PDA

View Full Version : Protecting from rust



Steven57
11-11-2016, 08:36 AM
I've made a few tools for my lathe/mill so far using mild steel. Unfortunately, I can go weeks between projects. Other than keeping the tools (angle plates, 123, DTI mounting rods) oiled is there a better way?
I don't mean paint as I want the bare metal finish.

SteveF
11-11-2016, 09:05 AM
Get a gallon of LPS3 and coat those things with it. Easy to wipe off and your tools won't rust from sitting.

BTW - Put in your location. Answers to this question will be better if we know if you are in Phoenix or Tampa.

Steve

enginuity
11-11-2016, 10:07 AM
I found rusting tools has a lot to do with your skin chemistry. When I touch metal tools and let them sit they tend to rust unless I lightly oil them. Some people don't have this problem. I have watch backs that corrode due to my skin.

Moisture is the big problem. If you can wipe your tools down and place them in a bag with desiccant they will be fine. I'd probably go this route if you don't want to oil them. If you need to wear gloves so you don't leave residue on them as you bag them up.

Steven57
11-11-2016, 10:18 AM
I'm in Southern MD.
It's not that I don't want to oil. It's wondering if there is a better way.
Thanks for the inputs!

wdtom44
11-11-2016, 11:06 AM
I am in Rhode Island and it can get humid in the summer. My shop is in the basement, (walk out with garage door). I used to keep two of the basement windows open in the summer with insect screens on them. I had a big rust problem. Started keeping the windows closed and only opened the door when something had to come in or out. Now I have almost no rust problem. I think the warm humid air constantly coming in would condense on the cool iron and rust. Now mostly the oil form just using the machines from time to time is enough. I spray silicone on the tables of wood working tools which seems to do it and doesn't leave oil on the wood, makes the wood slide easier too. I am sure my system wouldn't work for everyone but it is working for me. Conditions would be different for all of us.

6PTsocket
11-11-2016, 11:15 AM
I have had good results with Boeshild. It is an aerosol with ailcents dispersing a wax coating. For storage you can leave it on heavy and for working tools, after it drys, you wipe it down and it leaves very protective film. I use it on machined tables like my drill press, jointer and band saw. It kasts a long time, is self healing and easily removed.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Baz
11-11-2016, 01:08 PM
In a woodwork shop use beeswax. Not often reported to cause allergies so everything you touch will not contaminate your hands and you can dunk your biscuits with no oily film on your coffee. Silicone in any form is best avoided owing to its habit of contaminating surface you want to paint.
For metal a clear car underbody sealant like Waxoyle, diluted, can be used to leave a waxy film suitable for many surfaces and I find it less unpleasant to handle than oils and greases.

Andre3127
11-11-2016, 01:51 PM
Paste wax. I swear by it.

I plan to do some condensation tests to prove its rust protection soon, when I have the time and a few different oils to test.

RWO
11-11-2016, 02:15 PM
Air conditioning. I swear by it. Got to have it in Texas. Dehumidifier might be sufficient in cooler climates.

RWO

BCRider
11-11-2016, 02:24 PM
I've never used anything other than whatever motor oil I happen to have open to supply the bikes or cars. And shop made tools and other items that are well over 20 years old are still bright and silvery looking. So just a light coat of common lubricating oil CAN be enough.

You'll pretty quickly realize if it is or not just by how other items in your shop rust or stay clean. For example the dry saw cut surfaces of scraps from my metal bandsaw stay bight and shiny for weeks in the scrap bucket. if you live in an area where your shop conditions are such that a similar bare steel surface would become dull and reddish in only a few days then I can see that there might be a case for something more capable than simple regular lubricating oil. But that's not the case in my situation so I've never felt any need for anything more protective than a coating of oil which I then wipe mostly off so there's only a light film remaining.

In the wood shop a can of Johnson's paste wax is never far from arm's reach to use on the metal tables of the various tools. And it does a pretty good job as well. And won't stain the wood. I've gotten some beeswax recently and I may try that as well. But it's mostly intended to be converted to a bullet lube.

Juiceclone
11-11-2016, 03:20 PM
Ok .. a little strange, but I have found an oil based wood stain will protect ferrous metals pretty good. I guess because it was formulated to penetrate wood, it sinks into the pores in metal and dries very thin. Good on outdoor stored tools for about a year. Never tried as u intend though.

Seastar
11-11-2016, 03:39 PM
Air conditioning. I swear by it. Got to have it in Texas. Dehumidifier might be sufficient in cooler climates.

RWO
+1 for this.
I stopped the rust in my shop by buying two dehumidifiers.
I run them year round.
Bill

BCRider
11-11-2016, 04:28 PM
Ok .. a little strange, but I have found an oil based wood stain will protect ferrous metals pretty good. I guess because it was formulated to penetrate wood, it sinks into the pores in metal and dries very thin. Good on outdoor stored tools for about a year. Never tried as u intend though.

