Re: "...abusing...the noob"

[QSIMDO]

So, here we are, new Asian or old domestic machine in place.
Both need attention to perform to an "acceptable level".
Preface "acceptable level" with absolutely NO delusion of emulating professional machinist or machine shop performance.
This is The Home Shop Machinist after all.

Good money after bad?
I have a dovetail column mill; ZAY 45 edition, which has turned out some decent projects but has also pissed me off since the beginning.
The absolute devil to tram, ways get tight at the ends, screws/nuts machined by metal eating termites, etc., etc. .

I've been quoted $100 per hour by a rebuilding service for regrinding precision surfaces and I'm resigned to at least $2k overall to bring this into spec.

More for conversation than anything else because I have to "run what I brung" but I see the same option if it was a Bridgeport or Van Norman or you name it.
At least with this machine, this old man can break it down by myself and muscle the components.
I'm never going to machine anything large enough to justify a commercial sized mill and this fits nicely in the scheme of my life.

OK, my train of thought left the station without me and I'm tired of hearing myself talk so someone else's turn now if you care.

[gaston]

when I was a freshly minted aviation machinest mate ( wrench turner in the Navy) in 1963 I found a blacksmith shop in Lemoore Calif. (It was a great place to hang out and learn stuff) I asked the old man how he could work with the antique worn out shaft driven equipment? I bet there was a turn or more of slop in the cross slide on his huge old lathe, and the old drill press and mill were worse!
The answers I got to my questions have stuck with me my whole life.
"he said learn your equipment and how to get the most from it ,the skill and finish is not in the machine but the operators ability to use it.

[David Powell]

when I was a freshly minted aviation machinest mate ( wrench turner in the Navy) in 1963 I found a blacksmith shop in Lemoore Calif. (It was a great place to hang out and learn stuff) I asked the old man how he could work with the antique worn out shaft driven equipment? I bet there was a turn or more of slop in the cross slide on his huge old lathe, and the old drill press and mill were worse!
The answers I got to my questions have stuck with me my whole life.
"he said learn your equipment and how to get the most from it ,the skill and finish is not in the machine but the operators ability to use it.

The real problem here is that a raw beginner cannot possibly know enough to get the best from old, tired or simply poor equipment. No amount of reading, listening to experienced people or internet browsing will replace experience. I would always advise beginners to buy the best they can afford rather than something cheaper which might or might not do the job in their hands. You would not teach someone to drive a car in one with 4" of play at the steering wheel and only one gear left in the box--- or would you??? Regards David Powell.

[pinstripe]

The real problem here is that a raw beginner cannot possibly know enough to get the best from old, tired or simply poor equipment.

It goes back one step further than that. They have to buy the machine first. I only looked at one used machine. I'd read a bit on the internet and watched Tom Lipton's video on evaluating a lathe. But I really didn't know enough to be comfortable with my evaluation. Taking a knowledgeable friend is ideal, but not everyone can do that.

[J Tiers]

The other half of that is that you never learn anything with perfect equipment.

I used an AA/109 as my first lathe. I learned stuff with that which I would never have learned if I had had a nice new tight machine.

Of course, it depends a lot on the person. Someone who has no concept of which end of the screwdriver to grab is going to have trouble no matter what, so I suppose it is nice enough to have good stuff... less for the mechanically challenged to learn.

But I really do not agree with the entire "starter machine" idea. It's bad every way you look at it.

The thing to do is to buy a decent machine to begin with. For a lathe, that is something in the class of a 9" S-B or 10" Logan or Atlas. You may never need any more. If you hate the whole deal, you can sell it and come out OK. If you eventually want a 18"Monarch, OK, you will know why, and the little lathe may still be useful to you.

IT MAY BE CHINESE.... but NOT a "starter lathe".

But this deal of "start with a 9 x 20 (or minilathe) and move up as needed".... Why buy a POS for more money than a used machine, when if you stick with the hobby you will want better, and when you sell it you lose money?

Is it REALLY better for the "newbie" to try threading 8 TPI at 180 RPM than it is to have some extra slop in the crosslide? Better to have a teeter-totter half-finished crosslide than to have a few thou wear in the bed?

There is this thing of describing used equipment as "old and worn out".... And of course some is, but it generally has the regular features. But a lot isn't "worn out", it just has some wear, but is perfectly usable. And costs 1/3 or 1/4 as much as new chinese.

New chinese has its own problems, which is why there are so many sites with modifications for the 9 x 20, or the minilathe, etc..... stuff to do to make them as acceptable as the cheaper old used equipment. Not to mention fit and finish issues.

