suppose, we had a do all in work, the feed unit was predictably buggered, apart from the sheer size of it she was a good machine, there was a really deep throated one, it was supposed to be for steel but we used it to re saw timber, scafholding planks being a favourite food, especially new ones, they would disappear at night, the steel erect ores came in one day and asked if anyone had seen planks disappearing from the lorry outside, there was a bloody big pile of sawdust on the floor, so we said it was woodworm, and they got in here to and ate our bench!
It wasn't believed
Mark

Paul Alciatore
10-16-2015, 02:09 PM
Question on breaking and joining a blade for internal cuts: When the cut is finished do you cut it at that same place or cut it at a new place or do you just melt the joint apart and rejoin at the same place.

Not an immediate need for me, just a curiosity. And I have not learned the art of making my own blades. I have tried, but not been successful yet. I really want to take a welding class.

MrFluffy
10-16-2015, 06:51 PM
Theres a howto section on the blade welder manual, but no direct experience here yet. It says to cut out the old weld as there should be only one weld per blade. I'd guess each time the blade has to get shorter until its outside the adjustment range.
http://www.neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/Doall/DOALL%20Butt%20Welder.pdf

garyhlucas
10-16-2015, 08:30 PM
So lets make the blade welding science instead of art. Everyone is right the annealing is the key. The secret to getting right every time is real simple. Get a small bar magnet and hold it near the joint in the blade as you repeatedly press the anneal button. When the blade suddenly isn't attracted to the magnet anymore it's perfect. Like others I welded up lots of blades until I got pretty good at it. Stop for a year or two and I am learning all over again. Then I saw mention of the magnet trick and now I get a good blade in one or two tries at most.

Zahnrad Kopf
10-16-2015, 09:18 PM
Hey Fluffball... NICE score! Well done, Sir. Well done. I use that same saw all the time. It's a good'n. Take a look-see and inspect the transmission lever and linkage. They can get worn and wobbly, making shifting from low to hi and back problematic. Keep it in trim and it's a winner. Enjoy it in good health.

P.S. - I woke up today to find that I had accidentally bought a 10EE. Hate when that happens.

bborr01
10-17-2015, 09:29 AM
The blade welder is for welding blades. Period. Whoever told you they were just for making blades for internal cuts must have never learned to properly weld a blade either.

In my working days I welded easily over 100 blades out of coil stock and rarely had a failure. Most of the guys in the toolroom couldn't weld a blade if their life depended on it though, so don't feel bad.

Brian


Very nice.

Just remember the blade welder is not intended for making your own blades from stock but for doing internal cuts where you cut the blade, pass it though a hole, and re-weld it with the welder. The welds tend not to last nearly as long as a factory weld.

lakeside53
10-17-2015, 11:34 AM
Any of these blade welders work for Bi-metal? Or just Tig them?

Tundra Twin Track
10-17-2015, 12:32 PM
[QUOTE=MrFluffy;1008702]All I can find so far is a plate stamped with a M a scuff and then 16. So ML16 is still somewhat of an assumption. The seller had it listed as a BW35 model saw, which is the model of the blade welder but possibly why response was low enough for me to swoop. I'll have another look for a serial once its in its final resting place and I can clean it up a bit.

Hey MrFluffy if ser.# has a dash after the first the first two numbers was built after 1952 and the year is the two numbers after the dash.If no dash then the year is the first two numbers.

Rosco-P
10-17-2015, 12:43 PM
All I can find so far is a plate stamped with a M a scuff and then 16. So ML16 is still somewhat of an assumption. The seller had it listed as a BW35 model saw, which is the model of the blade welder but possibly why response was low enough for me to swoop. I'll have another look for a serial once its in its final resting place and I can clean it up a bit.

Once you have model and serial #, manual should be here: http://www.doallsaws.com/parts-manual-search?manual=search-manuals

bborr01
10-17-2015, 01:12 PM
I welded bi-metal blades all the time at my last job. I do have some HSS blade stock that wouldn't weld with a standard blade welder though. I brought them in to a local shop that has a machine that I was told cost over $20K rebuilt and it welded them up no problem.

Brian


Any of these blade welders work for Bi-metal? Or just Tig them?

