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View Full Version : What do you use between your vise and mill table?



BCRider
08-17-2016, 10:37 PM
I was just putting the vise back on the mill after a good cleaning up and got to thinking about the options for what, if anything, to use between the vise and the table.

Some time back I'd read that a sheet of writing paper made for a good padding between the table and vise. I'd done that now and then on my old small mill drill and it seemed like a nice idea. So when I bolted the vise to my NEW mill for the first time I used a sheet of paper.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks later and a few odd jobs on the new mill and I needed to remove the vise for a job which required strap clamps instead of the vise. I was flabbergasted to see RUST on my new mill's table. Seems that the water based cutting fluid that I dribble on to keep the cutters running freely was soaking into the paper and the moisture was rusting the iron table. It wasn't much. Once I cleaned it away with some WD40 and steel wool it was more of a frosting then any sort of pitting. The original grinding marks still being visible. But that was the last time for any paper between the vise and table.

Some time later I read or got the idea myself, not sure which, that heavy oil would keep the water based fluid away from being trapped between the vise and table. And as long as the water could dry the fluid itself isn't at all corrosive. So that sounded like a win.

The other day I did a little job that again needed the vise being removed. I installed it again today but this time I used some Lucas "Red and Tacky" grease on the base of the vise and on the table lands where the vise was going to sit.

And I got to thinking about what, if anything, the rest of you use and why. I'm ready to switch to something else if it seems like it'll protect the table better than what I'm doing now. And it may help some others that are just getting a new mill or have had these same rusting issues.

10KPete
08-17-2016, 10:41 PM
Nothing. Never have, never will. Why???

Pete

BCRider
08-17-2016, 10:47 PM
Well, often my vise sits in place for weeks at a time if I don't have a reason to remove it. The table on the old machine wasn't sensitive to the cutting fluid I'm using where this one is. I'm guessing that some others out there will have tables that are sensitive to fluids that contain water as well.

I must admit that if my new mill reacted to the fluid I use with the same non-issue as my old mill/drill I would not be posting this topic.

thaiguzzi
08-17-2016, 11:12 PM
Just oil the base of the vise and table with std way oil prior to fitting.
Never had a problem.
Same here, vise can stay for weeks, nay, months at a time without moving. It's always not centre, more to one side, so i can generally fit rotabs etc without removal.
28" table, 1973 Tom Senior M1.

Arcane
08-17-2016, 11:13 PM
My mill has the provision for using a flood style coolant/cutting fluid but I don't use it because of (a) it's messy and (b) the cleanup required to prevent the rust problem it can sometimes cause...I don't use my mill all that often. I usually use WD40 to clean the table of hand applied cutting fluid (oil based) and then I spray it with a little bit of Rust Check and wipe it to distribute it evenly and remove any excess.

Paul Alciatore
08-17-2016, 11:14 PM
Personal opinion:

I do not like using a water based cutting fluid in my home shop. In a professional shop, where the equipment is in constant use and the vise is likely to be removed often, water based fluids may make sense. But when things will sit for relatively long periods between work sessions, water based cutting fluids are an invitation for rust.

Frankly, I don't see how you can get away with water based cutting fluids being used with a milling vise without taking the vise apart every few days to clean it completely. Wouldn't that fluid stay deep down in it and cause rust and other problems.

I use things like a light oil, Tap Magic, and WD-40 for cutting fluid on my mill. All oil and/or solvent based. I avoid using motor oil as it can stain things if used for a period of time.

As for something between the vise and the milling table, I also do not use anything other than a light coat of oil. I have left the vise mounted for weeks at a time and never had any problems with rust or anything else. Don't overthink the situation.

10KPete
08-17-2016, 11:39 PM
Well, others have said what I should have said instead of my cryptic post. I've never used water base at home and at work we were always having to take things apart and clean out the water to prevent rust. So I just don't invite rust into my shop! It's hard enough to keep it away as it is....

My brother has a lathe with a coolant pump system and he has fought that for years, trying to find something that won't cause rust, or go rotten with time, or not leave gooey messes on the machine.... Uugghhh!

Pete

darryl
08-18-2016, 12:12 AM
If there is need to put something between the vise and the table, consider plastic laminate. They make what's called backer lam, which doesn't have the melamine top layer. Snips will cut it easily- I did it with scisssors. It's not a particularly absorbent material, and it is quite rigid. Kraft paper I think it is, but you might want to look that up and check out the properties of it. It is not slippery, and in thin sections like this, about 30 thou, the compressibility effects would have little if any effect on your work.

pinstripe
08-18-2016, 01:35 AM
BCRider. Is your coolant semi-synthetic or just miscible oil? I don't have much experience with either, but some people claim that the synthetics strip paint and cause rust. Others say they don't have a problem with them. I bought some non-synthetic, but I must admit that I haven't filled the tank with it. I use the machines infrequently, and I don't want them to rust.

BCRider
08-18-2016, 02:00 AM
Pinstripe, it's this stuff; http://synlube-mi.com/products/pure-synthetics/universal

It works amazingly well both for limiting metal build up on the cutting edges as well as steaming off on hotter cuts to keep the cutter and work temperature under control. I dribble it on a few drops at a time with a squeeze bottle set up with a bit of spray can tubing heat formed and fitted to the nose of the bottles. I mix it at the relatively "rich" ratio of between 1:15 to 1:20 by eye. And since it does work well and the water aids in keeping the tool temperatures under control I'm a bit reluctant to switch away from it.

