PDA

View Full Version : Impressive lathe demonstration, or just marketing hype?



pinstripe
11-07-2015, 02:55 AM
In my search for more information about the Wabeco lathes, I came across this video showing 10mm of alumiunium being removed in one pass (looks like 5mm from each side). The translated description says

material AlCuMgPb
Delivery in 10mm
Feed 0.08mm per revolution

I can't see myself ever being in such a hurry to remove this much metal in one pass, but I am wondering if this video says anything about the robustness or quality of the lathe. Is it an impressive demonstration, or could other similarly sized lathes do the same thing?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRV7DM9zyLI

dp
11-07-2015, 03:12 AM
A proper poll does not introduce leading questions. Start over.

pinstripe
11-07-2015, 03:55 AM
I don't think I can edit the question. How do you suggest that I should word it? Wabeco obviously think this is impressive because they use it for their marketing. I'd like to know if this is impressive, or just typical for a small lathe. I'm not shilling for them, I've never even seen one of their products.

flylo
11-07-2015, 05:26 AM
Don't make me turn on the Pacemaker & show you how a real lathe cuts:rolleyes:

pinstripe
11-07-2015, 05:39 AM
Don't make me turn on the Pacemaker & show you how a real lathe cuts:rolleyes:

Not exactly a small lathe :D

My space is limited. 24 inches is the widest I can go. The Taiwanese model I am considering is the smallest Taiwanese lathe I can find locally, and it's a bit larger than I would like for the space available. I've been told that the Taiwanese machinery should be better than the Chinese. I agree with the more weight = better view, but I have to put it somewhere.

Baz
11-07-2015, 07:06 AM
It says more about who they are targeting as purchasers. The main market for small new machines is non-professionals who do a bit of vehicle tinkering and not equipped to assess the overall specifications but will be impressed by a 'big' cut.

pinstripe
11-07-2015, 07:28 AM
Thanks Baz. That makes a lot of sense.

Peter N
11-07-2015, 07:43 AM
I've seen a bigger cut on a Myford, in steel not aluminium, low speed and big blue chips coming off it. Think it may have been by posted by Mark Rand years ago.

boslab
11-07-2015, 08:03 AM
I don't normally take deep cuts with a large stick out myself, had a few loosen and climb, I like a good bite on things,
Mark

oil mac
11-07-2015, 08:13 AM
I would have preferred if they had parted off that length of bar & sent it over to me for stock!

Seastar
11-07-2015, 08:18 AM
Ho, Hum!
Bill

Tony Ennis
11-07-2015, 08:41 AM
In my search for more information about the Wabeco lathes, I came across this video...

Do you have any affiliation with Wabeco lathes?

schor
11-07-2015, 08:50 AM
I've done 0.1 depth of cut on 1018 crs with my 1/3hp atlas lathe.

pinstripe
11-07-2015, 09:04 AM
Do you have any affiliation with Wabeco lathes?

Only as a potential customer.

bob308
11-07-2015, 09:32 AM
i have been doing that and more with my 9" south bend.

flylo
11-07-2015, 09:33 AM
I've done 0.1 depth of cut on 1018 crs with my 1/3hp atlas lathe.

Put a commercial consew brand sewing machine 3/4 hp dc motor on your Atlas & you'll set variable speed, reverse, more power & a brake for about $100.

JCHannum
11-07-2015, 09:41 AM
I am curious as to the alloy, particularly as it appears to be leaded. It is it a free turning aluminum? Is there a comparable US alloy?

RussZHC
11-07-2015, 09:44 AM
The way I see the video, its 10.04mm per side (based solely on what the read out appears to be) so that is .3937". And that would not be too bad in steel for a lower HP lathe...

I am not sure that amount of removal means being in a hurry, at some point it comes down to a matter of efficiency and that in turn can imply how much can be taken off per cut with different materials. Just saying if all the stock you have on hand is 2" and you need just over an inch, that is a lot of passes if they are all finishing depth cuts. The feed rate is almost identical to the slowest on my old Sheldon...could happily work all day at those settings so...no?

I also think I would prefer the chips to be breaking more...not part of your question, again, just saying.