I do much the same as this. But not with "stains" that have a pigment in them. For some years now I treat my shovels and other garden tools with a 50-50 mix of mineral spirits and boiled linseed oil. After cleaning and a quick drying I rub it on from a cheap brush left in the tin that holds the mixture. I don't know about soaking down into pores in the metal but it does do a nice job of not running off the metal because it cures to a thin protective varnish like film instead of running off and allowing the tools to rust while sitting in the harsh conditions of the garden shed.

Because it's an oil finish which dries to a film I would not want to use the same stuff or that pigmented stain on items in the shop I handle frequently.

It's also something I use because I have it around all the time. Boiled linseed oil is a favorite finish for many of my wood working projects. And I keep mineral spirits around as a common solvent for many uses. So mixing up a batch when needed to keep the garden tools in good condition isn't a big stretch. And if I had any left over fence finish oil stain I'd likely use it as well since it's much the same ingredients but with some added pigment.

SteveF
11-11-2016, 07:12 PM
Not even when I'm taking my pain meds with a glass of wine can I imagine painting my angle plates, 123 blocks, DTI rods or other precision tools with an oil based stain or linseed oil.

Steve

Arcane
11-11-2016, 07:29 PM
My favourite go-to for a rust preventative is Rust Check. It's a light oil based rust preventative that has a creeping agent and anti rust additives.

BCRider
11-11-2016, 07:38 PM
My favourite go-to for a rust preventative is Rust Check. It's a light oil based rust preventative that has a creeping agent and anti rust additives.

Lots of folks swear by Fluid Film as well for the same reasons.

Swarfer
11-11-2016, 08:23 PM
Lanolin/wool fat/wool grease

Hydrocarbon soluble, used in all kinds of industrial products for its anti-corrosion, lubrication, and water-repelling properties.

Medical grade is available from pharmacy/drug stores (and Walmart). It is called Anhydrous Lanolin USP in the United States.

Cheaper, unrefined "technical grade" stuff is simply called wool grease. You would probably need to get that directly from a supplier, and in bulk. Medical grade is already fairly cheap though.

Millions of years of evolution is hard to beat. It is fantastic for your skin too. I have to use it for medical reasons, so I love that I can also coat my tools with it.

lakeside53
11-11-2016, 09:33 PM
CRC 3-36. Buy it in gallons and put on squirt bottles rather than overpriced spray cans. Very light and not sticky. I've used LPS3 and Boeshield but both of these are thicker and over time LPS-3 will get sticky and harder to get off. 3-36 you don't have to remove. I have a HR bench top going on 4 years now.. no rust. Tools - I just squirt them as they sit in the drawer. Castings - immediately after electrolysis I squirt them.. no flash or long term rust.

Lew Hartswick
11-11-2016, 09:40 PM
it sinks into the pores in metal .
:-) Have you ever seen any "pores" in metal, other than maybe cast iron ? Even with an SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) ?
...lew...

Evan
11-11-2016, 11:14 PM
Maybe not "pores" but microcracks certainly exist in anything that has been bent or "wrought" or otherwise formed to shape including rolling of any kind.

Here is a good example of cold rolled stainless steel at a magnification of 2000 times:

SS corrodes just fine in salt water, from my personal experience working with metal here in the past. It is the microcracks that greatly enhance the corrosion.

http://ixian.ca/pics12/microcrack.jpg

Oil of just about any kind other than vegetable oils are the best way to prevent corrosion without painting or other semi permanent coating.

CarlByrns
11-11-2016, 11:32 PM
Depends on the surface. The woodworking tools get carnauba wax- it stays put and won't stain the work. Most everything in the metal shop gets a light coating of Break Free which cures to a cosmoline-like finish, but wipes right off with mineral spirits. Great stuff.

BCRider
11-11-2016, 11:52 PM
I've never gone with that "porosity" idea either. But there's no doubt that the surface finish plays a BIG part in how well a surface can hold oil in regards to corrosion protection. I've seem more than one source that says it's harder to maintain a mirror like polished finish than one with a more satin sheen just because of the ease of how an oil film can be wiped off the mirror finish.

Bluing, black oxide and parkerizing of some items such as firearms and some of our tooling is done not because the finish itself is corrosion resistant but because these treatments have a better ability to hold a film of oil than raw steel surfaces.

Optics Curmudgeon
11-11-2016, 11:56 PM
I agree with all of the above, with one addition. If you use any chlorinated solvents in the shop you are likely to have a problem with rust, regardless of your efforts to control it. These solvents penetrate most barriers like oil or wax, and decompose to chlorine. The result is rust.
My favorite heavy duty corrosion control agent is ACF-50, once only available from aviation outlets but now widely avaliable.