Compared to the old "water soluble oil" that mixes up white and tends to end up growing fungus in the tanks after a while this stuff is fantastic. If I was running a shop with machines that need to make money and so they need to run hard and heavy I think I'd strongly consider this stuff over the usual miscible cutting oils. And in the richer ratios it's even rated for tapping in steel. I haven't tried it but it works so nicely as a fluid for turning and milling that I don't doubt that at the suggested 10:1 or maybe 8:1 that it would work well for power tapping.

Until I got my new mill it wasn't an issue. Even the vise which I used on the old mill/drill does not have and never had an issue with it as long as I kept the sliding jaw surfaces well lubed with the way oil I use. And truth be told it only became an issue with the paper.

I wonder..... does cast iron change a little with age? My mill was fairly fresh out of Asia. But my old mill/drill came from Asia as well. Yet it never had an issue with this same water based fluid. Or is it possible that the old mill just sat with "proper" oil on it for longer and any porosity in the castings filled with good oil and my new mill has not been around long enough to do the same? Or is it more likely that the cast iron on the new mill is just cast differently or is a slightly different alloy?

Paul_A', you make a good point for considering a switch. But I've got enough left from the original gallon of Universal that I won't ever use it up within what time I have left :) And using way oil or this new slimy grease on the table and base of the vise is doing the job wonderfully. So I'll likely just keep on avoiding that darn paper "padding" and just oil or grease, whichever is the most handy.

boslab
08-18-2016, 05:38 AM
Is the paper for somthing?, if it's marks on the table use some plastic sheet perhaps?
Mark

Jim Williams
08-18-2016, 07:04 AM
I use a coat of cutting oil under my vise. I do not use water based coolant on my home shop mill or lathe. I keep an open container of cutting oil and a brush nearby. I constantly apply the cutting oil to the cutting tool as the work progresses. I got this technique from several R & D toolroom machinists that I worked with in the past. I do not think water based coolants are appropriate for occasional use machinery, due to the rust problem.

Jim

Carm
08-18-2016, 07:56 AM
I don't use anything.
Before the vise goes back on, everything gets cleaned, spotlessly. The vise base gets wiped with the palm of my clean hand before easing it on the deck. Your hand can feel the tiniest speck. I wouldn't want oil there.
Can't say I like the grease, either, but if the vise comes off regularly, whatever pulls your socks up.
Long term contact might give some surprises.

Doozer
08-18-2016, 08:04 AM
Most all paper contains acid left over from
it's manufacturing process. Never set any
precision machined object on a piece of paper
for any long length of time.

-D

J Tiers
08-18-2016, 08:07 AM
Nothing. Never have, never will. Why???

Pete

I fairly often use paper under work held down on the table.

The mill table was surface ground at some point before I got it, and is nearly glazed, quite shiny, and slippery. Without paper, work will slip around and be ruined.

The vise and other fixtures have keys, and are generally not a problem for slipping.

justanengineer
08-18-2016, 09:01 AM
After 64 years my Bridgeport's table has absorbed so much of the oil poured over it that its self-oiling, so nothing is necessary.

Ian B
08-18-2016, 09:07 AM
I seem to remember that John S uses an old biscuit tin. Nothing to do with taking up gaps or protecting from cutting fluid, but to catch the chips and keep them out of the tee slots. Seems like a good idea to me.

Ian

A.K. Boomer
08-18-2016, 09:07 AM
Never really heard of anybody just using plain old paper - If I had too I would use wax paper for the corrosion protection but what a hassle and also wondering if it was bunched up in an area and such really no reason,,,

but - I use water based coolant and have to use something as my vise and/or rotary table sit for months in the same position sometime after use and the table WILL rust if I do not use anything ---- so - LPS-3 is the way to go - spray it on - leaves a thick film, place vise on and move it all around in a figure 8 pattern and then anchor it down - alls iv ever gotten is staining but really no rust to speak of at all just discoloration...

Mcgyver
08-18-2016, 10:42 AM
I clean then put a bit of grease on a paper towel and give the surfaces a light smear. I use flood coolant. I would not use paper, great for increasing holding power on a setup but its moisture holding properties is something don't there for weeks or months (or years?) on end. Not sure what advantage paper would afford on a vise firmly clamped to table......stone out any dings or bruises if its supposed to address surface irregularities. Anyway, works for me and there is no rust when the vise gets lifted off

sarge41
08-18-2016, 10:43 AM
BC: I always stone the bottom of the vise before re-installing it. Get it very clean, then spray it and the table, liberally with WD-40. this allows it to "float" a bit to align it when indicating. This also resists any water that may try to cause any rust. the WD is water resistant and keeps my mill table looking new for months. Like Doozer said, the paper is acidic.

Sarge

BCRider
08-18-2016, 11:31 AM
Well, it IS to prevent any dings on parts or the vise from putting a mark into the table. But I tend to handle the vises very carefully. The two mill vises are always checked for dings.

I've had occasion to use the drill press vise on the mill from time to time for a variety of reasons. It sees a lot of chips as it's often used to hold a small part with hand pressure and doesn't get bolted down.

The stoning idea for the base of the vise is a great idea. Good one that! I know some stone the tables at well but I really don't like that idea as over time the most used area is going to develop a wear depression. But stoning the base of the vise to make it smooth can be done more evenly in an easier manner

I can say that a sheet of writing paper between the table and any pieces clamped directly works superbly well. And again it aids in avoiding ding marks in the table. But then such items are only there for the duration of the work and then are lifted away.

It's interesting to read that some of you are using paper and others are using various moisture repellents with their flood coolants.

As for the rest that use non water based lubes care to share the names? Something cost effective that can be purchased by the gallon without making me have to eat KD for a week?