Spin Doctor
11-07-2015, 09:56 AM
I'm not particulary (sp) impressed. Its speeds and feeds folks. The feed is probably around .001 to . 002 per revolution. Looks to be a CPXX style insert With a decent built in chip breaker. Nw if they were managing this with a CN style insert in that lathe then I would be impressed. An ecxeption to that would be a CNMP insert that is in effect a positive rake insert in a negative rake tool holder.

Mcgyver
11-07-2015, 10:07 AM
What is this lathe, a benchtop? If so think it bodes well for a small lathe. If you can take a 1/2" DOC with a benchtop lathe, its fair to say its at least one indicator of a decent machine.

firbikrhd1
11-07-2015, 10:57 AM
Although I can't put my hands on it right now (in the process of moving), my copy of Atlas' Manual of Lathe Operation has a picture of an "experienced machinist" making a heavy cut (1/2" on the diameter) in steel between centers on a lathe that wouldn't appear to be capable of such a cut, so advertising heavy depth of cut is nothing new to selling lathes or advertising their abilities.
Here is a link to the picture on Scribd: See Page 50
http://www.scribd.com/doc/34415359/Manual-of-Lathe-Operations-and-Machinists-Tables-Atlas-Press-Co#scribd
Curiously, Atlas lathes are considered by many to be less capable that other machines of that era and many times maligned as being noodles, flexible, lacking rigidity and given other negative reviews. Having used a 10" Atlas and a 10" Logan I can say that the Logan is more stout however the Atlas, when used within its design envelope, works very nicely too.


Not being a professionally trained machinist I hesitate to offer my opinion and I'm certain others here more qualified will correct me, however as far as I can discern, in addition to rigidity and machine condition, the way a tool is ground, feed and speed (FPM) and the method used to mount work have a great deal to do with allowing a small machine take deep cuts.
Whether such cuts are practical in the real world is another matter. If the total time to set up a machine to take a deep cut to remove "X" amount of material exceeds the time it takes to remove the same amount of material using smaller cuts, higher speeds and multiple passes you gain nothing except maybe a boost to your ego.

In other words, just because a machine is "capable" doesn't mean it is practical or should be done as a general practice. Whether demonstrations of such a cut truly represent the capabilities of a machine or it's quality, I am somewhat dubious. If the, as considered by some, the lowly Atlas can make such a heavy cut as described surely more should be expected from stouter, higher quality machines.

MikeL46
11-07-2015, 11:00 AM
I am curious as to the alloy, particularly as it appears to be leaded. It is it a free turning aluminum? Is there a comparable US alloy?

I agree with you. None of my aluminum cuts that cleanly without some lubricant.

Mike

dalee100
11-07-2015, 11:02 AM
Hi,

My HF 8x14 will do that easily in aluminum.

Dalee

Forrest Addy
11-07-2015, 01:10 PM
What I saw on the linked video was impressive at all for any small lathe. The feed translates to 0.003/rev and the SFM looks moderate for aluminum. Hell, the motor didn't even load up. Depth of cut is impressive given the stock stand-out in such a small chuck so I will give them a point there.

Anyway, it looked like a 1/2 HP cut to me but if the material as free machining aluminum with a machinability index of a zillion percent, the actual HP demand could be less that appears at first glance.

Nope. Not impressed at all with what I saw on the video as an exhibition of stock removal even on the small scale of the machine. Any lathe in its class could perform equally well under the same conditions. If you're gonna do a full load cut test, you need to select material, tool, feeds and speeds that work the machine right up to its motor's rated full load amps.

It should be pointed out that a small lathe like the one depicted is probably not intended as a production machine to be put in the hands of an aggressive machinist. It's a lab, school, small maintenance shop machine to be used for incidental and onsey-twosey work, hence low powered and probably budget priced.

Anyway that was not a real cutting test so we've learned nothing of the machine's actual merit. Therefore this poll is pointless. It's a beauty pageant where the contestant is judged only by her ankles.