Steven57
11-12-2016, 12:26 AM
CRC 3-36. Buy it in gallons and put on squirt bottles rather than overpriced spray cans. Very light and not sticky. I've used LPS3 and Boeshield but both of these are thicker and over time LPS-3 will get sticky and harder to get off. 3-36 you don't have to remove. I have a HR bench top going on 4 years now.. no rust. Tools - I just squirt them as they sit in the drawer. Castings - immediately after electrolysis I squirt them.. no flash or long term rust.



I have Boeshield T9 and Johnson wax and Renaissance wax and have used for woodworking tools. Tablesaw, Bandsaw tables, etc.

I've used CRC products before and am going to give 3-36 a shot. It's definitely cheaper than LPS3.

Thanks for all the inputs!

Dan_the_Chemist
11-12-2016, 12:45 AM
Unheated shop in SE Ohio. I have a couple of old refrigerators* that I use as storage. I keep my sensitive tools and an open tray of desiccant in them to protect the tools. I also have some humidity gauges, and when the RH starts to go up I recharge the desiccant.

(* not actually refrigerators - old lab incubators that have been repurposed, but they are insulated like refrigerators and have a sealing door)

flylo
11-12-2016, 12:51 AM
for about $225/shipped you can get a 5 gal can of Kroil with silicone that when the Kroils gone the film of silicone is left to protect. For instraments I use 200 ml Renaissance wax about $17 on Amazon but lasts forever. Used to use linseed oil in rebuilding pre '40s taildraggers in the lower longerons & in all the tubes on old floatplanes but I wouldn't put it on tooling or machines.

I'm going to try Fresh Step cat litter as it's a cheap Silica Gel desiccant, 8# $8
Description
Fresh Step Crystals quickly absorb moisture and stop odor 5X better than the leading clay litter. The blue crystals are also extremely lightweight and gentle on your cat's paws. With great odor control and moisture absorption, crystals are purrfect for those looking for easy litter maintenance.

Key Benefits
With great odor control and moisture absorption, crystals are purrfect for those looking for easy litter maintenance.
Crystals quickly stop odor 5X better than the leading clay litter
The blue crystals are also extremely lightweight and gentle on your cat's paws.
Breakthrough technology with small crystals minimize dust and make scooping easy
Lightweight crystals make transport and box changing a breeze which will make you and your furry friend happy as can be!

Video Man
11-12-2016, 12:57 AM
Probably more trouble than most need to go to, but I live a quarter-mile from the beach with 4000 miles of salt air blowing over my house, and everything rusts in a moment. I came into a stash of beeswax, which I melt together with way oil (which has a tackifier to make it stick) and then thin that to a paint consistency. I paint all my raw-steel items with this, remove it for use with mineral spirits or WD40, use the tool, then (because I also have fingerprints that would corrode Kriptonite) wipe down with WD40 to remove any such, and re-paint. It is, frankly, a pain. But my collets, chucks, ways and other bits and doodles have sat in this environment for nearly 20 years and are pristine. Extreme, but for those in coastal, rainy, areas, maybe the germ of an idea.

Kiwi
11-12-2016, 07:45 AM
I use a CRC product called Lanocote for the same reason you do however I wipe it with a rag before use but it is ok on the hands most of my tools such as the dividing head are in wooden boxes that have been raw linseed oiled

Seastar
11-12-2016, 09:16 AM
Probably more trouble than most need to go to, but I live a quarter-mile from the beach with 4000 miles of salt air blowing over my house, and everything rusts in a moment. I came into a stash of beeswax, which I melt together with way oil (which has a tackifier to make it stick) and then thin that to a paint consistency. I paint all my raw-steel items with this, remove it for use with mineral spirits or WD40, use the tool, then (because I also have fingerprints that would corrode Kriptonite) wipe down with WD40 to remove any such, and re-paint. It is, frankly, a pain. But my collets, chucks, ways and other bits and doodles have sat in this environment for nearly 20 years and are pristine. Extreme, but for those in coastal, rainy, areas, maybe the germ of an idea.

Same here, I am on a channel off of the ocean. My boat is on a dock behind my house.
Keeping the hand tools we carry on board for emergencies from rusting is almost impossible.
We spray them with Boeshield and that makes them useable for about 2 years.
I buy cheap hand tools (read HF) and throw them away when the rust gets too bad.
The cheap hand tools last as long as expensive ones and they work OK.
The dehumidifiers I posted about earlier are in my place in Indiana. Dehumidifiers or air conditioning dosent do any good close to the ocean with its salt environment. Coatings like Boeshield does help.
Bill

Evan
11-12-2016, 01:28 PM
This reminds me that I must go coat my SB9 which is in storage right now. It was pretty oily when I put it in but I am now only a few hundred meters from salt water. My storage is inside but not heated. Fortunately this is not a humid climate. Humidity right now is only 65%. Good time for this thread.