Toolguy
08-18-2016, 01:48 PM
I've tried all the grease and oil stuff for years, never liked it. Finally I used car wax. Put it on the bed of the mill and all bare metal of the mill vise. After making sure there are no high spots, I just wipe it on, let it dry, rub down with a clean cloth. It gives good protection and is dry and not messy. Then I did all my cast iron surfaces. Drill press tables, band saw table, other mill table, disc and belt sander tables, etc. This has worked out very well. I redo them 3 or 4 times a year.

KiddZimaHater
08-18-2016, 02:13 PM
Nothing.
You shouldn't put anything between your vise and mill table, if you want accuracy.
Also, anything PAPER is a bad idea. Paper gets wet, and holds moisture.

Spandau
08-18-2016, 02:33 PM
I don't remove my mill vise very often, and it sits off center so I can bolt the occasional rotab or work piece directly to the table. When I do remove my vise, when putting it back on I stone it and then polish it lightly with Flitz. I use this product on a lot of things, and I've never had rust issues on vises, tables, chucks, tools, etc. It is a metal polish, but doesn't embed, and is less abrasive than common toothpaste. Works well on firearms too, won't touch blueing or strawing unless you get too heavy handed or use power tools.

LKeithR
08-18-2016, 02:42 PM
I would never put anything between the vise and table; it will hold any moisture that is present and it would tend to reduce accuracy (although I don't think that's a big deal). I don't use flood coolant because of the mess but I do have a mister that I use when making deeper cuts. In some situations, in addition to lubricating the tool, you need to be able to evacuate the chips from the cut and oil, however applied, just doesn't cut it. The mister works great because you get lubrication from a minimum amount of coolant while the air blast keeps chips at bay. If you're getting rust from water-based coolant you're probably not mixing it strong enough--increase the ratio a bit and your rust problem will largely go away.

My vise sits about 1/3 of the way in from the LH side of the table (9x49) and sometimes doesn't move for weeks--although sometimes it's on and off two or three times in a single day. I use a good quality way oil and apply it liberally to the table from time to time and always under the vise whenever I move it. The vise slides so much better when there's a layer of oil between it and the table--I can't imagine not using it. In any case t's just good practice to keep all your machines well oiled and greased. If I do get a bit of rust on the table a quick brush down with steel wool removes it--any effect is purely cosmetic...

Puckdropper
08-18-2016, 02:50 PM
I've tried all the grease and oil stuff for years, never liked it. Finally I used car wax. Put it on the bed of the mill and all bare metal of the mill vise. After making sure there are no high spots, I just wipe it on, let it dry, rub down with a clean cloth. It gives good protection and is dry and not messy. Then I did all my cast iron surfaces. Drill press tables, band saw table, other mill table, disc and belt sander tables, etc. This has worked out very well. I redo them 3 or 4 times a year.

If you're using those tools for woodworking, make sure it doesn't contain silicone. They add it to car waxes to make things shiny. I use Johnson's Paste Wax instead.

Toolguy
08-18-2016, 03:19 PM
Thanks for the tip Puckdropper! I'm only doing metalworking, but still good to know.

BCRider
08-18-2016, 04:16 PM
I don't know about a lot of the car waxes but I know that regular furniture paste waxes dissolve fairly easily in many petroleum oils and if any solvent such as WD40 or mineral spirits gets onto it.

metalmagpie
08-18-2016, 04:31 PM
If I were going to use something between a mill vise and mill table, I think I'd try anti-sieze. The stuff is tenacious and I've never seen something coated in anti-sieze rust. Of course, it is messy as hell. When I had my last mill (a BP) I didn't use anything at all.

On lathe faceplate setups I often use kraft paper to reduce slippage. But the setup never stays together very long. It sure hasn't rusted anything.

metalmagpie

old mart
08-18-2016, 04:31 PM
I don't use anything, but if I used soluble oil on the mill, I would put a film of ordinary oil between the faces to keep the suds from staining the mill bed.
Mind you, our mill at the museum was left out in a garden for at least 3 years under a tarpaulin and the weather took its toll. I scraped the rust off with a carbide insert on a handle, the whole top is stained but I doubt if there is more than 0.0002" missing from the deepest marks.

lugnut
08-19-2016, 02:53 AM
I would think that placing anything between the vice and the table would hold moister and cause rust.

projectnut
08-19-2016, 07:54 AM
I'm in the camp of putting nothing but a film of oil between the vise or any other tooling and the table. Many years ago I purchased a surface grinder. Since I wasn't familiar with all the operations I wanted to perform it was suggested I purchase a book on the subject. One of the "tips" was to put a piece of paper between the chuck and the vise to avoid scratching the table. I did it a few times and it seemed to work well so I just put a piece in place after cleaning it. I came back a week later to use the machine and found a ring of rust between the chuck and the vise. The chuck had been cleaned and dried, and I've never used water based coolant. That's when I realized just the moisture in the air along with the acid in the paper had been enough to cause it to rust. Now I just make sure the chuck and mill table are clean of all swarf or grinding dust, and leave a light coating of oil on each as a barrier for the moisture in the air.

boslab
08-19-2016, 08:15 AM
I'm not a shim advocate, I have found a brass shim under a vise once, however if paper is what you want my daughter paints, I noticed " acid free paper" on an artist's pad yesterday, not certain how relevant that is
Mark

Carm
08-19-2016, 08:43 AM
"I noticed " acid free paper" on an artist's pad yesterday..."

Also called archival paper.

old mart
08-19-2016, 09:35 AM
If you favour a sheet of paper, you could spray it with something oily first before clamping.