The problem is assessing the new guy on the basis of yourself.... Some "new guys" have been tool users for 30 years, and have no fear of diving in and fixing things. Others are in the "no concept of where to hold the screwdriver" category. Those two types have different wants and needs, so it is foolish, and no favor to them, to give a one-size-fits-all answer.

The truth is that there are customers for brand new shiny chinese, and customers for barn-fresh machines. Don't give both the same answer, find out which they are, and give THAT answer.

[pinstripe]

The other half of that is that you never learn anything with perfect equipment.

You may learn less, but you can still get stuff done. I like learning, but I like to get stuff done too. Both are good.

The truth is that there are customers for brand new shiny chinese, and customers for barn-fresh machines. Don't give both the same answer, find out which they are, and give THAT answer.

Bingo.

[danlb]

. I would always advise beginners to buy the best they can afford rather than something cheaper which might or might not do the job in their hands. You would not teach someone to drive a car in one with 4" of play at the steering wheel and only one gear left in the box--- or would you??? Regards David Powell.

Actually, it's foolish to teach someone to drive in a $50,000 car. My son learned in a big old junker that I bought for the occasion. If it crashed, it was no big deal. If it survived, it could be sold for the purchase price.

As most of you know, I advocate buying a small machine to learn on. They use the same physics as the big machines so everything you learn is valid when you move up... IF you move up. A small machine is easy to buy, easy to set up and does not cost $800 just to get it delivered. If you find that machining is not appealing, you've lost a few hundred bucks when you sell it. If you decide that you like machining, you will have some idea of what a machine should do when you shop for a bigger one.

I've found that keeping a small machine after I upgrade is a good idea. The smaller machines are sometimes easier to use and have a higher top speed. They work well as "second op" machines when the big ones are busy.

Dan
P.S. I've had great luck with the small Asian machines that I've bought. The trick may be that they need the same setting up as a big lathe after a big one has been moved.

[Black_Moons]

... You would not teach someone to drive a car in one with 4" of play at the steering wheel and only one gear left in the box--- or would you??? Regards David Powell.

Ahh, my first truck, I remember it well... Ok so it had a full gearbox but the 4" of steering play is about right.

Took it in for an alignment, get this call with a guy sounding like he was telling my first born had died..
"Its... going to need parts" "And how much do they cost?" "... $150" "... Ok so then do it" ".... Oh.. Ok then"

I kind of took it in for an alignment because I knew they would start mucking with the steering and have to fix that play. Duh.

[Carm]

I have no interest in arguments over "home shop machinist" vs. "professional machinist". I do have an interest in intelligent solutions to problems with tooling at hand.
There are far more HSM's that exhibit that because the tools are a means to an end that machining is only one of the factors involved. These people get more mileage out of basic gear because they will push boundaries. A professional who works in a fully equipped shop would likely never think of such possibilities. Why slot on a lathe when you have a keyseater?
Invention might be a mother, but mothers give birth.

To use David Powell's analogy, anyone who learns under such limitations and perseveres considers it gravy to use a fully functioning vehicle or tool, and has developed coping skills to boot.
Or, a man who has gone barefoot could walk a mile in your shoes, could you do the same?

[Arcane]

The real problem here is that a raw beginner cannot possibly know enough to get the best from old, tired or simply poor equipment. No amount of reading, listening to experienced people or internet browsing will replace experience. I would always advise beginners to buy the best they can afford rather than something cheaper which might or might not do the job in their hands. You would not teach someone to drive a car in one with 4" of play at the steering wheel and only one gear left in the box--- or would you??? Regards David Powell.

Speaking of 4" play in the steering wheel...way back when I was an apprentice we (the crew) bought an old 64 Pontiac to use as a crew car to get us back and forth from out of town where we would be working to the city where we all lived. It had quite a lot of miles on it and had over half a rotation of the steering wheel of play in it. We learned to drive it that way and got quite good at herding it down the road....you had to pay attention to your driving! I remember one fine winter morning I was driving and we were passing everybody for some reason...they were all poking along well under the speed limit. It wasn't until we stopped at out destination that we discovered there had been a freezing rain the night before and the road (and town streets) were covered with a nice layer of slick ice, so slick it was difficult to stand. The car was slipping and sliding around on the ice but the yaw was exactly the same as what it did on dry pavement. I was so used to gingerly correcting for the play that was normally in the steering that I did the same for the black ice without missing a beat.

[Mcgyver]

I have no interest in arguments over "home shop machinist" vs. "professional machinist".

a key difference is a HSM can be a hack, make a mess of everything and turn out garbage and so long as its safe and he's fun there is NOTHING wrong with that. It's pure self actualization. In a commercial setting he'd likely be fired (but lets remember 50% of the commercial machinists are ther are below average ).