Mid Day Machining
11-07-2015, 01:18 PM
In my search for more information about the Wabeco lathes, I came across this video showing 10mm of alumiunium being removed in one pass (looks like 5mm from each side). The translated description says

material AlCuMgPb
Delivery in 10mm
Feed 0.08mm per revolution

I can't see myself ever being in such a hurry to remove this much metal in one pass, but I am wondering if this video says anything about the robustness or quality of the lathe. Is it an impressive demonstration, or could other similarly sized lathes do the same thing?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRV7DM9zyLI

That video is almost a waste of time. The video is 1:13 long and the tool sat on one position for almost 30 seconds.

PStechPaul
11-07-2015, 01:23 PM
I have mostly used small cuts at low speeds with my HF 9x20, but I'm sure it would be capable of this, so I'm not impressed. Also, the fact that the video is amateurish with the camera hand-held makes it unlikely that this is in any way serious marketing hype.

wierdscience
11-07-2015, 01:36 PM
The Taiwan lathe you posted earlier would do just about double that with the correct insert and never break a sweat.The Wabeco is just way overpriced for what you get,not to mention,does it even come with any chucks or tooling?

Paul Alciatore
11-07-2015, 04:06 PM
I think the video is aimed at people who make everything from "BILLET". I am sure they will be very impressed.

Black_Moons
11-07-2015, 04:20 PM
On my 12x36, that pass would have been completed in 3 seconds or less, and work hardened shards of aluminum would be flying everywhere, and you would hear the 2HP motor bog down to 70~80% normal RPM. Finish would have been awful but id have more then enough time to take another pass to clean it up. Feed rate matters.

becksmachine
11-07-2015, 06:20 PM
Kinda like watching ads for pickups where they are jumping sand dunes or pulling trailers with "great big loads" of culvert.

Almost totally irrelevant to the uses that they are used for in daily applications.

Dave

pinstripe
11-07-2015, 07:16 PM
Thanks for all your votes and responses. Here are some answers and comments. Just in case you missed it above, I have no relationship with this company. I have seriously considered buying their product, but my only contact with them has been a few emails to ask questions. My buying choices are very limited here, and they are basically the only option beyond the rebadged Chinese and Taiwanese lathes.


I'm not particulary (sp) impressed. Its speeds and feeds folks. The feed is probably around .001 to . 002 per revolution.

It's .003 according to the description.



What is this lathe, a benchtop? If so think it bodes well for a small lathe. If you can take a 1/2" DOC with a benchtop lathe, its fair to say its at least one indicator of a decent machine.

Yes, small benchtop. 184 kg (405 lb).



Also, the fact that the video is amateurish with the camera hand-held makes it unlikely that this is in any way serious marketing hype.

This video was probably taken at a trade show, or maybe by a new owner testing it. I don't think it's official video from the manufacturer. But I did read over at PM that Wabeco used to advertise that their lathe could remove 10mm in one pass. So they obviously think it's some kind of achievement. That is why I asked the question.



Kinda like watching ads for pickups where they are jumping sand dunes or pulling trailers with "great big loads" of culvert. Almost totally irrelevant to the uses that they are used for in daily applications.

Agreed. I was only interested in knowing wether this type of rigidity/performance was typical for a small lathe.



I am curious as to the alloy, particularly as it appears to be leaded. It is it a free turning aluminum? Is there a comparable US alloy?

No idea what it would be called in the US. I found some info at http://www.aluminiumcentrum.com/en/vlastnosti8.html



The Taiwan lathe you posted earlier would do just about double that with the correct insert and never break a sweat.The Wabeco is just way overpriced for what you get,not to mention,does it even come with any chucks or tooling?

It comes with a chuck, tool post and center. Everything else is extra (and expensive). There is no doubt that the Wabeco is expensive, but the relatively small size is attractive as I have limited space.



Hell, the motor didn't even load up... Anyway, it looked like a 1/2 HP cut to me... If you're gonna do a full load cut test, you need to select material, tool, feeds and speeds that work the machine right up to its motor's rated full load amps... hence low powered and probably budget priced.

I assume they are demoing it with the large motor, which has a claimed 2.68 HP. The standard motor is 1.87 HP. That might be why it didn't stress the motor. It's definitely not an underpowered lathe for its size, and not aimed at the budget end of the market. The motor upgrade alone is a $3,000 option. But I think you have a point in that it wouldn't have worked out so well if they took a cut deep enough to stress the motor.