J Tiers
08-19-2016, 10:29 AM
People who have never put paper under anything on the mill, still have rust under the vise. There seems to be a massive freakout about paper here, it's not like the stuff is soaked in muriatic.... it has a slightly acidic PH if it is "sulfite" paper, that's all.

The cheaper the paper, the more acid content it has, because it is not washed as much. Newsprint paper being the worst. Regular copy paper is not at all bad. Take a piece of each, newsprint paper, and copy paper, hang them up somewhere, and see what happens. The newsprint will darken far faster than the copy paper, because it was not as carefully washed of acid.

The total amount of acid content is quite low. The rust is almost surely the effect of water, even if you never use coolant. Paper pulls water out of the air. The idea of some oil on it is good. Some oil does not seem to particularly affect the paper's ability to prevent slipping.

Carm
08-19-2016, 11:20 AM
Mr.Tiers
I don't see any problem w/ some of the items used in this thread.
Although the affect on accuracy may be moot, I wouldn't assume there is none, but that's an easy verification.
Long term contact is another story. I've taken apart many a surface that was, before assembly, thoroughly covered in grease or oil and seen corrosion, though mainly steel.
I know some people will do anything to avoid removing the vise. Worse than math, even.

BCRider
08-19-2016, 11:25 AM
I'm a trifle surprised that I'm pretty much the only person that has heard of this idea. It's not one I came up with on my own. I got the idea from at least one book on machining that I got from the public library when I went machining crazy about 27 years back when I got my own lathe and mill and read everything I could lay my hands on.

Of course the interwebz at that time wasn't what it is now and forums of this sort were in their early "newsgroup" modes. So the books from the library were the main source of knowledge on stuff like this. And at least one book listed positive reasons for using a sheet of paper.

But that author likely wasn't using flood coolant or dribbling water based fluid on his work with that paper in place. And neither am I any longer.

Where I WILL continue to use paper is for larger work pieces that get clamped directly to the table. Using paper in those cases aids in avoiding any lumps or burrs on that work piece from bruising the table. And in that case the paper isn't in place long enough to cause any problems even with the water based fluid.

BCRider
08-19-2016, 11:27 AM
..... I know some people will do anything to avoid removing the vise. Worse than math, even.

It's like they have an unreasoning fear of needing to tram the vise each time. Yet with even a little practice it's a one minute job at most.

JoeLee
08-19-2016, 11:33 AM
I've never put any thing between the vise base and the table for that very reason that you mentioned with the moisture and rust issue.
I just wipe the base and table with way oil and have never had a problem. However I don't use coolant either. Occasionally a squirt of WD 40 for cutting or drilling.

If your cutting fluid caused the surface rust between the vise and table I have to wonder where else it has seeped into and cause the same problem.

JL...............

BCRider
08-19-2016, 11:45 AM
......If your cutting fluid caused the surface rust between the vise and table I have to wonder where else it has seeped into and cause the same problem.

JL...............

I hear you. But the slideways that might see a dribble of it flow down the sides of the table now and then are always kept well oiled with way lube. And the fluid is friendly enough to the metal that as long as the water can dry away within any sort of reasonable time it does not cause a problem. It was only being trapped by the paper that caused the problem on my new mill.

JCHannum
08-19-2016, 11:46 AM
Many, I would guess the majority, of waterbased coolants include a rust inhibitor. If your concern is rust, I suggest that you look at the source and make your corrections there. As mentioned, the location of the coolant is not restricted to the base of the vise and table, but it is possible that it is causing corrosion in locations that have not been detected.

Instead of resorting to paper and other means to control rust, you would be better off removing the cause. I use Rustlick for just that reason.

BCRider
08-19-2016, 12:41 PM
The stuff I'm using also has a rust inhibitor. But like the others using the other soluble oils have posted the rust inhibiting abilities only go so far if the fluids are trapped in a way where the water component can't evaporate over a reasonable time.

I'm not running a flood of the stuff either. Just manually dribble on a small amount from a squeeze bottle. And being half Scottish you can rest assured that it's a frugal amount.

JCHannum
08-19-2016, 12:59 PM
I use Rustlick and have also used a Mobil product. I use about a two or three part water to coolant dilution. I usually use a pump spray to apply. I rarely remove my vise, but when I do, the worst case is a dark discoloration under the vise that wipes off with a green Scotchbrite, I have never had rust in about twenty years of this use.

BCRider
08-19-2016, 01:03 PM
Because of the liquid oil in the fluid the dark stuff we see IS rust. It's just mixed in with the oil in the fluid so it doesn't stick to the table or vise very well and appears as a really dark brown.

DATo
08-19-2016, 07:28 PM
"I was just putting the vise back on the mill after a good cleaning up and got to thinking about the options for what, if anything, to use between the vise and the table."


You are joking .... right?

BCRider
08-19-2016, 09:00 PM
"I was just putting the vise back on the mill after a good cleaning up and got to thinking about the options for what, if anything, to use between the vise and the table."


You are joking .... right?

About the annual cleaning regardless of if it needs it or not? Or the idea of using something? That was from 46 posts ago. Do try to keep up! :D

DATo
08-20-2016, 03:11 AM
About the annual cleaning regardless of if it needs it or not? Or the idea of using something? That was from 46 posts ago. Do try to keep up! :D

You actually counted the posts? You're joking too ... right?