Alistair Hosie
11-12-2016, 05:57 PM
Not exactly answering your question. However I would love to tell you if you have rust already even severe variety place the object in white vinegar and add some salt a good handful or two ( I bring mine almost to the boil before pouring over the rusty part ) leave in a closed lid vessel overnight. Then remove and rub vigorously with a modern metal pot scourer. It works great you can forget battery chargers etc. Alistair p s let us know how you get on guys

Rex
11-13-2016, 07:35 PM
+1 on lanolin. After a couple of times walking into my remote unheated shop and finding rust scabs on my pristine mill tables, I bought a pound of lanolin a few years ago and no rust since.

I also do several other things:

ceiling fan on high to keep air circulating while I am gone
Run the AC to drop the humidity
Use a dehumidifier occasionally if its cold and damp

And to remove rust nothing holds a candle to Evaporust

Puckdropper
11-13-2016, 09:27 PM
Not exactly answering your question. However I would love to tell you if you have rust already even severe variety place the object in white vinegar and add some salt a good handful or two ( I bring mine almost to the boil before pouring over the rusty part ) leave in a closed lid vessel overnight. Then remove and rub vigorously with a modern metal pot scourer. It works great you can forget battery chargers etc. Alistair p s let us know how you get on guys

I was using the pot scrubber type pad last night for rust removal. I liked how it took off most of the foreign stuff like rust and dirt but left the surface pretty close to how it was. For something like cleaning my Radio Alarm Saw, it was great. The big bearing surfaces like for the carriage tilt could be derusted without affecting the surface too much so I didn't lose any accuracy.

Mister ED
11-13-2016, 10:56 PM
Another vote for Fluid Film (which is lanolin based). I have it in spray cans and also gallon cans.

Swarfer
11-14-2016, 09:12 AM
One other great thing about lanolin I forgot - it is an electrical insulator, so protects against galvanic corrosion.

Evan
11-15-2016, 05:31 PM
A warning! I was wondering about lanolin so I looked it up. Unlike petroleum oils lanolin will spontaneously combust if you leave rags that are at all contaminated with lanolin lying around anywhere.

These materials are on the list:

Materials subject to spontaneous heating are listed below:

Alfalfa meal
Animal hides
Castor oil
Charcoal
Coal
Cottonseed oil
Fertilizers
Fish meal
Fish oil
Lanolin
Lard oil
Linseed oil
Manure
Metal powders
Olive oil
Peanut oil
Powdered eggs
Soybean oil
Used burlap
Whale oil

http://www.firehouse.com/article/10528863/the-phenomenon-of-spontaneous-combustion

Swarfer
11-15-2016, 07:45 PM
I wonder what the conditions required for spontaneous combustion are? Does that mean everyone wearing a wool jumper is at risk of sudden immolation? :)

Women also have this stuff all over themselves and their clothes. It is a common ingredient of beauty products.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention though. I won't stop using it (and most people don't even realise they use it), but I will look into it.

Evan
11-15-2016, 07:53 PM
Don't leave any rags in a pile or bucket if they have lanolin in them. It might be worth doing a little experiment in the summer time OUTSIDE to see what might happen. Stick a roasting thermometer in the pile to monitor it. If the conditions are just right it is possible for heat to build very quickly. What is "just right"? No clue, that's what experiments are for.

One thing is certain. Plenty of fires begin this way.

Swarfer
11-15-2016, 08:07 PM
Shouldn't be too long till we are 35 degree celsius days here, and I can run some tests.

I only use a tiny rag for oiling, about 2 inches square, so at least I am minimising fuel.

I also usually thin it with medical grade mineral oil, which would probably affect its combustion properties.

J Tiers
11-15-2016, 09:52 PM
Any material with double bonds that can crosslink is potentially a problem. Typically, the double bond will release energy when it crosslinks, i.e. one of the two breaks and links to something else, typically another molecule in the case of crosslinking. If the released energy is more than it takes to break one part of the double bonds, then it will heat up as it reacts. When the materials are heated, they react faster, and heat up more.

If they are insulated, as for instance the rag is wadded up, then the inner part can get very hot and may reach ignition temperature.

Oil paint based on linseed oil, or any other coating type that will "dry", or harden up, is a threat. That also includes most vegetable oils, and many animal oils/fats. Not all are as bad as paint type processed linseed oils, but any of them has the capability to do it.

Petroleum oils generally do not have any double bonds, and are not a threat in that way, they are just flammable.

Swarfer
11-15-2016, 10:06 PM
Thank J (and Evan), much appreciated