Rich Carlstedt
11-07-2015, 07:34 PM
Material is German Din 1712,1725,1732 and is called 3.1645 AlCuMgPb
Canadian 28 S
British H 15
American 2011 Aluminum

From Eagle Steels website "2011 is the most machinable of the commonly available aluminum alloys. Machining this alloy can produce excellent
surface finishes on your product, and small, broken chips."

Rich

Above from Reynolds Aluminum " Structural Aluminum Design" Book

lakeside53
11-07-2015, 07:44 PM
I assume they are demoing it with the large motor, which has a claimed 2.68 HP. The standard motor is 1.87 HP. That might be why it didn't stress the motor. It's definitely not an underpowered lathe for its size, and not aimed at the budget end of the market. The motor upgrade alone is a $3,000 option. But I think you have a point in that it wouldn't have worked out so well if they took a cut deep enough to stress the motor.

$3000 for a motor upgrade? lol.

Take care with the "2.68 hp". If the variable sped is via a vfd, you only get that hp above some base frequency. At lower speeds you may have substantially less.

Personally... I would NOT pay the money for that lathe. I'd buy a used Emco V11 Super (Austrian made/quality) and take a tropical vacation for a couple of weeks with what's left over.

pinstripe
11-07-2015, 08:06 PM
Second hand market is not very good where I am, that is why I am looking at new lathes.

The standard motor is described as
Sigle-phase series commutator motor as a direct current model, infinitiely variable with continuous r.p.m surveillance

The larger motor is
Motor with rotary frequency converter infinitely variable with continous r.p.m surveillance and clockwiese/anticlockwise rotation

They claim "constant torque throughout the entire speed range".

I don't know much about motors. Does anyone know what this actually means?

lakeside53
11-07-2015, 09:18 PM
Yes, torque is constant, but with electronic control HP is proportional to rpm. If you use a gearbox or pulley (ignoring loses) then torque multiplies by the ratio - so hp is relatively constant as rpm is reduced, so it's not a issue. Yes, electronically you can (within limits) boost torque at low rpm and a few other tricks, but it's small. HP is what does the work.

Example : Rough rule of thumb - about 1 hp to remove 1 cubic inch of mild steel in one minute. If all you have at a particular speed is 1/4 hp, then you can remove about 1/4 cubic inch/minute.


In the poor (translation issues...) motor description above the first sounds like a series wound DC motor maybe with tach feedback; the second reads like a VFD drive motor Could be a real servo but I doubt it.

JoeLee
11-07-2015, 10:32 PM
I can do that with my Clausing.

JL...................

darryl
11-07-2015, 11:17 PM
Seems to me a 3/8 drill bit takes about that much of a bite, and you can drill at a decent clip with 1/2 horse or less. With a lathe motor 'geared' down to some extent already, I don't see that it would take an undue amount of torque to make that cut- and particularly if the material is as easy to cut as has been suggested. I agree- that doesn't seem to prove anything. I think a better test would be to make a cut that really loads the motor- then see whether there's chatter or other signs of lack of rigidity.

flylo
11-08-2015, 12:41 AM
I can do that with my Clausing.

JL...................

I can do it faster on the Pacemaker which I have less into than I sold the Wabeco for:cool:

macona
11-08-2015, 12:44 AM
Yes, torque is constant, but with electronic control HP is proportional to rpm. If you use a gearbox or pulley (ignoring loses) then torque multiplies by the ratio - so hp is relatively constant as rpm is reduced, so it's not a issue. Yes, electronically you can (within limits) boost torque at low rpm and a few other tricks, but it's small. HP is what does the work.

Example : Rough rule of thumb - about 1 hp to remove 1 cubic inch of mild steel in one minute. If all you have at a particular speed is 1/4 hp, then you can remove about 1/4 cubic inch/minute.


In the poor (translation issues...) motor description above the first sounds like a series wound DC motor maybe with tach feedback; the second reads like a VFD drive motor Could be a real servo but I doubt it.

I would say permanent magnet brushless motor, it does not have a encoder for feedback, just hall sensors for commutation.