OK ... let's begin. First of all I don't know what in the wide, wide world of sports is meant by an "annual cleaning". I've been a machinist for over a half a century and to the best of my knowledge I don't remember any cleanings at any shop I've ever heard of on an annual basis. You just clean up when it is needed. Mom used to do annual cleaning though, sometimes in spring and sometimes at Christmas, bless her heart. (For clarification, because I just KNOW you are going to ask ... no, mom did not work in the shop ... I was talking about her annual, extra-spiffy house cleaning.)

Secondly, why would anyone put anything, like paper, for instance, under a mill vise? Sort of like parking your car tires over pads of carpeting overnight. What would possibly possess anyone to put an interface between the bottom of their vise and the mill table?

The OP is obviously suffering from NMS (New Machine Syndrome) in which the sufferer takes extraordinary precautions to maintain the "new" of his machine. We've all gone through this with one thing or another, don't say you haven't. Like parking your new car at the far end of the parking lot to avoid anyone parking around you and possibly dinging your vehicle when they open their doors. That is a classic case of NMS. The symptoms usually wear off after a couple of weeks.

Mill tables will get dings despite our best precautions. That's what they make honing stones for.

/

dave_r
08-20-2016, 03:37 AM
You actually counted the posts? You're joking too ... right?

I will take "What is subtraction" for $100, Alex.

J Tiers
08-20-2016, 09:54 AM
Well, add me to the ones wondering "what the heck for?", I don't see the need for it. Maybe it IS that "NMS"?

A piece of paper might get you a couple thou out of tram, and with the keys under the vise, it isn't going anywhere. I put paper under a part if I need to, to keep it from moving around, sure, but that's not a "want to", that's a "need to".

BTW:.....Up in the right hand corner of the posts it shows the post number in the thread, so no need to count.......

BCRider
08-20-2016, 12:54 PM
Way back in the beginning of this I mentioned that the idea of the paper was from one of the machining books I was reading. The author had some reasonable reasons for using it. So I tried it for a while. Didn't always do it but the original idea seemed sound. Clearly few of you here seem to agree with that author. That became pretty clear from the first dozen or so replies. Since then this has been more about a coffee club meeting and a few other sideline topics.

Don't even ask me which book it was. The local big library back when I was setting up my shop had a good dozen or so books that were worth reading. It could have been any one of them. And we're talking back around 20 to 25 years ago.

DATo, consider the options when you post something as brief as "You are joking .... right?" on a forum of this sort. Especially when attached to the bit you quoted from the very first post. It opens up all manner of suggestions for satire and a bit of fun. So I felt I was replying in kind. Apparently you weren't kidding around. Sorry.

And yes, I still park my 4 year old "new" car well away from the area by the front doors at the shopping malls. And don't tell me that you don't. I'm sure you've seen what those "shopping mom's" can do ! ! ! ! :D Hell, I won't even park my scuffed up 11 year old Ranger in the most crowded part of a mall lot. I still want to get a few more years of use out of it.

And yes, when I pulled the vise off and found the bit of etching in the new table I was a bit PO'd. I know it's a tool and I know it'll become marked up over time. But I'd like it to be from good honest use and not something that turned out to be a bad idea. So maybe there was a touch of NMS at work. I'm OK with admitting that.

JTiers, my vise came with the keys but the keys were a poor fit in the slots. And when tested the jaws didn't tram well enough when the keys were pulled against the slot edge anyway. So they came off and are hidden away somewhere that I've since forgotten about. If I have to tram the jaw anyway I'd rather be free to position the vise where I want instead of where the keys tell me. I suppose that I could take a light skim cut along the slot that is the one to use with the keys..... I may just do that the next time I have the vise off the table.

A.K. Boomer
08-20-2016, 01:24 PM
While I do not know what the reason for using paper would be, (electrolysis?) or so paranoid of vise to table contact that it's become an obsession??? I do believe in putting a corrosion prohibitor between vise and table - like I stated earlier if I did not I would have massive amounts of rust so please lets get off the kick of thinking everyone does not need anything at all - if you think this you simply do not have an understanding of the variances of how others machine parts and how long they leave their attachments on the table - so -

that being said - if someone is bolting down their stuff like I do sometimes and leaving a rotary table on one end whilst the vise is on the other and using water based mist coolant and have actually used WAX paper and had great results after many months of stagnation then please chime in - kinda makes sense and would like to know if I can use it in a pinch if I run out of my LPS-3

BCRider
08-20-2016, 01:41 PM
Boomer, I suspect you'd be fine with any sort of heavy way style oil or grease. In fact if you want to buy something else to try instead of the LPS3 a couple of things come to mind.

First is motorcycle "chain wax". It's supposed to be a chain lube that dries to a mostly dry film that resists water and isn't supposed to let surface dirt migrate into the works. It sort of works OK on motorcycles. Because it dries to a sticky wax formulation it does a good job of rejecting anything with water in it. The downside would be that it DOES dry to a sticky wax like consistency that is not unlike the wax on toilet seal rings. That may produce a situation where the tooling is quite firmly glued to the table and needs to be tipped up to break the seal instead of easily sliding sideways.

Another would be a wheel bearing grease intended for boat trailers. Because they are frequently doused in water which is bound to leak into the bearing covers this stuff is supposed to be highly water resistant. And the detergent matrix that holds the lube in this particular grease is supposed to be highly water resistant for obvious reasons. Seems like a light smear of that between the table and tooling might work out well also. And unlike the chain wax it won't glue the gear to the table.


LIke I say, it's been a while. But the idea of using the sheet of paper was to let the dings and bruising on well used machines be cushioned and hidden by the paper. Same with any burrs or dings on the base of the vise. The paper is soft enough to let such things bed into the thickness. At least that was the reasoning as I recall. It was also to aid in making MORE dings and bruises if the vise was not handled smoothly during placement.

