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John Stevenson
01-02-2016, 06:53 PM
Now anyone of a delicate disposition, that's anyone who feels the Teletubbies are violent do not read the following.

Over the last few days I have been doing shop maintenance on machines etc as it's one of the few times per year I can catch up.

Silly things like making sure all the nuts and bolts on the mill share the same 3/4" A/F spanner instead of hunting different tools out.
Same for the lathe chucks which in my case are 'A' series that bolt on. I much prefer these to camlocks as they cannot come loose on heavy interrupted cuts like laser cut plates. 8 different chucks means 32 nuts and over the time having been sourced from different suppliers has again finished up with different spanner sizes.

Anyway today I started to address the tailstock problem on the TOS lathe. It's my belief that only the British can design a decent tailstock. The Chinese / Taiwanese don't stand a cat in hells chance and TOS / Eastern European are only second place behind them. The only thing TOS have going for them is, if a 10 lb casting will do, they have to use 25 lbs.

So the problems.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock1.jpg

Three things wrong with it.
[1] Usual ejects the taper before getting back to zero which is just sorting the screw out.
[2] Locking for the tailstock. From new this was just a long threaded rod into the bottom clamp and a nut and washer on the top which means using / finding a spanner every time and it wasn't as easy as fitting a simple handle as it needs about two full turns to clamp up because of the clamp design.

The system shown was one I did many years ago and the idea pinched off Honda as that is how they operate the clutch on the C50 / C90 step thru's although they use ball bearings in between. It gives the facility to lift the rod a long way with a short travel.
It's worked well for years but never been pleased with it's looks and it will be in the way when I continue to modify this tailstock and fit a lever and screw feed.

[3] Biggest drawback is just that. This thing is massive and the base is over long with the problem you start off with the barrel half way out to reach the work, not made any better since fitting a cross slide DRO.
Now this is where it gets messy. Measured up and Deb's Bantam has a 6 1/2" long tailstock, my Chinese lathe which is bigger than the TOS also has a 6 1/2" long tailstock. If this one is cut off to make it flat fronted and get rid of the overhang it would still be 7" long. Stripped down, no spindle, clamps etc, just a bare casting this puppy weights 33Kg !!

So stick it on the power saw and cut from both sides because of the blade angle and then onto the mill to clean up.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock2.jpg

However the cut was so good and it's only a casting I just cleaned it up with the angle grinder and a flap wheel. It will need a repaint anyway.

Offer it back up and jobs a good un.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock3.jpg

Gained an extra 48mm of space and a nice lump of cast iron to boot.

Next up is problem [2], so stick it on the mill by it's nose and clamp down.
Accurately mark out where the hole for the clamp stud is and start drilling and boring out.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock4.jpg

John Stevenson
01-02-2016, 06:54 PM
Bore out to 50mm diameter and 50mm deep because it sounds nice numbers, and remove.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock5.jpg

That's as far as I have got tonight, now took some measurements and retreated into the scribble pit ™ to work out how to get an eccentric locking system fitted into the hole.

Got sidetracked yesterday on something else so picked this up today but didn't get a chance to do any scribbling so in the best laid plans, weld it where it touches.
First job, new shorter pull stud and link for the top and square nut for the bottom. The bottom nut fits in a slotted recess as it can't turn, that is the adjustment.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock6.jpg

Eccentric was made out of a lump of scrapbinium ™ and turned to fit the hole, groove in for a retaining screw, 10mm hardened dowel pin fitted 10mm on the eccentric and a hexagon put on the outboard end but more on this after the other couple of pics.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock7.jpg

When the line on the hexagon is lined with the vertical line 'F' then it's free to slide, rotate it about 30 degrees with a spanner and it's locked, tried driving it back with the saddle under power but the clutch on the feed slips so that's me one happy bunny.

That is a cut down 11/16 Whit socket on the bed that's fit the hexagon, chose that size as I have three of them and won't miss one.

Because this has genuinely all been done with no drawings or sketches I wasn't sure where the handle would fit and at what angle it would come out if I fitted it directly to the eccentric.
So the idea is to shrink this cut down socket into a thick walled sleeve and I have 12 positions now to get it somewhere near and if I do cock up then it's a simple job to turn the sleeve off and start again.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock8.jpg

Socket fitted to see how much room I have without fouling the handwheel [ not fitted at this point ].

So tomorrow, sleeve to do, handle to do, refit the iGauging DRO and a stop sleeve on the front so it hits the saddle before anything else does. That will make it a far nicer machine to use.
At a later day I plan to follow on with a lever / screw feed tailstock.

Tundra Twin Track
01-02-2016, 07:25 PM
[QUOTE=John Stevenson;1023094]Now anyone of a delicate disposition, that's anyone who feels the Teletubbies are violent do not read the following.

Over the last few days I have been doing shop maintenance on machines etc as it's one of the few times per year I can catch up.