Daminer
10-17-2015, 01:32 PM
Proper annealing is a must, but one preparation step is critical. The broken ends must be ground flat and perpendicular so contact is made across the blade end while in the welder clamps. If the ends do not meet "squarely" an uneven weld will result with lessened strength.
While holding an end in each hand (leather gloves a must!)I'll rotate one blade and press them together. Now the teeth point in opposite directions. Then grind the ends as accurately as you can to achieve a square end.
While a perfect grind is rarely possible by hand, the two ends will "match" when the blades are then clamped in welder blade clamps.
After welding reposition the blade/clamps to the anneal position and hold briefly until the blade is medium red in heat. Not orange red and not just barely dim-red either. Release and count "thousand-1. hold anneal button 1/2 second, release and count T-2. Hold1/2 sec., release and count T-3, etc out to a count of ten. All this will take about a minute and should give a strong, well annealed blade.
Now for the test. With hands about a foot apart I'll bend the blade to a 6" circle in each direction. If it breaks the weld/annealing was not correct, do it over.
The last item is blade tension. The tension scales on most saws seem to leave the blade under-tensioned to a point where blade breakage is invited. I tighten by ear so the blade "sings" to me in a mid-scale tone. Under-tensioned blades will sound more like a "bass" sound and be a little too loose.

MrFluffy
10-19-2015, 01:19 PM
Hey MrFluffy if ser.# has a dash after the first the first two numbers was built after 1952 and the year is the two numbers after the dash.If no dash then the year is the first two numbers.

Thanks all, great discussion around the blade welder, it's new to me as a technique too.
Somehow I don't think this is the actual serial number! I haven't found anything else yet.
http://gallery.pipandphil.com/d/38837-1/saw_serial.jpg

Fasttrack
10-19-2015, 02:04 PM
Not sure if its a gloat price for everyone at $450

That's a gloat in my book. I'd love to find a nice vertical bandsaw for $500 or less. Especially one with a mechanical feed.

Dave C
10-19-2015, 02:06 PM
Well, it certainly looks to be the serial number. Why do you think it's not? I would think that it is simply a early edition of the model.

MrFluffy
10-25-2015, 05:40 AM
Dave, because ser 327 doesn't appear to match their model number syntax.

Final update , Its in the workshop, had a nightmare as it was 2ft too tall for the doorway, so I removed the table, then lifted it with the backhoe and tipped it horizontal and planned to lift it through the doorway using the machine, only the main strap holding it failed and it fell to ground with a sickening crunch. I then slid it in still on its face on some sheeting not wanting to repeat the exercise. If I ever have to do it again, I'm going to make up a dolly with provision to be tilted custom for the saw to avoid it hanging off things.

The start/stop button under the table area bore the brunt of the fall, and the power incoming switch box on the other side of the machine also. Fortunately I had another similar stashed away, but it was too low an amperage, but the fingers and wires which control how many amps the switch trips at had survived inside, so I could rebuild this spare unit with the parts from the smashed one to make it a 2-4amp unit. I am so glad I decided to remove the table.
http://gallery.pipandphil.com/d/38840-1/smashed_startbutton.jpg

Its also not her first rodeo, this is the table mount, it has been bronze welded and is a nice repair but it looks like its been knocked over with the table in place at some point in the past like so many of these saws.
http://gallery.pipandphil.com/d/38852-1/table_mount_repair.jpg


But its in now although that was fun too, as it was also too tall to pass under the beams once in the shop, so I had to move it to the final position and right end it in situ without room to swing a cat. I was using the pos bridgeport and the surface grinder for anchors on check straps then lifted it up using a combination of a motorcycle hydraulic lift and ratcheting up the check straps once it came past the point of balance.
After some safety checks and rewiring and replacement of the two broken switch gears it saws beautifully and the varidrive is whisper quiet. Its a single speed unit I can say definitively now. That is a contour notching test piece and a old snapped 1/2 drive socket made from a chrome vandium alloy.
The low voltage lamp survived the fall, but I have no suitable 50v bulbs, the blade welder isnt yet working but I suspect yet another wiring fault not all of which I have found so far I am convinced are as a result of its fall...
http://gallery.pipandphil.com/d/38849-1/in_workshop.jpg


On the serial, still can't find one. Just the heavy brass plate on the lower door labeled "M 16" and the already pictured SER plate. Its possible as this is a UK made do-all that they altered the naming nomeclature and it really is a M16.