A.K. Boomer
08-20-2016, 01:53 PM
Hah good one with the boat trailer wheel bearing grease - actually gave that some thought but such a good lubricant wanted to stay clear of it due to sliding of the piece even after bolt down - and esp. right after using after bolt down.

The LPS-3 can get that way too if you allow it to "harden" up before bolting down but I just spray it and then immediately mount up the vise or RT table - im happy with it like I say one can has lasted many years so far and all iv had is staining...

I am an advocate of light stoning the vise bottom and rt - have really not done it to my table as much but a few light drags over the years just to make sure nothing "catches" and shows a high spot.

BCRider
08-20-2016, 02:18 PM
I am an advocate of light stoning the vise bottom and rt - have really not done it to my table as much but a few light drags over the years just to make sure nothing "catches" and shows a high spot.

That sure sounds like a good approach to the concept of stoning the tables and tooling. As much as I'm getting the online "evil eye" over this paper idea I'm the same way on the idea of regular stonings of a machine table.

From the sounds of how your LPS3 is working I suspect you'd find that the Chain Wax is the same. Goes on wet then as the carrier and solvent dry away it turns to a sticky wax like goo. If the stuff were applied and then the vise set into place at the proper moment it would slide about like it was on light oil and be forced out easily enough. I don't know what LPS 3 sells for but up here a big 12oz can of chain wax is around $15. In the US it would likely be more around the $10 mark.

A.K. Boomer
08-20-2016, 02:41 PM
That sure sounds like a good approach to the concept of stoning the tables and tooling. As much as I'm getting the online "evil eye" over this paper idea I'm the same way on the idea of regular stonings of a machine table.



Generally nothing "should" get dinged - but lets face it parallels get dropped once in awhile *(esp. when drinking heavy) and stuff just generally happens ---

I think one of the most common errors that I really try to void is clamping small bits of chips between your table and attachment, that will give you hi spots on both - I was taught not to just use a clean rag - may be good for starters but you really can't beat clean skin, do a final with just your hand - this way you also don't drag stuff out of the cut-outs in vises and such - you may think you have something clean with a rag till you go over it with clean skin - we can not only detect incredibly small crumbs with our sense of feel we can remove them by going over and then wiping your hand on a very clean towel and repeat...
final deterrent is also why I use a rust inhibitor - light spray on just the table top and then sliding the attachment back and forth or circular motions flushes even smaller particulates out of the way - then your free to anchor and dial in for final adjustment.

BCRider
08-20-2016, 03:16 PM
Now that you mention it I do believe that using a sheet of paper was also to allow for the risk of a chip ending up between table and tooling. The idea being that the paper would allow it to crush between the surfaces but without the pressure for a final push into either surface.

As home shop or solitary professionals we tend to take better care. So a wipe down with a rag followed by a bare palm seems like a natural thing to do. But perhaps the sheet of paper has a place in a shop where the owners of the equipment are not the ones using that equipment.

Like I posted earlier for all the derision this idea is receiving here the advantages of it did make sense at the time when I read about it.

And I'm sure that MANY of us can attest to the idea that our skin is far more sensitive to small bits of things. How often have we been sure that we just got stabbed by a 3" common nail only to discover that it's so small that we need a magnifying glass to see it well enough for the tweezers to get a hold of it? I know I sure have! ! ! !

darryl
08-20-2016, 03:35 PM
Way back when, some machinist got tired of having to reset the vise when it had been removed. So he put a paper between the vise and the table- with a message on it 'If you removed this vise, you better put it back the way it was'. It became a joke for the better part of 75 years, until we actually forgot what the original intent of the paper was. The tradition lingers on, even in one man shops.

What a load of crap :)

Carm
08-20-2016, 04:17 PM
I'm assuming these threads get referenced by a lot of people- in perpetuity, or 'til the web site goes down.
So here's a remark.
Stoning a surface can be a good thing. Stoning a surface regularly, not so much.

There's an old story about a stream in Ireland, big boulder in the middle. They say when the fish swimming to spawn upstream have worn it down, Ireland gets its freedom.

Stones are more abrasive than fish bellies.
But not Irishmen.
Slainte!

dian
08-21-2016, 05:42 AM
if you want prevent water getting between table and vice, use silicone grease.

Doozer
08-21-2016, 08:12 AM
One horror story I have about paper and precision items,
a while ago when I bought a Suburban spin jig (the $900
ones), I had it out of the wood box and had set it on a
piece of paper, on top of a metal file cabinet that I had
been using to lay out some other tooling. I think I left
it there for a week or so until I got back to using it.
Well to my horror, when I next picked it up, the paper
was stuck to it. When I peeled off the paper, it had
orange rust splotches on the paper and the bottom of
my new Suburban $900 spin jig was rusted!!!! :(
Thank God I had some of that EvapoRust product
(a wonder iron chelator) to remove the rust.
I asked my friend who has a chemistry degree about
the paper rusting bare steel. He is the one who
told me about how they use acid in the pulp making
process, and why putting any precision metal thing
on paper for any length of time was a no-no.

-Doozer

J Tiers
08-21-2016, 09:51 AM
There is paper and there is paper..... not all paper is acid-laden rust promoter.

In fact, I doubt the whole thing.

Paper tends to absorb water, from the air, and that will likely be as much of an issue as any acid residue, and likely more.

I have sftuff wrapped in paper, sometimes newsprint paper, and do not see this rust issue. I have stuff in cardboard boxes, and do not see this rust issue. But I have a dehumidifier.

