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GEP
08-28-2016, 10:38 PM
I was looking on e-bay for a 14.5 mm drill bit. Fund a Guhring 14.5 mm made in China. Arnt Guhring tools made in Germany ? I have some Guhring taps made in Germany. Whats up with that anyone know are the Germans going China now ?

J Tiers
08-28-2016, 10:58 PM
German companies have been dealing happily with china for decades.

Guhring being a pretty good brand, in general, I admit to being surprised. Either they are controling quality to German standards, OR it is just MARKED Guhring..... I suspect it is a legitimate item, though. Usually any company with a presence in the US, and registered brands, can get fake imports stopped at the border.

boslab
08-29-2016, 12:20 AM
I think one of the problems with companies outsourcing to China is that when they do place an order for a million units, the companies making them in China make 10 million, the fakes are perfect so undetectable from the real thing, an example is shampoo, apparently the shampoo company bought packaging and printing of bottles in China, they were very happy with the price and quality and proceeded to fill them and sell them to major chains in Europe, these products sell at 4-8. Within a month the same bottles of shampoo were turning up in 1 stores or dollar stores, the contents were similar, but not quite the same but you'd be pushed to know without a lab to analyse them.
I'd bet that empty bottles as supplied to the big manufacturer were now being supplied to whoever wanted them, same bottle, indistinguishable from the ones made by the branded company because they are the same.
My bet it's the same as end mills or anything else, once a company buys from China they make a hell of a lot more than you ask.
Mark

pinstripe
08-29-2016, 10:24 AM
I'm surprised that they manufacture stuff in China as well. Turns out they have factories all over the place, including China and Australia! Must be a mistake. We stopped making stuff here years ago.

Full listing in this document http://www.guhring.com/Documents/Welcome/Locations.pdf

Mcgyver
08-29-2016, 12:10 PM
German companies have been dealing happily with china for decades.

Guhring being a pretty good brand, in general, I admit to being surprised. Either they are controling quality to German standards, OR it is just MARKED Guhring.....

or its a Guhring owned and managed plant. While that still creates business challenges, its a world of difference to simply outsourcing there.

old mart
08-29-2016, 12:53 PM
Their drills are second to none.
I have genuine Kennametal carbide tips made in the USA, Germany the UK and China, and the Chinese ones are just as good as the others.

enginuity
08-31-2016, 09:42 AM
I'm pretty familiar with the other large German drill manufacturer (Walter Titex).

Walter is a big German tooling manufacturer. About 6 months ago I purchased (for work) a half dozen coolant through Walter solid carbide drills for a high production job. When I received them from the distributor all the little boxes had made in China one them. Walter, like most large companies, has set up a manufacturing facility in China. It is Walter operated, that is they aren't contracting out the work to a third party.

The drills preformed exactly the same as the German ones they replaced, and was up to my expectations for the product - so I couldn't really fault the product based on where it was made.

That said I was very puzzled as to what the savings (if any) there would be to manufacture in China. Most high volume tool making facilities are highly automated. Since both drills performed almost identical that leads me to believe the process used to manufacture them is copied. The machines used not doubt would be imported from Germany. When Walter was setting up its new plant in China I would suspect that the process used would be near identical to the one used in Germany.

So what would be the savings to setting up in China? The process is almost entirely automated so there is very little labour savings. And one would think there would be enough internal Chinese demand to support the factory - so why ship across the world? There is also the fact that made in China in the manufacturing world in North America could be very harmful to their quality brand (think of all the hate on a certain forum for such shop equipment).

My hypothesis is the price of carbide is subsidized by the Chinese (they have a significant amount of reserves), environmental compliance is far easier, and employee well being (think pension etc) is lower if you operate in China .... but the price on the drill didn't change :rolleyes:.

J Tiers
08-31-2016, 09:51 AM
or its a Guhring owned and managed plant. While that still creates business challenges, its a world of difference to simply outsourcing there.

I'm counting that as "controlled".

The Germans have a long standing relation with the chinese, and likely can do better than the "lowest cost, please" stupid american businesses.

There are issues in china with "owning". Nobody can "own" land, although the buildings, equipment etc can be "owned". I believe there are still restrictions on non-chinese owning even the buildings and equipment. Not sure how that applies to corporations...... Corporations are "people with rights" in the US, but the chinese may be smarter about that.

it at least used to be that a chinese national had to own the controlling interest.

Mcgyver
08-31-2016, 11:38 AM
owning land/buildings is irrelevant, ie most industrial and commercial real estate in north america is leased, mostly its a financial decision. I would say 80%+ by sq ft is leased. Where it gets strategic is when value of the real estate is dwarfed by the capital improvements - ie a steel mill. The rules preventing foreigners 100% owning a business in China are long gone

J Tiers
08-31-2016, 03:52 PM
owning land/buildings is irrelevant, ie most industrial and commercial real estate in north america is leased, mostly its a financial decision. I would say 80%+ by sq ft is leased. Where it gets strategic is when value of the real estate is dwarfed by the capital improvements - ie a steel mill. The rules preventing foreigners 100% owning a business in China are long gone

My information on the ownership aside from land is 10+ years old now.

The land ownership issue is somewhat more problematic specifically in china, because there is still rampant corruption, and the local officials, who control land use, have the ability to cancel the land use permit, and have done so, if land in the area is more valuable and desirable than it used to be. Something like the US "Eminent Domain" doctrine, but considerably more capricious and arbitrary.. Curable by the right sort of bribery in many cases, but apparently not all, if my sources who are responsible for factories in china are to be believed. Depends who wants the land.

You may recall that when the poison toothpaste scandal hit some years ago, investigators tracing the product finally found out where the factory was, but when they got there, nothing existed, it was a newly cleared lot.... the land use permit had been cancelled and the building demolished.

Juergenwt
08-31-2016, 05:24 PM
China does what it needs to do. If you want to sell in China you will have to make some of your product there. No different from most other countries.

J Tiers
08-31-2016, 05:42 PM
China does what it needs to do. If you want to sell in China you will have to make some of your product there. No different from most other countries.

??????????

We were discussing product made in china and exported to the US and elsewhere.....

As for selling in china, we sold millions of dollars worth of our US made product in china. What stopped us was the chinese copies of our product. Very good copies, reproducing even the company logo/symbol marks of the US PC board maker. It could have been rather hard to prove in court that we had not made the products.

When those copies became widespread, sales in china, and across asia dried up in 4 months or so.

There were no laws involved.