J Tiers
11-08-2015, 01:27 AM
I can do that on the Logan 10", but generally not at that RPM. At least not in steel, and not with a carbide insert at neutral rake (that one looks like it has a positive rake). The flat belt limits HP to about 0.25 at many speeds.

No Idea what the Logan would do with aluminum alloy, I don't have a piece I want to waste doing that.

pinstripe
11-08-2015, 01:58 AM
I would say permanent magnet brushless motor, it does not have a encoder for feedback, just hall sensors for commutation.

I dug around some more. I think the motor is manufactured by a company called Hanning. The range is called Varicon, but I cannot find information for a 2 kW version. It's described as a "Three-phase AC motor with integrated frequency inverter"

Brochure
http://www.hanning-hew.de/wEnglisch/download/Prospekte/AT/081029_VARICON_E_web.pdf

Manual (222 pages!)
http://www.hanning-hew.de/wEnglisch/download/Prospekte/AT/OI_65158_VARICON_new_model_range_08-07.pdf

Looks like the smarts are built into the motor. I doubt that I would wear it out, but replacing it could be tricky if they are NLA.

pinstripe
11-08-2015, 01:59 AM
I don't have a piece I want to waste doing that.

Imagine how much aluminium they must burn through at an exhibition. Might explain some of the pricing :)

macona
11-08-2015, 03:23 AM
Looks like it is just a VFD built into the motor.

tc429
11-08-2015, 09:27 AM
didnt read all the posts, but- watch the end when the spindle stops- theres a kinda 'flat' toolmark lengththwise about half the cut- I am guessing the flat was the result of the knocking sound it made during the cut- whether the chuck was wobbling a bit, or maybe just a burned drive belt was causing tension pulses/knocking against a idler or what, who knows... anyway doesnt 'sound' impressive.

most impressive 'lathe' I ever worked on was a 4 axis autospin we retrofitted to a Fanuc 15TT-F back in '90...it could 'flowform' a cold 1" wall section aluminum semi wheel down against a mandrel finishing with a .4 wall in seconds...looked like a potters wheel the way the forging would flex, bow to shape...thing was 300hp, with a 8" wide timing belt, when spooling up to max rpm it sounded like a 747 taking off just from the belt whine...20 ton thrust capability on all 4 axes, the headstock alone weighed about 3 tons, plus a ton of mandrel, had 175 hp just in the hydraulic pumps...used these cool 'Olsen" cylinders to actuate the slides, kinda worked like a power steering setup...pop-can sized 4/0 servo turned a sleeve with a pin that ran in a spiral thread, servo turned, pushed or pulled the threaded part axially shifting the valve spool, moving the piston...piston had hollow rod, ballnut atached, screw floated in the rod, axial piston motion caused the ballscrew to backdrive, rotating the spiral/threaed part back into the servo sleeve...only time Ive ever seen a ballscrew used solely for feedback, put other than maybe .001 backlask in the sleeve/pin/spriral it would effortlessly move that cylinder precisely with 20 tons force exactly where you put it within a thou... anyways, that was the most impressive 'lathe' like operation I'd ever seen- Olsen was founded by Zenny Olsen in Germany- apparently one smart cookie, definitely did some 'outside the box' thinking :) Autoospin was also german, actually sat in on a meeting with Helmut Korte when we were competing with the OEM on the retrofit work, customer decided to have us do it with Fanuc, where Germany prefers Seimens...Mr Korte is another smart cookie- likely the most knowledgable guy on earth when it came to spinning wheels... our customers guy was Frank Tripp, I got to work with him off and on for several years- brilliant man, great guy to work with...those that recall the story about John Glenn's heat shield problem, where they were afraid he was gonna burn up, but it ended up just being damaged sensors? old Frank forged that heat shield out of Beryllium copper in Cleveland. he passed away a few years ago, sure miss that dude.

vpt
11-08-2015, 10:03 AM
Pffft, I could do that with granite in my atlas!

lakeside53
11-08-2015, 10:55 AM
I could do that to your atlas with my Polamco! ;)

vpt
11-08-2015, 06:00 PM
I could do that to your polamco with my miller. :D

Forrest Addy
11-08-2015, 06:12 PM
I could... Um. Uh. What was the topic?