Thinking again about the rust on the spin jig, I'd guess that the fact the paper was stuck to the metal was just about proof that the paper had been somewhat damp. And, ORANGE rust is typical of water-induced rust, not so much other types. Then also, rust splotches, suggests areas of dampness, because the paper is pretty much even in its residual acid content, so one would expect the paper to discolor the metal more-or-less evenly.

Finally, the total acid content in the paper is pretty low, paper makers really don't want to send their process material out with the product. And a lot of paper now is actually almost acid-free due simply to the processing methods, and some of the materials used in modern paper. The amount of acid remaining in, or natural to non-neutralized paper, is probably enough to discolor the metal eventually, but not to form patchy scaly rust.

BCRider
08-21-2016, 01:52 PM
Doozer, If the base rusted like that I suspect that the combination of the paper, indexer and metal cabinet formed a setup that produced some humidity that was held by the paper. For just sitting on a sheet of paper on a wood bench the packing oil on the indexer SHOULD have been fine for protecting your new indexer. So something else was added to the mixture of those factors to the promote gathering moisture from the air.

Magicniner
08-21-2016, 04:26 PM
Paper absorbs atmospheric water ;-)

BCRider
08-21-2016, 07:46 PM
Paper absorbs atmospheric water ;-)

You make it sound like it's a dessicant that actively pulls moisture out of the air around it. That's not the case.

If the conditions are right it will HOLD the moisture that is given to it by air with a higher humidity. Or if in contact with a cool surface the higher relative humidity of the air cooled by being in near contact with the surface will induce a higher moisture content in the paper. But paper does not grab and hold moisture on its own. Once it is removed from the conditions that generate a higher humidity content in the air in contact with the paper it is quite happy to give back the moisture until it is back in balance with the temperature and humidity of the air around it.

J Tiers
08-21-2016, 11:11 PM
The spin indexer, being metal, would tend to condense water out of the air in certain conditions. That water could easily run down and soak into the paper, which would wick it under the indexer base. Once that happens, it takes quite a while for the water to evaporate from the exposed paper, and then the rest of it to wick out and also evaporate. All the time it is under there it is promoting rust.

You can likely discount the acid traces in the paper by comparison to the action of condensed water, if it was present, as seems likely.

ulav8r
08-21-2016, 11:19 PM
I worked in a Kraft paper mill years ago. The Kraft process uses no acid, it uses a caustic solution to break down wood chips into pulp. We made various weights of "liner board". Its sole use was for the "inside" layer of corrugated cardboard. No acid was used anywhere in the process. Bleached papers would be a different process.

The Artful Bodger
08-21-2016, 11:48 PM
Oil the paper.

BCRider
08-22-2016, 12:58 AM
The spin indexer, being metal, would tend to condense water out of the air in certain conditions. That water could easily run down and soak into the paper, which would wick it under the indexer base. Once that happens, it takes quite a while for the water to evaporate from the exposed paper, and then the rest of it to wick out and also evaporate. All the time it is under there it is promoting rust.

You can likely discount the acid traces in the paper by comparison to the action of condensed water, if it was present, as seems likely.

It could be even simpler. And once the indexer is at room temperature likely not the indexer at all.

If the cabinet was up against an outer wall that is poorly insulated the coolness of that wall would reflect up through the cabinet. This will cause the air in a layer around the cabinet to become cooler than the air out in the general room. The relative humidity of that layer in contact with the cabinet will thus be more humid. that humidity can result in the paper becoming more moist. We don't need to have actual condesation for this effect. Just that the relative humidity in the cool air is higher than normal and higher than optimum for the steel of the indexer.

On some firearms forums it's amazing how many folks get corrosion occurring in their gun cabinets or safes because family "rules" insist on them putting the safes in the basement. If they put those up against outside walls that contain some or all of the foundation behind them the safes become some amount cooler than the rest of the air in the basement. And that rise in the relative humidity is enough to cause rust on the steel even though there's no actual liquid condensation occurring.

The cure in that case is a small heat source in the safe to raise the temperature and lower the relative humidity. Or to use dessicants or dehumidifiers to lower the RH in the safes so despite the cooler air that it is a dry enough air that it cannot produce corrosion.

I have not had the misfortune to have an expensive item of that sort get rusty but I've had a few cases of setting things on the painted floor only to find some corrosion on the side against the floor some time later. Mostly it's been scraps of steel that aren't important. Occasionally before I figured out what the issue was it was something I did care about. I don't leave stuff on the floor or against the outer walls now that are steel and that are something I might be concerned about.

Rich Carlstedt
08-22-2016, 01:07 AM
If you don't think paper absorbs moisture by itself, please explain how books stored in basements ( constant temperature ) can get moldy or smell bad. Seen enough of that in my life time.
Also have talked to museum curators who told me many times that paper can be caustic or acidic to metals .
Museums are very careful to only use acid free paper and even then its carefully considered.
Oiling the paper is one possibility...except some oils (AKA Detergent oils) have chemicals that may not be nice.
A good example is cutting oil that usually has a high sulfur content and if you have ever seen Lathe Ways or machine components with stains, 99 % sure it's from sulfur bearing oils.

I use pure way oil under my vice and have never had an issue.
Using water based coolants demands cleaning measures , including periodic removal of vises

Rich

BCRider
08-22-2016, 01:43 AM
If you don't think paper absorbs moisture by itself, please explain how books stored in basements ( constant temperature ) can get moldy or smell bad. Seen enough of that in my life time.

