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View Full Version : Retaining nut wrenches, or how to save wear and tear on the cold chisel



becksmachine
11-13-2015, 12:45 AM
Sadly, the Pond Machine Tool Co. lathe has been retired to the hayshed. It faces an uncertain future as there have been no replies to either Craigslist or Ebay ads.

Recently I was asked to quote the machine work on some rollers, 10 1/2" dia., one of which was just short of 11' long overall including the protruding shafts on each end. With my trusty tape measure in hand, I set about determining if I could possibly fit that long piece into the Pond. With the tailstock hanging halfway off the end of the bed, I determined that if I sacrificed the tapered hole in the spindle and bored it out to about 4" dia. about 12" deep to swallow the shaft on one end, it would fit. Ok, I can do that! However on reflection I had my doubts that I could meet the .002" dia. tolerance with the tailstock on such a tenuous perch. What to do??

I had wanted to upgrade to a "modern" lathe for some time, something built maybe AFTER WWII?? With actual rolling element bearings :) But could never find anything that I liked for less than 50-60K and that did not appeal to the cheap bastard that is my boss. :rolleyes:

In any event, I did find a beautiful American Pacemaker that I could afford, so naturally after delivery I have to take it apart and check it out. Usually when a lathe has a coolant system, the coolant gets everywhere and has a nasty habit of collecting in the bottom of the apron and forming sludge. When this happens the pump(s) that pump out of the apron to lubricate the ways get clogged and with no lubrication the carriage and cross slide get really hard to move and wear on the ways is obviously greatly accelerated. As the aforementioned cheap bastard is also a lazy SOB this just will not do. When a lathe has rapids, this usually makes no difference to a lot of guys, the company will buy a new one. I guess self-employment gives a person a different set of priorities.

So, to the point of the story. I have always cringed when I encountered one of those bearing retaining nuts (Timken nut?) that has the 4 peripheral slots to be used with a hook spanner to tighten and loosen. Invariably they have been victimized by someone with a chisel or screw driver gashing the corners of the slots. Sometimes this is the only way to accomplish the task, especially when the nut is located somewhere in the middle of the shaft. However when the nut is on the end of the shaft, the accompanying photos illustrate an alternative method that I have used in the past.

And, as it turns out, in this case it was physically impossible to apply a chisel or screwdriver to loosen the offending nut. It was located at the bottom of a 6" deep recess, so the use of such destructive methods was somewhat limited.

Naturally I didn't have the size needed for this particular N-05 nut, so after determining that none of those quick and dirty methods could be employed, I was forced to take the time to move myself to the operating position of the Lodge & Shipley and commence construction of another unit to expand the series that I already had.

The bodies are variously Stressproof and 4140 with hardened dowel pins, cut with an abrasive wheel with a press fit in the body, as driving lugs. 1/2" square holes are broached to fit ratchets and extensions, and I did take the time to drill holes to allow the ball retainers of said attachments to have an effect. However extended use with impact wrenches beats the square holes out enough to invalidate this feature making the use of pin type retainers necessary if you don't want the socket falling off under it's own weight.

Dave

[URL="http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/Timken%20Wrenches/IMG_2649.jpg

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/Timken%20Wrenches/IMG_2652.jpg

becksmachine
11-13-2015, 12:46 AM
More pics

Dave

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/Timken%20Wrenches/IMG_2651.jpg

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/Timken%20Wrenches/IMG_2655.jpg[/URL]

10KPete
11-13-2015, 12:54 AM
By golly, someone is doing it right!!

Pete

wierdscience
11-13-2015, 01:04 AM
Looks good,you should make those and sell them :cool:

Black Forest
11-13-2015, 02:15 AM
Very nice! Can I have them? Please include the other sizes as well.:cool:

boslab
11-13-2015, 04:23 AM
I always thought notch nuts came pre damaged to save chisel time myself (after finding a packet in the stores in work with a mangled one in someone had put back in the plastic bin by mistake, I relabelled the bin pre damaged nuts)
Nice job, the things won't get much action though, if it were me I'd put them somewhere prominent otherwise I'd forget I had them!
I used to get problems with face pin spanner loss, bloody welders used to pinch them for thier angle grinders, I came up with an idea, drill two holes in an adjustable wrench for some removable pins, worked well
Nice work
Mark

Spin Doctor
11-13-2015, 09:23 AM
Looks good,you should make those and sell them :cool:

Whittet Higgins beat you to it
http://www.whittet-higgins.com/part.php?series_id=75

chipmaker4130
11-13-2015, 10:06 AM
Those look great, and the story was well written too!

J Tiers
11-13-2015, 10:19 AM
So, what's wrong with a hook spanner?

lakeside53
11-13-2015, 11:38 AM
They still have their place (like on nuts along a shaft where you can't get access to the end) but they don't work for beans in tight situations. I have several types of "hook" wrenches, and made similar to Dave's above by milling impact sockets to make 4 fingers. Mine are "one -off" use - Dave's will hold up much better. I also made some from "pipe" 8-10 inches long.