That it can be though is not the same as it is. I push back as just nonsense this idea of "This is The Home Shop Machinist after all." sorry Qsimdo. The nature of the work determines the performance required, not whether someone is on the clock or that shop is on a residential property or industrial unit.

Its probably healthy to remember a precision machine tool is not an easy thing to come by. Traditionally to get one, say a lathe, it was about 1/2 - 1 x the cost of a average car. That's just what it cost to use high quality components, materials and techniques to get a well fit machine. imo if you haven't reconditioned one you probably don't appreciate just how complex and challenging it is to achieve good bearing surfaces are, how critical it is to performance and how poor the fit is on some of the new stuff. I know I didn't. If you can drag the tool back and forth over the cut and keeps cutting that's your first hint. Although there are few options nowadays, don't expect something at 1/10 to 1/4 the price new to give the same performance, or something that has 40 years of wear. Its too bad lathes like Myford, Emco and SouthBend are gone....then at least you'd have something to point to as representing the cost of quality. Still, there's no free lunch.

I guess my point is, there really isn't a dilemma. You should go in eyes wide open that of you want to pay 1/10 or less of what our forebears did, know that its a compromise (old and worn or poorly made) and the solution is learn reconditioning ....or look pay a heck of a lot more.

[martik]

One can start too small. My first was a Sb 9A. If I had started with a 7x10ish or taig, sherline sized lathe, I'd probably have given up the hobby. Dealing with those change gears, no backgear and a cramped work space can get very frustrating.

[Carm]

Mcgyver
I do not express myself well, and though English is my native tongue, I trip and stumble, to everyone's detriment.
There are many HSM's, on this board, yourself possibly included (your work is stellar), who exhibit creative thinking and execution that journeymen don't seem to have. Yes of course there are exceptions, and journeymen in any trade execute work daily that an amateur without his "10,000 hours " (a Malcolm Gladwell term) can only dream of.
Achievement of design would be an example... there are HSM's who achieve grinding tolerance without grinders, gear cutting without hobbers and so on, often done with equipment that the professional scoffs at.

[David Powell]

For me, it all began when-

Dad and I had owned and rallied a full size steam tractor for a few years, unfortunately it was ,even then a very expensive hobby. It was sold, we went to ONE steam show and realised that we wanted " back in the game". We very soon bought a 3/4in to the foot alcohol fired model traction engine. With a bit of a struggle we got it running but soon realised that we needed more tools even to maintain it, let alone improve it. On a visit to some friends we were GIVEN the lathe they had built in WW2. The bed was a piece of I beam, the headstock a block of Aluminium with a big brass bush as the bearing for the mandrel, the leadscrew was the screw from a jack, the saddle and toolholder were built up from bar and strip, the pulleys were bakelite, the tailstock was an ungodly weldment, presumably hurriedly made while some harassed foreman was not looking. the chuck was an ancient lever scroll job. Even the worst import surely must be a little better than this was, however, it was a beginning, it served valiantly, we used lots of emery cloth, and wore out our files on it, improving the results we got from the lathe but the little traction engine kept on running with the repairs and modifications we made. Eventually I came across a Drummond round bed lathe, bought that, belted it up and realised that at least some of our struggles had been caused by the machine and not our impatience or lack of knowledge and ability. The Drummond, in turn, was replaced by a new Myford ML7. I certainly have " Climbed the mountain" the hard way. In my opinion buying a known good machine can help put the new enthusiast at least part way up the slope and not in the ditch at the bottom which is where I started. Regards David Powell.

[Mcgyver]

Mcgyver
I do not express myself well, and though English is my native tongue, I trip and stumble, to everyone's detriment.
There are many HSM's, on this board, yourself possibly included (your work is stellar), who exhibit creative thinking and execution that journeymen don't seem to have. Yes of course there are exceptions, and journeymen in any trade execute work daily that an amateur without his "10,000 hours " (a Malcolm Gladwell term) can only dream of.
Achievement of design would be an example... there are HSM's who achieve grinding tolerance without grinders, gear cutting without hobbers and so on, often done with equipment that the professional scoffs at.

I liked your first post, in quoting I wasn't disagreeing, just took it as segue to what I said.

One of the things that always sort of bothered about the percieved 'free lunch" of low cost machining tools is, how many people do they chase away from the hobby? you know, its tough enough to get great results without the deck being stacked against your from the get go and people need some positive reinforcement along the way. I had just as much fun my first day when I brought home a worn standard modern lathe and a nice XLO mill as I do today with, well, everything and then some. I wonder though if those first simple parts had been a misery to make and turned out like crap if I would have stuck with it. (thanks for compliment btw - I too need the positive reinforcement )