Because the basement in most areas of North America where we get a rise in summer humidity are soaking wet in the basement. The air in the basements cools down and the relative humidity climbs to above 70%. Under such conditions mold grows easily in furniture as well as paper. The temperature may be fairly constant but the humidity sure isn't. Places like New Mexico are so dry that this sort of thing isn't an issue. But for a lot of the rest of our two countries high humidity in the summers is a fact of life. And high outdoor humidity means EXTRA high humidity in the coolness of the basement. And that means mildew or mold in basement carpets, furniture and any books kept down there.

There's simply nothing special about the paper compared to a lot of other materials. It doesn't suck the moisture out of the air any more than other items do. But it WILL respond to the air being more humid than normal. Just as a lot of other natural materials do.

Don't trust me though. Get a humidity meter and after you get a reading of the outside air, and inside upper floors stick it in the basement and see what the RH reading climbs to.

I also didn't say that paper does not take on moisture. It does. It just does not suck it out of the air actively such as something like dried silica gel does. Instead it responds to the relative humidity of the air around it by equalizing in some ratio. Humid air, soggy paper. Dry air, crispy paper.

My own books have been frequently stored in basements over the years. But I've understood this moisture balance thing and how cool air is the devil in this case. So I've tried to take care to keep them away from any bare foundation walls or up against poorly insulated outside walls. I've only had trouble with musty books or other papers when I mess up and forget about this and put them in a place for some months where I should have known better. Like in a cardboard box or even a plastic tote on a bare or painted concrete floor where the coolness coming up through the floor produced a rise in the RH in the container. If I put a layer of plywood or other insulation down first I've never had an issue of this sort.

Outside of this I was nodding agreement with the rest of the post.

Magicniner
08-22-2016, 04:23 AM
Polyethylene Terephthalate doesn't absorb atmospheric water.
That should keep the nitpickers busy for a day or two ;-)

I didn't say paper was actively hydrophillic or deliquescent, just that it absorbs atmospheric water, and it does.
Ever had photocopies or laser prints come out with the paper wavy or with crinkled? The most common cause for that is water, installing a 10w bulb under the paper storage shelf in a steel cabinet is a classic way to gently warm the paper, driving off the water it had absorbed and improving print and copy output.

- Nick

J Tiers
08-22-2016, 08:25 AM
Books have a lot of exposed area. Not true of a piece of paper under the vise, which has only whatever is around the edges.

Even your books mold first on the outer parts. Takes a while to get to the middle.

Of course paper absorbs atmospheric moiture. Said that long ago.

It absorbs iiquid water much faster, and that gets under things quickly, far faster than vapor absorption. It would happen even without paper.

Magicniner
08-22-2016, 11:42 AM
Simple solution;
Use Vapour Phase Inhibitor paper!
:D

bborr01
08-22-2016, 12:05 PM
There is no way I would put paper under a vise and tighten it down. The vise is likely to distort to some degree when the paper compresses more under the clamping bolts than it does under the rest of the vise. I haven't read the whole thread but I can't understand why anyone would want to put anything under the vise.

Brian

strokersix
08-22-2016, 01:04 PM
Why would someone do this? In a misguided attempt to protect the table.

Nobody has suggested in this thread but don't use aluminum! I witnessed the damage caused by an aluminum tooling plate left on a CNC mill table without removal for years. Pitting corrosion on the mill table.

J Tiers
08-22-2016, 01:59 PM
Agree on distortion and resulting loss of position. Paper is not very thick, though, so it is somewhat limited as an issue.


Why would someone do this? In a misguided attempt to protect the table.

Nobody has suggested in this thread but don't use aluminum! I witnessed the damage caused by an aluminum tooling plate left on a CNC mill table without removal for years. Pitting corrosion on the mill table.

Curious..... the reverse of expected.

Aluminum is used in place of magnesium as a sacrificial anode, and definitely would not be expected to increase corrosion of iron or steel.

Must be another factor there.

BCRider
08-22-2016, 02:27 PM
A CNC mill likely uses flood cooling/lubing. So I'm going to guess at the damage being simply from the water in the fluid. Seems like most water mixed cutting fluids promise SOME corrosion resistance but it seems like it's not good enough if the exposure is long termed enough.

George Bulliss
08-22-2016, 02:42 PM
I put my thumb between once, but I wouldn't recommend it and it didn't help prevent corrosion.

I think the only way to prevent corrosion is to remove the vise now and then. It's not that hard to re-tram and it gets much quicker with practice. Plus, it doesn't hurt to mount the vise in varying locations to spread the wear around the mill. Not a big concern in a home shop but a good practice nonetheless.

pinstripe
08-22-2016, 03:03 PM
Why would someone do this? In a misguided attempt to protect the table.

Yes. He read it in a book many years ago. Goes to show that it's not just the Internet that is full of dubious advice :)

Having said that. If the book was very old, then maybe it was before water based coolants were popular? The author of the book may have also moved the vice regularly.

BCRider
08-22-2016, 04:03 PM
I put my thumb between once, but I wouldn't recommend it and it didn't help prevent corrosion.

What did you get for a sine angle from the tilt? :D

J Tiers
08-22-2016, 06:55 PM
....

Having said that. If the book was very old, then maybe it was before water based coolants were popular? ....

They were popular long ago. Lots of old coolant formulas with water plus lye, and maybe some soaps and/or oils. The lye would keep it alkaline enough not to promote rust much.

BCRider
08-22-2016, 07:06 PM
I'm pretty sure that the "soluble" oils that create the white milky cutting fluid have been around since back before the war. Videos of war time production appear to be using a white lube/coolant which is almost certainly the same stuff. And I recall my father using it in his shops back in the mid to late 50's.