Very very happy now, I'm in that phase of ownership where you ferret through the scrap bin looking for something awkward to saw just to test if the saw can cope with it. So far its coped with steel, chrome vandium and some iconel block.

EddyCurr
10-25-2015, 10:14 AM
You didn't have to admit to the crash. I am happy to read
that there was no injury and only insignificant damage.
Still, someone has to utter Mr Stevenson's epithet:

Clumsy Bastard !

For my future benefit, and that of others here, how is it
that the main line failed? Were there auxiliary/back-up
lines. Was this purely a failure of rigging equipment,
rigging technique, or did haste/fatigue factor in?

There is no suggestion of superiority in the enquiry. An
impulsive act on my part this past Friday led to grief in a
small matter, but I am still shaking my head over it. Years
ago, a lovely Hercus tool & cutter grinder toppled over in my
truck as I was delivering it to its new owner - very high
center of gravity and inadequately secured by me. On the
final day of the close-out of a bankrupt machinery dealer,
I returned to find a commotion occuring in the loading bay
where a new lathe lay on its side after sliding forward off
the tangs of a forklift - my already-paid-for lathe was next
in the queue.

.

EddyCurr
10-25-2015, 10:17 AM
and congratulations.

I miss the Do-All I had to leave behind and envy you
yours.

.

MrFluffy
10-25-2015, 11:28 AM
I moved the saw to the door way in the front bucket of the jcb, but its too wide to enter the doorway so had to unload then use the back acter because I know I can just thread things through the doorway enough to make it inside that way. I should have had that doorway out and widened it when I built the workshop,and when we do the big barn next its going to be a priority to have a door large enough to drive the machines straight in but circumstances dicated at the time I couldn't.
I stropped the saw with a good strong (or so I thought) strop bolted to two holes in the rear bucket I use for this reason, then used some smaller straps to rotate it round the point of balance of the main strap but they were just hooked round the edges of the craw'd bucket.
The main strop failed around where the stitching first started, old age is the factor here as visually it looked ok but I've been using it for at least 5 years and it wasn't new when aquired so in retrospect very past its sell by date, then when it jolted as it started to fall it unhooked the auxillary straps in the jolt and down she went. Nobody was near at this point because I know things fail, and you have to just let it fall rather than rush in and get injured.
We're not talking professional rigging and slings here proof tested annually, its all stuff I have scarfed together over the years and on this occasion it bit me. I should have used a heavy chain instead of the strop but ironically I didn't want to beat the saw up if I could help it, I should have set a secondary strong strop along side in case of failure also bolted on but I was loosing the light so went with what I had...
Its the first time I've ever dropped anything on its side, and I've moved a few times with fair sized machines in the shop, I guess I'm confessing so I feel embarassed enough to never do it again if I can help it.

I've been sawing things up with it all day and the auto feed while simple is surprisingly effective. C'est la vie, alls well that ends well.

EddyCurr
10-25-2015, 03:52 PM
In 2014, an interest in working with cable led to the
acquisition of tools and materials for fabricating my
own.

In the process of self-learning about the capabilities
and limitations of cable, I also learned how much I
didn't know about how sling angle and choke angle
affects load factors. These factors do not just apply
to cable - slings, chain, rope & ect are all subject to
the physics at play. It was cause for pause to reflect
on times I had really choked up on a sling or chain
in order to minimize headspace required in a tight
spot. If someone else sees this remark, learns from
it, considers their factors and lifts according to the
circumstances, that would be a good outcome.

As for lifting devices, I am sure you and I are not the
only ones who have used items that were not new.
With no regular need to own equipment, mine was
frequently borrowed and of unknown background
beyond whatever labeling might be present.

In the past, I have lifted with a frayed sling and with
a cable choker with kinked strands - telling myself the
load was well below the rated capacity of the device.
Not anymore.

Thanks for the post mortem. Happy sawing !

.