If you need a specified torque, socket types are the way to go.

justanengineer
11-13-2015, 01:15 PM
Looks great to me! I've got a few odd spanner sockets but not a complete set, definitely handy tools to have available. One of these days I might have to make a few, I'm thinking that might be a good use for Chinese impact sockets.

becksmachine
11-13-2015, 10:15 PM
So, what's wrong with a hook spanner?

Judge for yourself.

:rolleyes:

Dave

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/Timken%20Wrenches/IMG_2657.jpg

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/Timken%20Wrenches/IMG_2659.jpg

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/Timken%20Wrenches/IMG_2665.jpg

Spin Doctor
11-13-2015, 10:45 PM
I've made a number of these over the years. Rough and ready ones as needed for repair jobs at my currentg job. Usually an old nut if available is used as a "master" to make the wrench or socket. My old job I made both shallow and deep well retaining nut sockets for the sizes I was consrantly dealing with. Used 4140 hardend and drawn back to 45RC. Worked great until one of the yahoos on night shift saw them and figured they were just the thing to use with an impact gun when disassembling multi spindle drill heads. anothr option for retaining nuts down in a hole like the one in the picture above is a basin wrench.

thaiguzzi
11-13-2015, 10:52 PM
Judge for yourself.

:rolleyes:

Dave

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/Timken%20Wrenches/IMG_2657.jpg

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/Timken%20Wrenches/IMG_2659.jpg

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/Timken%20Wrenches/IMG_2665.jpg

That is, erm, the perfect reply. Nice work by the way.

Spin Doctor
11-13-2015, 11:12 PM
These type of nuts are simply called retaining nuts. We used to call them SKF nuts as most of he ones we saw ere made by them. Who knows, maybe they developed them first. They come in a variety of types. The familiar mechanical locking type with the coresponding tabbed washer. They also come in a NyLock style with a plastic compression ring built into the nut. Also there are a number of types that use either set screws to lock a brass plug against the thread or to compress the nut against the thread. In this instance slots are either milled in the face of the nut or a saw cut is made from the ID of the nut that then turns concentric to the threads. The initial cut from the inside is trailing to the set screw. This forms a leaf that is forced against the threads. Another type uses tapered pipe plugs that screw into slots that are concentric to the thread. The plugs expand the outside and compress the inside locking the nut inplace. The plugs are usually 1/16-27 NPT.

As to tools used on these nuts there are hook spanners, face spanners, impact spanners and sockets. The nuts come in both inch and metric thread pitches. I'm not sure but the thread OD may be the same for both inch and metric

Paul Alciatore
11-14-2015, 12:05 AM
Nice job!

JoeLee
11-14-2015, 03:23 PM
Those spanner nut sockets are nice, but the draw back is the OD of the socket is larger than the nut it was made for. OK in some instances but I've run across a lot things where the spanner nut is recessed in a casting and you can't fit the socket into the hole so yo need a spanner socket that isn't any larger than the OD of the nut.
I not sure if spanner nuts have standard OD sizes like nuts and bolts do.
I've had to make a few over the years. The one pictured I made for removing the nut on my BP mill. I think I have another one somewhere that I made to remove the spanners from my 4x4 lock out hubs.

JL.................

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/Spanner%20Nut%20Socket/Image001_zps8n85bqdu.jpg (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/JoeLee09/media/Spanner%20Nut%20Socket/Image001_zps8n85bqdu.jpg.html)
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/Spanner%20Nut%20Socket/Image002_zpsirek2cut.jpg (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/JoeLee09/media/Spanner%20Nut%20Socket/Image002_zpsirek2cut.jpg.html)
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/Spanner%20Nut%20Socket/Image003_zpsr0e9emrp.jpg (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/JoeLee09/media/Spanner%20Nut%20Socket/Image003_zpsr0e9emrp.jpg.html)

becksmachine
11-14-2015, 06:49 PM
Those spanner nut sockets are nice, but the draw back is the OD of the socket is larger than the nut it was made for. OK in some instances but I've run across a lot things where the spanner nut is recessed in a casting and you can't fit the socket into the hole so yo need a spanner socket that isn't any larger than the OD of the nut.


Haven't run into that problem yet, looks like you showed us how to fix it when I do.

:)

Dave

mattthemuppet
11-14-2015, 07:05 PM
great looking sockets!

I made a similar castle tool to get the damper out of my mountain bike fork
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p752/mattthemuppet/IMG_3317_zpsc5b602fa.jpg

I've sadly needed to use it more than once, damn turd rocket.

vpt
11-15-2015, 02:52 PM
I welded studs to a socket to fit the ford 4x4 hub nuts.

MGREEN
11-15-2015, 05:26 PM
Here was my take on the problem back in December 2011.
A little crude when compared to the above examples,
but it worked well enough.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/51693-M-head-step-pulley-bearing-nut/page2?highlight=mgreen
Mike

Doozer
11-16-2015, 08:25 AM
I love love love the radial dowel pins.
Clever design. I may have to use that
some day.

http://www.whittet-higgins.com/

I thought these guys invented the bearing retaining nut.
Commonly called "N" nuts (or "KM" nuts for metric sizes).

--Doozer