Silly things like making sure all the nuts and bolts on the mill share the same 3/4" A/F spanner instead of hunting different tools out.
Same for the lathe chucks which in my case are 'A' series that bolt on. I much prefer these to camlocks as they cannot come loose on heavy interrupted cuts like laser cut plates. 8 different chucks means 32 nuts and over the time having been sourced from different suppliers has again finished up with different spanner sizes.

Anyway today I started to address the tailstock problem on the TOS lathe. It's my belief that only the British can design a decent tailstock. The Chinese / Taiwanese don't stand a cat in hells chance and TOS / Eastern European are only second place behind them. The only thing TOS have going for them is, if a 10 lb casting will do, they have to use 25 lbs.

Hey John I have a 18x60 JFMT lathe made in China,a clone of a Mazak and it has a very stout tail stock I guess 100-150 lbs.
It has a 2 speed 4to1 ratio which is real handy for drilling those big holes.

Nice work on the tail stock!

wierdscience
01-02-2016, 09:40 PM
So adding a bit of room for the DRO scale and fixing the obvious factory f--kup of no cam lock,good.

I think the Taiwanese,Koreans and Japanese do pretty good on TS design,China not so much.My personal favorite in a medium lathe is Hendey,been using one for years.Good all around design and a positive cam locking design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j856-DVu86A

JRouche
01-02-2016, 10:11 PM
Tellatubbies?? Thats a food group right? Sounds like a Vegetarian thing :)

The TOS?? Hahaa, thats why folk want them. The heft they are. BIG solid lathe.

My lil southbend spits the taper out also. Its irritating. And its with all tapers, meaning tangless. Something you get used to running s SB 10l. My tailstock lock is a rod and below clamp also.

Great pictures, thanks for your story. Read every word... JR

boslab
01-03-2016, 12:52 AM
Neat bit of butchering, like the marking out, "there", like there be buried treasure under the X!
It was a monster TS, belonged on a big Bins and Berry or DSG
Mark

John Stevenson
01-03-2016, 07:31 PM
Last lap.



http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock9.jpg



DRO fitted, stop on the front fitted so it doesn't whack the cross slide DRO and handle made and fitted.

This is the handle in the unlocked position, tailstock hand wheel removed for ease of fitting and clarity.



http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock10.jpg



Handle in the locked position, no spring, dead positive in operation.



http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/TOS%20Tailstock11.jpg



All finished working. Two very strong magnets fitted to the side to hold the toolpost and chuck spanner.

Need a plug to fit in the original clamp hole and drilled 5.8mm to hold the allen key for the quick change tool-posts.



Very pleased with this mod, should save some time in all the winding in and out but just makes it so much nicer to use.

EddyCurr
01-04-2016, 01:08 AM
Two very strong magnets fitted to the side to hold the
toolpost and chuck spanner.This is your machine for non-ferrous ?

.

John Stevenson
01-04-2016, 04:56 AM
No all materials.
Have had magnets on it for ages, just that these are a bit more powerful.
Once the spanner is in place it's more like closed loop and don't get a problem with bits sticking.
With no spanner attached the magnets do catch bit but they soon wipe off. It's a 14 x 40 lathe and so the TS isn't on top of the chuck all the while.

EddyCurr
01-04-2016, 01:40 PM
Hadn't thought of the spanner acting as a keeper, but
I suppose that is what is happening.

As always, enjoy these threads of applied ingenuity.

Peculiar thing about this TS mod of yours is how I get
downright thirsty each time I study photos of the final
result.

.

Peter S
01-05-2016, 07:55 AM
John,

I like the improvements, it begins to look like the best I have used, the Graziano Sag 12 and Sag 14 tailstocks. These are true "one hand" tailstocks. With your right hand you can unclamp and push or pull the tailstock (easily) along the bed. Lock with the same one hand and begin turning the hand wheel. The palm of your hand doesn't leave the hand wheel. It is very easy to unlock and push the tailstock back to clear a drill.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/PeterS/Sag%2012%20tailstock%2001_zpsxl8kmqea.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PeterS/media/Sag%2012%20tailstock%2001_zpsxl8kmqea.jpg.html)

becksmachine
01-07-2016, 03:13 AM
Hmm, Bodgers Lodge? Are you by any chance referring to the Lodge & Shipley that I did a somewhat similar modification to?

:)

So does anyone know why an obviously superior and much more ergonomic design for any machine part is not universally adopted by everyone? I bet there are lathes in the TOS factory that have quick acting tailstock locks, but you surely don't expect us to put them on machines that we sell to others?? That very feature got me fired once as I insisted on using the Jap lathe, as the Mazak was called in that shop, because it had the quick acting tailstock lock for a peck drilling operation. Instead I was told to use that big ol Sidney, which actually was a nice machine but talk about heavy tailstocks!! I bet that tailstock weighed 500 pounds and I was not in eager anticipation of cranking that SOB back and forth peck drilling holes in 8' long shafts.

But I digress;

Like Mr. Stevenson, I wanted to toss the spanner needed to lock the tailstock down. It is not quite as onerous when the nut is on top, allowing a 360 swing of an appropriate wrench. But when the actuating nut is on the side, it is truly a pain in numerous body parts having to yank and re-set a box end wrench 3 or 6 times to get the tailstock locked down.

The photos show my interpretation of the Stevenson Quick Acting Cam Lock principal.

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/L%20%20S%20tailstock%20lock%20lever/IMG_2803.jpg

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/L%20%20S%20tailstock%20lock%20lever/IMG_2805.jpg

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/L%20%20S%20tailstock%20lock%20lever/IMG_2806.jpg

Dave

RichR
01-07-2016, 11:48 AM
So does anyone know why an obviously superior and much more ergonomic design for any machine part is not universally adopted by everyone?
Probably because the designers and drafts people are paper pushers and bean counters designing the machine for tolerances,
capacity, and manufacturability. Possibly ego too. Copying a superior idea would mean admitting someone else's design was
better than yours. It's no different than the auto industry. Imagine if everyone involved with the engine compartment design
was required to spend a week every 4 months servicing what they designed using only the tools found in an automotive repair
shop. No special Ford #XYZ type tools allowed. Do the same with anyone involved with the spare tire. Strand them in the middle
of nowhere with a flat tire, take away their cell phones, and leave them to change the tire with that crappy jack the the 10" tire
iron they designed. People involved in the design of something also need to be end users for positive change to occur.

Now I have a question for you. In the second picture, what is that thing with the red handle hanging off the side of the tail stock?

Normanv
01-07-2016, 12:12 PM
RichR, I have to take exception to your comments re draughtsmen (proper spelling). Many (many many) years ago I worked as a junior draughtsman ( pr... you get the idea) for a company in the UK producing strapping machines. Although I never had to work in the factory I did have to face the men working there. They either just made what I drew, work or I got it right. It has all faded in time, but between us we got it right!

Euph0ny
01-07-2016, 12:20 PM
...what is that thing with the red handle hanging off the side of the tail stock?

Not my picture, but I'd guess it's a crank handle for a rack and pinion arrangement which moves that heavy tailstock along the bed... if you look carefully, you can see the rack.

becksmachine
01-07-2016, 12:33 PM
Probably because the designers and drafts people are paper pushers and bean counters designing the machine for tolerances,
capacity, and manufacturability. Possibly ego too. Copying a superior idea would mean admitting someone else's design was
better than yours. It's no different than the auto industry. Imagine if everyone involved with the engine compartment design
was required to spend a week every 4 months servicing what they designed using only the tools found in an automotive repair
shop. No special Ford #XYZ type tools allowed. Do the same with anyone involved with the spare tire. Strand them in the middle
of nowhere with a flat tire, take away their cell phones, and leave them to change the tire with that crappy jack the the 10" tire
iron they designed. People involved in the design of something also need to be end users for positive change to occur.


You are so cynical!! :) But probably right.

But yes, an elegant explanation of the issue.




Now I have a question for you. In the second picture, what is that thing with the red handle hanging off the side of the tail stock?

That thing with the red handle is the crank for the come along that makes it a little easier to position the tailstock along the bed. It engages the carriage longitudinal feed rack.

Dave

RichR
01-07-2016, 01:00 PM
RichR, I have to take exception to your comments re draughtsmen (proper spelling). Many (many many) years ago I worked as a junior draughtsman ( pr... you get the idea) for a company in the UK producing strapping machines. Although I never had to work in the factory I did have to face the men working there. They either just made what I drew, work or I got it right. It has all faded in time, but between us we got it right!

Which just proves my point, you were not working in a vacuum. So in fairness, my previous statement:

People involved in the design of something also need to be end users for positive change to occur.
Should have been:

People involved in the design of something also need to be end users or influenced by end users for positive change to occur.

RichR
01-07-2016, 01:07 PM
Dave
Yes, I am cynical, and a frequent skeptic as well.

That thing with the red handle is the crank for the come along that makes it a little easier to position the tailstock along the bed. It engages the carriage longitudinal feed rack.
That makes sense. Thanks.

Hopefuldave
01-07-2016, 04:15 PM
[QUOTE=RichR;1024037]
Imagine if everyone involved with the engine compartment design
was required to spend a week every 4 months servicing what they designed using only the tools found in an automotive repair
shop. No special Ford #XYZ type tools allowed. Do the same with anyone involved with the spare tire. Strand them in the middle
of nowhere with a flat tire, take away their cell phones, and leave them to change the tire with that crappy jack the the 10" tire
iron they designed. People involved in the design of something also need to be end users for positive change to occur.
QUOTE]

If they even SUPPLY a spare tyre...

I helped a guy at work with a flat in his own car, he had a rented Renault people-carrier after ferrying some customers around and couldn't find his own jack so we looked for one in the rental - for about 20 minutes, lifting seats, under the bonnet, everywhere.
In the "owners manual" there's a nice page that tells you to take it to a main dealer if a tyre needs changing, a spare, jack, wheelbrace aren't supplied. So I guess with a flat at 3am in the middle of nowhere you have to get it recovered on a truck...

Same with a common-or-garden headlamp or tail-lamp bulbs, no user-serviceable parts.

If you can't fix it, you don't own it.

Dave H. (the other one)